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Thread: the whole nation will be saved

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    the whole nation will be saved

    I thought about posting this in the prophecy section, but this is really a matter of biblical consideration more than prophetic viewpoint. We read in Romans that Paul believes "all Israel" will be saved. The question is, Does Paul indicate all Jews will become Christians, or that the whole of Israel, within her boundaries, will be saved politically?

    My guess is that Paul uses the term "salvation" in both ways simultaneously. That is, he is referring both to the political deliverance of the nation as well as to its Christian conversion.

    But I don't believe he's talking about the salvation of every Jew! The conversion of the whole nation to the Christian religion is not the same thing as every individual embracing Christianity as his or her lifestyle!

    Rather, Paul's talking about the political salvation of the nation along with its conversion, legally, to a Christian-based system. That is, the law of the land will become entirely Christian in focus, and will not be pluralistic in the religious sense.

    What do you think? Here is the passage:

    Romans 11.
    25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:“The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    27 And this is my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”

    28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I thought about posting this in the prophecy section, but this is really a matter of biblical consideration more than prophetic viewpoint. We read in Romans that Paul believes "all Israel" will be saved. The question is, Does Paul indicate all Jews will become Christians, or that the whole of Israel, within her boundaries, will be saved politically?

    My guess is that Paul uses the term "salvation" in both ways simultaneously. That is, he is referring both to the political deliverance of the nation as well as to its Christian conversion.

    But I don't believe he's talking about the salvation of every Jew! The conversion of the whole nation to the Christian religion is not the same thing as every individual embracing Christianity as his or her lifestyle!

    Rather, Paul's talking about the political salvation of the nation along with its conversion, legally, to a Christian-based system. That is, the law of the land will become entirely Christian in focus, and will not be pluralistic in the religious sense.

    What do you think? Here is the passage:

    Romans 11.
    25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:“The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    27 And this is my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”

    28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
    I'm not sure that God is a politician or cares about political systems. I think he's more interested in any system that is anchored in righteousness and this has little to do with politics. The timescale Paul is speaking about points to a time when the Lord himself will assume Rulership of the whole earth. I concur that Paul's idea of "all Israel" being saved denotes the nation of Israel finally embracing their Messiah. Naturally, this speaks of those who believe. But the intransigent who will die in their unbelief is not part of the restored nation.

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I'm not sure that God is a politician or cares about political systems. I think he's more interested in any system that is anchored in righteousness and this has little to do with politics. The timescale Paul is speaking about points to a time when the Lord himself will assume Rulership of the whole earth. I concur that Paul's idea of "all Israel" being saved denotes the nation of Israel finally embracing their Messiah. Naturally, this speaks of those who believe. But the intransigent who will die in their unbelief is not part of the restored nation.
    If God cares even about the "hair of our heads," He certainly cares about politics! If He cares enough to predict that Abraham will inherit a multitude of nations that share his faith He certainly cares about the political structure of nations! If God cared about Israel, as a nation, when He promised Abraham the same, then He certainly cares about politics!

    I think you're confusing God's lack of concern for "dirty politics" with His concern for political structure, which does provide safety for a nation's citizens, which provides welfare for its citizens? So maybe we're just talking past each other here?

    What I think we do agree on is that the future salvation of the nation Israel will involve Christians. I don't yet know whether we agree on the constitution of that nation, whether it is comprised of both believers and unbelievers? I believe future Israel will be a Christian theocracy, but which will include believers and unbelievers. Do you agree or disagree?

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I thought about posting this in the prophecy section, but this is really a matter of biblical consideration more than prophetic viewpoint. We read in Romans that Paul believes "all Israel" will be saved. The question is, Does Paul indicate all Jews will become Christians, or that the whole of Israel, within her boundaries, will be saved politically?

    My guess is that Paul uses the term "salvation" in both ways simultaneously. That is, he is referring both to the political deliverance of the nation as well as to its Christian conversion.

    But I don't believe he's talking about the salvation of every Jew! The conversion of the whole nation to the Christian religion is not the same thing as every individual embracing Christianity as his or her lifestyle!

    Rather, Paul's talking about the political salvation of the nation along with its conversion, legally, to a Christian-based system. That is, the law of the land will become entirely Christian in focus, and will not be pluralistic in the religious sense.

    What do you think? Here is the passage:

    Romans 11.
    25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:“The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    27 And this is my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”

    28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
    In order to understand Romans 11:25-32 properly, we need to first compare and understand the following scriptures:

    Hosea 1:6-7:

    "She conceived again and bore a daughter. And the LORD said to him, Call her name No Mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, to forgive them at all.
    But I will have mercy on the house of Judah,
    and I will save them by the LORD their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen." (Hosea 1:6-7).

    "Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." (1 Peter 2:10).

    Hosea 1:8-11:

    "When she had weaned No Mercy, she conceived and bore a son.
    And the LORD said, Call his name Not My People, for you are not my people, and I am not your God.

    Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, You are not my people, it shall be said to them, Children of the living God.
    And the children of Judah and the children of Israel shall be gathered together, and they shall appoint for themselves one head. And they shall go up from the land, for great shall be the day of Jezreel."

    "As indeed he says in Hosea,
    Those who were not my people I will call my people,
    and her who was not beloved I will call beloved.

    And in the very place where it was said to them, You are not my people,
    there they will be called sons of the living God." (Romans 9:25-26).

    The above verses in Hosea are referring to "The House of Israel", collectively known as "Ephraim", of whom Jacob said:

    (See Genesis 48:19 below):

    "When Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, it displeased him, and he took his father's hand to move it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head.
    And Joseph said to his father, Not this way, my father; since this one is the firstborn, put your right hand on his head.
    But his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great. Nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a multitude of nations." (Gen 48: 17-19)

    The words translated into English as "multitude of nations" are the Hebrew words "m'lo goyi" ("fullness of Gentile nations").

    Gentiles who believe in Jesus are grafted into Israel (Rom 11:17).

    The vast majority of The House of Israel or "Ephraim" were exiled from the land, and were resettled in various parts of the Assyrian empire. Their descendants intermarried with Gentiles and today they are completely amalgamated with a multitude of nations (untraceable).

    CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT TO FOLLOW:

    Gentiles who believe in Jesus and are grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17) are considered by God to be "The House of Israel", regarding whom it was said, "You are not My People, but regarding whom it is now said, "You are the people of God". END CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT.

    Whether not not you agree with the above statement, the fact remains that WE received mercy, and it is on this basis that Paul said,

    " Just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
    so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
    For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." (Romans 11:30-32) (See the attached image).

    What does the following mean?

    "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:29).

    There is only one New Covenant gift with a calling: Salvation by faith.

    BUT

    "For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." (Romans 4:3 ]).

    "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel," (Romans 9:6).

    ""And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29).

    Let's cut this short.

    If Gentiles/The House of Israel received mercy because of the unbelief of The House of Judah, then no one can say God is not going to be fair:

    " Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
    And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
    The Deliverer will come from Zion,
    he will banish ungodliness from Jacob;


    and this will be my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins." (Romans 11:25-27).

    It makes TOTAL sense to me that Gentiles who are "the fullness of the Gentiles/a multitude of nations" are regarded as "Ephraim" or "The House of Israel" when through faith in Christ we become grafted into Israel, and we Gentiles received mercy because of Judah's unbelief, therefore Judah will also at some point in "time", receive mercy.

    SOMETHING is going to happen to change Judah. I don't know what it is, but all the Biblical types point that way:

    1. The generation born in the wilderness going into the promised land under the leadership of Joshua.
    2. Joseph forgiving his bothers, when he revealed to them who he was and they were dismayed in his presence: Remember, Joseph had become ruler of all Egypt with only Pharaoh's throne excepted and they declared him "Bow the knee!"
    3. The "two sticks" of the house of Israel and the house of Judah being joined into one stick, and all of them being assembled in unity (the Hebrew words - the English words are "gathered together") under one king in the land of their fathers.

    Why not the Gentiles? Who said Abraham is not the father of the Gentiles who believe in Jesus, and who said Abraham would not become the father of many nations, and who said Ephraim's descendants would not become "the fullness of the Gentiles".

    No one said it. The opposite statements are made in the Bible.

    Attachment 13690

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I'm not sure that God is a politician or cares about political systems. I think he's more interested in any system that is anchored in righteousness and this has little to do with politics. The timescale Paul is speaking about points to a time when the Lord himself will assume Rulership of the whole earth. I concur that Paul's idea of "all Israel" being saved denotes the nation of Israel finally embracing their Messiah. Naturally, this speaks of those who believe. But the intransigent who will die in their unbelief is not part of the restored nation.
    I concur with your statement. Although I don't know if Elijah will come immediately before the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and if Elijah maybe will cause the vast majority of Jews to repent of their unbelief.

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If God cares even about the "hair of our heads," He certainly cares about politics! If He cares enough to predict that Abraham will inherit a multitude of nations that share his faith He certainly cares about the political structure of nations! If God cared about Israel, as a nation, when He promised Abraham the same, then He certainly cares about politics!

    I think you're confusing God's lack of concern for "dirty politics" with His concern for political structure, which does provide safety for a nation's citizens, which provides welfare for its citizens? So maybe we're just talking past each other here?

    What I think we do agree on is that the future salvation of the nation Israel will involve Christians. I don't yet know whether we agree on the constitution of that nation, whether it is comprised of both believers and unbelievers? I believe future Israel will be a Christian theocracy, but which will include believers and unbelievers. Do you agree or disagree?
    I agree with both yourself and Trivalee, but I agree with trivalee that the kingdom of Christ is ruled by Christ (but I would add: and the resurrected saints ruling with Him as judges under Him).

    "From the river of Egypt to the Euphrates river" is a much larger territory than we see now - but I also believe that if "they are judging the 12 tribes of Israel" then it means there will be survivors (as per Zechariah chapter 14) and during the (literal millennium) the survivors of the plague judgments and their naturally born descendants will all be Christians, and the resurrected saints will be ruling over them. Those resurrected saints will probably be able to move between heaven and earth at will. A whole new ball game.

    Probably there will be no national borders during Christ's reign, but not all will be living in the land God gave to Abraham.

    The amillenialists and post-millenialists who read this post are busy holding their horses because they're afraid if they must reply to ithis post, they will be using words like "rubbish", "preposterous" etc

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If God cares even about the "hair of our heads," He certainly cares about politics! If He cares enough to predict that Abraham will inherit a multitude of nations that share his faith He certainly cares about the political structure of nations! If God cared about Israel, as a nation, when He promised Abraham the same, then He certainly cares about politics!

    I think you're confusing God's lack of concern for "dirty politics" with His concern for political structure, which does provide safety for a nation's citizens, which provides welfare for its citizens? So maybe we're just talking past each other here?

    What I think we do agree on is that the future salvation of the nation Israel will involve Christians. I don't yet know whether we agree on the constitution of that nation, whether it is comprised of both believers and unbelievers? I believe future Israel will be a Christian theocracy, but which will include believers and unbelievers. Do you agree or disagree?
    I agree with both yourself and Trivalee, but I agree with trivalee that the kingdom of Christ is ruled by Christ (but I would add: and the resurrected saints ruling with Him as judges under Him).

    "From the river of Egypt to the Euphrates river" is a much larger territory than we see now - but I also believe that if "they are judging the 12 tribes of Israel" then it means there will be survivors (as per Zechariah chapter 14) and during the (literal millennium) the survivors of the plague judgments and their naturally born descendants will all be Christians, and the resurrected saints will be ruling over them. Those resurrected saints will probably be able to move between heaven and earth at will. A whole new ball game.

    Probably there will be no national borders during Christ's reign, but not all will be living in the land God gave to Abraham.

    The amillenialists and post-millenialists who read this post are busy holding their horses because they're afraid if they must reply to ithis post, they will be using words like "rubbish", "preposterous" etc

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    But I don't believe he's talking about the salvation of every Jew! The conversion of the whole nation to the Christian religion is not the same thing as every individual embracing Christianity as his or her lifestyle!

    Rather, Paul's talking about the political salvation of the nation along with its conversion, legally, to a Christian-based system. That is, the law of the land will become entirely Christian in focus, and will not be pluralistic in the religious sense.
    I disagree with those thoughts. God requires faith in Jesus from every individual. It has nothing to do with "on which faith" your nation's law is based, or on religious tradition/s.

    "so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth," (Philippians 2:10).

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    But I don't believe he's talking about the salvation of every Jew! The conversion of the whole nation to the Christian religion is not the same thing as every individual embracing Christianity as his or her lifestyle!

    Rather, Paul's talking about the political salvation of the nation along with its conversion, legally, to a Christian-based system. That is, the law of the land will become entirely Christian in focus, and will not be pluralistic in the religious sense.
    I disagree with those thoughts. God requires faith in Jesus from every individual. It has nothing to do with "on which faith" your nation's law is based, or on religious tradition/s.

    "so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth," (Philippians 2:10).

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If God cares even about the "hair of our heads," He certainly cares about politics! If He cares enough to predict that Abraham will inherit a multitude of nations that share his faith He certainly cares about the political structure of nations! If God cared about Israel, as a nation, when He promised Abraham the same, then He certainly cares about politics!

    I think you're confusing God's lack of concern for "dirty politics" with His concern for political structure, which does provide safety for a nation's citizens, which provides welfare for its citizens? So maybe we're just talking past each other here?

    What I think we do agree on is that the future salvation of the nation Israel will involve Christians. I don't yet know whether we agree on the constitution of that nation, whether it is comprised of both believers and unbelievers? I believe future Israel will be a Christian theocracy, but which will include believers and unbelievers. Do you agree or disagree?
    My point is that I haven't seen a political system that is devoid of corruption. And corrupt political systems suppress righteousness.

    Prov 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

    Maybe I misunderstood. But I do hope you are not among those promoting the idea of a distinct Israel nation separated from the church when Christ returns? What is certain is that the unbelievers [Jew/Gentile] will be welcomed in God's kingdom. (Rev 21:27)

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    In order to understand Romans 11:25-32 properly, we need to first compare and understand the following scriptures:

    Hosea 1:6-7:

    "She conceived again and bore a daughter. And the LORD said to him, Call her name No Mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, to forgive them at all.
    But I will have mercy on the house of Judah,
    and I will save them by the LORD their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen." (Hosea 1:6-7).

    "Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." (1 Peter 2:10).

    Hosea 1:8-11:

    "When she had weaned No Mercy, she conceived and bore a son.
    And the LORD said, Call his name Not My People, for you are not my people, and I am not your God.

    Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, You are not my people, it shall be said to them, Children of the living God.
    And the children of Judah and the children of Israel shall be gathered together, and they shall appoint for themselves one head. And they shall go up from the land, for great shall be the day of Jezreel."

    "As indeed he says in Hosea,
    Those who were not my people I will call my people,
    and her who was not beloved I will call beloved.

    And in the very place where it was said to them, You are not my people,
    there they will be called sons of the living God." (Romans 9:25-26).

    The above verses in Hosea are referring to "The House of Israel", collectively known as "Ephraim", of whom Jacob said:

    (See Genesis 48:19 below):

    "When Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, it displeased him, and he took his father's hand to move it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head.
    And Joseph said to his father, Not this way, my father; since this one is the firstborn, put your right hand on his head.
    But his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great. Nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a multitude of nations." (Gen 48: 17-19)

    The words translated into English as "multitude of nations" are the Hebrew words "m'lo goyi" ("fullness of Gentile nations").

    Gentiles who believe in Jesus are grafted into Israel (Rom 11:17).

    The vast majority of The House of Israel or "Ephraim" were exiled from the land, and were resettled in various parts of the Assyrian empire. Their descendants intermarried with Gentiles and today they are completely amalgamated with a multitude of nations (untraceable).

    CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT TO FOLLOW:

    Gentiles who believe in Jesus and are grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17) are considered by God to be "The House of Israel", regarding whom it was said, "You are not My People, but regarding whom it is now said, "You are the people of God". END CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT.

    Whether not not you agree with the above statement, the fact remains that WE received mercy, and it is on this basis that Paul said,

    " Just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
    so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
    For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." (Romans 11:30-32) (See the attached image).

    What does the following mean?

    "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:29).

    There is only one New Covenant gift with a calling: Salvation by faith.

    BUT

    "For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." (Romans 4:3 ]).

    "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel," (Romans 9:6).

    ""And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29).

    Let's cut this short.

    If Gentiles/The House of Israel received mercy because of the unbelief of The House of Judah, then no one can say God is not going to be fair:

    " Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
    And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
    The Deliverer will come from Zion,
    he will banish ungodliness from Jacob;


    and this will be my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins." (Romans 11:25-27).

    It makes TOTAL sense to me that Gentiles who are "the fullness of the Gentiles/a multitude of nations" are regarded as "Ephraim" or "The House of Israel" when through faith in Christ we become grafted into Israel, and we Gentiles received mercy because of Judah's unbelief, therefore Judah will also at some point in "time", receive mercy.

    SOMETHING is going to happen to change Judah. I don't know what it is, but all the Biblical types point that way:

    1. The generation born in the wilderness going into the promised land under the leadership of Joshua.
    2. Joseph forgiving his bothers, when he revealed to them who he was and they were dismayed in his presence: Remember, Joseph had become ruler of all Egypt with only Pharaoh's throne excepted and they declared him "Bow the knee!"
    3. The "two sticks" of the house of Israel and the house of Judah being joined into one stick, and all of them being assembled in unity (the Hebrew words - the English words are "gathered together") under one king in the land of their fathers.

    Why not the Gentiles? Who said Abraham is not the father of the Gentiles who believe in Jesus, and who said Abraham would not become the father of many nations, and who said Ephraim's descendants would not become "the fullness of the Gentiles".

    No one said it. The opposite statements are made in the Bible.

    Attachment 13690
    A wonderful exegesis. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I concur with your statement. Although I don't know if Elijah will come immediately before the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and if Elijah maybe will cause the vast majority of Jews to repent of their unbelief.
    The coming of Elijah is symbolised in the Two Witnesses of Rev 11. We know they will finish their ministry long before Jesus Christ returns to claim sovereignty over the kingdoms of the earth (1 Cor 15:24).

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    When it is said that Ephraim, son of Joseph, would become a "multitude of nations," the meaning does not appear to be referring to actual nations. After Joseph Ephraim became the dominant tribe over Manasseh, and came to represent all the families of Israel, specifically the 10 northern tribes.

    To interpret this as if Ephraim is to become Gentile nations is far from the thought, and not what actually happened. In fact, when N. Israel separated from Judah in the south, God indicated they were not to remain that way forever. The Jewish People were destined to be a single nation, and not even 2 nations, let alone a "multitude of nations."

    That's why after the captivities the Jewish People were no longer distinguished as Judah and Israel. Rather, the territory of Judah then came to represent all of Israel. No longer was Ephraim the standard bearer for all Israel.

    And future prophecy indicates Israel will be a single nation when they are converted to Christianity. If your theology is built upon an errant view of what Ephraim became, then your prophetic application will be wrong also. Just my opinion...

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    When it is said that Ephraim, son of Joseph, would become a "multitude of nations," the meaning does not appear to be referring to actual nations. After Joseph Ephraim became the dominant tribe over Manasseh, and came to represent all the families of Israel, specifically the 10 northern tribes.

    To interpret this as if Ephraim is to become Gentile nations is far from the thought, and not what actually happened. In fact, when N. Israel separated from Judah in the south, God indicated they were not to remain that way forever. The Jewish People were destined to be a single nation, and not even 2 nations, let alone a "multitude of nations."

    That's why after the captivities the Jewish People were no longer distinguished as Judah and Israel. Rather, the territory of Judah then came to represent all of Israel. No longer was Ephraim the standard bearer for all Israel.

    And future prophecy indicates Israel will be a single nation when they are converted to Christianity. If your theology is built upon an errant view of what Ephraim became, then your prophetic application will be wrong also. Just my opinion...
    and an opinion I agree with.

  13. #13

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    I am not that sure as to God will saved the whole nation, but I really hope that he will.

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by joyjoy22 View Post
    I am not that sure as to God will saved the whole nation, but I really hope that he will.
    Thank you. Your heart seems to be in the right place. Should we want France or China to be saved, as nations, and not Israel? And by salvation, I'm referring to the conversion of the political system to a Christian-based system.

    Some argue that such a political-based system is not significant, or simply doesn't really happen. But there have been Christian countries throughout NT history, beginning with the conversion of the Roman Empire.

    To say that the conversion of the Roman Empire to a Christian empire is insignificant is about as ridiculous a statement as one could make! No matter how thorough the conversion was for the Roman people, there is no question that God has always wanted a nation's institutions to conform with Christianity! If God wanted Israel, in the OT, to conform to His Law, then He certainly wants nations, in the NT era, to conform to Christian law!

    Not only does Paul say that Israel will convert, but the body of OT prophecies indicate the same, that Israel will one day experience the completion of their hope. That will be the Messianic Age, or the Age to Come. It is spoken of throughout the Prophets. And it is also spoken of in NT Scriptures.

    One of the 1st things the Disciples asked Jesus after his resurrection from the dead was:

    "are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

    This is an unmistakable allusion to the fact Israel will, as a nation, be restored as God's People at the end of the age. Many nations have already converted to Christianity though they, like Israel, have backslidden. Israel will be, I think, the last nation in this age to convert to Christianity. And that will be as Christ returns to begin the next age.

    "The first will be last, and the last first."

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I disagree with those thoughts. God requires faith in Jesus from every individual. It has nothing to do with "on which faith" your nation's law is based, or on religious tradition/s.

    "so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth," (Philippians 2:10).
    I don't believe in religious compromise but I'm a realist. God has wanted Christian nations to be thoroughly Christian, but the reality is that Christian nations have always contained imposters, compromisers, and opponents. I don't believe it will be any different for Israel when Christ comes back and converts them to Christianity. Since the Millennial Age will be a continuing age of sin and mortality, Israel will contain both Christians and nonChristians, even though the legal religion will be Christianity. None of this has anything to do with what I wish to be, or with what I think is best for the nation. I'm simply a pragmatist.

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