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Thread: Free Everything!

  1. #151
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    That was not my argument.
    Ok. ,

  2. #152

    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Australia is a Commonwealth with a free market Capitalist economy.
    True.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    How are they Socialist?
    Things like a fairly high minimum wage (US$13 for adults), free hospitals (with some limitations), subsidised tertiary education, extensive welfare expenditure, etc.

  3. #153

    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    Thanks this entry was much better than the one I found. I spent (too much) time last night researching the Marxian economics that this analysis was based on. It now makes me wonder what you perspective on capitalism is , obviously something as reductive as for or against isn't what i'm looking for but I would like to know a little more about your economic views.

    From what I was able to gather (if I gathered correctly) within this paradigm capitalism ultimately concentrates wealth (surplus labor) in an ever dwindling few ultimately ending in crises. do you view the stability of wages in real buying power in the US as the ultimate fate of the bottom 90% of all labor markets as they are converted from variable capital to constant capital when they are no longer able to produce surplus labor? Is the ultimate situation for corporations or more specifically some fractional top percentage that they are able to extract surplus labor from new labor markets by exporting capital; while Investment of capital in real terms stagnates in old labor markets as new capital shifts to new labor markets because corporations are able to adjust wages to maintain maximum profit and sustain flat real buying power in the old ones through pricing? IOW a tiny population of super rich people until revolt or an star trek style abundance economy where automation creates so much labor that everyone has supply on demand ?
    "The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right."


  4. #154
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Please don't take this as an insult but you really need to educate yourself on what Socialism actually is.
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  5. #155

    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Please don't take this as an insult but you really need to educate yourself on what Socialism actually is.
    I'm not insulted, i'm curious, where did I go wrong in following the logic and suppositions of the Marxian economic theory in the materials and related materials that radagast posted?
    "The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right."


  6. #156
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by BraveUlysesses View Post
    I'm not insulted, i'm curious, where did I go wrong in following the logic and suppositions of the Marxian economic theory in the materials and related materials that radagast posted?
    My apologies, I forgot to quote Radagast. My reply was intended for him.
    Day by day
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  7. #157

    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    My apologies, I forgot to quote Radagast. My reply was intended for him.
    Oh, np, this is an interesting thread, good stuff.
    "The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right."


  8. #158

    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Please don't take this as an insult but you really need to educate yourself on what Socialism actually is.
    I'm fully aware of what socialism is, thanks very much.

  9. #159
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    I'm fully aware of what socialism is, thanks very much.
    When I asked if anyone could list a country were Democratic Socialism has been successful you said that Australia is a far far sensible as it's sensible to go and then said "Several" European countries.

    I point out that Australia is a Commonwealth and Capitalist and you say true. When I asked how they were Socialist you replied minimum wage, healthcare, education and something else that I can't remember.

    You've yet to say which European countries have adopted Democratic Socialism and been successful and you've yet shown how Australia is a Socialist country.

    So I have to wonder brother.
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  10. #160
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Sorry Mark, meant this to be all included in one post, but I had too many tabs open and got confused, lol. Pt. 2:
    Thank you Aviyah. I'll respond to both of your posts later. I am still on vacation and a bit under the weather. Thank you for your efforts and your patience.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  11. #161
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Please don't take this as an insult but you really need to educate yourself on what Socialism actually is.
    Amen. People are calling many countries socialist that aren't.

  12. #162
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Increasing company profits are not finding their way to the workers who are financially unstable. They take home a lesser percentage of their fruits, despite it perhaps being the same amount. IOW, a worker's higher productivity does not translate to earnings, which nets a worse situation given increasing costs of living.
    You're absolutely correct on that. The solution isn't some form of Socialism though, the solution is more jobs that pay better wages. Companies that have to compete for a workforce will be forced to pay higher wages and give better benefits.
    Free Market Capitalism is the only system that would allow that kind of competition in a country as diverse and large population wise as America. On top of that, big money guys just don't sit on their money they invest it in order to make even more money. Those investments usually result in jobs.
    The way things have been being done - because of our politicians stupid trade deals, regulations, taxes etc - they've been investing overseas. We need to change that and get back to making America the place they want to invest in which will result in more and better jobs at higher wages.
    Day by day
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  13. #163

    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Amen. People are calling many countries socialist that aren't.
    It's a spectrum. Very few countries are pure socialist (and those are all basket cases), but several countries have some socialist policies.

  14. #164
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    Re: Free Everything!

    The problem you have is that you aren't discussing Socialism as it's actually practiced and lived in the world. You're conflating Social Programs with Socialism and the two aren't the same thing.

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  15. #165
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Sorry Mark, meant this to be all included in one post, but I had too many tabs open and got confused, lol. Pt. 2:
    No worries. Sorry it took me this long to reply. I'll start with part 2.

    I don't believe Scripture tells "governments" anything that it does not also tell individuals. Yes, parts were written to confront the behavior of certain leaders or nations, but I don't know of a case where God charges any country with the wrong system of government or functioning.
    It seems to me, that God does tell government things he does not tell individuals. For instance, he tells us not to judge. But He tells governments to judge. They bear the sword of the wrath of God. We on the other hand are to turn the other cheek.

    But we can make a different connection:

    Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. (Ezekiel 16)

    Well, you might say this was a message to the people of Sodom, not the government.
    It was to the people of Sodom and I would use Abraham's prayer and the Lord's response to it as a justification for that. Had Lot's whole family been saved, God would have spared Sodom for her pride. Also, that verse you quoted says at the end "and other abominations" that we are well aware of. It was all of it, not just part of it. We see how Sodom oppressed the poor too when those angels visited Lot.

    How would we then explain:

    First, Ahab set up an altar for Baal in the temple of Baal that he had built in Samaria. Then he set up an Asherah pole. Thus Ahab did more to provoke the LORD, the God of Israel, to anger than all the kings of Israel before him. [... (earlier) ...] "I lifted you up from the dust and appointed you ruler over my people Israel, but you followed the ways of Jeroboam and caused my people Israel to sin and to arouse my anger." (1 Kings 16)

    Here, the government explicitly does something wrong, and it is translated onto the people.
    Indeed! But with Israel, they are a type and shadow of the individual believer and the church. IMO, Israel's government is not what God is looking for from government in general. They are "His people". That is one reason Keck said we have to be careful using Israel's government as an example. The fact they had a king to begin with was against God's will. They had already rejected Him as King.

    We can't have it both ways, and government be subject to God in some sins but exempt in others. A people who "did not aid the poor and needy" were punished just as the people were punished for idolatry. I believe government is a mere tool in this regard.
    Government wields the sword. It is meant to protect people from evil doers. It is not meant to redistribute income to the poor but rather to punish greed, immorality, murder, etc. That's the point of Romans 13.

    Here is an example of the government doing the right thing on idolatry:

    Thus Hezekiah did throughout all Judah, and he did what was good and right and faithful before the LORD his God. (2 Chronicles 31) Of course we're familiar with his story.
    Again, church and God's people and their government. Secular government is Romans 13, IMO.

    So then, what would be the right thing for government or someone in authority to do regarding the people's "pride," "excess ease," or slack in "aiding the poor and needy?"
    Romans 13. God considered 10 righteous people, citizens, enough to spare Sodom. He wasn't looking at that as a government issue.

    IOW it was wrong for Joseph to impose this grain tax? I think temporary poverty is preferable to having the country starve to death, lol.
    I don't see where God condemned them for hoarding nor for Pharoah becoming much richer as a result. He basically owned all of Egypt after it. But I think history shows that happens with wealth redistribution through government. At least it has in Venezuala, Russia, etc. and until China changed, it happened there too.

    Okay, this is true in a fully socialist state. I don't think that is the case for democratic socialism, which essentially "wields the sword" on the issue by vote of the people. Capitalism, as you've defined it, would not enjoy its "free enterprise/minimal government" criteria. Businesses own the cost of their operation - the price is determined by the government - the price is outlined by the people.
    Government, in capitalism, doesn't determine the price of business. Government simply enforces the price. IOW, I can't pollute your backyard in order to make money for myself. That is offloading my expense onto you. It's stealing. Government should not allow it to happen. Free enterprise doesn't mean allowing theft whether by overtaxing, redistribution, or pushing business costs onto society at large. Socialism, whether democratic socialism or otherwise, is guilty of all those things, IMO.

    I'm with you on the fault of our education system, and the role government has played in that. But the concept of government being involved in education is not a bad thing at all, and it's the reason we have public schooling and state colleges in the first place. Without these, we would be even further behind the rest of the world than we are today.
    Our 10th amendment allows for it. The feds shouldn't be involved at all for there's nothing it the constitution that grants them the power to do so. I think our founders rightly saw the difference between society's responsibilities and government's responsibilities. These things also seem seperate to me in scripture, with your example of Sodom showing it, IMO. I'll quote one of our founders:

    Thomas Paine "Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best stage, is a necessary evil; in its worst state, and intolerable one;...".

    He drew a distinction between society and government. That distinction seems lost today. But it is still there, IMO, in the scriptures and in reality though I think today the lines are far more blurred. There are other quotes, but time prevents me from finding them. I searched for one in particular but can't remember who said it so...

    This is an absolute nightmare and deserves a thread unto itself.
    Agreed. And I fear the same thing is happening to our health care.

    It's less about the disparity and more about greedy practices to the detriment of our neighbors or community.
    Then by all means government should wield the sword against it! So long as it doesn't go so far as to "redistribute" income. In the case of theft, fine. But as a show of mercy, it is laying down the sword that God gave it, IMO.

    Making education free is an investment into the future. There are plenty of people out of college who support it for this reason.
    That didn't answer the question. I'll ask again, how is someone to be viewed that wants another individual to pay for their college education (i.e. consumption) by force of government? To me, this is the very definition of envy, jealousy, theft, etc.

    I think whatever your feelings are should be consistent with paying for public school currently.
    Fair enough. If I had my way, the feds would completely exit education.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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