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Thread: Don't you need to be resurrected prior returning with Christ?

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    Don't you need to be resurrected prior returning with Christ?

    The current belief is that all believers come back with Christ as his army in the 2nd coming. But how can that be IF one needs to be resurrected prior to this return. The main resurrection does not occur until after the 2nd coming. As for events are as follows....

    2nd coming-------> Resurrection

    Then you might say then who is able to come back then with him? Answer, the firstfruits, 144,000 dead resurrected. The first of the harvest, before the main harvest.

    Firstfruits----------> 2nd coming---------> Resurrection (main harvest)

    Who are these firstfruits? The 144,000.

    Rev 14
    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    And they follow him wherever the lamb goes. Thus when he comes back to earth 2nd coming they follow.

    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    Now there is a difference when speaking of the 2nd coming and then the return of a NHNE. The 2nd coming is with 10,0000s of the his saints the NHNE is with all his saints.

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    Re: Don't you need to be resurrected prior returning with Christ?

    There is no requirement for resurrection, but there is a requirement to be changed.

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    Re: Don't you need to be resurrected prior returning with Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    There is no requirement for resurrection, but there is a requirement to be changed.
    How is one changed?

    What is one changed from to change to?

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    Re: Don't you need to be resurrected prior returning with Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    How is one changed?

    What is one changed from to change to?
    As no humans will Return with Jesus, the question is invalid.
    Matthew 16:27 and Matthew 25:31.....His angels with Him.

    The only time humans will experience the change into immortal bodies, is at the Great White Throne Judgement. After the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

    There has been and will again be a return to life of some people, as God wills it. The widows boy with Elijah, Lazarus and the young girl by Jesus, then at His Return; He will bring the souls of those killed by the AC, back to life. But they, like everyone who has ever lived, await the opening of the Book of Life before receiving immortality. Even Daniel12:13 'sleeps' until then.

    1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is plainly a prophecy about that time. Proved by how it is only then there is Victory over Death; I Cor 15:54b-55 - Revelation 21:4

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    Re: Don't you need to be resurrected prior returning with Christ?

    I guess you're so far removed from the way I think about this that I have a hard time understanding the question. It's my view that the 2nd Coming takes place along with the return of the saints with Christ. The need is for an instantaneous change of Christians still living at that time into the image of the glorious Christ. We must go from mortal to immortal. In that way we may return with Christ to declare victory over the earth and to establish Christ's Kingdom on earth.

    Those saints who had died in the past will most certainly have to be resurrected, as well as glorified with the rest of the saints, so that they also may return with Christ to declare victory and to establish the Kingdom. All this takes place in a split second, as Christ begins to return from heaven to take up his Kingdom on the earth.

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    Re: Don't you need to be resurrected prior returning with Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The current belief is that all believers come back with Christ as his army in the 2nd coming. But how can that be IF one needs to be resurrected prior to this return. The main resurrection does not occur until after the 2nd coming. As for events are as follows....

    2nd coming-------> Resurrection

    Then you might say then who is able to come back then with him? Answer, the firstfruits, 144,000 dead resurrected. The first of the harvest, before the main harvest.

    Firstfruits----------> 2nd coming---------> Resurrection (main harvest)

    Who are these firstfruits? The 144,000.

    Rev 14
    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    And they follow him wherever the lamb goes. Thus when he comes back to earth 2nd coming they follow.

    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    Now there is a difference when speaking of the 2nd coming and then the return of a NHNE. The 2nd coming is with 10,0000s of the his saints the NHNE is with all his saints.
    Your key statements are not accompanied by scripture. But I would like to state categorically that the Lord will return WITH His believers. WE have three scripture where the language is unmistakable and plain:
    1. Zechariah 14:5; "And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee."
    2. 1st Thessalonians 4:14; "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
    3. Jude 1:14; "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,"

    The dilemma for some seems to be be; HOW? The problem is as follows. At death a man is torn apart. His BODY goes to the dust on the surface of the earth, his SPIRIT returns to God Who gave it (Eccl.3:21, 12:7) and his SOUL languishes in Hades in the heart of the earth. And the LIVING are on the surface of the earth. So HOW do we get ALL believers who ever lived into a position IN THE AIR in order to return WITH Christ Who comes from heaven (Act.1:11; Phil.3:20)?

    The DEAD in Christ.
    For a dead man to do anything he must be resurrected. And on this matter there is much said. 1st Corinthians Chapter 15 is comprehensive. It outlines HOW, WHEN and IN WHAT BODY a man is resurrected. But since man is made OF the earth, and a dead man has been reduced TO THE EARTH, and a dead man's SOUL is UNDER THE EARTH, resurrection just places him among the living ON THE EARTH - just like our Lord Jesus. After three days and nights UNDER the earth He stands in the Garden of His sepulcher and says to the women that He had not yet "ASCENDED" to His Father (Jn.20:17). Resurrection gets a man his NEW BODY but does not put him in the AIR.

    The LIVING in Christ.
    Those alive when Christ starts His journey from the "above the highest heaven" to earth, have a massive problem. Their bodily composition of "FLESH AND BLOOD" is UNFIT for the Kingdom that our Lord is about to set up on earth (1st Cor.15:50). They need to be changed as they do not experience the resurrection. And so, in an eye-blink (4/100 of a second) they are changed. They have their new body, but are still on earth.

    Harpazo - Caught Away.
    In this matter of the the Christian at the end of the age, the Lord wants to achieve four things;
    1. He must furnish the dead with LIFE and make the sundered man whole again
    2. He must furnish the living with the same glorious bodies as the dead get in resurrection
    3. He must translate them all to stand in front of the Bema, a traveling Judgement Seat
    4. He must uphold that the Church is heavenly and that the new Kingdom which is to be set up is from Heaven

    Let us examine 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18;

    13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."


    verse 13. The reason for the 1st letter to the Church at Thessaloniki is revealed. Paul had taught them in his short stay in Acts 17 to expect the Lord from heaven and that the living would be Raptured to the air. Some of these saints had, in the mean time, died. The others thought that they would miss the Rapture because they were dead. They "sorrowed". Paul corrects them.
    verse 14. Based on the resurrection of Jesus, all the Church will be resurrected (1st Cor.15:22). The reason is given. Enoch has prophesied that the saints will come WITH the Lord as He touches down on earth. They MUST be in the air for a time to do this. And Paul assure the "sorrowful" that the dead saints will be there with the living and the Lord.
    Verse 15. Those who are alive at the coming of the Lord shall have NO advantage over the dead in Christ. "Pre-vent" in modern English means to stop something happening. But the Greek word rendered "prevent" (fethano) comes from the the words "pre" meaning "before" and "advent" meaning "to come". That is, the living will do NOTHING BEFORE THE DEAD.
    verse 16. How is this achieved? BY RAISING THE DEAD FIRST. A Trumpet is a call to gather. Gather where? ON THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH. No longer shall they languished "in the heart of the earth". They get new bodies, their spirits return from God and their souls RISE from Hades to be a "Whole man" again (1st Thess.5:23).
    verse 17. As the DEAD STAND on earth in resurrection, 1st Corinthians 15:51 takes place for the LIVING. They are "changed". And then TOGETHER with the resurrected, they are "caught away" ("Harpazo" means being "caught AWAY". Movement is given but not direction). The direction must come from the context. But here it is clear. Our Lord Jesus is in the air, in the clouds, so we may say "caught UP". Notice the grammar. We do not rise up into the air ourselves. "Caught up" implies that somebody else does it. Even our Lord Jesus does not defy gravity. He is "TAKEN up" (Act.1:11). The angels are the reapers and they catch us UP (Matt.13:39).
    verse 17. "... and so shall we ever be with the Lord." The operative word is "SO". "SO" means "in like manner". The phrase does not mean that we will be in the air forever. It does not mean that we will be in the physical presence of the Lord forever. It means "in THIS MANNER of a glorified resurrection body which is like Christs" (1st Jn.3:2). At the Bema - the Judgment Seat of Christ in the air, some Christians will be made co-kings with Christ. They will be kings over a city or cities (Lk.19:17-19). It will be impossible to be in the physical presence of Jesus if He dwells in Jerusalem and you are king of Santiago de Chile. And even more than this, some of the Lord's servants will be cast into "outer darkness" (Matt.22:13, 25:30).
    verse 18. "Comfort one another". Here we confirm verse 14. The Christians at Thessaloniki had "sorrowed", not because they faced the Great Tribulation, but because they thought that the dead saints would miss this wonderful event - the Rapture. Now they have the truth and are "comforted".

    Summary:
    • God has ordained that the Church, heavenly in nature and position, will arrive from the sky when our Lord returns to earth
    • To get them into the air needs a "catching UP"
    • Some are dead and some are alive with corrupted bodies. The dead RISE in their new bodies FIRST. The living are CHANGED.
    • TOGETHER they are caught up by the angels to the clouds and the air to be judged at Christ0s "Traveling Throne" (for He "travels" from above the highest heaven to the earth)
    • We should be "comforted" that death will not stop the Rapture from the surface of the earth to the air. Those UNDER the earth will RISE FIRST and then be caught away TOGETHER with the living.
    • In this manner Christ will return WITH His saints as predicted by Enoch and reported by Jude. (That is, we do not need the Book(s) of Enoch. Jude has reported this under inspiration.)

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    Re: Don't you need to be resurrected prior returning with Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    As no humans will Return with Jesus, the question is invalid.
    Who said humans? Immortal beings.

    The only time humans will experience the change into immortal bodies, is at the Great White Throne Judgement.
    Ok, let's say this is true, then how do non-immortal beings return with Christ?

    In what form then does his army return which is before the GWT?

    However needing to be immortal to return there is a change to immortality which occurs to a certain people before his return. IE firstfruits 144,000.

    Thus since the rest are not changed until after Christ returns thus they do not return until after the GWT upon a NHNE.

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    Re: Don't you need to be resurrected prior returning with Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It's my view that the 2nd Coming takes place along with the return of the saints with Christ.
    This is why the question. How can all believers (includes those of the church and the 144,000) return if they have not yet been resurrected? The main resurrection of the dead occurs AFTER Christ returns.

    Those saints who had died in the past will most certainly have to be resurrected, as well as glorified with the rest of the saints, so that they also may return with Christ to declare victory and to establish the Kingdom. All this takes place in a split second, as Christ begins to return from heaven to take up his Kingdom on the earth.
    Ok, now we are getting aligned. Yes one needs to be resurrected to return with Christ we agree. So you say the resurrection happens when Christ begins to return.

    So now the question is when are overcomers of the church resurrected upon or after the 2nd coming?

    1. So I guess these folks after his return will miss out, those on his right side which will inherit the kingdom?

    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    2. How about believers which are resurrected at the GWT which is after the 2nd coming? (above is the GWT note many do think that this judgement is only for unbelievers in error)

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    Re: Don't you need to be resurrected prior returning with Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    This is why the question. How can all believers (includes those of the church and the 144,000) return if they have not yet been resurrected? The main resurrection of the dead occurs AFTER Christ returns.



    Ok, now we are getting aligned. Yes one needs to be resurrected to return with Christ we agree. So you say the resurrection happens when Christ begins to return.

    So now the question is when are overcomers of the church resurrected upon or after the 2nd coming?

    1. So I guess these folks after his return will miss out, those on his right side which will inherit the kingdom?

    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    2. How about believers which are resurrected at the GWT which is after the 2nd coming? (above is the GWT note many do think that this judgement is only for unbelievers in error)
    I guess, brother, I just don't understand the problem? If the dead in Christ are raised, and the living still alive rise with them, as Christ begins to descend from heaven, why is there a problem? Dead go up and the living go up at the same time, in the twinkling of an eye. Christ then returns with his saints, all of us inheriting the Kingdom on earth together.

    The Church's inheritance of the earth at this time may be a purely spiritual inheritance from heaven at this time, because my understanding is that the world will continue in a sinful existence for another 1000 years. The New Jerusalem does not descend from heaven until the end of this period of time.

    I do believe there will be another 1000 years of mortal living, continuing history as it now is. It's said that Satan will be bound. I don't know what that will look like, but apparently it will be like a Christian city ruling over all nations.

    Anyway, at the end of the 1000 years there is another resurrection, raising up both good and evil who have died during this period of time.

    When Christ comes back it's said that he will set the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. What this means to me is that Christ will engage in a process in which he discriminates between believers and unbelievers. At this time Christ may have been talking in the context of the nation Israel. But when his Kingdom comes to the earth, he will undoubtedly separate believers and unbelievers in all nations.

    I don't really know what this kind of separation will be mean, except that there are separate places for each class of person, sheep and goats. Perhaps this is a preliminary judgment of men who have died?

    I believe you are Amillennial, and would see this quite differently, using the same terminology for the present age? I can see how you might apply that. I just prefer to take the Millennium literally, no matter how difficult it is to explain it. Anyway, this is just how I look at it.

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    Re: Don't you need to be resurrected prior returning with Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    1. So I guess these folks after his return will miss out, those on his right side which will inherit the kingdom?

    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    2. How about believers which are resurrected at the GWT which is after the 2nd coming? (above is the GWT note many do think that this judgement is only for unbelievers in error)
    This is a difficult one for me, as a Premillennialist. I think it's possible that this is a sentencing of people who have died in the present age, to be put into their own place, until the final judgment. Or it may be that Jesus comes back to deal with the nation Israel, making it into a Christian nation, setting the sheep in charge, and the goats in a secondary place.

    We read in the ancient Prophets that Israel will recover never more to be oppressed by evil. When Israel is restored Christ will have to establish that nation on Christian principles. Perhaps this is what the separation of the sheep and the goats is all about?

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    Re: Don't you need to be resurrected prior returning with Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The current belief is that all believers come back with Christ as his army in the 2nd coming.
    Hi Ross
    Are you referring to 1 thess 4.

    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.



    Its clear that the dead in Christ are with him when he comes again.

    It is then, at that moment, the dead in Christ are resurrected and glorified along with the living. Both groups rise and are changed together in that twinkling of an eye when he comes in the Glory of his Father.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Don't you need to be resurrected prior returning with Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Hi Ross
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    Its clear that the dead in Christ are with him when he comes again.
    Well if we look at the passage we see here he DECENDS alone and then ACENDS with the dead in Christ. At the second coming he DECENDS with the dead in Christ resurrected.

    I would say that the event in I Thess would then have to occur AFTER the 2nd coming with his army.

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    Re: Don't you need to be resurrected prior returning with Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Well if we look at the passage we see here he DECENDS alone and then ACENDS with the dead in Christ. At the second coming he DECENDS with the dead in Christ resurrected.

    I would say that the event in I Thess would then have to occur AFTER the 2nd coming with his army.
    But the Thessalonians were informed that the dead in Christ would rise at this coming, not before.


    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Don't you need to be resurrected prior returning with Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    But the Thessalonians were informed that the dead in Christ would rise at this coming, not before.
    These dead in Christ are NOT descending with him in 1 Thess they are still in the grave!!!! Yes, they will ascend with him back to heaven.

    So then your view Christ would have to descend then ascend back to heaven with the dead and then descend back to earth at the I guess 2nd coming (but actually be 3rd if you counted Thess)??????


    Do you see the problem?

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    Re: Don't you need to be resurrected prior returning with Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    These dead in Christ are NOT descending with him in 1 Thess they are still in the grave!!!!
    The souls of those who have died come with him to participate in the bodily resurrection. When he descends the dead in Christ will then rise first and those living will be changed also in resurrection power.


    So then your view Christ would have to descend then ascend back to heaven with the dead and then descend back to earth at the I guess 2nd coming (but actually be 3rd if you counted Thess)??????


    Do you see the problem?

    There is only one promise of his coming that all who have believed look forward to.



    2Thess

    6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed


    2Tim 4

    For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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