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Thread: Revelation 9 7-10 hypothesis

  1. #16
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    Re: Revelation 9 7-10 hypothesis

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    The difficulty is only present if you equate the locusts in Joel with the locusts in Rev. 9:7-10. They could be different locusts. Note that they do very different things. The locusts in Joel destroy all the greenery. These locusts don't destroy the greenery.

    Joel 2:3 WEB A fire devours before them,
    and behind them, a flame burns.
    The land is as the garden of Eden before them,
    and behind them, a desolate wilderness.
    Yes, and no one has escaped them.


    Revelation 9:4 WEB They were told that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only those people who don’t have God’s seal on their foreheads.
    It is pretty clear the locusts in Revelation are NOT attack helicopters. How would an attack helicopter KNOW if someone has the seal of God on their forehead.
    Further these locusts can't kill only harm.

  2. #17
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    Re: Revelation 9 7-10 hypothesis

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    The difficulty is only present if you equate the locusts in Joel with the locusts in Rev. 9:7-10. They could be different locusts. Note that they do very different things. The locusts in Joel destroy all the greenery. These locusts don't destroy the greenery.

    Joel 2:3 WEB A fire devours before them,
    and behind them, a flame burns.
    The land is as the garden of Eden before them,
    and behind them, a desolate wilderness.
    Yes, and no one has escaped them.


    Revelation 9:4 WEB They were told that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only those people who donít have Godís seal on their foreheads.
    I totally agree. Joel spoke of a literal locust plague that brought divine judgment to Israel thousands of years ago. They are depicted as if they are a human army, but I believe they were actual locusts. It was a devastating judgment!

    The locust plague in Revelation clearly takes place in a different time, and is not depicted as an actual locust plague. I believe it represents either a human army or a demonic army, or both. It's something that takes place in the last few years of the age. I'm not even sure where it takes place? This has been a real difficult one for me!

  3. #18
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    Re: Revelation 9 7-10 hypothesis

    Understanding what happens here with the 5th trumpet is made simple when you grasp the bigger picture. The seals & trumpets are judgments upon Jerusalem and Israel. The seals are primarily directed at the people occupying the (kingdom) land. And the trumpets are directed at purging the land from uncleaness, all peoples included. We see the use of blood as a purging instrument in the 1st two trumpets and an indirect allusion to blood in the waters (like an Egyptian plague) of the 3rd trumpet, and in the sky, with the moon turning blood red, of the 4th trumpet. But Zechariah shows us that the trumpets/ horns serve to rid the land of its inhabitants:

    *[[Zec 1:19]] KJV* And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.

    A further parallel (in the 5th trumpet) is found when the children of Israel were being prepared to enter the promised land by sending hornets to drive out the enemy:

    *[[Exo 23:27]] KJV* I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee. [28] And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.

    A final purging is found in the judgment of the 6th trumpet for those who would not leave at the behest of torment. By the time the 7th trumpet sounds, the land has been made ready for the children of Israel:

    *[[Zec 2:9]] KJV* For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me. [10] Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. [11] And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. [12] And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. [13] Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.

    *[[Rev 11:15]] KJV* And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    Blessings
    The PuP

  4. #19

    Re: Revelation 9 7-10 hypothesis


  5. #20
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    Re: Revelation 9 7-10 hypothesis

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It is pretty clear the locusts in Revelation are NOT attack helicopters. How would an attack helicopter KNOW if someone has the seal of God on their forehead.
    Further these locusts can't kill only harm.
    The land of the beast will largely be devoid of Christians. Israel, Syria, Iraq. Any attack helicopters in that region will basically be targetting non-Christians. Not saying it is attack helicopters, but I am open to the possibility.

  6. #21
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    Re: Revelation 9 7-10 hypothesis

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The land of the beast will largely be devoid of Christians. Israel, Syria, Iraq. Any attack helicopters in that region will basically be targetting non-Christians. Not saying it is attack helicopters, but I am open to the possibility.
    Attack helicopters KILL people. These locusts will not.
    Now perhaps you mean they are converted to crowd suppression helicopters...

    However there is also nothing which makes it restricted to Israel, Syria, Iraq.

  7. #22
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    Re: Revelation 9 7-10 hypothesis

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Understanding what happens here with the 5th trumpet is made simple when you grasp the bigger picture. The seals & trumpets are judgments upon Jerusalem and Israel.
    An interesting claim, but I don't see ANYTHING in revelation supporting that idea.
    Nor do you quotes from Zechariah require a tying into those seals or trumpets.

  8. #23

    Re: Revelation 9 7-10 hypothesis

    These are the 5,s But note the 6,s are first in the trib. First are Revelation 16:10 then Revelation 9:1 last in the series of these events are Revelation 6:9.
    Their planet will be destroyed as in the book of Ezekiel's states and invade this planet. The first shall be last and the last shall be first. The sevens are the end of days and truly are last the Sabbath begins then. Study in this manner and the truth will come to light.

  9. #24
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    Re: Revelation 9 7-10 hypothesis

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Understanding what happens here with the 5th trumpet is made simple when you grasp the bigger picture. The seals & trumpets are judgments upon Jerusalem and Israel. The seals are primarily directed at the people occupying the (kingdom) land. And the trumpets are directed at purging the land from uncleaness, all peoples included. We see the use of blood as a purging instrument in the 1st two trumpets and an indirect allusion to blood in the waters (like an Egyptian plague) of the 3rd trumpet, and in the sky, with the moon turning blood red, of the 4th trumpet. But Zechariah shows us that the trumpets/ horns serve to rid the land of its inhabitants:

    *[[Zec 1:19]] KJV* And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.

    A further parallel (in the 5th trumpet) is found when the children of Israel were being prepared to enter the promised land by sending hornets to drive out the enemy:

    *[[Exo 23:27]] KJV* I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee. [28] And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.

    A final purging is found in the judgment of the 6th trumpet for those who would not leave at the behest of torment. By the time the 7th trumpet sounds, the land has been made ready for the children of Israel:

    *[[Zec 2:9]] KJV* For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me. [10] Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. [11] And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. [12] And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. [13] Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.

    *[[Rev 11:15]] KJV* And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    Blessings
    The PuP
    I do believe that the *origin* of these plagues and judgments come from the OT, when Israel was in focus. But here, in the book of Revelation, I believe the whole world is in focus. The gospel has expanded the application of God's Kingdom beyond Israel, to include the whole earth. So I believe these judgments, as much as they sound like Israel, actually apply to the whole world. I could be wrong, but that's just what I think at this point. This is beyond the OT age and Israel, and involves the universal church.

  10. #25
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    Re: Revelation 9 7-10 hypothesis

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    An interesting claim, but I don't see ANYTHING in revelation supporting that idea.
    Nor do you quotes from Zechariah require a tying into those seals or trumpets.
    Zech 13:8,9, Eze 5 both tell us of the 2/3 of Israel that shall perish in and about the city(Jerusalem) and the land thereabouts. Eze 5 & 7 compliment each other to tell us that half of this 2/3, one third, perishes outside/roundabout the city, from the sword, and that the other third perishes due to famine and pestilence near/within the city. I.e., this third never leaves but dies within. Rev 9:20-21, effectually after the 6th trumpet "third of men" having perished, states that those remaining do not repent of their sins/ iniquities. This is the third that does not leave Jerusalem(not cut off from the city) and will die of famine/ pestilence within the city. This is further complimented by Eze 4 by the 390 day siege [1hr,day, month&year] to be followed by 40 days of famine upon Judah. This one third that does not flee nor repent, will die of the ensuing 40 days of famine within the city. The 4 judgments of beats, sword, famine and pestilence found in the 2/3 that perish in Eze 5 is clearly iterated in v.17:

    *[[Eze 5:17]] KJV* So will I send upon you FAMINE and evil BEASTS, and they shall bereave thee; and PESTILENCE and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the SWORD upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.

    ARE reiterated in the 4 sore judgments upon Jerusalem found in Eze 14:12ff and the first 4 seals of Rev 6:

    *[[Rev 6:8]] KJV* And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to KILL with SWORD, and with HUNGER, and with DEATH, and with the BEASTS of the earth.

    The one minor difference is that Rev 6 uses "death" I in that place of pestilence. But when you read it in context, "to kill with... death", as well as with the sword, hunger and beasts, that it means more than just dying(being killed).

    Blessings
    The PuP

  11. #26
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    Re: Revelation 9 7-10 hypothesis

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Zech 13:8,9, Eze 5 both tell us of the 2/3 of Israel that shall perish in and about the city(Jerusalem) and the land thereabouts. Eze 5 & 7 compliment each other to tell us that half of this 2/3, one third, perishes outside/roundabout the city, from the sword, and that the other third perishes due to famine and pestilence near/within the city. I.e., this third never leaves but dies within. Rev 9:20-21, effectually after the 6th trumpet "third of men" having perished, states that those remaining do not repent of their sins/ iniquities. This is the third that does not leave Jerusalem(not cut off from the city) and will die of famine/ pestilence within the city. This is further complimented by Eze 4 by the 390 day siege [1hr,day, month&year] to be followed by 40 days of famine upon Judah. This one third that does not flee nor repent, will die of the ensuing 40 days of famine within the city. The 4 judgments of beats, sword, famine and pestilence found in the 2/3 that perish in Eze 5 is clearly iterated in v.17:

    *[[Eze 5:17]] KJV* So will I send upon you FAMINE and evil BEASTS, and they shall bereave thee; and PESTILENCE and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the SWORD upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.

    ARE reiterated in the 4 sore judgments upon Jerusalem found in Eze 14:12ff and the first 4 seals of Rev 6:

    *[[Rev 6:8]] KJV* And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to KILL with SWORD, and with HUNGER, and with DEATH, and with the BEASTS of the earth.

    The one minor difference is that Rev 6 uses "death" I in that place of pestilence. But when you read it in context, "to kill with... death", as well as with the sword, hunger and beasts, that it means more than just dying(being killed).

    Blessings
    The PuP
    Ezekiel 5 happened a long time ago and is not the same as Zech 13. Also Zech 13 is for the whole land whilst Ezekiel 5 is about Jerusalem and its fall.
    Rev 9 isn't about the land of Israel but it states mankind. Also it is only a third killed, not a third who remains. So different groups of people. It makes no mention of there being a third left. It is about PEOPLE who do not repent and NOT about Jews.
    Ezekiel 4 happened a long time ago.

    As to the same type of symbology, yes - and? All it means is that as God did something as He said He would, so we can understand for what He prophesies in another place and another time.

    As for Rev 6 it doesn't state they WILL be, simply that power was given over 1/4, not that it was fully exercised.

  12. #27
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    Re: Revelation 9 7-10 hypothesis

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The land of the beast will largely be devoid of Christians. Israel, Syria, Iraq. Any attack helicopters in that region will basically be targetting non-Christians. Not saying it is attack helicopters, but I am open to the possibility.
    According to Rev 13:7 the land of the Beast will not be limited to Israel, Syria and Iraq.

  13. #28
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    Re: Revelation 9 7-10 hypothesis

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Ezekiel 5 happened a long time ago and is not the same as Zech 13. Also Zech 13 is for the whole land whilst Ezekiel 5 is about Jerusalem and its fall.
    Rev 9 isn't about the land of Israel but it states mankind. Also it is only a third killed, not a third who remains. So different groups of people. It makes no mention of there being a third left. It is about PEOPLE who do not repent and NOT about Jews.
    Ezekiel 4 happened a long time ago.

    As to the same type of symbology, yes - and? All it means is that as God did something as He said He would, so we can understand for what He prophesies in another place and another time.

    As for Rev 6 it doesn't state they WILL be, simply that power was given over 1/4, not that it was fully exercised.
    Exe 5 says differently:

    *[[Eze 5:9]] KJV* And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.

    Simply put. Nothing will compare to it.

    Only one third killed? Clearly wrong:

    *[[Eze 5:12]] KJV* A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.
    *[[Zec 13:8]] KJV* And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

    Eze 5,6,&7 are three examples of the judgments of the sword, famine, and pestilence upon Jerusalem that appear to be the same, but it is only an astute eye that sees the difference. Chapters 5 & 7 are the sand and chapter 6 is clearly different. The location of the judgments are unequivocally different. Ch. 7 also tells us that it, is equal to Eze 5:9 when it says this:

    *[[Eze 7:19]] KJV* They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the DAY OF THE WRATH OF THE LORD: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.

    I made no comment about the "fourth part of the earth" , but whether it's referring to numbers of people or geographic area has no bearing on whether the focus is on Israel or not.

    Blessings
    The PuP

  14. #29

    Re: Revelation 9 7-10 hypothesis

    Quote Originally Posted by Cherubim1 View Post
    I have too heard this interpretation, however my issue is the bible makes the forces seem more as spiritual forces rather than only man made ones.

    According to revelation during these times many wonders will be preformed for the Antichrist to deceive many so I still feel as if some form of physical demonic activity will be present.
    Revelation 9:1 talks about a star that falls from heaven. Revelation 9:11 talks about the angel of the bottomless pit. That could bring demonic imagery.

    Revelation 9:1 KJV And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. ...
    10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
    11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.


    But suppose we equate the bottomless pit with oil wells. The king is Saddam Hussein (Saddam's name means "one who confronts" according to Wikipedia. Great source, don't you think? Abaddon and Apollyon means "destroyer", which is remotely similar). He is the king of the "men".

    The first 4 trumpets did not explicitly mention demonic activity. But even when not explicitly stated, the Gulf War could have involved demonic activity, just as demons have been active throughout history.

  15. #30

    Re: Revelation 9 7-10 hypothesis

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It is pretty clear the locusts in Revelation are NOT attack helicopters. How would an attack helicopter KNOW if someone has the seal of God on their forehead.
    Further these locusts can't kill only harm.
    The helicopters could have pilots that can identify targets.

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