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Thread: Free Everything!

  1. #136
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Sorry Mark, meant this to be all included in one post, but I had too many tabs open and got confused, lol. Pt. 2:

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    I think we also need to discuss the biblical mandates. Where does scripture tell government to "remember the poor"?
    I don't believe Scripture tells "governments" anything that it does not also tell individuals. Yes, parts were written to confront the behavior of certain leaders or nations, but I don't know of a case where God charges any country with the wrong system of government or functioning. But we can make a different connection:

    Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. (Ezekiel 16)

    Well, you might say this was a message to the people of Sodom, not the government. How would we then explain:

    First, Ahab set up an altar for Baal in the temple of Baal that he had built in Samaria. Then he set up an Asherah pole. Thus Ahab did more to provoke the LORD, the God of Israel, to anger than all the kings of Israel before him. [... (earlier) ...] "I lifted you up from the dust and appointed you ruler over my people Israel, but you followed the ways of Jeroboam and caused my people Israel to sin and to arouse my anger." (1 Kings 16)

    Here, the government explicitly does something wrong, and it is translated onto the people. We can't have it both ways, and government be subject to God in some sins but exempt in others. A people who "did not aid the poor and needy" were punished just as the people were punished for idolatry. I believe government is a mere tool in this regard. Here is an example of the government doing the right thing on idolatry:

    Thus Hezekiah did throughout all Judah, and he did what was good and right and faithful before the LORD his God. (2 Chronicles 31) Of course we're familiar with his story.

    So then, what would be the right thing for government or someone in authority to do regarding the people's "pride," "excess ease," or slack in "aiding the poor and needy?"

    In Egypt, we see how Joseph operated within the established government. There, the king took the grain and then redistributed it. That system created poverty and enslavement of all the people.
    IOW it was wrong for Joseph to impose this grain tax? I think temporary poverty is preferable to having the country starve to death, lol.

    Thus, in the capitalist system, the government would wield the sword forcing businesses to take on the full cost of doing business, while in the socialist system, society at large and government foot the bill as investers in the business.
    Okay, this is true in a fully socialist state. I don't think that is the case for democratic socialism, which essentially "wields the sword" on the issue by vote of the people. Capitalism, as you've defined it, would not enjoy its "free enterprise/minimal government" criteria. Businesses own the cost of their operation - the price is determined by the government - the price is outlined by the people.

    Question 2... providing eduction...
    I'm with you on the fault of our education system, and the role government has played in that. But the concept of government being involved in education is not a bad thing at all, and it's the reason we have public schooling and state colleges in the first place. Without these, we would be even further behind the rest of the world than we are today.

    [College/university related issues]
    This is an absolute nightmare and deserves a thread unto itself.

    4. Reducing inequality? Why is this even an issue?
    It's less about the disparity and more about greedy practices to the detriment of our neighbors or community.

    How are we to respond to people who want someone else to pay for their college education?
    Making education free is an investment into the future. There are plenty of people out of college who support it for this reason.

    How do you think those of us that are going to be forced to pay for them should feel?
    I think whatever your feelings are should be consistent with paying for public school currently.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  2. #137

    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    labor’s share of the nation’s income has sunk to the lowest levels in decades. In 2000, when the jobless rate last fell below 4 percent, corporations pulled in 8.3 percent of the nation’s total income in the form of profits; wages and salaries across the entire work force accounted for roughly 66 percent
    That's a little deceptive. US-based corporations include many corporations where the workers are based overseas. If you're looking at US wages, you want to restrict attention to companies whose workforce is US-based.

    Furthermore, the impact of automation means that many corporations hire fewer people, thus reducing the size of the total wages bill, even though US wages themselves have been steady in real terms.

  3. #138

    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by BraveUlysesses View Post
    Do you have any context for this graph, like was there a paper surrounding it, if so I’d like to read it if you have it.
    Here is the blog where that chart came from.

  4. #139

    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    I'm with you on the fault of our education system, and the role government has played in that. But the concept of government being involved in education is not a bad thing at all, and it's the reason we have public schooling and state colleges in the first place. Without these, we would be even further behind the rest of the world than we are today.
    If you're saying that public institutions have higher standards than private ones, I don't believe that is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Making education free is an investment into the future.
    That is true for the top end of the student population. Not so much for the bottom end.

  5. #140
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Can anybody list a country were Democratic Socialism has been successful?
    Day by day
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  6. #141

    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Can anybody list a country were Democratic Socialism has been successful?
    Pure socialism, no. Partial socialism combined with a largely capitalist economy, yes (look at Australia and many European countries).

    But Australia is probably as far in the socialist direction as it's sensible to go. At various times in our history Australia has gone a little too far, and it's been disastrous.

    And anybody who's looking at Cuba or Venezuela for guidance, rather than Sweden or Australia, is quite simply a danger to their country.

  7. #142
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    Pure socialism, no. Partial socialism combined with a largely capitalist economy, yes (look at Australia and many European countries).But Australia is probably as far in the socialist direction as it's sensible to go. At various times in our history Australia has gone a little too far, and it's been disastrous.

    And anybody who's looking at Cuba or Venezuela for guidance, rather than Sweden or Australia, is quite simply a danger to their country.
    Socialism doesn't simply stay put. Historically when a country heads down that road, they begin with the intentions of being as the countries you are describing that seem to have it figured out ( whether they are actually socialist countries or no is a debate for another thread), but they end up as a Cuba or a Venezuela.

    There is nothing good that can come from taking one individual's liberty and giving it to another person. There is more charity work in America than any other country in fact a poll from 2016 revealed that America gave 390 billion in charitable contributions that year , the lions share of those contributions were from individual households equivalent to $2,520 per household. By far more than anywhere else in the world. Capitalism says that WE will choose to spend our income and not the Government. They socialist only want to concentrate on a few select examples of greed and poverty while leaving out the fact that we are a generous , giving people. More so than any Socialist country in the history of the world.

  8. #143

    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Socialism doesn't simply stay put. Historically when a country heads down that road, they begin with the intentions of being as the countries you are describing that seem to have it figured out ( whether they are actually socialist countries or no is a debate for another thread), but they end up as a Cuba or a Venezuela.
    I can't agree with you there. Here in Australia we're a little further down that road than the US, but we're nowhere near Cuba or a Venezuela.

    But you miss my main point. Any policy that goes further than Australia does is likely to be a lunatic policy.

  9. #144
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    I can't agree with you there. Here in Australia we're a little further down that road than the US, but we're nowhere near Cuba or a Venezuela.

    But you miss my main point. Any policy that goes further than Australia does is likely to be a lunatic policy.
    Give it another 15 to twenty years.

  10. #145
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Sorry Mark, meant this to be all included in one post, but I had too many tabs open and got confused, lol. Pt. 2:



    I don't believe Scripture tells "governments" anything that it does not also tell individuals. Yes, parts were written to confront the behavior of certain leaders or nations, but I don't know of a case where God charges any country with the wrong system of government or functioning. But we can make a different connection:

    Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. (Ezekiel 16)

    Well, you might say this was a message to the people of Sodom, not the government. How would we then explain:

    First, Ahab set up an altar for Baal in the temple of Baal that he had built in Samaria. Then he set up an Asherah pole. Thus Ahab did more to provoke the LORD, the God of Israel, to anger than all the kings of Israel before him. [... (earlier) ...] "I lifted you up from the dust and appointed you ruler over my people Israel, but you followed the ways of Jeroboam and caused my people Israel to sin and to arouse my anger." (1 Kings 16)

    Here, the government explicitly does something wrong, and it is translated onto the people. We can't have it both ways, and government be subject to God in some sins but exempt in others. A people who "did not aid the poor and needy" were punished just as the people were punished for idolatry. I believe government is a mere tool in this regard. Here is an example of the government doing the right thing on idolatry:

    Thus Hezekiah did throughout all Judah, and he did what was good and right and faithful before the LORD his God. (2 Chronicles 31) Of course we're familiar with his story.
    I think convoluting Israel with other nations in terms of obeying the Torah is not applicable. God gave specific instructions in covenant to Israel, including how to govern the Israelites, and Israel was held to a much higher standard than any other nation. I don't think we can apply Israel's transgressions of the Torah to other nations. Furthermore, God never institutionalized the theft of assets and redistribution of wealth. The command and the responsibility was given to individuals. I think that was for a good reason. The big black hole of the government handouts invites corruption, imposing conditional controls that oppress the poor, and also invites entitlement attitudes and a dependence and worship of a false god.

    I think the Bible narrative strongly disagrees with the redistribution of wealth. If you think about it, all things come from God. When whomever God provided for through their labor has their labor stolen from them the theft is against God, and it suppresses the potential generosity of the giver. It's just plain criminal in my opinion to steal assets/labor from people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    So then, what would be the right thing for government or someone in authority to do regarding the people's "pride," "excess ease," or slack in "aiding the poor and needy?"
    If we were a theologically a Christian nation, a sound answer could be given. But since our laws are now mired in depravity, we need to understand we can't cherry pick what is "righteous" in our own eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post

    IOW it was wrong for Joseph to impose this grain tax? I think temporary poverty is preferable to having the country starve to death, lol.
    Because it fed ALL the people, it was not a redistribution of wealth. Not one verse alludes to "the big rich farmer" paying more taxes than a poor farmer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    I'm with you on the fault of our education system, and the role government has played in that. But the concept of government being involved in education is not a bad thing at all, and it's the reason we have public schooling and state colleges in the first place. Without these, we would be even further behind the rest of the world than we are today.
    Public education originally was instituted to prepare a citizen to make an informed vote. Public education is so far from it's original intent it's laughable.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  11. #146
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Socialism doesn't simply stay put. Historically when a country heads down that road, they begin with the intentions of being as the countries you are describing that seem to have it figured out ( whether they are actually socialist countries or no is a debate for another thread), but they end up as a Cuba or a Venezuela.

    There is nothing good that can come from taking one individual's liberty and giving it to another person. There is more charity work in America than any other country in fact a poll from 2016 revealed that America gave 390 billion in charitable contributions that year , the lions share of those contributions were from individual households equivalent to $2,520 per household. By far more than anywhere else in the world. Capitalism says that WE will choose to spend our income and not the Government. They socialist only want to concentrate on a few select examples of greed and poverty while leaving out the fact that we are a generous , giving people. More so than any Socialist country in the history of the world.
    The problem with socialism is that absolute power corrupts absolutely.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  12. #147
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    I don't think we can apply Israel's transgressions of the Torah to other nations.
    Sodom was not given the law of Moses, and yet God judged it. His righteousness is consistent:

    Not because of your [Israel's] righteousness or the uprightness of your heart are you going in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations the LORD your God is driving them out from before you. (Deut. 9)[...] Take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? - that I also may do the same.’ (Deut. 12) [...] Do not defile yourselves by any of these practices, for by all these things the nations I am driving out before you have defiled themselves. (Lev. 18)

    God's judgment on these nations was because they were unrighteous, regardless of the written law. Hence Scripture also says:

    For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts [...] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them. (Romans 1 & 2)

    Therefore the measure of righteousness applied to Israel and Sodom is equal. And so the charge of neglecting the poor applied equally to Israel as Sodom. And yes, I have direct support for my conclusion:

    People without the law judged: Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it. (Ezekiel 16)

    People with the law judged: Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty [...] Do not rob a poor man because he is poor, and do not crush the afflicted at the gate. (Proverbs 22) Do not oppress a hired hand who is poor and needy, whether he is a brother or a foreigner residing in one of your towns. You are to pay his wages each day before sunset, because he is poor and depends on them. Otherwise he may cry out to the LORD against you, and you will be guilty of sin. (Deuteronomy 24) This is what the LORD says: “For three transgressions of Israel, even four, I will not revoke My judgment, because they sell the righteous for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals. They trample on the heads of the poor as on the dust of the earth; they push the needy out of their way. (Amos 2)

    But since our laws are now mired in depravity, we need to understand we can't cherry pick what is "righteous" in our own eyes.
    I highly doubt you are this nuanced on abortion and gay marriage.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  13. #148
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Sodom was not given the law of Moses, and yet God judged it. His righteousness is consistent:

    Not because of your [Israel's] righteousness or the uprightness of your heart are you going in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations the LORD your God is driving them out from before you. (Deut. 9)[...] Take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? - that I also may do the same.’ (Deut. 12) [...] Do not defile yourselves by any of these practices, for by all these things the nations I am driving out before you have defiled themselves. (Lev. 18)

    God's judgment on these nations was because they were unrighteous, regardless of the written law. Hence Scripture also says:

    For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts [...] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them. (Romans 1 & 2)

    Therefore the measure of righteousness applied to Israel and Sodom is equal. And so the charge of neglecting the poor applied equally to Israel as Sodom. And yes, I have direct support for my conclusion:

    People without the law judged: Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it. (Ezekiel 16)

    People with the law judged: Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty [...] Do not rob a poor man because he is poor, and do not crush the afflicted at the gate. (Proverbs 22) Do not oppress a hired hand who is poor and needy, whether he is a brother or a foreigner residing in one of your towns. You are to pay his wages each day before sunset, because he is poor and depends on them. Otherwise he may cry out to the LORD against you, and you will be guilty of sin. (Deuteronomy 24) This is what the LORD says: “For three transgressions of Israel, even four, I will not revoke My judgment, because they sell the righteous for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals. They trample on the heads of the poor as on the dust of the earth; they push the needy out of their way. (Amos 2)
    This doesn’t support your argument. You need to exeget Scripture that defines where God sanctifies, by government, the theft of citizens liquid assets to be redistributed to the poor.

    Just because everyone in Sodom was deplorable, depraved jerks doesn’t mandate the forced theft of people’s assets for any purpose.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post

    I highly doubt you are this nuanced on abortion and gay marriage.
    There is a lot more institutionalized depravity in this nation than those two issues.

    Those who legislate depravity in this nation have no moral authority to steal people’s earnings

  14. #149
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    This doesn’t support your argument. You need to exeget Scripture that defines where God sanctifies, by government, the theft of citizens liquid assets to be redistributed to the poor.
    That was not my argument.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  15. #150
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    Pure socialism, no. Partial socialism combined with a largely capitalist economy, yes (look at Australia and many European countries).

    But Australia is probably as far in the socialist direction as it's sensible to go. At various times in our history Australia has gone a little too far, and it's been disastrous.

    And anybody who's looking at Cuba or Venezuela for guidance, rather than Sweden or Australia, is quite simply a danger to their country.
    Australia is a Commonwealth with a free market Capitalist economy. How are they Socialist?

    Which European countries specifically?
    Day by day
    Oh Dear Lord
    Three things I pray
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    Love thee more dearly
    Follow thee more nearly
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