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Thread: the whole nation will be saved

  1. #46
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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I'm on the same page as you are Randy. Balance is the key. We shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
    Thanks brother. I know you're a very thoughtful Christian. Any time we agree it's "party time!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I'm on the same page as you are Randy. Balance is the key. We shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
    Thanks brother. I know you're a very thoughtful Christian. Any time we agree it's "party time!"

  2. #47
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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    In regard to salvation?


    And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:26,27

    Is that not a, "salvation," statement?
    Yes. However, this has been an age-long problem within Christianity. The Early Church seemed to have some hope for Israel's future salvation. But that hope seemed to ebb over time, as it appeared Jews were no closer to becoming Christians, as a people. And we saw the rise of Replacement Theology in the Church, which has continued, unabated, over the last 2000 years (approx.)!

    I resolve it by understanding what "salvation" meant to the Jews, particularly as described in the Prophets. "Salvation," for them, was a political salvation, in which the nation would be saved from their adversaries. It wasn't being thought of as an evangelical conversion, but more, as a coming to repentance by the nation, in order to be restored to God's blessings.

    So the political deliverance of Israel is directly associated with a spiritual renaissance in Israel. This is a key component of the "blessings and curses of the Law!" If Israel gets it right with God's Law, they will be blessed, and can be recovered from exile.

    Thus, when Paul speaks of the "salvation of all Israel," he is talking about a recovery of the nation in both a political and a spiritual sense. This is simultaneously a restoration of the nation, politically, as well as a return to God's laws, as expressed in Christ.

  3. #48
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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    In regard to salvation?


    And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:26,27

    Is that not a, "salvation," statement?
    Percho, have a read of this. An old member wrote it, ( wpm ) it explains what this saying and it’s not what most think. Anyway have a look. Blue

    >>>Romans 11:25-29 tells us: “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”

    This is a passage that has confused many Christians over the years. The reason for this seems to revolve around the phrase “all Israel shall be saved.” There are many that impute corporate salvation for natural Israel into this.

    But is Paul contradicting himself in his Romans 9-11 discourse? In one breath in Romans 9:28 he is saying “a remnant shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative), in the next, in Romans 11:26, he is saying “all Israel shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative).

    Paul is in no way teaching corporate salvation in Romans 11:23-26, as some would suggest, or else he would be reversing everything he has just taught in the preceding verses and chapters of this book (and his other Epistles) in regard to an elect remnant. Salvation was never secured on the grounds of race; it was always by grace through faith. Moreover, the Gospel opportunity in the New Testament is always shown to be equally open to all nationalities; this includes natural Israel.

    To arrive at the ‘corporate position’:

    • One has to totally ignore Paul’s overriding message of two types of Israeli in Romans 9–11, and throughout the whole book of Romans. Throughout, he is constantly differentiating between Israelis that are blind and Israelis that are elect.
    • Many fail to acknowledge that Paul has already established that the believing element within the overall physical nation of Israel is “a remnant.” Paul significantly uses Elijah's day were there were very few true Israelites as an example of the fact that God always has a remnant, regardless of how small (Romans 11:2-4), to reinforce this fact.
    • Many also seem to overlook Paul’s supporting evidence from the Old Testament Scripture (in Isaiah 59:20) that shows that the people in view are a spiritual segment of the overall whole who put their faith in Christ.

    In Romans 11:25-29, Paul is basically summing up everything he had just said previous in Romans 8–11 in regard to there being a chosen remnant within natural Israel that will be brought through in this intra-Advent period (while the Gentiles were being brought in). He saw a day when all that belonged to true Israel would finally be completed – that is why he uses the future tense.

    Dispensationalists fail to notice or ignore Romans 9:6-13. There Paul distinguishes between true Israel and national Israel: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

    There is no such thing as corporate salvation – not in the Old Testament nor in the New Testament. This is a modern theological innovation. Whilst no one could surely deny that an all-powerful God would have any difficulty in performing that, Scripture does not present salvation as a wholesale ethnic national experience. It is very much an individual thing and is open to both Jews and Gentiles equally. One just has to look at Hebrews 11 to see that. There, the Old Testament saints are seen to be justified in the same way we are today. Time after time it states: “By faith Abel” (Hebrews 11:4), “By faith Enoch” (Hebrews 11:5), “By faith Noah” (Hebrews 11:7), “By faith Abraham” (Hebrews 11:8), “By faith Isaac” (Hebrews 11:20), “By faith Jacob” (Hebrews 11:21), etc, etc. Here we see the personal aspect of salvation. It was like that before the cross. It is life that after the cross. Salvation was always by grace through faith.

    Romans 11:26 is simply saying that all who are going to be saved will be saved! There will no empty seats in eternity. All those that have been individually chosen of the Lord will come through for Christ. Romans 8:29–30 confirms: “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

    They have been graciously “predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” (Ephesians 1:11). Paul’s comments in Romans 11:26 come on the back of his defining “all Israel” in Romans 9:6-8. It would be foolish to ignore Paul’s definition of “all Israel” here and side with the plethora of modern man-made opinions. Romans 9:6-8 not only tells us what "all Israel" is, but it also tells us what it isn't. What Paul is getting at is: God’s eternal plan shall prevail and the true Israel of God (those of the household of faith) – in total – will be saved. Those that are chosen of God will come through – let us have no doubt. Remember, salvation is of the Lord. By the time Christ returns the full quantity of believers will be complete – those that have come to Christ in simple faith and true repentance. These are the company that are written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world. This is not a prophecy, as many modern-day preachers claim, it is simply an ongoing spiritual reality.<<<

    Ephesians 1:4–5: “he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.”

    Paul takes his contention “all Israel shall be saved” from the wording of Isaiah 59:20, stating: “as it is written.” It would seem prudent to look at this Old Testament passage and see what exactly the Old Testament prophet was anticipating, including identifying any limits or conditions attached to such to a prediction. Maybe we could better understand where Paul is coming from.

    Isaiah 59:20 says, “And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD.”

    Many Dispensationalists will highlight the last part of our reading, which promises unbroken favor upon ethnic Israelites, but seem to miss, ignore or conveniently overlook the actual extent of the company in view. It is not all natural Israelites. It is not an unqualified statement. It is a clear stipulation attached. Scripture is careful to attribute eternal favor to only those that are redeemed (whether Jew or Gentile) in Jacob. The reading states: “And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.” “Zion” (Sion), in Scripture, in reference to “Jacob,” relates to the elect – spiritual Israel. Please note: Isaiah 59:20 tells us that Christ the Messiah (the deliverer) come ultimately out of true faithful Israel (Zion), not natural just national Israel (Jacob).

    The wording of this Old Testament passage removes any ambiguity between Paul’s statement in Romans 9:28 that “a remnant shall be saved” and Romans 11:26 that “all Israel shall be saved.” The “all Israel” that “shall be saved” the writer is talking about here is clearly the spiritual Israel of natural Israel. This is seen in the fact that the writer inserts the important clause: “as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.” The promise in Romans 11:26 is therefore not directed at every natural Israelite. It is talking solely about the elect. They are the only ones that truly accept man’s Redeemer through repentance (a turning away from sin).

    Do Dispensationalists really believe that “all Israel” includes every ethnic Jew that died/dies in sin and unbelief? If not, then the term “all Israel” doesn’t refer to every natural Israeli or every Jew born of Hebrews stock. It has to mean something else.

    What percentage of Hebrew blood is needed to officially class a person as a true Israelite? Is it ½, ¼, 1/8 or a 1/16? What is more, can there be any Gentile blood mixed in there? The objective Bible student knows that salvation was never a genetic thing. In fact, it was never biological birth that designated a human being a child of God. Even in the Old Testament there were a lot of people who were not the blood offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who became Israelites. What is more, there were many blood Israelites that were rebellious and were off their father the devil. The fact is, God was never limited to the natural blood offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. While, He began with Abraham and his family, He has been adding Gentiles to them ever since.

    As we have previously found, Paul makes clear: “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel” (Romans 9:6). Messiah was prophesied to come to elect Zion, however, not all Jacob is Zion; only the remnant that “turn from transgression in Jacob.” This is the vital condition for participation in election. It is the penitent Israeli that belongs to true Israel. It is the penitent Israeli that will graciously be delivered by the deliverer. Once again, there is no salvation through race, as some intimate in regard to this, but rather grace.
    Listen to Paul in Romans 11:1-5:

    Q. “I say then, Hath God cast away his people?”

    A. “God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

    You can glean from Paul’s query that the faithfulness of God is at stake. The evidence that God had not rejected Israel back in Paul’s day is shown here in the fact that there was a small remnant of believing Jews (including himself) that had accepted Christ and therefore embraced the new covenant arrangement. Dispensationalists conveniently circumvent this with their fixation on the whole nation of natural Israel. They seem to imagine that God must be faithful to the whole physical nation, even though it was apostate, rejected Christ and nailed Him to a tree, in order for Him to be considered faithful to Israel. But that is not what Scripture says or demands.

    God had not cast away Israel in Paul’s day. He remained faithful to those who desired to embrace His only provision for sin and uncleanness. Even though most Israelites rejected Christ, those that were foreknown by God, and were true Israelites, came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. We should not miss this thought as we explore the remainder of his argument in Romans 9-11. This perfectly fits in with Romans 9:6. As Paul expands this argument on the salvation of Israel and tells us that all Israel shall be saved, he does it within the context of a faithful believing remnant of Israelis.

    Paul was tireless in demonstrating that God was a covenant-keeping-God. He shows that He did not break His Word or forsake His true people Israel. He was faithful in all His dealings with His elect. God did not wipe His hands clean of Israel at the first advent. No! He stayed committed to the believing element within national Israel. This was true Israel (Romans 9:6).

    Paul is careful to demonstrate God’s ongoing covenantal favor to Israel through the continuation of a faithful remnant in his day. He shows them to be part of the ongoing historic existence of true Israel, not some brand new faction. This is integral to his whole argument that God has not forsaken Israel.

    Paul support his argument by presenting himself as exhibit A. He volunteers himself as tangible proof of God’s continued grace toward Israel. We should recognize, there is no more compelling a spiritual argument than personal testimony. Paul proves that “God has hath not cast away his people” by presenting himself as an evidence of a chosen Israeli. God had not (nor has not) completely cast away Israel, Paul was living testimony of this nearly 2,000 years ago. Even though much of Israel rejected Christ, not all did. Thus, Paul is saying not all Israel rejected the Messiah.

    Please note, he did not present the continued survival of natural Israel as proof (which many mistakenly do today), no, but rather his own salvation. He presents his own credentials as “an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin,” as proof that God has not finished with Israel. Paul was showing that he was living evidence that God has not turned his back on all Israel.

    If the New Testament Church did not relate to true Israel then a question could have been put over the faithfulness of God. God would have indeed broken His promise never to forsake His people. But the promise of God were fully realized through a believing remnant of historical Israel, which morphed into the empowered new covenant global Church. Paul demonstrates the continuation of believing Israel by showing he is personally part of remnant Israel.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  4. #49
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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    I think it is critical to understand that God is in the business of restoring entire societies, and not just saving individuals. If he wants us saved as individuals, he certainly wants us to live and fellowship in a Christian society. He wants to preserve good society, and not just develop them for judgment!

    We all agree that Israel did not, in the end, achieve what God seems to have promised Abraham. Israel was to be a nation under God, united in serving the laws of God. However, Israel fell into apostasy, in the majority, and only a small remnant of faithful followers remained. God failed, it seems, to bring about a complete society for His faithful people to live in!

    So the question is: Did God intend this to be the end of Israel, the nation? Or, was this just a temporary situation, delaying final national judgment until other nations are given the same opportunity? If God had brought final judgment to Israel in Jesus' time, the hope of national salvation would be lost on all other nations to which the gospel would be preached! The hope of national Israel remains a critical part of the message of national grace to the nations of the world!

    While it is true that only a remnant of Christians remain among the Jews even today, it remains true that God's wish is to restore the entire society of a nation for these Christians to live in. If Israel has fallen to such a degree, they may certainly return to their original calling! This may indeed require a major judgment from God, to dispose of those Jews who resist a national conversion. But opportunity is still being given, by God, for individuals to convert even without a Christian nation to live in. However, it is my view that the hope of national salvation remain a part of the gospel. It will come through judgment, but it will come, I believe.

  5. #50

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Matt 1:21

    Was he going to save them from their sins or was he going to become the means by which they could save themselves from their sins?

    Do we
    essentially have to save ourselves by physically or mentally doing something?

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Matt 1:21

    Was he going to save them from their sins or was he going to become the means by which they could save themselves from their sins?

    Do we
    essentially have to save ourselves by physically or mentally doing something?
    Jesus did the exclusive work of making atonement for our sins. And he is the exclusive source of our righteousness.

    We make the choice to participate in his righteousness. Doing righteousness must not be confused with making atonement for our own sins. When we do good, it must be accompanied by the atonement for our sins.

    The only way this happens is if our righteousness is derived from the same source as our atonement: Jesus. If we do good, it must be *his* good.

    We know that God promised Abraham a *nation.* And we know that only a remnant of that nation has succeeded in pleasing God by converting to Christianity. How then can God restore the nation?

    What is holding the nation back is the resistance of the majority to choosing to convert to Christ, refusing to participate in the righteousness of Christ. So unless God wants to destroy the majority of the nation right now, God must endure Israel as a State until His purpose with the Christian remnant is finished.

    God will not impose His salvation on the whole nation. But in the end He will destroy the part of the nation that is resistant to His calling. And He will make the Christian remnant judges over Israel, so that what survives of Israel is built into a new Christian nation.

  7. #52

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    We know that God promised Abraham a *nation.* And we know that only a remnant of that nation has succeeded in pleasing God by converting to Christianity.
    God promised Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. This has happened. Most of those nations are majority non-Christian.

    God also promised that all nations on earth would be blessed through Abraham. This has happened too.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    We know that God promised Abraham a *nation.* And we know that only a remnant of that nation has succeeded in pleasing God by converting to Christianity.
    God promised Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. This has happened. Most of those nations are majority non-Christian.

    God also promised that all nations on earth would be blessed through Abraham. This has happened too.

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    God promised Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. This has happened. Most of those nations are majority non-Christian.

    God also promised that all nations on earth would be blessed through Abraham. This has happened too.
    I don't believe God has yet accomplished all He planned to accomplish. His promise to Abraham was to have a godly nation, descended from him. This seems to have fulfillment in ancient Israel. But Israel didn't last. Sin entered into the nation, and ultimately engulfed the nation. All that was left for God in the nation was a small remnant.

    And this is the path all nations take. God doesn't completely destroy nations, as long as there is something good still in them. And so He has not completely destroyed Israel. And He hasn't destroyed the many Christian nations, who also appeared to fulfil the Abrahamic promise, and yet did not last. These many Christian nations now appear to have gone the way of Israel. They have let sin in, and the majority have turned to sin. All that is left are remnants of Christians in these nations.

    So what we have is the plan God set forth for Israel and for the nations, to turn them into godly nations, or children of faith for Abraham. God wanted there to be Abraham's own descendants, to show the care we should have in raising our own families. But Abraham was also promised many other nations, to show the care we should have to aid other countries.

    The failure of all these nations does not indicate complete failure, because I don't believe the word of God can fail. God is able to bring judgment against these nations, and to reduce them to a manageable remnant, so as to rebuild those nations up into godly nations once again. If He has done it in the past, He can do it again. If Israel has committed, as a nation, to be under one God in the past, they can become a Christian nation in the future. And if there have been truly Christian nations, adopting a Christian Constitution, then these same nations can return to Christianity, following judgment.

    There are a number of significant prophecies in the OT Prophets that speak of the Age to Come, when Israel will return to being a godly nation. And there are prophecies that indicate that nations will also turn to becoming godly nations as well. We should not reduce salvation down to merely individual salvation. It is also important to want a godly society, where justice and compassion takes place. How can God not care about these things?

  9. #54
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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    God promised Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. This has happened. Most of those nations are majority non-Christian.

    God also promised that all nations on earth would be blessed through Abraham. This has happened too.
    Scripture outlined and applied against all human mortal history.....

    Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him

    Genesis 15:5 And the LORD brought Abraham forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

    Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

    Luke 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest

    Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together

    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

    Hebrews 10:9 where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh

    Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

    Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


    God's entire family partaking together.
    No veil. No division. No partition. No separation. No segregation.

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Scripture outlined and applied against all human mortal history.....

    Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him

    Genesis 15:5 And the LORD brought Abraham forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

    Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

    Luke 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest

    Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together

    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

    Hebrews 10:9 where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh

    Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

    Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


    God's entire family partaking together.
    No veil. No division. No partition. No separation. No segregation.
    However, the promise to Abraham did require *distinctions*--national distinctions. Unless they are segregated into "nations," the promise cannot be fulfilled. I believe that happened with Israel, the nation. And I believe that has been happening in the NT period with Christian nations.

    This is not to say that Christian remnants within nonChristian nations are unimportant. All Christians are important. I'm just saying that God is as concerned about *societies* as He is about *individuals.* Without the component of *nations,* the promises cannot be fulfilled.

    As much as all of this has been happening in history, I believe there is still an element that has to be fulfilled in the future, in the Millennial Age. I suppose that's difficult to discuss, because it's in the future--it isn't now. And we do realize that now is our priority--not prognostication.

    I just find it important to clarify what exactly God promised, so that we are on board His full program--not just part of it. If we only emphasize *individual salvation,* to the neglect of *saving society,* I don't think our message will be complete. It is both individual redemption as well as social reformation. Both elements are critical.

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    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    However, the promise to Abraham did require *distinctions*--national distinctions. Unless they are segregated into "nations," the promise cannot be fulfilled. I believe that happened with Israel, the nation. And I believe that has been happening in the NT period with Christian nations.

    This is not to say that Christian remnants within nonChristian nations are unimportant. All Christians are important. I'm just saying that God is as concerned about *societies* as He is about *individuals.* Without the component of *nations,* the promises cannot be fulfilled.

    As much as all of this has been happening in history, I believe there is still an element that has to be fulfilled in the future, in the Millennial Age. I suppose that's difficult to discuss, because it's in the future--it isn't now. And we do realize that now is our priority--not prognostication.

    I just find it important to clarify what exactly God promised, so that we are on board His full program--not just part of it. If we only emphasize *individual salvation,* to the neglect of *saving society,* I don't think our message will be complete. It is both individual redemption as well as social reformation. Both elements are critical.
    I think you are making something up that is divisive; that God is not devisive but all-inclusive in His teaching.

    Genesis 15:5 Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

    Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant"



    Seed is Christ and all those in him, regardless of nationalistic membership or racial ancestry as Galatians and Romans confirms.

    Stars are not divided and segregated into groups; it is all stars across the sky, symbolizing all of those numbered as the results of the covenant.

    The promise to Abraham, at it's basic tenant, was Jesus Christ.
    Not land.
    Not governments.
    Not religions.
    Not kingdoms.

    People spanning all of these, as the sands of the seas, who would benefit from Jesus Christ, indiscrimantently.

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Oklahoma - USA
    Posts
    564

    Cool Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    I think you are making something up that is divisive; that God is not devisive but all-inclusive in His teaching.

    Genesis 15:5 Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

    Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant"



    Seed is Christ and all those in him, regardless of nationalistic membership or racial ancestry as Galatians and Romans confirms.

    Stars are not divided and segregated into groups; it is all stars across the sky, symbolizing all of those numbered as the results of the covenant.

    The promise to Abraham, at it's basic tenant, was Jesus Christ.
    Not land.
    Not governments.
    Not religions.
    Not kingdoms.

    People spanning all of these, as the sands of the seas, who would benefit from Jesus Christ, indiscrimantently.
    God's promise to Abraham covers more than just Christ and personal salvation. There is a physical national component to God's promise that includes land and government (see Ezekiel 48). God there is dividing the land up for a future physical Israel. The time frame reference is after the living waters flow from the throne of God (see Ezekiel 47).
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  13. #58

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    As regards the gospel,
    they (who is "they")?
    are enemies of God for
    your (who is "your")?
    sake.

    But as regards election,
    they
    are beloved
    for the sake of their forefathers.
    For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

    Just as
    you
    were at one time disobedient to God
    but now have received mercy because of
    their
    disobedience,

    so
    they
    too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to
    you
    they
    also may receive mercy.

    For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

    And in this way
    all
    Israel will be saved, as it is written,
    The Deliverer will come from Zion,
    he will banish ungodliness from Jacob
    (Romans 11:28-32, 26)

    From the beginning of chapter 9, Paul is making a clear distinction between the natural seed of Abraham and the Gentiles. The above passage would make no sense (it would be totally illogical) if Paul was speaking only of those who were saved in Christ then, and of those who are now saved in Christ.

    For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
    So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

    Just as
    you
    were at one time disobedient to God
    but now have received mercy because of
    their
    disobedience,

    so
    they
    too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to
    you
    they
    also may receive mercy.

    (Romans 9:15-16; 11: 30-32)

    Given the absolutely clear distinction Paul makes between the natural unbelieving seed of Abraham and the believing Gentiles from chapter 9 onwards, It is totally illogical to read Romans 11:30-31 in any other way but to be referring to the same groups of people:

    "Just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
    so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy.
    (Romans 11:30-31])

    Paul states this is mystery (Rom 11:25).

    Methinks Paul knew that the son who served his father all the years would not enjoy the prodigal son receiving mercy, when the time comes.

    It's a pride thing, I think - because we think we are the prodigal son.

    Actually, it's the unbelieving natural seed of Abraham.

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    6,613

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    God's promise to Abraham covers more than just Christ and personal salvation. There is a physical national component to God's promise that includes land and government (see Ezekiel 48). God there is dividing the land up for a future physical Israel. The time frame reference is after the living waters flow from the throne of God (see Ezekiel 47).
    Your view misunderstand's Abraham's promise and Ezkiel's vision.

    The physical and govermental components and national separation were over and done with.

    The living waters have already flown from the throne of God fulfilling the feast of tabernacles, per John 4 and John 7.

    Therre will be no more dividing; Christ brought unity of the fold; unity of the people, and unity in one body; of all the people of God.

    All of the promises you mentioned, were completely and perfectly fulfilled in Christ at Calvary.

    If you continue to look for the things that the 1st Century Pharisees were looking for, that caused them to reject Jesus; and causes Jesus to correct them and explicitly tell them their expectation was wrong; you will remain looking for things that will never come true.

    Focus on Christ; and the cross; and what it did to fufiill all of the types and shadows of the O.T.; then you will see the absurdity of the idea of a future return to Judaism as mis-understandings of Ezekiel created.

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    854

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post

    The living waters have already flown from the throne of God fulfilling the feast of tabernacles, per John 4 and John 7.
    You say Tabernacles has been fulfilled. Most believe the last 3 feasts are yet to be fulfilled. So do you believe the Feasts of "Trumpets," "Day of Atonement," have already been fulfilled too?

    I guess I am not seeing what you are seeing on Tabernacles... is it possible for you to explain... I am not seeing it in the chapters you give.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post

    The living waters have already flown from the throne of God fulfilling the feast of tabernacles, per John 4 and John 7.
    You say Tabernacles has been fulfilled. Most believe the last 3 feasts are yet to be fulfilled. So do you believe the Feasts of "Trumpets," "Day of Atonement," have already been fulfilled too?

    I guess I am not seeing what you are seeing on Tabernacles... is it possible for you to explain... I am not seeing it in the chapters you give.

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