Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 65

Thread: the whole nation will be saved

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,111

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    My point is that I haven't seen a political system that is devoid of corruption. And corrupt political systems suppress righteousness.

    Prov 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

    Maybe I misunderstood. But I do hope you are not among those promoting the idea of a distinct Israel nation separated from the church when Christ returns? What is certain is that the unbelievers [Jew/Gentile] will be welcomed in God's kingdom. (Rev 21:27)
    I certainly do not propose an exaltation of Judaism along with Christianity in the Millennium! There's one path to salvation, and that is Christianity!

    Again, my view is that there have been many Christian nations throughout NT history. And yes, politics always includes corruption, because man is inherently corrupt, and leadership involves "dirty politics."

    But I would argue that God actually wanted nations to convert to Christianity, even knowing that system would be flawed, and filled with corruption. Nations actually go through cycles, sometimes somewhat righteous and at other times despicable and ripe for judgment.

    I believe God wants nations to convert to Christianity, just as He wants individuals to convert to Christianity. If He doesn't care for the nation, then He doesn't care for social justice. If He only cares for the individual conversion, and not for the conversion of the nation, then by default He is for corrupt politics, a corrupt justice system, corrupt courts, corrupt government, etc. And I don't believe God is like that.

    So all systems of government contain corruption, but the Christian system is more closely aligned with what God wants for a government and for society. Caring for the individual, and not caring about how he is treated in society is not like God, and not like the Prophets!

    Of course we're all against "dirty politics," including dirty politics in Christian nations! But we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater! What made Western nations great is their Christian politics, despite the many flaws. It was better than Islamic governments, and other forms of government that were not Christian. I believe that's what enabled Western nations to rise as the cream of the crop among nations at various times and places in history.

    But no, I don't promote a Jewish form of government for Israel any more than I promote an Islamic form of government for Iran! It is a Christian theocracy that Jesus promoted--the Kingdom of God. Before Christ came it was the Law of Moses that formed the politic for Israel. But now, in the NT era, it is Christianity that forms the politic for nations. That, after all, is what the Law prepared them for!

  2. #17

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Ezekiel 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

    If that were to take place tomorrow night in Jerusalem at midnight, please read the explanation in verses 21-27, and it was reported on all news channels all over the world; What would all the nations think?

    Verse 28 ASV And the nations shall know that I am Jehovah that sanctifieth Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

  3. #18

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Noeb I ask a hot ? in the NC thread.

  4. #19

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    When it is said that Ephraim, son of Joseph, would become a "multitude of nations," the meaning does not appear to be referring to actual nations. After Joseph Ephraim became the dominant tribe over Manasseh, and came to represent all the families of Israel, specifically the 10 northern tribes.

    To interpret this as if Ephraim is to become Gentile nations is far from the thought, and not what actually happened. In fact, when N. Israel separated from Judah in the south, God indicated they were not to remain that way forever. The Jewish People were destined to be a single nation, and not even 2 nations, let alone a "multitude of nations."

    That's why after the captivities the Jewish People were no longer distinguished as Judah and Israel. Rather, the territory of Judah then came to represent all of Israel. No longer was Ephraim the standard bearer for all Israel.

    And future prophecy indicates Israel will be a single nation when they are converted to Christianity. If your theology is built upon an errant view of what Ephraim became, then your prophetic application will be wrong also. Just my opinion...
    Aaah but you see why you are wrong is because the Hebrew does not say "multitude of nations" - it says fullness of the goyi.
    .

    Where in the Bible does goyi ever refer to Israel?

    The only way Ehpraim could become the fullness of the goyi is if he indeed represented the 10 Northern tribes who were exiled and scattered, and their descendants intermarried with the goyim, and they became untraceable among the nations.

    How do you suppose Abraham became the father of many nations? Just 12 nations? No, because the verse referring to Abraham's genetic descendants, and God making His covenant with Abraham's genetic descendants, comes just after the verse which states Abraham would (also become) the father of many nations.

    So let's look at this a different way:

    The New Covenant was promised to the house of Israel and ithe house of Judah (Jer 31:31 that's who the covenant is for).

    You cannot "decide" the New Covenant is for a group of people other than the house of Israel and the house of Israel - because God made the promise, and we have no right to include ourselves in it.

    How do Gentiles share in the New Covenant unless they are grafted into Israel?

    We are grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17).

    If we are grafted into Israel and share in the New Covenant promised to the house of Israel and ithe house of Judah, then who are we? Jews?

    Nope. Jews are ithe house of Judah.

    Your argument is based on the assumption that the mistranslation of Jacob's promise ("multitudes of nations" instead of ifullness of the goyi changes the meaning of the text to mean it's referring to the genetic descendants - the 10 Northern tribes and cannot be extended to include the goyi

    So your argument is actually a circular argument, because as you stated, Ephraim came to represent all 10 of the Northern tribes, and of Ephraim it was said that his seed would become ithe fullness of the goyi.

    Goyi or goyim are not Israelites by birth - and yet we become grafted into Israel. The term "Jew" is used by Paul as a generic term for Israel and he also said those who are Jews inwardly are the seed of Abraham.

    Therefore the New Covenant promise - which is for those to whom it was promised, namely, the house of Israel and the house of Judah, becomes our covenant too.

    We are now Israelites. The Olive tree represents Israel. We were grafted into it when we came to faith in Christ. If we are now Israelites we can only be either of the house of Judah or of the house of Israel, otherwise the New Covenant would not pertain to us. It's not promised to anyone else.

  5. #20

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. Jer 3:8

    For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
    And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret -- that ye may not be wise in your own conceits -- that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in; -------------------Question. After the grafting is done?

    Said of Ephraim in Gen 48:19. The seed (sg) of him (sg), he (sg) shall become, the fulness of nations.

    Here is something else I find interesting.

    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles (nations) be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved:

    For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


    All Israel shall be saved as it is written.

    And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. Jer 3:8

    For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
    And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret -- that ye may not be wise in your own conceits -- that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in; -------------------Question. After the grafting is done?

    Said of Ephraim in Gen 48:19. The seed (sg) of him (sg), he (sg) shall become, the fulness of nations.

    Here is something else I find interesting.

    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles (nations) be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved:

    For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


    All Israel shall be saved as it is written.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,111

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    Aaah but you see why you are wrong is because the Hebrew does not say "multitude of nations" - it says fullness of the goyi.
    .
    Where in the Bible does goyi ever refer to Israel?
    Eze 2.3 He said to me, “Son of man, I am sending you to the house of Israel, to rebellious nations who have rebelled against me; both they and their fathers have revolted against me to this very day.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    The only way Ehpraim could become the fullness of the goyi is if he indeed represented the 10 Northern tribes who were exiled and scattered, and their descendants intermarried with the goyim, and they became untraceable among the nations.
    Eze 37.22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and one king will rule over them all. They will never again be two nations and never again be divided into two kingdoms.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    How do you suppose Abraham became the father of many nations? Just 12 nations? No, because the verse referring to Abraham's genetic descendants, and God making His covenant with Abraham's genetic descendants, comes just after the verse which states Abraham would (also become) the father of many nations.
    I didn't say that Abraham became 12 nations! You are here arguing against a statement I did *not* make!

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    So let's look at this a different way:

    The New Covenant was promised to the house of Israel and ithe house of Judah (Jer 31:31 that's who the covenant is for).

    You cannot "decide" the New Covenant is for a group of people other than the house of Israel and the house of Israel - because God made the promise, and we have no right to include ourselves in it.
    That's false. Jesus made a covenant with his 12 apostles, to whom he gave the Great Commission, to go into all nations, making them disciples of this New Covenant. Paul most certainly applied the New Covenant communion to the Gentile Church along with the Jewish Church.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    How do Gentiles share in the New Covenant unless they are grafted into Israel?
    The New Covenant was made not just with Israel but with all nations. The New Covenant was the fulfillment of the promise God made with Abraham, to make him father of *all nations.* The New Covenant was not just for Israel, but for all nations who would embrace the faith of Abraham. The promise of Israel's inclusion in the New Covenant in Jer 31 was an assurance that despite Israel's recalcitrance, they would eventually be included in this Messianic salvation. This promise was given in a time before the Gentile Church was even known about!

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    We are grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17).

    If we are grafted into Israel and share in the New Covenant promised to the house of Israel and ithe house of Judah, then who are we? Jews?

    Nope. Jews are ithe house of Judah.
    Nope. Jews include all the tribes of Israel who merged in with those descended from the tribe of Judah. The term "Jews" does not mean just those descended from Judah. The etymology of the term may refer to Judah, but the history involves the important role the tribe of Judah played in the placement of the temple and in the restoration of the temple. Those gathered to the restored temple were all called "Jews," including those from all of the tribes of Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    Your argument is based on the assumption that the mistranslation of Jacob's promise ("multitudes of nations" instead of ifullness of the goyi changes the meaning of the text to mean it's referring to the genetic descendants - the 10 Northern tribes and cannot be extended to include the goyi
    "Nations" can mean Gentile nations or any plurality of nations, including Israel and Judah. I will try to consult with more sources to confirm this. But I'm pretty sure it's the case.

    You seem to use "nations" as a derogatory term for Gentiles. That is indeed how "nations" was sometimes used, when Israel was called to separate from the "heathen." But the word does *not* have to denote that, in all uses. It depends on context.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    So your argument is actually a circular argument, because as you stated, Ephraim came to represent all 10 of the Northern tribes, and of Ephraim it was said that his seed would become ithe fullness of the goyi.
    I agree that it seems to be a sort of strange rendition. But it is context that rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    Goyi or goyim are not Israelites by birth - and yet we become grafted into Israel. The term "Jew" is used by Paul as a generic term for Israel and he also said those who are Jews inwardly are the seed of Abraham.

    Therefore the New Covenant promise - which is for those to whom it was promised, namely, the house of Israel and the house of Judah, becomes our covenant too.

    We are now Israelites. The Olive tree represents Israel. We were grafted into it when we came to faith in Christ. If we are now Israelites we can only be either of the house of Judah or of the house of Israel, otherwise the New Covenant would not pertain to us. It's not promised to anyone else.
    We are most certainly not Israelites--those of us born outside of Jewish ethnicity, nor converts to Judaism! This is Replacement Theology, pure and simple. It is common in Church history, but I don't buy into it. Sorry! It would destroy God's word of promise to Abraham, that he would have a biological nation forever. It was a promise to his particular family. Other nations are only promised a common faith--not a common bloodline, nor a common ethnicity.

  7. #22

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I thought about posting this in the prophecy section, but this is really a matter of biblical consideration more than prophetic viewpoint. We read in Romans that Paul believes "all Israel" will be saved. The question is, Does Paul indicate all Jews will become Christians, or that the whole of Israel, within her boundaries, will be saved politically?
    I think Paul means a large part of the Jews. And this event has already happened: most Jews became Christian between 2000 and 1500 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Sorry! It would destroy God's word of promise to Abraham, that he would have a biological nation forever. It was a promise to his particular family. Other nations are only promised a common faith--not a common bloodline, nor a common ethnicity.
    There's a lot more children of Abraham than just the Jews. And Matthew 3:9 prophesied that new children of Abraham would be created. That includes us.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,111

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    I think Paul means a large part of the Jews. And this event has already happened: most Jews became Christian between 2000 and 1500 years ago.



    There's a lot more children of Abraham than just the Jews. And Matthew 3:9 prophesied that new children of Abraham would be created. That includes us.
    I of course wouldn't agree with that. Abraham was promised not just that he would father biological nations, but also many nations that would share his faith. This would include Semitic nations, as well as non-Semitic nations. But my question concerned whether Israel, the nation-state, is to be saved politically or spiritually?

    I don't believe the promise of Israel's restoration took place many centuries ago. I believe Paul identified the restoration of Israel with the 2nd Coming. How do you deal with that?

  9. #24

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I of course wouldn't agree with that. Abraham was promised not just that he would father biological nations, but also many nations that would share his faith. This would include Semitic nations, as well as non-Semitic nations. But my question concerned whether Israel, the nation-state, is to be saved politically or spiritually?

    I don't believe the promise of Israel's restoration took place many centuries ago. I believe Paul identified the restoration of Israel with the 2nd Coming. How do you deal with that?
    I think you're wrong. The "restoration of Israel" refers to a spiritual nation that includes all Christians.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    3,074
    Blog Entries
    64

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    I think you're wrong. The "restoration of Israel" refers to a spiritual nation that includes all Christians.
    Agree ... . . . . . ..

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    I think you're wrong. The "restoration of Israel" refers to a spiritual nation that includes all Christians.
    Agree ... . . . . . ..
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    3,074
    Blog Entries
    64

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    I think Paul means a large part of the Jews. And this event has already happened: most Jews became Christian between 2000 and 1500 years ago.



    There's a lot more children of Abraham than just the Jews. And Matthew 3:9 prophesied that new children of Abraham would be created. That includes us.
    Spot on. . . . . .. .
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    11,959

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    I think Paul means a large part of the Jews. And this event has already happened: most Jews became Christian between 2000 and 1500 years ago.
    How do you define most, and what are your sources?

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,111

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    I think you're wrong. The "restoration of Israel" refers to a spiritual nation that includes all Christians.
    I know you disagree with my own statements. The question was: "I believe Paul identified the restoration of Israel with the 2nd Coming. How do you deal with that?"

    You're just saying you disagree, and that's fine. But the point is, you're just disagreeing, and not answering the question. You're not dealing with the Scriptural defense of my position.

    Romans 11.25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
    “The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    27
    And this is my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”


    Same goes for you bluesky! How do you interpret the above passage? It appears the 2nd Coming and the restoration of Israel is synonymous.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    13,428
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    What is certain is that the unbelievers [Jew/Gentile] will be welcomed in God's kingdom. (Rev 21:27)
    Unbelievers welcome huh? Are murderers and rapists and Satan himself also welcome? Do you read what you post?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    11,959

    Re: the whole nation will be saved

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Unbelievers welcome huh? Are murderers and rapists and Satan himself also welcome? Do you read what you post?
    Yeah, how does someone reference a passage as proof that totally contradicts their statement?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 73
    Last Post: Mar 12th 2016, 08:22 AM
  2. Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved is Absolutely True
    By SavedByGraceByFait in forum Apologetics and Evangelism
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: Oct 24th 2013, 02:57 PM
  3. Replies: 21
    Last Post: Feb 7th 2012, 08:58 PM
  4. Replies: 125
    Last Post: Jan 4th 2012, 04:04 AM
  5. Replies: 343
    Last Post: Dec 13th 2011, 07:05 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •