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Thread: The 70 non-continous weeks of Daniel - new information

  1. #16
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    Re: The 70 non-continous weeks of Daniel - new information

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Can't agree to this for several reason.
    1) It doesn't make rational sense. To say something will be done in X number of weeks does not mean something will be done in X + Y weeks, unless Y = 0.
    2) The separation of 70 weeks into different sections does not imply they are non-consecutive. The idea of a non-continuous 70 Weeks, again, is irrational. Why not just say "in 70 + Weeks something will be done?"
    3) The Church Fathers interpreted this as a continuous period of time. Why try to out-think those who have gone before us? Why come up with modern remedies that elevate us above every other thinker in history?
    Actually let us consider this RATIONALLY.
    Your first charge is it is NOT rational to say something done in X number of weeks will not be done in X + Y.
    A false charge. If X speaks of a period while work is done, then we can say that the work will take X weeks. However if Y is the time required for parts to be shipped for example, then the TOTAL time is X+Y.
    Now if the work starts with X and then it stops whilst the required parts are ordered and then shipped, then X resumes once the parts come, then we RATIONALLY have a real world example of X = an amount, but the total being something else.
    The question then is what the FOCUS of X is about. For example IF you are paying for X weeks of labour, then you don't want to pay for Y weeks while waiting for parts. Therefore the TWO are separated out, as you will ONLY be charged for X regardless of the total length of time.

    2) Your second charge is that the separation of the 70 weeks in different sections does not imply they are consecutive.
    Here we differ as this certainly does imply a separation, however we possibly agree in that this could be understood either way. by itself the separation into 3 blocks does NOT mean that they are not consecutive. However to say the idea of the 670 weeks being non-continuous is irrational, is actually just repeating your point one. This is a FALSE claim. It is ENTIRELY rational. The question is whether the statements show us, one way or another.
    As to why not? One reason is that the Y weeks could be under someone else's control. For example the Jews need to rebuild the city, but they don't until Nehemiah comes along, roughly 90 years AFTER the work should have been completed. Some start counting from Nehemiah and others from Ezra as they see the LACK of work as therefore not being countable.
    So if the X weeks are God's timetable, then it makes the GAPS the responsibility of the Jews.

    3) Actually only the LATER ECFs, whom you seem to count as more correct, held to such a view. We KNOW that there reasoning is faulty as we can read what they say and see why it is wrong. Therefore IF the ECFs who claimed it was continuous were faulty then why should we accept what they say any more than someone today. In fact KNOWING it is faulty we should reject their basis and start fresh.

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    Re: The 70 non-continous weeks of Daniel - new information

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    In order to build there is a NEED for restoration. You cannot build if there is no one to do the building.
    Isa 44:28* who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and he shall fulfill all my purpose’; saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’”
    ...
    Isa 45:13* I have stirred him up in righteousness, and I will make all his ways level; he shall build my city and set my exiles free, not for price or reward,” says the LORD of hosts.

    And of course:
    Ezr 1:1* In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom and also put it in writing:

    What Word was that?
    Dan 9:2* in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.*

    This is your first clue.
    And here is the second:
    Dan 9:25* Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks.

    Notice it is RESTORE and BUILD, not only build. And it is from the Word going forth.


    Yes, and?
    OK. I gotcha. You mean the one who AUTHORIZED the building - Artaxerxes. Thanks. In all we are not far apart.

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    Re: The 70 non-continous weeks of Daniel - new information

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually let us consider this RATIONALLY.
    Your first charge is it is NOT rational to say something done in X number of weeks will not be done in X + Y.
    A false charge. If X speaks of a period while work is done, then we can say that the work will take X weeks. However if Y is the time required for parts to be shipped for example, then the TOTAL time is X+Y.
    Now if the work starts with X and then it stops whilst the required parts are ordered and then shipped, then X resumes once the parts come, then we RATIONALLY have a real world example of X = an amount, but the total being something else.
    The question then is what the FOCUS of X is about. For example IF you are paying for X weeks of labour, then you don't want to pay for Y weeks while waiting for parts. Therefore the TWO are separated out, as you will ONLY be charged for X regardless of the total length of time.
    No, what I'm saying is that if in Dan 9 we are told that there must be 70 Weeks in order for something to happen, we cannot say there must actually be 70 Weeks + 2000 years! You just can't slice up a defined period of time that must pass to see X happen. It would be bordering on dishonesty to say we must wait 490 years for something to happen, only to find out this was only part A. Part B will actually be 2000 more years!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    2) Your second charge is that the separation of the 70 weeks in different sections does not imply they are consecutive.
    No, I said the opposite. I said that the separation of the 70 Weeks into 3 separate sections does not imply these periods of time are *non-consecutive!* We can't have 7 Weeks, and then X amount of time, and then 62 Weeks, followed by Y amount of time, followed by a 70th Week. That doesn't follow.

    We can have a consecutive period of time divided up into 3 sections just like a Play with 3 Acts. Even a Play can be divided up with an intermission. But the 70 Weeks cannot have an intermission! The 70 Weeks must be consecutive!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Here we differ as this certainly does imply a separation, however we possibly agree in that this could be understood either way. by itself the separation into 3 blocks does NOT mean that they are not consecutive. However to say the idea of the 670 weeks being non-continuous is irrational, is actually just repeating your point one. This is a FALSE claim. It is ENTIRELY rational. The question is whether the statements show us, one way or another.
    As to why not? One reason is that the Y weeks could be under someone else's control. For example the Jews need to rebuild the city, but they don't until Nehemiah comes along, roughly 90 years AFTER the work should have been completed. Some start counting from Nehemiah and others from Ezra as they see the LACK of work as therefore not being countable.
    So if the X weeks are God's timetable, then it makes the GAPS the responsibility of the Jews.
    I see any rationale for "gaps" as being irrational. I don't care what your reason is for placing gaps in this period of time, it betrays the whole idea of a span of time we're supposed to wait until something happens. Any gaps in this time period renders the designated time false. To say something will happen in 2,490 years renders it false to say something will happen in 490 years.

    It would be different to say that it will take Jews 490 years to do something, and 2000 years for someone else to do something else. This assigns different time spans to different activities. But the 490 years refers not to certain people operating in a certain way, but rather, to a defined time span until certain things are accomplished.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    3) Actually only the LATER ECFs, whom you seem to count as more correct, held to such a view. We KNOW that there reasoning is faulty as we can read what they say and see why it is wrong. Therefore IF the ECFs who claimed it was continuous were faulty then why should we accept what they say any more than someone today. In fact KNOWING it is faulty we should reject their basis and start fresh.
    The problem is, if the Church Fathers got it wrong when they followed more nearly after the time the gospel was established, why should we expect God will be any more successful with us? I of course agree that they couldn't have it all right, for the simple reason that they disagreed on some of the finer points. But on the matter of the consecutive nature of the 70 Weeks, I think most of the Church Fathers were probably agreed. What more information do we have today that the Church Fathers didn't have?

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    Re: The 70 non-continous weeks of Daniel - new information

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I have come to understand the 70 weeks are not continuous and besides the break between the 7 and 62 there is also a break between the 69th and 70th week as indicated by Daniel. Is there a reason why Daniel separate the weeks the way he does?

    Though despite the masses I was always skeptical about translating weeks to weeks of years. So my adjusted understanding of the prophesy does not change the fact that the 70 weeks are 490 DAYS nor these other beliefs.

    70 Weeks = 490 Days

    The 70th week = Feast of Tabernacles

    The term "cut off" did not represent crucifixion

    Note however to prove this out I did not look at history rather had to look into the future. So I tried to come up with a future 490 period, a period in which I knew had to fit between Jewish holidays and end with Tabernacles. However close I could not and came up short the closest would be 489 days between Pentecost and the end of Tabernacles. Very close but not exact AND I was negating the division between 7 and 62 weeks which there was not between these Holidays. I always leaned to the fact that the only 7 week period in scripture was the time between Passover and Pentecost.

    The 7 weeks of the prophesy is no doubt the time between Passover and Pentecost.

    So always maintaining the belief that the 70 weeks was a continuous time with no breaks which did not compute I had to focus on this 7 week period and go from there. The problem I confronted was that adding 62 weeks to the 7 weeks after Passover just came into the middle of a month, a middle of nowhere that I thought it needed. So then the only solution is that the 70 weeks are NOT continuous.

    The 70 weeks are NOT a continuous time frame

    What confirmed my thought was first the 7 weeks between Passover and Pentecost does not include the actual day of Passover. So then is it possible the prophesy then would not include the actual day of Pentecost AND is this the reason for Daniel to state the 69 weeks separated into 7 and 62 weeks. Between the 7 and 62 is the day of Pentecost. This will become important for the total calculation.

    The reason for the 69 weeks divided into 7 and 62 is that the day of Pentecost is between and not counted.

    Ok, so I still had the 69th week landing in the middle of nowhere and far away from Tabernacles So I started to do future date calculations of days between Passover to the end of Tabernacles. The totals were common to 538 days or every few years it was 567 days. Knowing that Passover day was not counted and realizing the Pentecost was to be omitted I subtracted two days to come up with 536 or 565 days. Then the alarm bell rang as there was a biblical time frame which matched for there are 75 days between 565 - 490 days. The 75 days is the time between 1260 the completion of the reign of the second beast and Christ's return on the 1335th day. So now I incorporated the 75 days into the 70 week prophesy.

    Passover ---- 7 weeks ---- Pentecost ---- 62 weeks + 75 days (including one week) ---- End of the Feast of Tabernacles = 565 days (not to include the actual day of Pentecost again hence the division 7/62).

    Now with the prior understanding that the term Messiah being "cut off" does not represent the time of the crucifixion but rather a time in which Christ will be cut off from the inhabitants of the world whereby they will search for these days but will not be able to be found. The door has been shut for them the remainder of these days. God however will confirm his previous Abrahamic Covenant to the promised remnant of Israel for the last week, the FOT.

    Passover ---- 7 weeks ---- Pentecost ---- 62 weeks (Messiah cut off 69th week also the 1260th day) ---- 75 days ---- End of the Feast of Tabernacles = the end of the 70th week also the 1335th day.

    The period between the time Messiah is cut off till Tabernacles is not upon thy people Israel. The remnant of Israel is not found upon the earth as with the completion of the 69th week (1260th day) they have been overcome thru war and killed off by the beast and are now upon Mt. Zion with Christ waiting their return with him (Rev 14.) which will occur on the 1335th day.

    After the period in which the Messiah is cut off up till the last week of Tabernacles is not upon thy people Israel nor part of the 70 weeks. They are no longer upon the earth.

    As for the future year which has a total calculation of 567 (minus 2) between Passover and the following end of Tabernacles are many. However there would only be a couple of possibilities if you took that the church age is a 2000 year period from the year of the death of Christ which in itself is uncertain. The goal here is not to pin point the year in which Christ shall return but to align the understanding of the 70 weeks to future BIBLICAL events thus convincing the reader.


    God Bless.
    We are among a very small minority that the 70 week prophecy can actually be fulfilled in a 70 week timeline broken down into 3, possibly 4 segments of 7,62 and 1 week. It does not mean that we are wrong or right. As you and I know, it is an exploratory process. So let me try to briefly summarize my current explorations.
    1. The prophecy has a dual fulfilment of both 490 years and 490 days. The wording of the prophecy shows little similarity to other prophecies. The closest I can think of is the 390 & 40 day prophecy of Eze 4. The inner workings of the time period is one of the least documentable periods of history.
    2. That there are at least 3 definable periods that are found within the prophecy. A specific event is said to take place in the middle of the last period of one week, with other definable events are dais to take place "after the sacrifices cease". This is easy to believe concerning a 7 year period of time, but much harder for a simple 7 day period. But the 3.5 days of the 2 witnesses lying dead, gives credence to there being a split in the middle of these last 7 days.
    [Let me concentrate on just the 490 day aspect].

    3. The first period of 7 weeks is defined as being from the "commandment to restore" unto messiah the prince. There just seems to be an implied difference between the words "restore" and "rebuild". If I bought an old house in which I planned to restore, the initial phase of that restoration process would involve tearing down the old and unusable to make way for the new. Let us not forget that Jerusalem AND the temple is at the heart of the prophecy. I see the commandment to restore Jerusalem as the period of time in which the old is removed, to make way for the new. It seems to be an unnecessary redundancy for restore to also mean rebuild. The period from Passover to Pentecost would correlate to the seals and trumpets, covering the time of Jacobs trouble.

    4. To fulfill the law of the feasts, requires all of Israel to be in Jerusalem during the feasts of unleavened bread, weeks, and Tabernacles. I see the last week of the 70 as finding fulfilment in the feast of Tabernacles, the last of the yearly feasts. This would mean that the 62 weeks would find fulfilment somewhere in between.

    5. Once the destructive phase of the restoration is complete, a second commandment would then be issued to begin rebuilding Jerusalem. In the phrase "restore and rebuild...", we find the second use of the word build in the latter half of v.25:

    *[[Dan 9:25]] KJV* ...the street shall be BUILT again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    Remember, this (literal) 62 week period of 434 days takes place AFTER the initial 7 week period of destruction, but before the job is done at the end of the 70th week. AND the first 7 weeks ended with the appearance of "messiah the prince". This correlates to the 7th trumpet where the kingdom of God has come. What else happens at the end of the 69th week? (Another?) Messiah figure comes on the scene and is cut off. What do I personally see in this? I see this as the revealing of the man of sin. Let's not forget that the man of sin brings great deception. So great a deception that the world does not recognize it for what it is for some period of time. I also see another possibility.

    In DANIEL 7, three kings lose their dominion for a season and a time. Daniel 7 says that another king shark arise to rule the kingdom of the beast, AFTER the little horn meets his demise. Daniel 8 reveals how this king expands his rule to the west, north and south. A Jewish year can be 50 or 54 weeks (354 or 383 days). A season is 12.5 to 13 weeks. Added together, a year and a season then becomes about 63 weeks, very close to our 62 weeks of the 70 week prophecy. These are just some of my explorations.

    Blessings
    The PuP

  5. #20
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    Re: The 70 non-continous weeks of Daniel - new information

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Your calculation based on Feasts has no scriptural backing.
    Let's see..... the 70th week though interpreted as 7 years can be should be translated to a 7 day period. You must agree that it can be translated to a 7 day period.

    AND we know that biblically I can only think of one 7 day period in scripture relating to "thy" people Israel, the FOT. Thus to make such a comment is based on learned bias.

    Furthermore here also we see the 7 weeks feast and the FOT mentioned. This is the 7 and the 1 week in Daniel's prophecy. Per "thy" people!!!!

    9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.
    10 And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the Lord thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the Lord thy God, according as the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:
    11 And thou shalt rejoice before the Lord thy God, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are among you, in the place which the Lord thy God hath chosen to place his name there.
    12 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt: and thou shalt observe and do these statutes.
    13 Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou hast gathered in thy corn and thy wine:


    Your calculation based on Feasts has no scriptural backing.
    The Covenant, Law of Moses, the FOT, and Daniel.

    Deut
    10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,
    11 When all Israel is come to appear before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.
    12 Gather the people together, men and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the Lord your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

    20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.


    Daniel mentions these same words.

    4 And I prayed unto the Lord my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
    11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
    12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
    13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

    And then we see a one week period wherein God confirms the promised covenant. The FOT wherein it will be confirmed and the remnant 144,000 rejoice.

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

    Your calculation based on Feasts has no scriptural backing.
    Do you need more?

  6. #21
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    Re: The 70 non-continous weeks of Daniel - new information

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    We are among a very small minority that the 70 week prophecy can actually be fulfilled in a 70 week timeline broken down into 3, possibly 4 segments of 7,62 and 1 week. It does not mean that we are wrong or right. As you and I know, it is an exploratory process. So let me try to briefly summarize my current explorations.
    1. The prophecy has a dual fulfilment of both 490 years and 490 days. The wording of the prophecy shows little similarity to other prophecies. The closest I can think of is the 390 & 40 day prophecy of Eze 4. The inner workings of the time period is one of the least documentable periods of history.
    2. That there are at least 3 definable periods that are found within the prophecy. A specific event is said to take place in the middle of the last period of one week, with other definable events are dais to take place "after the sacrifices cease". This is easy to believe concerning a 7 year period of time, but much harder for a simple 7 day period. But the 3.5 days of the 2 witnesses lying dead, gives credence to there being a split in the middle of these last 7 days.
    [Let me concentrate on just the 490 day aspect].

    3. The first period of 7 weeks is defined as being from the "commandment to restore" unto messiah the prince. There just seems to be an implied difference between the words "restore" and "rebuild". If I bought an old house in which I planned to restore, the initial phase of that restoration process would involve tearing down the old and unusable to make way for the new. Let us not forget that Jerusalem AND the temple is at the heart of the prophecy. I see the commandment to restore Jerusalem as the period of time in which the old is removed, to make way for the new. It seems to be an unnecessary redundancy for restore to also mean rebuild. The period from Passover to Pentecost would correlate to the seals and trumpets, covering the time of Jacobs trouble.

    4. To fulfill the law of the feasts, requires all of Israel to be in Jerusalem during the feasts of unleavened bread, weeks, and Tabernacles. I see the last week of the 70 as finding fulfilment in the feast of Tabernacles, the last of the yearly feasts. This would mean that the 62 weeks would find fulfilment somewhere in between.

    5. Once the destructive phase of the restoration is complete, a second commandment would then be issued to begin rebuilding Jerusalem. In the phrase "restore and rebuild...", we find the second use of the word build in the latter half of v.25:

    *[[Dan 9:25]] KJV* ...the street shall be BUILT again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    Remember, this (literal) 62 week period of 434 days takes place AFTER the initial 7 week period of destruction, but before the job is done at the end of the 70th week. AND the first 7 weeks ended with the appearance of "messiah the prince". This correlates to the 7th trumpet where the kingdom of God has come. What else happens at the end of the 69th week? (Another?) Messiah figure comes on the scene and is cut off. What do I personally see in this? I see this as the revealing of the man of sin. Let's not forget that the man of sin brings great deception. So great a deception that the world does not recognize it for what it is for some period of time. I also see another possibility.

    In DANIEL 7, three kings lose their dominion for a season and a time. Daniel 7 says that another king shark arise to rule the kingdom of the beast, AFTER the little horn meets his demise. Daniel 8 reveals how this king expands his rule to the west, north and south. A Jewish year can be 50 or 54 weeks (354 or 383 days). A season is 12.5 to 13 weeks. Added together, a year and a season then becomes about 63 weeks, very close to our 62 weeks of the 70 week prophecy. These are just some of my explorations.

    Blessings
    The PuP
    My best guess for the timing of the 62 weeks would be from T'isha B'Av until Rosh Hoshanah(Yom teruah) the following year, exactly 62 weeks. T'Isha B'Av is the anniversary date of the destructing of the first 2 temples.

    Blessings
    The PuP

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    Re: The 70 non-continous weeks of Daniel - new information

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Let's see..... the 70th week though interpreted as 7 years can be should be translated to a 7 day period. You must agree that it can be translated to a 7 day period.

    AND we know that biblically I can only think of one 7 day period in scripture relating to "thy" people Israel, the FOT. Thus to make such a comment is based on learned bias.

    Furthermore here also we see the 7 weeks feast and the FOT mentioned. This is the 7 and the 1 week in Daniel's prophecy. Per "thy" people!!!!

    9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.
    10 And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the Lord thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the Lord thy God, according as the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:
    11 And thou shalt rejoice before the Lord thy God, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are among you, in the place which the Lord thy God hath chosen to place his name there.
    12 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt: and thou shalt observe and do these statutes.
    13 Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou hast gathered in thy corn and thy wine:




    The Covenant, Law of Moses, the FOT, and Daniel.

    Deut
    10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,
    11 When all Israel is come to appear before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.
    12 Gather the people together, men and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the Lord your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

    20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.


    Daniel mentions these same words.

    4 And I prayed unto the Lord my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
    11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
    12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
    13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

    And then we see a one week period wherein God confirms the promised covenant. The FOT wherein it will be confirmed and the remnant 144,000 rejoice.

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:



    Do you need more?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    My best guess for the timing of the 62 weeks would be from T'isha B'Av until Rosh Hoshanah(Yom teruah) the following year, exactly 62 weeks. T'Isha B'Av is the anniversary date of the destructing of the first 2 temples.

    Blessings
    The PuP
    But Gentlemen - Brothers, where in the prophesies of Daniel are the Feasts used for calculating the time in prophecy? The time periods are stated. It starts with the command to BUILD Jerusalem and its Wall. Seven sevens later this building is completed though the road was very troubled. Then, 62 sevens later, history shows that Messiah came and was cut off "but not for Himself". As we may not interpret any prophecy privately, where are the Feasts in this? If there is any time in Israel's history that the Feasts were absolutely ABSENT, it was while they were in Babylon as captives.

    By ross3421's own pen (posting #7, first paragraph) he denies that the prophecies of Numbers and Isaiah and Ezekiel, where all are commanded that 1 day is a year, are valid because they belong to another context. By this same rule where are the feasts in the context of Daniel 9. Where are the feasts in Daniel at all? And where, in the whole Bible is prophecy calculation based on feasts? I do not deny that the Feasts are Types and Shadows of events, but where are they used to calculate a time? Is not HISTORY the proving ground of prophecy? Of the hundreds of prophecies already fulfilled, which one was determined by the Feasts? Or is this purely private interpretation?

    Much more, the prophecies of Numbers, Isaiah and Ezekiel all pertain to Israel's chastisement and recovery. Shall they not pertain to the 70 seven's of Israel's subjection to a Gentile king, their troubles building a Temple and City that were destroyed as chastisement, and their troubles and chastisement for cutting off their Messiah? Daniel 9:24-27 is the TIME to reach recovery and anoint a "Most Holy One". In history the 69 seven is accomplished. The Messiah is cut off. The 70th seven has not dawned as NOTHING in history remotely fulfill the events of the prophecy.

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    Re: The 70 non-continous weeks of Daniel - new information

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It starts with the command to BUILD Jerusalem and its Wall. Seven sevens later this building is completed though the road was very troubled.
    First off.... the commandment does not say to rebuild the city just the street and wall.

    Troublous time? Sure sounds like a "time of trouble" does it not? Danial himself explains this time further in chapter 12. A time in the future not the past.!

    Dan 12
    And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    their troubles building a Temple and City that were destroyed as chastisement, and their troubles and chastisement for cutting off their Messiah?
    Confusion. The building in the 7 and 62 weeks is destroyed in the 70th week AFTER the 69th week and the Messiah being cut off? Then if the 69 weeks are accomplished what city will be destroyed in the 70th week? And it sure is taking a long time for chastisement if it was for something thousands of years ago?

    Messiah will be cut off in the future from hearing the word of the Lord. The door has been shut, cut off from the inhabitants of the earth..

    10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.
    11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
    12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.



    Daniel points to this same time.

    4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro,


    By ross3421's own pen (posting #7, first paragraph) he denies that the prophecies of Numbers and Isaiah and Ezekiel, where all are commanded that 1 day is a year,
    In each the prophet explains the years according to days. Daniel DOES NOT! It is in error and private interpretation to make such assumption.

    And where, in the whole Bible is prophecy calculation based on feasts? I do not deny that the Feasts are Types and Shadows of events, but where are they used to calculate a time? Is not HISTORY the proving ground of prophecy? Of the hundreds of prophecies already fulfilled, which one was determined by the Feasts? Or is this purely private interpretation?
    Events in Israel's past were thus denoted by feasts, Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacles we all based on past events and commandments. For example Passover in the OT then was replicated to the timing of the death of Christ. This is bible 101. Past events in Israel's history marked these days Whereas future events will replicate. As Tabernacles will signal Christ's return.

    In addition in the future we will have one arise that will claim he is the true Passover Lamb and thus the feasts need to align with his reign and rule.

    11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

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    Re: The 70 non-continous weeks of Daniel - new information

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. I gotcha. You mean the one who AUTHORIZED the building - Artaxerxes. Thanks. In all we are not far apart.
    No I don't mean Artaxerxes - I mean God!
    However God used Cyrus as BOTH Isaiah prophesies and Ezra confirms, and connects to the prophecy of Jeremiah which Daniel had been reading.
    Scripture confirms scripture.

  10. #25
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    Re: The 70 non-continous weeks of Daniel - new information

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, what I'm saying is that if in Dan 9 we are told that there must be 70 Weeks in order for something to happen, we cannot say there must actually be 70 Weeks + 2000 years! You just can't slice up a defined period of time that must pass to see X happen. It would be bordering on dishonesty to say we must wait 490 years for something to happen, only to find out this was only part A. Part B will actually be 2000 more years!
    I showed you how your claim about the 70 weeks was wrong.
    There are 70 weeks is correct, but the 70 weeks speaks of what will happen DURING the 70 weeks. It doesn't speak about what happens OUTSIDE the 70 weeks NOR what happens between the THREE blocks.
    You follow the idea that there was a delay of 90 years BEFORE the 70 weeks starts, THEREFORE you don;t actually accept it is a LIMITED 70 weeks. Rather you have a GAP at the START even though the point of the WHOLE prayer was that the 70 years was about to END.
    Also I am not slicing up something which is NOT ALREADY sliced.
    So from the one thing to the other AS STATED in the prophecy takes the length of time as STATED in the prophecy.

    No, I said the opposite. I said that the separation of the 70 Weeks into 3 separate sections does not imply these periods of time are *non-consecutive!* We can't have 7 Weeks, and then X amount of time, and then 62 Weeks, followed by Y amount of time, followed by a 70th Week. That doesn't follow.
    Actually it very much does follow. What otherwise would be the purpose of the BREAK being stated?

    We can have a consecutive period of time divided up into 3 sections just like a Play with 3 Acts. Even a Play can be divided up with an intermission. But the 70 Weeks cannot have an intermission! The 70 Weeks must be consecutive!
    It is indeed possible, and there is NO reason why the 70 weeks CANNOT have an intermission. That is YOUR demand, but it is NOT a RATIONAL one. On the contrary it is more likely that there IS a break between the 3 acts. This is why a play is SPLIT into separate acts.

    I see any rationale for "gaps" as being irrational. I don't care what your reason is for placing gaps in this period of time, it betrays the whole idea of a span of time we're supposed to wait until something happens. Any gaps in this time period renders the designated time false. To say something will happen in 2,490 years renders it false to say something will happen in 490 years.
    Actually there are statements for what will happen for by the END of the 70 weeks but there are also statements about the 3 blocks. We are NOT told we have to wait for the ENTIRE 70 weeks for certain things to happen. In fact we are told various things related to the SEPARATE blocks.

    It would be different to say that it will take Jews 490 years to do something, and 2000 years for someone else to do something else. This assigns different time spans to different activities. But the 490 years refers not to certain people operating in a certain way, but rather, to a defined time span until certain things are accomplished
    .
    The statement is not made as to WHO does what, but rather one thing will occur after 7 weeks, something else will occur over 62 weeks, and then other things in relation to 1 week.
    So there are different time spans assigned to different things.

    The problem is, if the Church Fathers got it wrong when they followed more nearly after the time the gospel was established, why should we expect God will be any more successful with us? I of course agree that they couldn't have it all right, for the simple reason that they disagreed on some of the finer points. But on the matter of the consecutive nature of the 70 Weeks, I think most of the Church Fathers were probably agreed. What more information do we have today that the Church Fathers didn't have?
    So the ECFs who had teaching from the disciples got things more wrong than the ECFs who lived 300 years later?
    As the ECFs didn't agree on lots of things, especially the anti-nicene with the post-nicene so we CANNOT claim a uniform view.
    As to information we have, we have a HUGE amount more than people like Eusebius or Augustine.
    We have information of the time of Daniel, and of the kings of that time for example, this is especially important in trying to calculate time frames.

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    Re: The 70 non-continous weeks of Daniel - new information

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I showed you how your claim about the 70 weeks was wrong.
    There are 70 weeks is correct, but the 70 weeks speaks of what will happen DURING the 70 weeks. It doesn't speak about what happens OUTSIDE the 70 weeks NOR what happens between the THREE blocks.
    You follow the idea that there was a delay of 90 years BEFORE the 70 weeks starts, THEREFORE you don;t actually accept it is a LIMITED 70 weeks. Rather you have a GAP at the START even though the point of the WHOLE prayer was that the 70 years was about to END.
    Also I am not slicing up something which is NOT ALREADY sliced.
    So from the one thing to the other AS STATED in the prophecy takes the length of time as STATED in the prophecy.
    No, I'm not delaying the 70 Weeks by 90 years! That's just your own thoughts. My system begins with Artaxerxes' decree in 457 BC, beginning the 70 Weeks immediately.

    You either read the 70 Weeks continuously, or you don't have a 70 Weeks period at all! If you add periods of time to the 70 Weeks you have 70 Weeks plus X!

    The prophecy does, in fact, speak of what happens *after* the 70 Weeks, because the 70 Weeks prophecy is speaking of what this period of time will lead up to. It will lead up to the destruction of Jewish religion, the desolation of both Jerusalem and the temple. So if Daniel said it will require 70 Weeks to lead up to this result, then this is the exact time period that must pass in order for this to take place. And it was.

    The fact the 70 Weeks is sliced up into 3 blocks does not argue against the consecutive nature of the 70 Weeks. They are used to explain things that happen *during* the 70 Weeks, as opposed to what the 70 Weeks, as a whole, will lead to. The 70 Weeks will lead to the 6 things Messiah will accomplish in Dan 9.24. And the 3 blocks have various things happen within them.

    The 1st block has the city of Jerusalem rebuilt. The 2nd block is a period leading to the arrival of Messiah. The 3rd block contains the death of Messiah, and the covenant assuring the completion of the 6 things. Together, all these things lead to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the termination of Jewish worship under the Law. According to Jesus, his ministry led to the *generation* that would see the destruction of the temple.

    You apparently insist that what is irrational is rational. Good luck with that! You don't use the 70 Weeks like a time clock, which is normally how it should be used. So you can rationalize anything away, if you want.

  12. #27

    Re: The 70 non-continous weeks of Daniel - new information

    Powerful prophesy!


    62 weeks = 2nd temple (445-19 BC)
    7 weeks = Herod's temple to Crucifixion (John 2:20)
    1 week = Jewish war (66-73 AD)

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    Re: The 70 non-continous weeks of Daniel - new information

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Nelson View Post
    Powerful prophesy!


    62 weeks = 2nd temple (445-19 BC)
    7 weeks = Herod's temple to Crucifixion (John 2:20)
    1 week = Jewish war (66-73 AD)
    In my view, the 7 weeks better fit Artaxerxes' decree and the 49 year period that followed. Herod took control of the 2nd temple in 39 BC and initiated the rebuilding project in 20 BC. He finished the project in 63 AD. How do you get a 49 year period out of that?
    https://www.gotquestions.org/Herod-third-temple.html

    But it isn't difficult to see the restoration of the city taking place from 457-408 BC. Remember, this was a restoration of the city.

    Dan 9.25 Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One.

    You seem to be looking at Herod's restoration of the temple--not the city? But from 457 to 408 BC we do see the work of Nehemiah in rebuilding the walls of the city, with restoration of the city itself likely following.

    Although the temple was rebuilt earlier in the time of Zerubbabel, Artaxerxes pursued the continuation of the original mandate of Cyrus to complete both the temple and the city. Artaxerxes mandated the appointment of city magistrates, and ultimately had Nehemiah restore the walls of Jerusalem, along with the restoration of a more complete temple worship in the city. That's why I use Artaxerxes' mandate in 457 BC as the beginning date of the 70 Weeks.

    Ezra 7.25 And you, Ezra, in accordance with the wisdom of your God, which you possess, appoint magistrates and judges to administer justice to all the people of Trans-Euphrates—all who know the laws of your God.

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    Re: The 70 non-continous weeks of Daniel - new information

    So in Rev 11 we see a reference to a "street" in the holy city wherein the 2W will lie.

    This would have to be the same street which was rebuilt during the first 69 weeks commanded by Ezra, Cyrus or whomever some two thousand years ago? If not then the theory of the 70 weeks starting at that point fails.


    11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
    2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
    3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
    6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
    7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
    8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


    So the street built in Dan 9 needs to be the same street in Rev 11. So is the street (wall, city) rebuilt 2500 years ago still standing? If the street (wall, city) needs to be rebuilt due to another destruction then the 70 weeks would start after that. How about 70AD, how about another future destruction?


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    Re: The 70 non-continous weeks of Daniel - new information

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, I'm not delaying the 70 Weeks by 90 years! That's just your own thoughts. My system begins with Artaxerxes' decree in 457 BC, beginning the 70 Weeks immediately.
    Which means you have DELAYED the prophecy by 90 years.
    When was Daniel praying?
    Around 538 BC.
    What was he praying about?
    The 70 years which was due to finish in a couple of years - 536 BC.
    What was the 70 x 7 about?
    The seven fold punishment for the people who have NOT returned to God.
    This was about to START.
    There is NO 80 years gap between Daniel having the vision and the 70 weeks starting with Artaxerxes Longimans.
    You are INSERTING a gap CONTRARY to your claims of NO gap.
    457 BC is around 80 years later. 445 BC which is when the city wall was built was 90 years later.

    You either read the 70 Weeks continuously, or you don't have a 70 Weeks period at all! If you add periods of time to the 70 Weeks you have 70 Weeks plus X!
    Sorry but fallacious reasoning.
    There is ZERO requirement for the 70 weeks to be continuous.
    What is REQUIRED is that the EXPLANATION of what occurs DURING those 70 weeks MATCHES with what happens.
    Those 70 weeks are a period of time for things to come to an Anointed one and for the Jews to respond.

    The prophecy does, in fact, speak of what happens *after* the 70 Weeks, because the 70 Weeks prophecy is speaking of what this period of time will lead up to. It will lead up to the destruction of Jewish religion, the desolation of both Jerusalem and the temple. So if Daniel said it will require 70 Weeks to lead up to this result, then this is the exact time period that must pass in order for this to take place. And it was.
    So BIZARRE.
    God NOWHERE said that the Jews religion was to be destroyed. Nor did He annul it.
    Nor does the 70 weeks lead to the destruction of Jerusalem and the sanctuary.
    The problem with such a claim is that based on 457 BC start then you have a 34 AD time when the temple is DESTROYED. Almost everyone agrees that didn;t happen until 70 AD, so your 70 weeks STARTS 80 years TOO late and then ends 36 years TOO early.

    The fact the 70 Weeks is sliced up into 3 blocks does not argue against the consecutive nature of the 70 Weeks. They are used to explain things that happen *during* the 70 Weeks, as opposed to what the 70 Weeks, as a whole, will lead to. The 70 Weeks will lead to the 6 things Messiah will accomplish in Dan 9.24. And the 3 blocks have various things happen within them.
    Actually it does. By itself it is NOT conclusive, but it is DEFINITELY an argument for it. Otherwise there is NO reason for the splits.

    The 1st block has the city of Jerusalem rebuilt. The 2nd block is a period leading to the arrival of Messiah. The 3rd block contains the death of Messiah, and the covenant assuring the completion of the 6 things. Together, all these things lead to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the termination of Jewish worship under the Law. According to Jesus, his ministry led to the *generation* that would see the destruction of the temple.
    Problem for you, the city was NOT rebuilt in the 1st block.
    Second problem for you, the 2nd block doesn't end with the arrival of the Messiah. The 3rd block also has NO mention of the death of an Anointed one.

    You apparently insist that what is irrational is rational. Good luck with that! You don't use the 70 Weeks like a time clock, which is normally how it should be used. So you can rationalize anything away, if you want.
    No I simply highlight that your claim that something is irrational, is simply a baseless claim.
    I do use the 70 weeks EXACTLY as the prophecy declares, and is a very accurate clock.

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