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Thread: Is Satan really the god of this world?

  1. #106
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    Re: Is Satan really the god of this world?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I also discussed this with my brother this morning. We both agree that Satan is more likely the "god of this age," referred to by Paul. More often I would give great weight to the views of the Church Fathers. But on this occasion, I would defer to Erasmus and to Calvin, and accept their explanation of the error, since I came to the exact same conclusion, namely that Irenaeus and those who followed him were attempted to argue against Gnostics who believed in 2 gods, rather than just 1 God.
    We know (Pelagius) the two interpretations existed long before Erasmus and Calvin. The Church was split on several things in Pelagius' and Augustine's day. Original sin/sin nature, for example. I'm not sure what, "Irenaeus and those who followed him" means? I can't take the words of 3 fathers and call it a "majority" view. That's a mistake the video makes and is also made by proponents of Original sin/sin nature. These were not majority views of the ecf's. They were views held by some. A few ecf's mention infant baptism and we don't consider it a majority view. Let's be consistent. Tertullian is one of the 3 but he was pretty wack, and we know Erasmus (whom I have great respect for) isn't exempt from questionable views and Calvin was definitely wack, joining Gnostic Augustine.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I fully accept that God, in the OT, was largely the source of blinding the ungodly world. But in the NT, there seems to be a shift, in Paul, to Satan blinding men, after Christ had fully revealed who God is. In other words, God blinded men, and kept them blind, as long as they were not part of the plan of salvation, and cooperating in propagating that plan.
    I don't find any biblical basis for any of this. According to Paul, men were in this world without God and without hope, walking this natural course of man. I don't think that's what you mean by blinded by God though. There is no shift. The role of Satan found in the NT is found in the OT. I see no difference here.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    But after Christ came and revealed his salvation to the world, it became Satan who blinded the world from receiving the already-revealed plan of salvation. God had kept man from interfering with His developing plan for the gospel. But once the gospel had been revealed, it was Satan who kept man from seeing the gospel as the salvation that had been revealed to them.
    I find the idea that Satan can blind whom God is revealing the gospel to absurd. I'm seeing a lot of Reformed/Lutheran/Methodist mantra running through, not just what you have written, but in what I have read everywhere on this topic. If we believe man is dead spiritually and has to be made alive, or have his eyes opened, in order to see the gospel truth, we're on a foundation of sand and can only find ourselves sinking as we attempt go deeper into others truths. We cannot interpret passages such as this properly when we are trying to stand on a lie.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I do agree that it is too awkward to read 2 Cor 4.4 as God Himself being the source of blinding men. It is more natural, in the NT age, for Paul to distinguish "this age" as an age of evil, over which Satan reigns.

    By contrast, the OT Scriptures portray the age as in a sense the eternal stretch of time, leading to the fulfillment of God's promises. Once the NT gospel comes to light, however, Paul recognizes that until the promises of God are fulfilled, evil reigns and Satan reigns over those who are evil. The Age to Come is the Messianic Age in which Satan is bound.
    How is it awkward when it's the undeniable, unmistakable, plain words of Jesus? Paul's letters mention the same leadership, people, and spirit, Jesus said he spoke in parables to hid the truth from an blind. Why? Because the same resistance to the gospel of Jesus Christ still existed from the Jews. Jesus said their father was not God but Satan, but he didn't say Satan blinded them. Did he? No. He said God blinded them because of their unbelief.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I find the subject fascinating
    As do I, but I must allow interpretation to be influenced by arguments from the same time period because allowing post modern doctrine to influence my interpretation always leads to conflict. So I have to go back to the first couple of centuries and find myself in the same place. I either believe the Jews were able to believe or they were not. Clearly they were. Since they were able to believe and did not, God blinded them, just as it says. If they were not able to believe, I have no where to go, responsibility falls on God. Satan is not found in either scenario as a cause for blinding. This, coupled with the context clearly stating the children of Israel were blinded by the law, leaves me with only one possible conclusion.

  2. #107
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    Re: Is Satan really the god of this world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    We know (Pelagius) the two interpretations existed long before Erasmus and Calvin. The Church was split on several things in Pelagius' and Augustine's day. Original sin/sin nature, for example. I'm not sure what, "Irenaeus and those who followed him" means?
    I noticed, when reading the Fathers and their positions, on certain subjects, that later Fathers followed the beliefs of earlier Fathers, picking up the same issues, and reiterating them. So when Irenaeus said something about a subject, later Church Fathers tended to read the same and to deal with the same issues, sometimes stating a similar thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    I can't take the words of 3 fathers and call it a "majority" view. That's a mistake the video makes and is also made by proponents of Original sin/sin nature. These were not majority views of the ecf's. They were views held by some. A few ecf's mention infant baptism and we don't consider it a majority view. Let's be consistent. Tertullian is one of the 3 but he was pretty wack, and we know Erasmus (whom I have great respect for) isn't exempt from questionable views and Calvin was definitely wack, joining Gnostic Augustine.
    I don't call any of them "whacks." I'm certainly not qualified to do so. On the contrary, I respect them, although like you, I suspect they had the typical human errors that we have to watch out for. I would go so far as to say I think the biblical prophets and the biblical apostles would fall into the same category as you place the Church Fathers and historic figures in the Church. They are all human. But God did use the biblical personages, despite their imperfections. We just have to leave the unrevealed parts out. Fortunately, in the Bible we only have the revealed parts stated as doctrines!

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    I don't find any biblical basis for any of this. According to Paul, men were in this world without God and without hope, walking this natural course of man. I don't think that's what you mean by blinded by God though. There is no shift. The role of Satan found in the NT is found in the OT. I see no difference here.
    I wasn't saying there was a shift in reality--just a shift in emphasis. Once the gospel mission had been proclaimed to the world, Paul's emphasis was less on God blinding men and more on Satan deceiving men. God clearly blinded Israel in the OT era, when Israel refused to cooperate with God's plan. But in the NT era, the concern is with deceived men who hinder the Church. I admit this is not a clear distinction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    I find the idea that Satan can blind whom God is revealing the gospel to absurd.
    I don't find this to be the issue. I wouldn't say that Satan is somehow defeating God's wish to enlighten mankind. On the contrary, God is openly allowing Satan to blind men, who do not look to God for truth, but rather, pursue truth in their own way. God gives them Satan as an answer to their choice for selfishness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    I'm seeing a lot of Reformed/Lutheran/Methodist mantra running through, not just what you have written, but in what I have read everywhere on this topic. If we believe man is dead spiritually and has to be made alive, or have his eyes opened, in order to see the gospel truth, we're on a foundation of sand and can only find ourselves sinking as we attempt go deeper into others truths. We cannot interpret passages such as this properly when we are trying to stand on a lie.
    I have no idea what your point is here? To begin with, your assumption that Reformed truth is an error is purely your own bias--not mine. But even if Reformed truth contains error, you have not identified it at all--only assume it to be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    How is it awkward when it's the undeniable, unmistakable, plain words of Jesus? Paul's letters mention the same leadership, people, and spirit, Jesus said he spoke in parables to hid the truth from an blind. Why? Because the same resistance to the gospel of Jesus Christ still existed from the Jews. Jesus said their father was not God but Satan, but he didn't say Satan blinded them. Did he? No. He said God blinded them because of their unbelief.
    Undoubtedly the "blindness" consisted not just of one thing, but two things: God and Satan. God used Satan's deceptions to blind men, to give them the alternative truth that they pursued. Jesus plainly referred to some people deceived by Satan as being "children of Satan." So did Paul. What this means is that people who had been willfully captured by Satan were deceived, along with Satan, about what constituted justice and truth. They perverted truth to accommodate their own lust for power, for self-actualization. They wanted to go their own way, and not be under God. This was "blindness," involving both God and Satan. God gave them over to Satan and to their own wishes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    As do I, but I must allow interpretation to be influenced by arguments from the same time period because allowing post modern doctrine to influence my interpretation always leads to conflict. So I have to go back to the first couple of centuries and find myself in the same place. I either believe the Jews were able to believe or they were not. Clearly they were. Since they were able to believe and did not, God blinded them, just as it says. If they were not able to believe, I have no where to go, responsibility falls on God. Satan is not found in either scenario as a cause for blinding. This, coupled with the context clearly stating the children of Israel were blinded by the law, leaves me with only one possible conclusion.
    I also agree that anybody, including the Jews, could believe. Many simply chose to follow the path of self-autonomy, as I like to call it. They wanted freedom--freedom from God. And so, God gave them the god they wanted, which was Satan. If they didn't want God, God wasn't going to force Himself upon them. They could have the god of their own imagination, which was rebellion against God, or Satan.

    Satan simply gave them, his followers, the very blindness he himself had, which was that they could make of themselves their own god, which allowed them to determine their own fate. But that was a lie, and God let them have it. Who we can technically say "blinded them" is a semantics battle. But to determine what 2 Cor 4.4 means, we have to know how Paul spoke. And I find that Paul spoke of an evil age, and of Satan. The "god of this age," then, would be for Paul Satan. Just my opinion....

  3. #108
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    Re: Is Satan really the god of this world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    We know (Pelagius) the two interpretations existed long before Erasmus and Calvin. The Church was split on several things in Pelagius' and Augustine's day. Original sin/sin nature, for example. I'm not sure what, "Irenaeus and those who followed him" means?
    I noticed, when reading the Fathers and their positions, on certain subjects, that later Fathers followed the beliefs of earlier Fathers, picking up the same issues, and reiterating them. So when Irenaeus said something about a subject, later Church Fathers tended to read the same and to deal with the same issues, sometimes stating a similar thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    I can't take the words of 3 fathers and call it a "majority" view. That's a mistake the video makes and is also made by proponents of Original sin/sin nature. These were not majority views of the ecf's. They were views held by some. A few ecf's mention infant baptism and we don't consider it a majority view. Let's be consistent. Tertullian is one of the 3 but he was pretty wack, and we know Erasmus (whom I have great respect for) isn't exempt from questionable views and Calvin was definitely wack, joining Gnostic Augustine.
    I don't call any of them "whacks." I'm certainly not qualified to do so. On the contrary, I respect them, although like you, I suspect they had the typical human errors that we have to watch out for. I would go so far as to say I think the biblical prophets and the biblical apostles would fall into the same category as you place the Church Fathers and historic figures in the Church. They are all human. But God did use the biblical personages, despite their imperfections. We just have to leave the unrevealed parts out. Fortunately, in the Bible we only have the revealed parts stated as doctrines!

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    I don't find any biblical basis for any of this. According to Paul, men were in this world without God and without hope, walking this natural course of man. I don't think that's what you mean by blinded by God though. There is no shift. The role of Satan found in the NT is found in the OT. I see no difference here.
    I wasn't saying there was a shift in reality--just a shift in emphasis. Once the gospel mission had been proclaimed to the world, Paul's emphasis was less on God blinding men and more on Satan deceiving men. God clearly blinded Israel in the OT era, when Israel refused to cooperate with God's plan. But in the NT era, the concern is with deceived men who hinder the Church. I admit this is not a clear distinction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    I find the idea that Satan can blind whom God is revealing the gospel to absurd.
    I don't find this to be the issue. I wouldn't say that Satan is somehow defeating God's wish to enlighten mankind. On the contrary, God is openly allowing Satan to blind men, who do not look to God for truth, but rather, pursue truth in their own way. God gives them Satan as an answer to their choice for selfishness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    I'm seeing a lot of Reformed/Lutheran/Methodist mantra running through, not just what you have written, but in what I have read everywhere on this topic. If we believe man is dead spiritually and has to be made alive, or have his eyes opened, in order to see the gospel truth, we're on a foundation of sand and can only find ourselves sinking as we attempt go deeper into others truths. We cannot interpret passages such as this properly when we are trying to stand on a lie.
    I have no idea what your point is here? To begin with, your assumption that Reformed truth is an error is purely your own bias--not mine. But even if Reformed truth contains error, you have not identified it at all--only assume it to be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    How is it awkward when it's the undeniable, unmistakable, plain words of Jesus? Paul's letters mention the same leadership, people, and spirit, Jesus said he spoke in parables to hid the truth from an blind. Why? Because the same resistance to the gospel of Jesus Christ still existed from the Jews. Jesus said their father was not God but Satan, but he didn't say Satan blinded them. Did he? No. He said God blinded them because of their unbelief.
    Undoubtedly the "blindness" consisted not just of one thing, but two things: God and Satan. God used Satan's deceptions to blind men, to give them the alternative truth that they pursued. Jesus plainly referred to some people deceived by Satan as being "children of Satan." So did Paul. What this means is that people who had been willfully captured by Satan were deceived, along with Satan, about what constituted justice and truth. They perverted truth to accommodate their own lust for power, for self-actualization. They wanted to go their own way, and not be under God. This was "blindness," involving both God and Satan. God gave them over to Satan and to their own wishes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    As do I, but I must allow interpretation to be influenced by arguments from the same time period because allowing post modern doctrine to influence my interpretation always leads to conflict. So I have to go back to the first couple of centuries and find myself in the same place. I either believe the Jews were able to believe or they were not. Clearly they were. Since they were able to believe and did not, God blinded them, just as it says. If they were not able to believe, I have no where to go, responsibility falls on God. Satan is not found in either scenario as a cause for blinding. This, coupled with the context clearly stating the children of Israel were blinded by the law, leaves me with only one possible conclusion.
    I also agree that anybody, including the Jews, could believe. Many simply chose to follow the path of self-autonomy, as I like to call it. They wanted freedom--freedom from God. And so, God gave them the god they wanted, which was Satan. If they didn't want God, God wasn't going to force Himself upon them. They could have the god of their own imagination, which was rebellion against God, or Satan.

    Satan simply gave them, his followers, the very blindness he himself had, which was that they could make of themselves their own god, which allowed them to determine their own fate. But that was a lie, and God let them have it. Who we can technically say "blinded them" is a semantics battle. But to determine what 2 Cor 4.4 means, we have to know how Paul spoke. And I find that Paul spoke of an evil age, and of Satan. The "god of this age," then, would be for Paul Satan. Just my opinion....

  4. #109

    Re: Is Satan really the god of this world?

    I tim 2:4
    For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    So if God wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth, why would He be going around blinding the same people he says in I Timothy he wants to be save?

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    Re: Is Satan really the god of this world?

    Quote Originally Posted by rom826 View Post
    I tim 2:4
    For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    So if God wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth, why would He be going around blinding the same people he says in I Timothy he wants to be save?
    Answer why God blinds people here and you will have your answer:

    Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
    Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
    Joh 12:40 He (God) hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

    Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
    Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  6. #111
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    Re: Is Satan really the god of this world?

    2Co 3:11 through 2Co 4:15

    for if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
    seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
    and not as moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
    but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in christ.
    but even unto this day, when moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

    *God blinded these people and even today that blindness remains.

    nevertheless when it shall turn to the lord, the vail shall be taken away. now the lord is that spirit: and where the spirit of the lord is, there is liberty.
    but we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the spirit of the lord.
    therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
    but have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of god deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of god. but if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

    *Context matters and the context here is regarding God blinding Israel. Was Israel lost? Was the Gospel hidden from them? Yes. Jer_50:6 "My people hath been lost sheep" . Who the lost are here, the ones that the gospel is hidden from is all here in this letter. Israel.

    in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of christ, who is the image of god, should shine unto them.

    *Keeping context sound, there has been no abrupt change inserting satan into this dialogue. The subject is Israel, the ones who are lost, the ones God blinded, and the ones the Gospel was hidden from. "god" here is the same "god" Paul has been speaking of and the ones being blinded by this "god" are the same ones Paul just mentioned literally a handful of sentences before! Israel.

    for we preach not ourselves, but christ jesus the lord; and ourselves your servants for jesus' sake.
    for god, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of god in the face of jesus christ.

    *Contexually this is the SAME GOD as the one above, " the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not".

    but we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of god, and not of us.
    we are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
    persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
    always bearing about in the body the dying of the lord jesus, that the life also of jesus might be made manifest in our body.

    for we which live are alway delivered unto death for jesus' sake, that the life also of jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
    so then death worketh in us, but life in you.
    we having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, i believed, and therefore have i spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
    knowing that he which raised up the lord jesus shall raise up us also by jesus, and shall present us with you.
    for all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of god.

    *same God being spoken of, same people blinded.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  7. #112
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    Re: Is Satan really the god of this world?

    Quote Originally Posted by rom826 View Post
    I tim 2:4
    For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    So if God wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth, why would He be going around blinding the same people he says in I Timothy he wants to be save?
    ewq1938 left off the verse with the answer.

    Joh 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled........

    Remember....“He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name”

    He didn't blind Jews that believed. The long version.....

    Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    He doesn't blind those that believe so it's not about "people" as you say, as in whosoever/anyone/everyone because there is no record of God doing this anywhere but in the gospels, and only to those that rejected him. Was Paul talking about that or was it still happening? Did this continue in the first century? I think it's very likely. Has he continued this with Israel from then to now? Is it still necessary? I don't think so. You'd have to establish the argument that the nation as a whole, at some point, would have accepted him, and I don't see how that can be done.

  8. #113
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    Re: Is Satan really the god of this world?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I noticed, when reading the Fathers and their positions, on certain subjects, that later Fathers followed the beliefs of earlier Fathers, picking up the same issues, and reiterating them. So when Irenaeus said something about a subject, later Church Fathers tended to read the same and to deal with the same issues, sometimes stating a similar thing.
    I couldn't assume one was following another.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I wasn't saying there was a shift in reality--just a shift in emphasis. Once the gospel mission had been proclaimed to the world, Paul's emphasis was less on God blinding men and more on Satan deceiving men. God clearly blinded Israel in the OT era, when Israel refused to cooperate with God's plan. But in the NT era, the concern is with deceived men who hinder the Church. I admit this is not a clear distinction.
    Not seeing where you're getting this.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't find this to be the issue. I wouldn't say that Satan is somehow defeating God's wish to enlighten mankind. On the contrary, God is openly allowing Satan to blind men, who do not look to God for truth, but rather, pursue truth in their own way. God gives them Satan as an answer to their choice for selfishness.
    That's the problem. People that do not look to God for truth do not need to be blinded.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I have no idea what your point is here? To begin with, your assumption that Reformed truth is an error is purely your own bias--not mine. But even if Reformed truth contains error, you have not identified it at all--only assume it to be there.
    I did. Original sin/sin nature. Man's inability to believe without a switch being flipped. The false doctrine clearly effects how people interpret this verse. Those that hold to this false doctrine do so using random verses out of context, which is the same thing they have to do to interpret this verse incorrectly.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Undoubtedly the "blindness" consisted not just of one thing, but two things: God and Satan. God used Satan's deceptions to blind men, to give them the alternative truth that they pursued. Jesus plainly referred to some people deceived by Satan as being "children of Satan."
    This cannot be established with scripture. Jesus said their father was not God but Satan, but he didn't say Satan blinded them. Did he? No. He said God blinded them because of their unbelief.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I also agree that anybody, including the Jews, could believe. Many simply chose to follow the path of self-autonomy, as I like to call it. They wanted freedom--freedom from God. And so, God gave them the god they wanted, which was Satan.
    Where's this verse?


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Satan simply gave them, his followers, the very blindness he himself had, which was that they could make of themselves their own god, which allowed them to determine their own fate. But that was a lie, and God let them have it. Who we can technically say "blinded them" is a semantics battle. But to determine what 2 Cor 4.4 means, we have to know how Paul spoke. And I find that Paul spoke of an evil age, and of Satan. The "god of this age," then, would be for Paul Satan. Just my opinion....
    Paul spoke of the blinding of Israel by God.

  9. #114
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    Re: Is Satan really the god of this world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I couldn't assume one was following another.
    Not seeing where you're getting this.
    That's the problem. People that do not look to God for truth do not need to be blinded.
    I don't know about that? God does seem to blind people who do not look to God for truth. They seem to want to find truth without resorting to God. So God blinds them. Israel tried to acquire divine revelation for their own selfish purposes, and God closed their eyes. They were unable to acquire blessings that required divine understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    I did. Original sin/sin nature. Man's inability to believe without a switch being flipped. The false doctrine clearly effects how people interpret this verse. Those that hold to this false doctrine do so using random verses out of context, which is the same thing they have to do to interpret this verse incorrectly.
    I didn't get that out of what you shared. Nor do I even understand what you're saying here? Are you saying that the doctrine of Original Sin is said to prevent men from believing? So you're talking about TULIP? Total Depravity? If so, I'm not sure this necessarily follows from the question of who blinds people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    This cannot be established with scripture. Jesus said their father was not God but Satan, but he didn't say Satan blinded them. Did he? No. He said God blinded them because of their unbelief.
    Yes, I agree that the rule seems to be that God blinded men. Satan was their father, however, and that means their blindness stemmed from their choice to follow him. In other words, God blinded them by giving them the beliefs of their father, Satan. It is beyond dispute that Satan is known to be the deceiver of the human race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    Where's this verse?
    It isn't a verse. It's a conclusion based on the story of the Fall. Eve pursued the knowledge of God. But she didn't want to obey God. She therefore sought a different kind of god, one who appeared as God and yet did not represent obedience to God. This god, Satan, offered Eve the right to do as she pleased, rather than what pleased God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    Paul spoke of the blinding of Israel by God.
    Begs the question, though.

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