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Thread: Free Everything!

  1. #166
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Increasing company profits are not finding their way to the workers who are financially unstable. They take home a lesser percentage of their fruits, despite it perhaps being the same amount. IOW, a worker's higher productivity does not translate to earnings, which nets a worse situation given increasing costs of living.
    That could be a problem. And I think it is becoming one in our society for sure. Biblically speaking, inequality of income has never been an issue. Greed is. So is oppression. I do think we need to do three things that modern society has refused to do. One of them I blame both parties for though IMO, republicans are more guilty, the other is more one the democratic party's fault.

    1. Enforce our anti-trust laws. (This encourages competition for employees and consumers.)
    2. Stop overregulating so that businesses can thrive. When businesses have to compete for workers, they will pay and pay a lot more.
    3. Fix our tax system. Income taxes are a drain on society at large. Go to a VAT tax system. Even the world trade system skews against income taxes. Income taxes cannot be waived for foreign trade while VAT taxes can be in world trade. Also, business taxes just hide from people the amount they are paying government anyway. The entire amount gets passed onto the consumer.

    Our former president pushed regulations so hard and it dampened the economy. When businesses don't have to compete for workers, the workers wages will go down. The law of supply and demand doesn't really change.

    Scripture also says not to oppress the hired hand, and not to withhold food from the ox as he treads the mill. Firing people living by paycheck, not out of necessity for the company, but because you want to live in further excess is not moral.
    Let's not confuse business with society. Businesses are meant to be profitable. Firing someone for profit is not a sin. There's other jobs out there. If a laborer is let go, no food is withheld from him while he is treading the grain. Nor is he being oppressed and forced to work as a slave.

    I assume preventing/dismantling monopolies falls under this, despite being somewhat restrictive to the free enterprise of Microsofts and Comcasts?
    I am not sure where this idea is coming from... this idea that capitalism means anarchy in economics. It's not. Capitalism is about competition. Government is the referee to ensure competition among business and choice for consumers by wielding a sword against corporate control of society and greed. So absolutely yes, these things still need to take place under a minimalist government. The sword is still used by government. But the nanny side of government should be very, very, very small. And the sword side needs to be large enough to be effective, but not so large as to be unanswerable to the people.

    But the effects of using fossil fuels will (and currently) also impact society before we will run out. So I would not say that capitalism is "supportive" of technological advancement, perhaps only indifferent to it. If profit is the ultimate goal, then this system will use "stones" as long as it is profitable, no matter how severely people are harmed. I don't see a method for protecting the community on this without government intervention of some kind, at the very least providing financial incentivizes for clean energy. Just activism, maybe?
    I don't think CO2 is the problem others are saying it is. But lets assume that it is. The USA still is more successful in reducing it's carbon output than other nations that are trying to make it happen through government intervention. Still, if CO2 is pollution, then government should wield the sword against it. As for incentives, I am not for that, except through tax breaks. IOW, lets not redistribute income from one company to another.

    I would use a similar train of thought when dealing with oppression within companies as well as between them.
    Sure. I have no problem with that. But I think there's less oppression than you probably do. If one lives in the US (there are a few exceptions of course), they are rich compared to the rest of the world. What is considered poor today, was middle class 70 years ago.

    Who would enforce this if not the government?
    Well, I am not sure I communicated clearly in my prior post. I do believe government should force businesses to bear the cost of business. It is stealing for a business to pollute your back yard in order to make their product cheaper. They are stealing from you to do that.

    However, it is not government's job to fix social issues. i.e. force companies to provide healthcare, redistribute income to battle poverty, etc. Those are issues for society to address and more specifically, churches. It is not the purpose of the sword to do such a thing. God's wrath doesn't fix poverty. The poor perished in Sodom along with the rich. God's mercy can and does address poverty, through His people.

    I don't believe government has any mandate from Romans 13. As it says, all authority comes from God (applies to China equally to the US). Or do you get this philosophy from somewhere else also?
    All authority does come from God. But all authority also abuses the authority granted it. Romans 13 shows how the authority granted to governments is to be wielded. But authority abuses that and gets involved in mercy (i.e. redistibution). If government had bailed out the prodigal son, would he have repented? Scripture says he came to his senses after no one helped him. The church can discern such a thing. Government cannot and will not.

    Husbands have authority from God. But they can abuse that authority. China abuses their authority and so does the US government. Fallen men abuse and misuse everything granted to them by God. Still, ALL authority comes from God.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  2. #167
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    I don't believe Scripture tells "governments" anything that it does not also tell individuals. Yes, parts were written to confront the behavior of certain leaders or nations, but I don't know of a case where God charges any country with the wrong system of government or functioning. But we can make a different connection:

    Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. (Ezekiel 16)
    One other thing on Sodom. First, here is the rest of that passage:

    Ezek 16:49 "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. 50 "Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.

    God was rebuking His people for their lack of concern for the poor and emphasized that part of Sodom's sin to them. And He told them they were MORE corrupt than Soddom in this passage. But let's not for a minute think that was all God was concerned about with Sodom. He went on to call them prideful and said they committed abominations before Him. We know what some of those were because of the story of Lot.

    But here's the main thought... the rich and poor both perished in God's wrath on Sodom. They were all guilty of oppression before him and of abominable behavior before Him. Only Lot, and apparently his wife and daughters, were found righteous before God.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  3. #168
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Thank you for the discussion Aviyah. I am not sure I will respond again. But I can see that you have put effort and thought into your posts and you deserved and answer to them. And of course, I promised you I would respond.

    God bless and thank you again for your kind way of discussing issues.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  4. #169
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Thank you for the discussion Aviyah. I am not sure I will respond again. But I can see that you have put effort and thought into your posts and you deserved and answer to them. And of course, I promised you I would respond.

    God bless and thank you again for your kind way of discussing issues.
    Okay likewise! Thanks for your thoughts, I appreciate the conversation.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  5. #170
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    Re: Free Everything!

    I kind of like the current strategy being used to debunk AOC's ignorant economics .

    Socialism only thrives in the dark, so it needs to be exposed to the light.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  6. #171
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Are you guys saying that Sodom and Gomorrah are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire because of socialism?
    A time will come when instead of shepherds feeding the sheep, the church will have clowns entertaining the goats.

    ~ Charles Spurgeon


  7. #172
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    Re: Free Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    Are you guys saying that Sodom and Gomorrah are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire because of socialism?
    I didn't see anyone suggest that in a post. Maybe I missed it. Every post that I read suggested that Ezekiel explained why those two cities were destroyed... not aiding the poor and needy, and committing abomination before God.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  8. #173
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    Re: Free Everything!

    I didnít read any links between sodom and socialism either

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