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Thread: What will we look like?

  1. #16
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    Re: What will we look like?

    I don't understand the belief that the resurrected body of Jesus = the glorified body of Jesus? There seems to be no argument that actually proves this?

    On the contrary, the glorified body seems to be the equivalent of a new physical body with completely new asexual properties. According to Paul this new body is as different from a resurrected mortal body as a heavenly body is different from an earthly body.

    It is physical, and yet very different from the mortal body, with new heavenly characteristics. Being positioned, legally, in heaven with God, we appear as stars. But being physically on the earth we have new heavenly bodies.

    I think Jesus looks very different now from what he did after his resurrection. Just my opinion...

  2. #17
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Why would you think we change so much...are not we made in the image and likeness of God?

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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Well, there's lots of excellent things you say, as well, and whether I agree or not, I usually recognize the thought put into your beliefs. This is a debatable subject, and I introduce it out of personal interest. I have an open mind.

    I typically argue a position until I feel the foundation under my argument crumble! In this case, the foundation for my argument remains strong. So if you're going to change my position, you better get out your sledge!
    Here is the sledgehammer.
    I swing it mightily.

    Hammer-Time!!!

    (We will apply this initial question to Jesus' pre-and-post resurrection body)

    I Cor 15:23, 35 "now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man(Adam) came death, by man(Christ) came also the resurrection of the dead.
    But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?



    15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened(Jesus' post-resurrection body), except it die(Jesus' pre-resurrection body):
    15:37 And that which thou sowest(Jesus' pre-resurrection body), thou sowest not that body that shall be(Jesus' post-resurrection body), but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
    15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
    15:40 There are also celestial bodies(Jesus' post-resurrection body), and bodies terrestrial(Jesus' pre-resurrection body): but the glory of the celestial is one(Jesus' post-resurrection body), and the glory of the terrestrial(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) is another.
    15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption(Jesus' pre-resurrection body); it is raised in incorruption(Jesus' post-resurrection body):
    15:43 It is sown in dishonour(Jesus' pre-resurrection body); it is raised in glory(Jesus' post-resurrection body): it is sown in weakness(Jesus' pre-resurrection body); it is raised in power(Jesus' post-resurrection body):
    15:44 It is sown a natural body(Jesus' pre-resurrection body); it is raised a spiritual body(Jesus' post-resurrection body). There is a natural body(Jesus' pre-resurrection body), and there is a spiritual body.(Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul(Jesus' pre-resurrection body); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural(Jesus' pre-resurrection body); and afterward that which is spiritual. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy(Jesus' pre-resurrection body); the second man is the Lord from heaven. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy(Jesus' pre-resurrection body): and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy(Jesus' pre-resurrection body), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) inherit incorruption. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep(Jesus' pre-resurrection body), but we shall all be changed, (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:53 For this corruptible(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) must put on incorruption (Jesus' post-resurrection body), and this mortal(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) must put on immortality. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:54 So when this corruptible(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) shall have put on incorruption (Jesus' post-resurrection body), and this mortal(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) shall have put on immortality (Jesus' post-resurrection body), then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) is swallowed up in victory. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)

    Every item, characteristic, and description above in Red, is describing Jesus' Sunday Morning, Post-Resurrection body. This is the only Resurrection Body of Jesus that we are ever told about in the scriptures.


    Hammer-Class is over!

    Jeremiah 23:28 "he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD. Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? "

  4. #19
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I like how you take us through the progressions of Jesus' appearance! However, I have to reserve judgment about how much of a physical change took place after Jesus' resurrection. Sure, he went through walls, and seemed to appear anywhere at will. But then again, Lazarus was raised from the dead, and Philip was translated from one place to another in his old natural body. This doesn't require a completely new body. As far as I know, Jesus could do all of these things in his old resurrected body, completely healed after the crucifixion, and yet completely capable of doing miracles as he had done during his earthly ministry?



    Well, the question of whether "rebirth" happened at the administration of the Spirit is an interesting subject, but not relevant here. The claim that a resurrection body is a glorified body is not here proven.



    I don't think the *atonement* has anything to do with establishing when Jesus was actually "glorified?"



    I am not drawing upon what is made "apparent" about Jesus, but more, on the kind of bodies we are all promised. We are promised "glorified bodies." What are they? They are not bodies purely raised from the dead, and healed of mortal wounds. Rather, these are completely new bodies, fashioned, in some way, after our old bodies. I suspect they will look quite different from our present bodies, but believe they will be physical bodies fit for the present, physical, earth.

    1 Cor 15.50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory."

    This change isn't just a resurrection, but also a complete transformation. It takes place at the so-called "Rapture." It will be when we are "caught up to heaven." So my assumption is that after Jesus' resurrection he also had to be *caught up to heaven,* to receive his new glorified body?
    I will let scripture speak for itself, and David Taylor's proof of posting #10 is solid.

    1st Corinthians 15:35-44:

    35 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
    38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."


    The text speaks for itself. I only comment on;
    verse 39. Just as there are differing bodies now, in resurrection the bodies will differ. A Christian's resurrected body will be different to, say Adolf Hitler's.
    verse 43. Note that the resurrection body is raised in glory. It does not need the Rapture. Rapture is an outside force acting upon a human body to defy gravity. Philip was Philip before, and after, Rapture to Azotus. Our Lord Jesus is our Lord Jesus and nothing must be added to His glory.
    verse 37. In Genesis 1:11-12 God set an immutable Law. The seed shall produce according to itself. This Law has two aspects. (i) It produces according to itself, and (ii) the content of the seed is complete. It only needs nourishment to grow. Now, in death, the seed can take other properties as stated in the verse. Death causes the seed to take on a new form. So point (i) is moot for our discussion. (ii) though it dies, and though it be changed, the Law of the seed remains the same. It has nothing added to istelf to grow but nourishment. Thus, the glory of the seed is established as it starts its growth and no further glory can be added.
    verse 44. The word "Spiritual" can have two meanings. (i) A thing is "spiritual" because its intrinsic nature is spirit like an angel, or God (Ps.104:4; Jn.4:24). Or, (ii) a thing is spiritual because it has its origin in the Holy Spirit - like the gifts for building the Church. They are "spiritual Gifts" because they originate in the Holy Spirit. When this verse 44 says that the resurrection body is "spiritual" it is NOT because it is spirit in nature, but because it has its origin in the Holy Spirit (Rom.8:11). The resurrected body is still flesh and bones in nature (Lk.24:39).

  5. #20
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Why would you think we change so much...are not we made in the image and likeness of God?
    I believe we change *a lot!* Paul compared this change, in 1 Cor 15, to the difference between heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. This is a big change!

  6. #21
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Here is the sledgehammer.
    I swing it mightily.

    Hammer-Time!!!

    (We will apply this initial question to Jesus' pre-and-post resurrection body)

    I Cor 15:23, 35 "now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man(Adam) came death, by man(Christ) came also the resurrection of the dead.
    But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?



    15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened(Jesus' post-resurrection body), except it die(Jesus' pre-resurrection body):
    15:37 And that which thou sowest(Jesus' pre-resurrection body), thou sowest not that body that shall be(Jesus' post-resurrection body), but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
    15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
    15:40 There are also celestial bodies(Jesus' post-resurrection body), and bodies terrestrial(Jesus' pre-resurrection body): but the glory of the celestial is one(Jesus' post-resurrection body), and the glory of the terrestrial(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) is another.
    15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption(Jesus' pre-resurrection body); it is raised in incorruption(Jesus' post-resurrection body):
    15:43 It is sown in dishonour(Jesus' pre-resurrection body); it is raised in glory(Jesus' post-resurrection body): it is sown in weakness(Jesus' pre-resurrection body); it is raised in power(Jesus' post-resurrection body):
    15:44 It is sown a natural body(Jesus' pre-resurrection body); it is raised a spiritual body(Jesus' post-resurrection body). There is a natural body(Jesus' pre-resurrection body), and there is a spiritual body.(Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul(Jesus' pre-resurrection body); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural(Jesus' pre-resurrection body); and afterward that which is spiritual. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy(Jesus' pre-resurrection body); the second man is the Lord from heaven. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy(Jesus' pre-resurrection body): and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy(Jesus' pre-resurrection body), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) inherit incorruption. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep(Jesus' pre-resurrection body), but we shall all be changed, (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:53 For this corruptible(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) must put on incorruption (Jesus' post-resurrection body), and this mortal(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) must put on immortality. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)
    15:54 So when this corruptible(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) shall have put on incorruption (Jesus' post-resurrection body), and this mortal(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) shall have put on immortality (Jesus' post-resurrection body), then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death(Jesus' pre-resurrection body) is swallowed up in victory. (Jesus' post-resurrection body)

    Every item, characteristic, and description above in Red, is describing Jesus' Sunday Morning, Post-Resurrection body. This is the only Resurrection Body of Jesus that we are ever told about in the scriptures.


    Hammer-Class is over!

    Jeremiah 23:28 "he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD. Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? "
    Nice try! The resurrection Paul is speaking of leads to the glorfied body--not the resurrection of our mortal bodies into healed mortal bodies!

    When Jesus rose from the dead I believe he was raised up in his old mortal body. I say this because his scars were still with him. I don't believe his new immortal body has any scars.

    Paul was speaking, in 1 Cor 15, of the resurrection the *saints* will experience when they are raised from the dead. At the "Rapture" we will be raised not into our old bodies, healed but still mortal! Rather, we will be raised up in new immortal bodies. That's what Paul is saying here.

  7. #22
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I will let scripture speak for itself, and David Taylor's proof of posting #10 is solid.
    No, D. Taylor's argument isn't in the least solid. And I don't mean that disrespectfully. He is completely missing the argument. He is arguing over the resurrection of the saints, which he assumes are our glorified, immortal bodies. Nobody is even questioning this. The resurrection of the saints is not the same thing as the healing of our old bodies. When Jesus rose from the dead, he was raised up in his *old body!* The scars he bore indicate this, in my opinion.

  8. #23
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not sure that helps a lot, brother? But I agree--we will be like him when we see him as he is.

    As to the Transfiguration event, I don't know if that was a glorified body Jesus appeared in, or simply the Father glorifying him? There is a lot more in the Transfiguration event that I need to explore some time!
    For me, when Jesus revealed Himself Glorified (majesty ?), we find exactly what it will be "like." Also, check this out:

    1 Peter 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son,[i] with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  9. #24
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, D. Taylor's argument isn't in the least solid. And I don't mean that disrespectfully. He is completely missing the argument. He is arguing over the resurrection of the saints, which he assumes are our glorified, immortal bodies. Nobody is even questioning this. The resurrection of the saints is not the same thing as the healing of our old bodies. When Jesus rose from the dead, he was raised up in his *old body!* The scars he bore indicate this, in my opinion.
    Because you refrain from using scripture it is difficult to argue. The judge of our statements is scripture. If we have no judge then we can maintain any hair-brained thesis. In your Original Posting you proposed two major things:
    1. You proposed that our Lord's resurrection was not a resurrection but a "healing" of His dead body. In this, you defy the fact that while God can heal, and does, the solution for death is not healing. It is resurrection. Scripture proposes th solution as if a seed died and was buried. You propose that the seed is healed.
    2. You proposed that our Lord Jesus, as time progressed, "scrapped His old Body" and took on a new and glorious body, and that this would be our portion as well. But David Taylor's proffered verse contradicts your thesis. IF our Lord has gone through several metamorphosises, it does not matter a wit. At our resurrection we will be like Him THEN - after all His transformations. That is, we be resurrected at whatever end-stage you propose.

    Scripture shows our Lord Jesus with a Body in life. This Body is the Temple of His Father. Our Lord said in John 2:19, "... Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." At what stage, do you say, that "THIS" Temple is "scrapped"? NO! The Lamb of Golgotha is still the Lamb which is the Temple of New Jerusalem in all eternity future (Rev.21:22).

    Next, scripture says in 1st Corinthians 15:42-44;

    42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (the BODY - context) is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."


    In all this, the grammar shows it to be the same body - just with a change in various intrinsic properties. IT (this body we have now) is corruptible, dead, dishonorable, weak, natural, and containing blood for its life. But IT (the same body) is raised (not healed) in incorruption, new human life, honor, power, spiritual and having as its vitality, eternal life. But IT remains IT.

    In death our Lord Jesus is marred by the nails and the spear. In resurrection He produces this marring as proof to doubting Thomas. And two thousand years later, as He bursts forth from the clouds over Olivet, and touches down, the Judeans will see "Him Whom they PIERCED". The Jews living in Judea are not those who clamored for His death. 2,000 years have gone by. Generations have unfolded. How will they who never saw Jesus decide Who He is? By the PIERCINGS! Do they still know what His face looks like? Can they identify Him by photo or finger print? No! Not even we who love the Lord know what He looks like. Do the Jews look to heaven for their Messiah? No! They still look to Bethlehem. What shall be be the defining mark that makes them mourn over One Who comes out of the clouds? HIS PIERCINGS!

    Scripture is clear. That BODY which our Lord Jesus declared to be the Temple of God, is NOT "scrapped". "IT" is the same Body. "IT" still has its "piercings". "IT" just varies in the GLORY it displays, just as our Lord Jesus, IN THE SAME BODY, "changed" His glory on the Mount of Transfiguration.

  10. #25
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    For me, when Jesus revealed Himself Glorified (majesty ?), we find exactly what it will be "like." Also, check this out:

    1 Peter 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son,[i] with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
    I agree this scriptures are talking about the Lord at the transfiguration. But nowhere in scriptures does it say that we will be glorified that was only Jesus. When the disciples saw Jesus in the transfiguration He did shine.. they however did not say this about Moses and Elias they only said it about Jesus.

    To me the words glorify and glorified all belong to God and Son of God being God. I do not see those applying to people in the Lord. I see the words applying to God only.

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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    For me, when Jesus revealed Himself Glorified (majesty ?), we find exactly what it will be "like." Also, check this out:

    1 Peter 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son,[i] with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
    The glorious voice of God has little to do with the question. Sorry! I do recognize in this passage, however, that God glorified Jesus, not in a bodily sense, but rather, in the sense of identifying who he was. The change in his appearance confirmed this. But it was not a resurrection, nor was it the assumption of a new glorified body. Close, but no cigar.

  12. #27
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Because you refrain from using scripture it is difficult to argue.
    Back to that again? It seems whenever you lack the ability to refute something I say, you resort to this. You say I don't use Scriptures--falsely, I might add.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    The judge of our statements is scripture. If we have no judge then we can maintain any hair-brained thesis. In your Original Posting you proposed two major things:
    [LIST=1][*]You proposed that our Lord's resurrection was not a resurrection but a "healing" of His dead body. In this, you defy the fact that while God can heal, and does, the solution for death is not healing. It is resurrection. Scripture proposes th solution as if a seed died and was buried. You propose that the seed is healed.
    No, this isn't true at all. The seed of a resurrection to immortality is not a healing. The resurrection of Jesus was, however, a healing, because he retained his scars. Do I really have to quote the passage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    You proposed that our Lord Jesus, as time progressed, "scrapped His old Body" and took on a new and glorious body, and that this would be our portion as well. But David Taylor's proffered verse contradicts your thesis. IF our Lord has gone through several metamorphosises, it does not matter a wit. At our resurrection we will be like Him THEN - after all His transformations. That is, we be resurrected at whatever end-stage you propose.
    I don't understand what you mean by "all of Jesus' metamorphoses?" Jesus was healed after his crucifixion. And after he ascended into heaven he was glorified. These are 2 major changes, none of which indicate an argument on your part. I've already answered D. Taylor's argument. There is a big difference between the healing of Jesus after his crucifixion and the glorification of Jesus after his ascension. And yes, a resurrection is indeed a healing, albeit the most glorious kind of healing. How else is a scar formed except by healing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    Scripture shows our Lord Jesus with a Body in life. This Body is the Temple of His Father. Our Lord said in John 2:19, "... Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." At what stage, do you say, that "THIS" Temple is "scrapped"? NO! The Lamb of Golgotha is still the Lamb which is the Temple of New Jerusalem in all eternity future (Rev.21:22).
    I believe Jesus "scrapped" his mortal body because it was a temporary body. I believe he did this to pave the way to the scrapping of our own mortal bodies, simply because we need new ones. After all, he died for us. He did not have to die. He was guilty of nothing. He died for us, because we are the ones who were and are guilty. He therefore died, and rose from the dead. And then he put on a new gloriouis body to pave the way for our own transformation. He does not want us healed and returned to our old physical bodies, which are flawed, and contaminated with the sin nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    Next, scripture says in 1st Corinthians 15:42-44;

    42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (the BODY - context) is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."


    In all this, the grammar shows it to be the same body - just with a change in various intrinsic properties. IT (this body we have now) is corruptible, dead, dishonorable, weak, natural, and containing blood for its life. But IT (the same body) is raised (not healed) in incorruption, new human life, honor, power, spiritual and having as its vitality, eternal life. But IT remains IT.
    No, these are not the same bodies, in my opinion. They are dramatically different bodies! They are the same personalities, but very different bodies. I've also pointed out that they are asexual, more akin to angels than to sinful men. You have provided the Scriptures, and I rely on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    In death our Lord Jesus is marred by the nails and the spear. In resurrection He produces this marring as proof to doubting Thomas. And two thousand years later, as He bursts forth from the clouds over Olivet, and touches down, the Judeans will see "Him Whom they PIERCED". The Jews living in Judea are not those who clamored for His death. 2,000 years have gone by. Generations have unfolded. How will they who never saw Jesus decide Who He is? By the PIERCINGS! Do they still know what His face looks like? Can they identify Him by photo or finger print? No! Not even we who love the Lord know what He looks like. Do the Jews look to heaven for their Messiah? No! They still look to Bethlehem. What shall be be the defining mark that makes them mourn over One Who comes out of the clouds? HIS PIERCINGS!
    This proves nothing in my argument! Yes, the piercings helped identify a man who may have looked like many others, having facial hair at the time, and who was thought dead. This suggests to me a healing of the old body--not a new glorified body!

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    Scripture is clear. That BODY which our Lord Jesus declared to be the Temple of God, is NOT "scrapped". "IT" is the same Body. "IT" still has its "piercings". "IT" just varies in the GLORY it displays, just as our Lord Jesus, IN THE SAME BODY, "changed" His glory on the Mount of Transfiguration.
    Assertions cannot be considered proofs. Sorry!

  13. #28
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Randy you keep saying Jesus was not glorified till after He ascended and that He was somehow different then. I believe that happened after Mary saw Him and before He saw the disciples as I stated before that He then could be touched by Thomas. Jesus gave them the Holy Ghost then fulfilling Joh 7:39.

    Doesn't this point out that Jesus had been glorified?

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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Randy you keep saying Jesus was not glorified till after He ascended and that He was somehow different then. I believe that happened after Mary saw Him and before He saw the disciples as I stated before that He then could be touched by Thomas. Jesus gave them the Holy Ghost then fulfilling Joh 7:39.

    Doesn't this point out that Jesus had been glorified?
    I don't see Jesus being physically glorified when he met Mary. When Jesus told her not to touch him, I think the idea is that Jesus was indicating he was still in the process of fulfilling a particular mission, namely going to heaven to receive a new glorified body. I think he wanted us to know that healing in this life is not enough--we need to be made immortal, to have our sinful bodies completely disposed of in favor of brand new bodies.

    John 20.17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    The idea was that Jesus didn't want Mary to "hold onto," or "restrain" him, in any way. He didn't want her to cling onto his resurrection form, nor to try to keep his earthly presence there with her for any length of time. There was a mission to accomplish, and Jesus' presence had to leave his present earthly form until we likewise obtain new heavenly forms.

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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Back to that again? It seems whenever you lack the ability to refute something I say, you resort to this. You say I don't use Scriptures--falsely, I might add.



    No, this isn't true at all. The seed of a resurrection to immortality is not a healing. The resurrection of Jesus was, however, a healing, because he retained his scars. Do I really have to quote the passage?



    I don't understand what you mean by "all of Jesus' metamorphoses?" Jesus was healed after his crucifixion. And after he ascended into heaven he was glorified. These are 2 major changes, none of which indicate an argument on your part. I've already answered D. Taylor's argument. There is a big difference between the healing of Jesus after his crucifixion and the glorification of Jesus after his ascension. And yes, a resurrection is indeed a healing, albeit the most glorious kind of healing. How else is a scar formed except by healing?



    I believe Jesus "scrapped" his mortal body because it was a temporary body. I believe he did this to pave the way to the scrapping of our own mortal bodies, simply because we need new ones. After all, he died for us. He did not have to die. He was guilty of nothing. He died for us, because we are the ones who were and are guilty. He therefore died, and rose from the dead. And then he put on a new gloriouis body to pave the way for our own transformation. He does not want us healed and returned to our old physical bodies, which are flawed, and contaminated with the sin nature.



    No, these are not the same bodies, in my opinion. They are dramatically different bodies! They are the same personalities, but very different bodies. I've also pointed out that they are asexual, more akin to angels than to sinful men. You have provided the Scriptures, and I rely on them.



    This proves nothing in my argument! Yes, the piercings helped identify a man who may have looked like many others, having facial hair at the time, and who was thought dead. This suggests to me a healing of the old body--not a new glorified body!



    Assertions cannot be considered proofs. Sorry!
    OK. I didn't expect more. But maybe somebody else will profit from our exchange. I will let my posting stand, but give one more proof - of course in the expectation that you will not counter it with scripture (the purpose of this Forum). Consider this:

    The gospel of John is very different to the other three. Theologians call Matthew, Mark and Luke the "synoptic" gospels. They present us with Christ in all His glory as a Man. John presents our Lord Jesus in all His glory as God. And the theme of the Gospel is to take up where Adam halted - the Tree of Life and how to get God into man so that man can partake of the divine life and be a Companion to, and House for, God. John 20:30-31 gives the purpose of the record of John.

    30 "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
    31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."


    John Chapter 1 starts with seven things to end up at "Bethel" - the House of God. Chapter 2 reveals a Wedding, Bride, Groom and God's House. Chapter 3 shows how a mere human can be up to the standard of God by a second, new, heavenly and spiritual birth. And so on. When we come to Chapter 14 we our Lord Jesus prophesies that He will go away to prepare a place for the disciples and return to dwell in them (Jn.14:1-3, 20). This, our Lord Jesus does. He dies to put away sins - the stumbling block to the Tree of Life, rests in Hades three days and rises. Shortly after rising He meets some women disciples and commands them not to touch Him as He had not been to the Father. But that evening, when all the disciples were gathered in a room, He appeared to them and;
    1. commanded that they touch and handle Him, showing that He had been to the Father
    2. breathed the Holy Spirit INTO His disciples, causing the Person of the Holy Spirit to be "with them and IN them" - making them the House of God

    In this, our Lord Jesus PRECISELY fulfilled John 14:1-3 & 20. He had gone away. He had gone away to prepare for them to be "abodes" (not mansions), returned and breathed Himself in the Person of the holy Spirit INTO them. That this was the rebirth is indicated by John 20:17b, "... but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." One cannot be "brethren" of Jesus without having the same Father, and one cannot have God as "our" Father without being born to Him. But an often neglected CONDITION is also fulfilled in connection with the disciples RECEIVING the Holy Spirit in John 20:22.

    In John 7:38-39 it reads;

    38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"


    That the Holy Spirit would be RECEIVED by the disciples is shown by the fact that OUT of a man who believes will flow the "rivers of living waters", which in the next verse is clearly said to be an issue of the Holy Spirit. But this Holy Spirit was to be held back and NOT GIVEN until our Lord Jesus was GLORIFIED. On the morning of resurrection day no-one may touch our Lord Jesus because He had not yet presented His blood to the Father (Heb.9:12), and not yet presented Himself as the "Firstfruits of the dead" to the Father - Who claims right to all firstfruits (1st Cor.15:20-23; Col.1:18). But then, that evening the disciples RECEIVED this Holy Spirit. This could only happen if our Lord Jesus WAS GLORIFIED!

    I respectfully submit that our Lord Jesus, on the day of resurrection, was GLORIFIED and no more changes to His Body were made after that. What happened at future events, as I submitted in my first posting, was not a new level of glorification, but an UNVEILING to a greater extent of what was already there.

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