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Thread: Free Everything!

  1. #91

    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is perhaps a gross generalization, but in my view Socialism simply doesn't work over the long haul.
    Pretty much everything has been tried somewhere or other. Pure capitalism, pure socialism, and various combinations of the two.

    Only a complete idiot looks at the policies of Soviet Russia or Venezuela and decides that they would be a good idea. However, there is something to be said for the policies of, say, Australia.

  2. #92
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    I've actually heard this monologue a few weeks ago, and I don't feel that he addresses my question. For someone who cares about the environment for example, how is capitalism better than socialism at solving its problems? I'd really prefer it in your or someone's own words if possible.
    The Soviet Union, China and other smaller countries which are heavy with socialism were or remain the worse polluters on the planet.

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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    The Soviet Union, China and other smaller countries which are heavy with socialism were or remain the worse polluters on the planet.
    Obviously so, as the environment was never a concern for those countries. The nordic nations however are among the cleanest on the planet, because that is their objective, yet they employ more socialism than the US. Do you have any thoughts on how (or if) capitalist ideas can encourage clean energy, without government intervention?
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Hmm, would public services be forms of socialism as you define it? Just in the most general sense, good or bad.
    Nope. Our government is by the people, for the people and of the people and we can decide through our representatives what kind of services our government ( state and federal ) can and will provide and how they are to be paid for.
    Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, busing for the poor to be able to get to places they need to get to ( Doctors, social services appointments etc ) food stamps and more can be and are part of our Representative Democracy/Republic.
    Capitalism and Free Trade are our economic system which, yes, can greatly influence our governmental system and vice versa. But Capitalism as it exists in America today isn't the same as it was 40 + years ago.

    Our system of government and our economic system isn't the problem. It's our greedy representatives ( on both sides ) that aren't actually representing our best interests that is the problem.
    Day by day
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  5. #95

    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Obviously so, as the environment was never a concern for those countries. The nordic nations however are among the cleanest on the planet, because that is their objective, yet they employ more socialism than the US. Do you have any thoughts on how (or if) capitalist ideas can encourage clean energy, without government intervention?

    The Nordic nations are indeed more socialist than the US, but the shift to "clean energy" is happening on the capitalist side of the fence -- large energy corporations are driving it.

    Of course, in Sweden, roughly half the power generation is nuclear, and another 35% is hydro (because they have both water and mountains), so the "cleanup" involves only the 15% that's left. And Sweden has far higher levels of social cohesion than the US, so it's easier to get the population behind ideals like "clean energy."

    As has already been pointed out, pure socialist countries tend to be the worst polluters around.

  6. #96
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Obviously so, as the environment was never a concern for those countries. The nordic nations however are among the cleanest on the planet, because that is their objective, yet they employ more socialism than the US. Do you have any thoughts on how (or if) capitalist ideas can encourage clean energy, without government intervention?
    Nordic nations aren’t socialist nations, the are capitalists. They also geographically have a smaller footprint and consume products from other nations so they get away with the appearance of being cleaner. if they had to produce what they consume domestically, they wouln’t look so god either.

    **good. .
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  7. #97
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Nope. Our government is by the people, for the people and of the people and we can decide through our representatives what kind of services our government ( state and federal ) can and will provide and how they are to be paid for.
    Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, busing for the poor to be able to get to places they need to get to ( Doctors, social services appointments etc ) food stamps and more can be and are part of our Representative Democracy/Republic.
    Capitalism and Free Trade are our economic system which, yes, can greatly influence our governmental system and vice versa. But Capitalism as it exists in America today isn't the same as it was 40 + years ago.

    Our system of government and our economic system isn't the problem. It's our greedy representatives ( on both sides ) that aren't actually representing our best interests that is the problem.
    We aren’t a democracy, we are a consititutional republic. That means even the minority has protection from the whims of the majority. That means the majority can’t constitutional decide to steal assets from a minority. Or restrict the rights of a minority, say Asians for example.

    In regards to greedy representatives the only solution is term limits
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Nope. Our government is by the people, for the people and of the people and we can decide through our representatives what kind of services our government ( state and federal ) can and will provide and how they are to be paid for.
    Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, busing for the poor to be able to get to places they need to get to ( Doctors, social services appointments etc ) food stamps and more can be and are part of our Representative Democracy/Republic.
    Capitalism and Free Trade are our economic system which, yes, can greatly influence our governmental system and vice versa. But Capitalism as it exists in America today isn't the same as it was 40 + years ago.

    Our system of government and our economic system isn't the problem. It's our greedy representatives ( on both sides ) that aren't actually representing our best interests that is the problem.
    Gotcha, I can agree with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    The Nordic nations are indeed more socialist than the US [...]
    Case being I don't find simply listing "socialist/capitalist" countries speaks to whether they prioritize the environment. Conservative parties could do so just as easily, but either disagree with the objective, or are indifferent towards it, or offer philosophical solutions. Environmental protection is a practical goal of liberal and socialist parties, which is why someone with that as their main concern would gravitate in this direction.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

  9. #99

    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Case being I don't find simply listing "socialist/capitalist" countries speaks to whether they prioritize the environment. Conservative parties could do so just as easily, but either disagree with the objective, or are indifferent towards it, or offer philosophical solutions. Environmental protection is a practical goal of liberal and socialist parties, which is why someone with that as their main concern would gravitate in this direction.
    I'm sorry, I didn't understand any of that, and I question your understanding of world politics.

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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Environmental protection is a practical goal of liberal and socialist parties, which is why someone with that as their main concern would gravitate in this direction.
    Environmental concerns are a practical goal and concern of Conservatives too. No one ants to breath dirty air or drink poisonous water. The difference between Conservatives and Socialists is that we search for practical and effective means to do so that won't wreck havoc on our economy and so peoples lives.

    Just look at the history of Socialism and see if it has really benefited people in the long run or if it's resulted in misery.

    About the Nordic counties - They're Democracies and free market capitalists with the exception of Norway. They heavily rely on a strong labor force ( in private owned businesses ) and free trade.
    They basically operate with a set of policies that promotes economic security and prosperity using the framework of capitalism that can work very well for them given their populations.

    Try that with a country the size of America and our diverse cultures and states and you would have chaos. Some of what they do could be done. The only reason we can't have a universal health care system and a great infrastructure in America is because our Representatives spend our tax dollars unwisely and we let them get away with it.
    Day by day
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  11. #101
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Since I canít edit- Iím not actually advocating for universal healthcare. Iím just saying that it could be done.

    I think health insurance companies need to be competing among and across all states with some governmental oversight to prevent collusion so costs come well down.
    I also think that those below a certain gross earning threshold should receive Medicare benefits with the way Ohio does it as an example.

    Both are possible if representatives are brought under the peopleís control as opposed to big money control.
    Day by day
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    Three things I pray
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    Love thee more dearly
    Follow thee more nearly
    Day by day

  12. #102
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Obviously so, as the environment was never a concern for those countries. The nordic nations however are among the cleanest on the planet, because that is their objective, yet they employ more socialism than the US. Do you have any thoughts on how (or if) capitalist ideas can encourage clean energy, without government intervention?
    Capitalism in itself is not moral, and may overlook environmental concerns if it does not affect companies directly. When people suffer they take their cases to court.

    Capitalism, on the other hand, provides a more fertile environment for healthy competition, if the rules are applied consistently and justly, and if there is a moral basis for it. The only reason democratic socialism works in certain countries, such as in Scandinavia, is because they have a Christian background. They were Lutheran states.

    The Christian religion self-motivates, and is less affected by government philosophy. For example, Christianity was unaffected by Roman emperor worship, and went on to win the empire over to Christianity.

    But in comparing Capitalism to Socialism, the religious background is not the only factor in determining how successful a country may be. The philosophy of Capitalism, when influenced by Christianity, does better than Socialism, when it is also influenced by Christianity.

    But Communism, separated from Christianity entirely, does worse than these. Communism is a form of Socialism devoid of Christianity. As such, motivation to produce is severely reduced by the redistribution of wealth, and also by partiality in a monolithic government.

  13. #103
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Capitalism in itself is not moral...
    I still don't have much time to post in this thread, and I promised Aviyah a response. It may be next week before I can take the time to do it right. But I am trying to read along the way.

    Your comment here is something that I wish to address briefly. Freedom is moral. So is individual responsibility. Any system that is going to be based in morality, will ultimately provide more freedom and also demand personal responsibility by allowing consequences of personal choice to manifest. Also, any system that is moral, must also fulfill it's biblical mandate (i.e. what is God's purpose for government, church, etc.) Coloring outside those lines could be immoral. We see in scripture that God established private ownership of land, cattle, business, etc. That also means that private ownership is a moral issue since it came from God. (That's not to say that public ownership is immoral. Just that private ownership of land, livestock, valuables, business, etc. must if we are to be a moral society.)

    Other than that, carry on.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  14. #104
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    I still don't have much time to post in this thread, and I promised Aviyah a response. It may be next week before I can take the time to do it right. But I am trying to read along the way.

    Your comment here is something that I wish to address briefly. Freedom is moral. So is individual responsibility. Any system that is going to be based in morality, will ultimately provide more freedom and also demand personal responsibility by allowing consequences of personal choice to manifest. Also, any system that is moral, must also fulfill it's biblical mandate (i.e. what is God's purpose for government, church, etc.) Coloring outside those lines could be immoral. We see in scripture that God established private ownership of land, cattle, business, etc. That also means that private ownership is a moral issue since it came from God. (That's not to say that public ownership is immoral. Just that private ownership of land, livestock, valuables, business, etc. must if we are to be a moral society.)

    Other than that, carry on.
    I appreciate your input. Taken within a Christian framework I would completely agree. On the other hand, we must also ask the question, Can freedom exist without morality? Can private ownership exist without morality? The answer, of course, is yes.

    Freedom without morality is license. Liberty without morality is libertinism. And private ownership is not moral if the one who owns capital or property is not moral.

    Other than this, I would completely agree with you. Traditional concepts of individualism, freedom, and private ownership, as applied within historic Christianity, is truly moral and in line with what God created us to be. He created us not to be slaves, but to be sons and daughters with the freedom to act as God's agents.

    To give up our freedom to rulers is to cede our responsibility to others and to lessen our ability to carry out our mandate from God. Capitalism, when working properly, is closer to this sense of "moral freedom" than Socialism. As such, we would be more effective in fighting things like environmental problems.

    It is our natural human inclination to try to right environmental problems. The issue is, Does government aid us in this, or does it restrict us?

    My answer is that when combined with moral interests Capitalism is more likely to produce results, due to its freedom, as well as its incentives. Socialism would not necessarily be less concerned. But it is more restrictive, discouraging a diverse approach towards solving these problems. And it does not reward the individual. Rewarding society as a whole, in place of the individual, tends to discourage effort.

  15. #105
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I appreciate your input. Taken within a Christian framework I would completely agree. On the other hand, we must also ask the question, Can freedom exist without morality? Can private ownership exist without morality? The answer, of course, is yes.
    Let's think about this... Freedom cannot exists without morality. Neither can private ownership. If people do not see these as moral rights, then they will be taken away by the strongest. Look at the Nazis, communist, etc. for example of what happens when moral truth is sacrificed. Remove moral truth and all hell breaks loose, literally.

    How much freedom to "the right to life" do the unborn have? None. Because we have lost our moral bearings when it comes to the right to life. Without moral truths there can be no freedom.

    Freedom without morality is license.
    That's not freedom. But I get your point. I still say that without morality, there can be no true freedom for then, the devil would find the strongest and motivate him/her to conquer all. He would have free reign.

    And private ownership is not moral if the one who owns capital or property is not moral.
    Morality is what enables him to own it, unless he steels it or oppresses the poor. But even then, morality keeps others from doing the same to him.

    Other than this, I would completely agree with you. Traditional concepts of individualism, freedom, and private ownership, as applied within historic Christianity, is truly moral and in line with what God created us to be. He created us not to be slaves, but to be sons and daughters with the freedom to act as God's agents.

    To give up our freedom to rulers is to cede our responsibility to others and to lessen our ability to carry out our mandate from God. Capitalism, when working properly, is closer to this sense of "moral freedom" than Socialism.
    Agreed.

    As such, we would be more effective in fighting things like environmental problems.
    We've come a long way in this regard. True freedom, would mean that businesses bear all the cost of doing business. This includes pollution. A business should not be able to pass on the cost of doing business (i.e. pollution) to the local community.

    It is our natural human inclination to try to right environmental problems. The issue is, Does government aid us in this, or does it restrict us?
    Romans 13.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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