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Thread: What will we look like?

  1. #61
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Ok, how would you address these passages (assuming the common premill second-advent interpretation); that depict Christ still bearing the marks of His crucifixion, even after the ascension, and after your theory of heavenly-final-body reception (for lack of a better term).


    Zechariah 12:9 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon."

    Zedchariah 13:6 "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
    Zech 12 does speak of seeing Christ at his 2nd Advent, the "one who had been pierced." It doesn't mention "scars," though. The Jews will see Jesus, whom they had killed many years prior. They will know it's him. I don't think they'll see any scars--they'll just know he's the one who had been crucified many centuries earlier.

    Zech 13 speaks not of Christ, who was wounded in his hands. Rather, this seems to speak of nominal believers in the Millennial Kingdom, who received wounds in their hands either for idolatry or for punishment. They acknowledge those who believe in proper practice of the truth, apparently ashamed of their wrong-doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor
    Next, do you see this verse 'not talking about his bodily resurrection' but rather a later heavenly post-ascension body?

    I Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    If this is Jesus' resurrected golgotha body; how would that body be the firstfruits of them that sleep; seeing that regular bodily resurrection (return to mortal state) began centuries before Jesus' body, with both Elijah and Elisha examples.

    If this however, is speaking of Jesus' resurrection body being his final glorified body; wouldn't that make the entire tenor of this chapter be discussing Jesus' resurrected glorified body? Not His return to a mortally asleep body?

    Does it create confusion to imply that the resurrected (Golgotha) body of Christ, that all scriptures outside of I Corinthians refer to when they discuss the 'resurrection of Christ'; in this chapter now switches to a different resurrection body of Jesus' that he only received up in heaven after His ascension?
    It doesn't confuse me to know that the person who was raised up in his old mortal body was the 1st to also don an immortal body. What makes him the "firstfruits of the resurrection" is not just that he was raised from the dead, but that he also went on to put on an immortal body.

    The whole question revolves around the biblical terminology of the "glorious body." What does that mean?

    Phil 3.21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

  2. #62
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Other scripture affirm the saved shall also receive glory.
    So you see yourself the same as Jesus? I see a difference. I am pointing out there is a difference between you and Jesus and the way these words are understood.

  3. #63
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Really? Well, that's interesting. I thought Jesus said we would be like the angels--genderless?

    Matt 22.30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
    Luke's version is a little more clear in what He meant:

    And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luke 20:34-36)

    The comparison to angels is in relation to death rather than gender. When the Pharisees and Sadducees asked about marriage, it was always in the context of post-fall with the assumption of death. But Jesus said:

    “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female." (Matthew 19)

    With death being destroyed, it prompts what He said in Luke 20. There will be no need for marriage under the Law, because no one will need to transfer property after passing, because no one will die anymore, because we will be equal to angels and sons of God. This does not speak to what God created "from the beginning", male and female, which predated the Law and sin. Hence why Jesus brings up "what God has brought together" in order to dismantle fallen systems such as divorce and marriage.

    I think gender is too crucial in understanding who we are and how God created us - the relation was made in the image of God, which would be lost if we become genderless.

    So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (Genesis 1)
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  4. #64
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Luke's version is a little more clear in what He meant:

    And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luke 20:34-36)

    The comparison to angels is in relation to death rather than gender. When the Pharisees and Sadducees asked about marriage, it was always in the context of post-fall with the assumption of death. But Jesus said:

    “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female." (Matthew 19)

    With death being destroyed, it prompts what He said in Luke 20. There will be no need for marriage under the Law, because no one will need to transfer property after passing, because no one will die anymore, because we will be equal to angels and sons of God. This does not speak to what God created "from the beginning", male and female, which predated the Law and sin. Hence why Jesus brings up "what God has brought together" in order to dismantle fallen systems such as divorce and marriage.

    I think gender is too crucial in understanding who we are and how God created us - the relation was made in the image of God, which would be lost if we become genderless.

    So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (Genesis 1)
    Well, that's a reasonable argument, because I utilize the same kind of argument in arguing that the same old earth will be "remodeled" in the Age to Come. It will not be an entirely new earth because in the beginning God made the 1st earth in its pristine state, and rested, having *finished* Creation.

    However, I see the purpose of Man as not multiplying for all eternity, and gendered pairs are for multiplying. Once the earth is "full," there is no more need for multiplication. And if there is no more need for multiplication, there is no more need for gender, neither male nor female. I believe our glorious new bodies will indeed be brand new bodies, and genderless.

    I can't explain how God planned the outcome of this from the beginning of Creation. For example, how did He originally intend to dispose of our gendered bodies once the earth was "full?" Perhaps there was to be a transition from one body to another, once the multiplication of mankind was complete? Perhaps a metamorphosis of some kind?

    It wouldn't have to require death. It certainly didn't require death for Enoch and Elijah, except that having been born in sin these two likely did experience a kind of death, in the putting off of their old bodies.

    But it's a great point, and I don't have any satisfying answer to it myself. Thanks.

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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    However, I see the purpose of Man as not multiplying for all eternity, and gendered pairs are for multiplying. Once the earth is "full," there is no more need for multiplication. And if there is no more need for multiplication, there is no more need for gender, neither male nor female.
    But I think there's an importance behind Him saying "male and female" being "in the image of God." There are elements of gender that remain whether a person or couple ever has children or not. I suppose God can do whatever He wants though, so in the end my guess is as good as yours.

    I can't explain how God planned the outcome of this from the beginning of Creation. For example, how did He originally intend to dispose of our gendered bodies once the earth was "full?" Perhaps there was to be a transition from one body to another, once the multiplication of mankind was complete? Perhaps a metamorphosis of some kind?
    Well, why would he need to transform something that was already created "very good?"
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  6. #66
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Really? Well, that's interesting. I thought Jesus said we would be like the angels--genderless?

    Matt 22.30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
    Gender isn't mentioned. That's an assumption.

    All Christ said there is we will be like the angels who do not marry each other so we won't marry each other either. Nothing else is said or implied other than that.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  7. #67
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    So you see yourself the same as Jesus?
    No, I said what the scripture say, that the saved will receive glory. It's a fact. If you disagree then your argument is with scripture.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    But I think there's an importance behind Him saying "male and female" being "in the image of God." There are elements of gender that remain whether a person or couple ever has children or not. I suppose God can do whatever He wants though, so in the end my guess is as good as yours.



    Well, why would he need to transform something that was already created "very good?"
    I'd suggest reading chp 6 for that answer.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  9. #69
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I'd suggest reading chp 6 for that answer.
    I was asking in the context of Randy's hypothetical, pre-fall.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  10. #70
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    I was asking in the context of Randy's hypothetical, pre-fall.
    The point is that people degrade from the initial "very good" beginning into something not good.

    Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.


    Other translations:


    (CEV) I did learn one thing: We were completely honest when God created us, but now we have twisted minds.


    (ESV) See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.


    (GW) I have found only this: God made people decent, but they looked for many ways to avoid being decent."


    (MSG) Yet I did spot one ray of light in this murk: God made men and women true and upright; we're the ones who've made a mess of things.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  11. #71
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The point is that people degrade from the initial "very good" beginning into something not good.

    Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
    True, but do you believe this will be the case again after the resurrection?
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  12. #72
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    True, but do you believe this will be the case again after the resurrection?
    no .
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  13. #73
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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It's been of interest to me for some time, but I'm not sure the Bible gives us any clear answers. My own belief is that Jesus was raised from the dead in his old body, essentially *healed* from death. This means he did not yet have his "glorified body."
    I'm late and this has probably already been tossed back and forth in the comments, but no way do I believe that Jesus was raised back to mortality. The power of the Resurrection is unto immortality and incorruption. There is not a single verse to support the idea of a *healed* body. He would appear and disappear. That wasn't part of His earthly profile.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

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    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    I'm late and this has probably already been tossed back and forth in the comments, but no way do I believe that Jesus was raised back to mortality.
    Yes Paul makes it clear it is sown in mortality but raised in immortality.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    I'm late and this has probably already been tossed back and forth in the comments, but no way do I believe that Jesus was raised back to mortality.
    Yes Paul makes it clear it is sown in mortality but raised in immortality.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #75

    Re: What will we look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree with those passages. Why would I need to re-think my position?
    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 thes 4:17

    I do not think we are caught up to heaven but to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, who is descending. We will meet him and then descend with him>

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