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Thread: the whole nation will be saved

  1. #31
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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Yeah, how does someone reference a passage as proof that totally contradicts their statement?
    I don't know but I see things like this all the time and it never makes any sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Yeah, how does someone reference a passage as proof that totally contradicts their statement?
    I don't know but I see things like this all the time and it never makes any sense.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  2. #32

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    I didn't say that Abraham became 12 nations! You are here arguing against a statement I did *not* make!
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    We are most certainly not Israelites--those of us born outside of Jewish ethnicity, nor converts to Judaism! This is Replacement Theology, pure and simple. It is common in Church history, but I don't buy into it. Sorry! It would destroy God's word of promise to Abraham, that he would have a biological nation forever. It was a promise to his particular family. Other nations are only promised a common faith--not a common bloodline, nor a common ethnicity.
    So you're in effect saying that Abraham became 12 nations, all ethnically descendant from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel).

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    We are most certainly not Israelites--those of us born outside of Jewish ethnicity, nor converts to Judaism! This is Replacement Theology, pure and simple.
    I never said there has been any replacement, but you are not saying what the Bible sys about this:

    "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;" (Romans 11:17)

    "Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God," (Eph 2:19).

    "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28).

    We (Gentiles) are Israelites. Jewish believers are Israelites.

    It does not matter that the handful of Israelites from the 10 Northern tribes who escaped to Judah when Israel was scattered, became amalgamated in Judah. The fact of the matter is God promised the House of Israel (the majority of the 10 Northern tribes) that He would eventually bring them back into the land of their fathers, and He promised:

    "Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

    And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
    And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
    And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:"

    "And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
    And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
    Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
    My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."
    (Ezekiel 37:19-22, 24-28)

    There always only has been one elect nation. Just because Gentiles are not genetically descended from Abraham does not mean we do not become part of "the House of Israel" when we are grafted into Israel among the believing remnant of the natural seed.

    There are not two chosen nations, there is only one, and it has not been replaced (I never said it had), but what you said here implies that there are two:

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    We are most certainly not Israelites--those of us born outside of Jewish ethnicity, nor converts to Judaism! This is Replacement Theology, pure and simple. It is common in Church history, but I don't buy into it. Sorry! It would destroy God's word of promise to Abraham, that he would have a biological nation forever. It was a promise to his particular family. Other nations are only promised a common faith--not a common bloodline, nor a common ethnicity.
    1 ("We who are most certainly not Israelites") + 1 (Abraham's biological nation) = 2.

    You are saying that there are two chosen nations: (1) the Jews who believe in Jesus; and (2) the Gentiles.

    Nope. There is and always has been only one chosen nation, divided into "The House of Israel" and "The House of Judah" after Solomon's time - and it was to "The House of Israel and the House of Judah" that the New Covenant was promised.

    Jacob (Israel) told Ephraim (who represents the House of Israel) that his seed would become the fullness of the goyi.


    The goyim who believe in Jesus are grafted into Israel among the Jewish remnant and become fellow citizens with the saints.

    Paul stated that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the goyim has come in.

    Ezekiel prophesied that the House of Israel and the House of Judah would be joined together (literally, in the Hebrew, "assembled in unity") in the land of their fathers after the House of Israel had been brought back from being scattered among the nations.

    Your distinction that you are making between the genetic seed and the gentiles in Christ is unbiblical, and creates two chosen nations.

    Chew on it iron man, and come back to sharpen iron man II.

  3. #33
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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    So you're in effect saying that Abraham became 12 nations, all ethnically descendant from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel).
    Of course. I don't know how else one could read it? Don't you see how important this is? God values the impact we have on our own families. If we are responsible before God we will enable God to bless our family, assuming the family cooperates. But in this case, God was so impressed by Abraham's faith and obedience that He *guaranteed* Abraham would have a good family, even if it took many generations.

    This is great promise for us, as well. If we are faithful we can enable our own family to be blessed. We may even guarantee it over several generations! Even more, we may influence other families. This is what Abraham was promised, as an example for us! One day Israel *must* come around, even if many disobedient Jews have to die in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    I never said there has been any replacement, but you are not saying what the Bible sys about this:

    "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;" (Romans 11:17)

    "Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God," (Eph 2:19).

    "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28).

    We (Gentiles) are Israelites. Jewish believers are Israelites.

    It does not matter that the handful of Israelites from the 10 Northern tribes who escaped to Judah when Israel was scattered, became amalgamated in Judah. The fact of the matter is God promised the House of Israel (the majority of the 10 Northern tribes) that He would eventually bring them back into the land of their fathers, and He promised:

    "Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

    And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
    And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
    And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:"

    "And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
    And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
    Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
    My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."
    (Ezekiel 37:19-22, 24-28)

    There always only has been one elect nation. Just because Gentiles are not genetically descended from Abraham does not mean we do not become part of "the House of Israel" when we are grafted into Israel among the believing remnant of the natural seed.
    A lot of what you say I would agree with. But I cannot agree that all nations join into a single nation "Israel" when they become Christians. My own perspective is that all these nations remain distinct, and that entire nations can become Christian nations, by Constitution, or people within those nations become Christians.

    Some people call it becoming "one body" in Christ. But the terminology is not, We become "one nation" in Christ. We do not become part of the Israeli nation when we convert to Christianity. Rather, we become Christians in our own respective nations.

    I just want to get the terminology right, because God promised *nations* to Abraham. If we all become a single nation, then God's promise to Abraham failed!

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    There are not two chosen nations, there is only one, and it has not been replaced (I never said it had), but what you said here implies that there are two:
    The joining of 2 nations into 1 nation had to do with Israel and Judah, who were both initially the single nation promised to Abraham as his *biological inheritance.* Beyond this, Abraham was promised a multitude of nations by faith, and not by biological inheritance.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    1 ("We who are most certainly not Israelites") + 1 (Abraham's biological nation) = 2.

    You are saying that there are two chosen nations: (1) the Jews who believe in Jesus; and (2) the Gentiles.
    No, actually I'm saying there are many nations, and not just a single nation, Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    Nope. There is and always has been only one chosen nation, divided into "The House of Israel" and "The House of Judah" after Solomon's time - and it was to "The House of Israel and the House of Judah" that the New Covenant was promised.
    No, there was only one nation in the OT era, but God always planned for there to be a "multitude of nations" promised to Abraham. These are the Christian nations of the NT era, including Christians in nonChristian countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    Jacob (Israel) told Ephraim (who represents the House of Israel) that his seed would become the fullness of the goyi.
    Yes, Ephraim was to become a "multitude of nations," but this is an exceptional use of the term, not meaning that Ephraim would become Gentile nations. Jews have never interpreted it this way, and it is their Bible! It was a metaphorical application of the term, indicating that Ephraim would become the larger tribe.

    Ephraim would, for example, become the equivalent of several small nations, instead of just a single tribe within Israel. And in reality, Ephraim became so significant, in the history of Israel, that it came to represent all 10 northern tribes.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    The goyim who believe in Jesus are grafted into Israel among the Jewish remnant and become fellow citizens with the saints.

    Paul stated that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the goyim has come in.

    Ezekiel prophesied that the House of Israel and the House of Judah would be joined together (literally, in the Hebrew, "assembled in unity") in the land of their fathers after the House of Israel had been brought back from being scattered among the nations.

    Your distinction that you are making between the genetic seed and the gentiles in Christ is unbiblical, and creates two chosen nations.

    Chew on it iron man, and come back to sharpen iron man II.
    Seen both movies. So I've been down this path lots of times. So far, I haven't heard anything new. But I always enjoy exchanging ideas.

  4. #34
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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post



    I never said there has been any replacement, but you are not saying what the Bible sys about this:

    "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;" (Romans 11:17)

    "Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God," (Eph 2:19).

    "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28).

    We (Gentiles) are Israelites. Jewish believers are Israelites.
    Yes, only believers are Israelites now. Non-believers removed from the tree are ex-Israelites at least in the spiritual aspect of what the name Israel now means. God gave the name to certain people, and now has redefined it and given to a people not based on bloodlines but spiritual beliefs only. Bloodlines no longer matter.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  5. #35
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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yes, only believers are Israelites now. Non-believers removed from the tree are ex-Israelites at least in the spiritual aspect of what the name Israel now means. God gave the name to certain people, and now has redefined it and given to a people not based on bloodlines but spiritual beliefs only. Bloodlines no longer matter.
    Spot on. ... . . .
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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    Cool Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yes, only believers are Israelites now. Non-believers removed from the tree are ex-Israelites at least in the spiritual aspect of what the name Israel now means. God gave the name to certain people, and now has redefined it and given to a people not based on bloodlines but spiritual beliefs only. Bloodlines no longer matter.
    Malarkey!

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Spot on. ... . . .
    The is still an accounting for the physical promise God made to Abraham, and that says bloodlines still mater!
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  7. #37
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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yes, only believers are Israelites now. Non-believers removed from the tree are ex-Israelites at least in the spiritual aspect of what the name Israel now means. God gave the name to certain people, and now has redefined it and given to a people not based on bloodlines but spiritual beliefs only. Bloodlines no longer matter.
    Imagine my saying that it doesn't matter if your relatives become Christians or not--all that matters is that people in any family get saved? I think God was taking special note to show Abraham that He was concerned about Abraham's relatives, specifically about his children and descendants after him. To not be given this promise would rob Abraham of much of any hope concerning his family.

    But the Scriptures say we should put our family first. And we should not think that our work and ministry towards our family is in vain. The word of God will produce in time.

    I'm not saying you have to agree. I'm just giving you my thoughts on it.

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Malarkey!



    The is still an accounting for the physical promise God made to Abraham, and that says bloodlines still mater!
    I can understand the importance of personal choice. People are not limited to just one bloodline with regard to matters of salvation.

    On the other hand, why can we not receive promises that reward our work with respect to our children and grandchildren after us? Aren't children part of our work and prosperity? Can't God ensure that some in a particular nation come to faith, in response to a patriarch's prayer?

    I do think God assured Abraham that his work would be good not just towards other nationalities, but also towards his own nationality and towards his own posterity. Seems like a very God-like thing to me!

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Imagine my saying that it doesn't matter if your relatives become Christians or not--all that matters is that people in any family get saved? I think God was taking special note to show Abraham that He was concerned about Abraham's relatives, specifically about his children and descendants after him. To not be given this promise would rob Abraham of much of any hope concerning his family.

    But the Scriptures say we should put our family first. And we should not think that our work and ministry towards our family is in vain. The word of God will produce in time.

    I'm not saying you have to agree. I'm just giving you my thoughts on it.
    I'm on the same page as you are Randy. Balance is the key. We shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post

    The is still an accounting for the physical promise God made to Abraham, and that says bloodlines still mater!

    Don't get caught up in the weeds of types and shadows... the bloodlines do not matter any longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post

    The is still an accounting for the physical promise God made to Abraham, and that says bloodlines still mater!

    Don't get caught up in the weeds of types and shadows... the bloodlines do not matter any longer.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Malarkey!



    The is still an accounting for the physical promise God made to Abraham, and that says bloodlines still mater!
    They don't matter in regard to salvation. Only those attached to the tree that grew the first Israelites/Jews will have salvation. Some of those branches are the originals, some are new ones but all are Israel who are upon that tree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Malarkey!



    The is still an accounting for the physical promise God made to Abraham, and that says bloodlines still mater!
    They don't matter in regard to salvation. Only those attached to the tree that grew the first Israelites/Jews will have salvation. Some of those branches are the originals, some are new ones but all are Israel who are upon that tree.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  12. #42

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    In regard to salvation?


    And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:26,27

    Is that not a, "salvation," statement?

  13. #43
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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    In regard to salvation?


    And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:26,27

    Is that not a, "salvation," statement?
    Israel is only those branches attached to the tree and certainly all those branches will be saved. The ones removed are dry and dead and will be burned if they don't accept Christ and get re-attached.

    Paul certainly did not say all apostate Israel shall be saved.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  14. #44

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Israel is only those branches attached to the tree and certainly all those branches will be saved. The ones removed are dry and dead and will be burned if they don't accept Christ and get re-attached.

    Paul certainly did not say all apostate Israel shall be saved.
    True.

    The ONLY reason why the bloodline matters is because God promised Abraham,

    "And in your Seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." (Genesis 22:18);

    and Paul teaches us,

    "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Galatians 3:16).

    The only seed of Abraham through whom all the nations of the earth have been blessed, is Jesus the Messiah. The only person in heaven and the universe who matters to us in terms of our relationship with God the Father, is Jesus Christ:

    "For God is one, and there is one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus,"
    (1 Timothy 2:5).

    Therefore the only covenant that matters is the new covenant in His blood.

    Jesus is the ONLY reason why the bloodline matters.

    CONFUSING GENETIC ANCESTRY WITH THE ELECT NATION.

    Jesus and His apostles state:

    1. God's elect are those who are of the same works of faith in God and His Word that Abraham was.

    2. Those genetic descendants who do not believe in Jesus are broken off from God's elect nation (a.k.a Israel).

    3. Gentiles who believe are grafted into God's elect nation among the genetic descendants who do believe, who are only a remnant.

    "Not so", say the people who are the only real replacement theologists (those who want to replace God's elect nation with a non-elect, just because the non-elect are genetic descendants of Abraham).

    REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY

    The only Replacement Theology is not the replacement theology Jesus and His apostles are accused of (because those who falsely accuse others of "Replacement Theology" are in effect accusing Christ and His apostles of it).

    The only real "Replacement Theology" is the replacement theology of those who want to replace God's elect with a non-elect, even though they are not Christ's - and only because they are genetically descended from Abraham.

    It's time the real replacement theologists owned up to the fact that they are teaching and adhering to Replacement Theology (seeking to replace God's elect in Christ with a non-elect), or seeking to add a non-elect to God's elect in Christ.

    The real replacement theologists have obsessed themselves not with the remnant of genetic descendants who have believed (there must be quite a number of them if one considers those who believed during the days of the apostles and since then until now) - but they have obsessed themselves with the genetic descendants who are not Israel (because they have been broken off from Israel through unbelief).

    The Gentiles who believe and are grafted into Israel among the believing remnant of Abraham's natural descendants are one in Christ (fellow citizens with) the natural descendants.

    Creating two 'Israels' because of an obsession with non-Israelites is absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Israel is only those branches attached to the tree and certainly all those branches will be saved. The ones removed are dry and dead and will be burned if they don't accept Christ and get re-attached.

    Paul certainly did not say all apostate Israel shall be saved.
    True.

    The ONLY reason why the bloodline matters is because God promised Abraham,

    "And in your Seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." (Genesis 22:18);

    and Paul teaches us,

    "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Galatians 3:16).

    The only seed of Abraham through whom all the nations of the earth have been blessed, is Jesus the Messiah. The only person in heaven and the universe who matters to us in terms of our relationship with God the Father, is Jesus Christ:

    "For God is one, and there is one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus,"
    (1 Timothy 2:5).

    Therefore the only covenant that matters is the new covenant in His blood.

    Jesus is the ONLY reason why the bloodline matters.

    CONFUSING GENETIC ANCESTRY WITH THE ELECT NATION.

    Jesus and His apostles state:

    1. God's elect are those who are of the same works of faith in God and His Word that Abraham was.

    2. Those genetic descendants who do not believe in Jesus are broken off from God's elect nation (a.k.a Israel).

    3. Gentiles who believe are grafted into God's elect nation among the genetic descendants who do believe, who are only a remnant.

    "Not so", say the people who are the only real replacement theologists (those who want to replace God's elect nation with a non-elect, just because the non-elect are genetic descendants of Abraham).

    REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY

    The only Replacement Theology is not the replacement theology Jesus and His apostles are accused of (because those who falsely accuse others of "Replacement Theology" are in effect accusing Christ and His apostles of it).

    The only real "Replacement Theology" is the replacement theology of those who want to replace God's elect with a non-elect, even though they are not Christ's - and only because they are genetically descended from Abraham.

    It's time the real replacement theologists owned up to the fact that they are teaching and adhering to Replacement Theology (seeking to replace God's elect in Christ with a non-elect), or seeking to add a non-elect to God's elect in Christ.

    The real replacement theologists have obsessed themselves not with the remnant of genetic descendants who have believed (there must be quite a number of them if one considers those who believed during the days of the apostles and since then until now) - but they have obsessed themselves with the genetic descendants who are not Israel (because they have been broken off from Israel through unbelief).

    The Gentiles who believe and are grafted into Israel among the believing remnant of Abraham's natural descendants are one in Christ (fellow citizens with) the natural descendants.

    Creating two 'Israels' because of an obsession with non-Israelites is absurd.

  15. #45

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    In regard to salvation?


    And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:26,27

    Is that not a, "salvation," statement?
    It hasn't happened yet. There is only one elect nation in Christ and anyone who is not in Christ is not part of it. An entire generation of Israelites perished in the wilderness in unbelief and were not allowed to enter the promised land.

    There is only one elect nation, and they are in Christ and He is in them. No one who is not in Christ is part of Israel.

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