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Thread: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

  1. #46

    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Our only way to the Father is through Jesus any other way is a dead end.
    Exactly!

    And the entire Epistle to the Hebrews explains in detail how Jesus makes the sacrifices in the Temple obsolete.

  2. #47

    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    I think they will eventually attempt/build a third temple, ( but I strongly suspect God will stop this atrocity at some stage ) question really is, does God want this, does the Bible teach this will happen? I can’t fathom why. A fourth temple? Wow.... let’s hope not.
    Do you think Ezekiel is a false prophet? Chapters 40-48 describe in great detail the Temple Jesus will sit in during the Millennium. It is unmistakable, complete with measurements, etc. The Law and Temple sacrifices never atoned for intentional sin.

    Besides, there are many scriptures that state plainly that all the ordinances of the Law are for Israel throughout all their generations, even forever. Why do you not believe them?

    There are a great number of Christians ( and theologians ) who have more than a problem with any future temples being built.
    With all due respect, if their names are not Moses or one of the prophets, I do not at all care what they think.

    We are so far apart it’s shocking. Every Christian should be appalled at this prospect.
    Jesus said plainly that He did not come to abolish the Law, but so many just plain do not believe Him. Those who live by faith have nothing to fear from the children of Israel or the Law given to them only.

    John the Baptist will build the third temple? Where do you get this from ?
    Matthew 17:10 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”
    11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.

    Future tense. Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. John restored nothing. 2000 years ago John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah and he said NO, though Jesus said he is. Gabriel prophesied that he would come in the spirit and POWER of Elijah, yet he did not even preform a single sign 2000 years ago. Scripture says John would turn the hearts to the "wisdom of the Just." The Just are those who live by faith, faith in the gospel. John was beheaded before anyone knew the gospel 2000 years ago. It is quite obvious that John will return and fulfill all that is written of him. I realize you probably cannot accept this now, but things will change at the end of this year.

  3. #48
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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Why is that a false teaching?
    Paul noted that all the Jews remained under the Law of Moses at that time.
    I think you know the answer to this? NT theology clearly declares that God no longer honors the Law of Moses as a system of atonement for sin. The veil was torn, and Jesus died, becoming the final and only remaining atonement for sin.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Note Acts 15, they did not state that any Jew was free to ignore the Law of Moses.
    Where is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Paul didn't teach that Jews could ignore the Law, he simply noted that the Law is fulfilled through Jesus.
    The Law of Moses had an expiration date, and that was at the death of Jesus. With the death of Jesus, all compliance under the Law died. His death merely showed what had already been true, that all of man's works fall short of eternal life.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Most Christians note that we are to Love the Lord our God with all our heart etc, which is but a summation of the Law as given to Moses:
    Deu 6:4* “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.*
    Deu 6:5* You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.*
    The principles of morality under the Law are eternal. The Law as a covenant is dead. Anything else is false doctrine.

  4. #49

    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnE View Post
    Do you think Ezekiel is a false prophet? Chapters 40-48 describe in great detail the Temple Jesus will sit in during the Millennium.
    No, it doesn't. Jesus will not sit in a physical temple. See the Epistle to the Hebrews.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnE View Post
    Matthew 17:10 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”
    11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.

    Future tense.
    Matthew 17:12a: But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased.

    Past tense.

  5. #50
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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    Jesus will not sit in a physical temple.
    Rev 22
    1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

    Well, if there is a throne in eternity then someone will be sitting upon it.

    We are told there will be no temple THEREIN the city but there is still a throne?

    The key is to understand that the temple/throne will not be located within the city however there will be one outside the city on the north side.



    So how do we know this? Does the river of life give us a clue? The river of life flows from the throne and if no temple/throne inside the city then it is outside among the 144,000 Israel. Does scripture support this? Yes.

    Rev 22
    1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
    2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    Another key is to understand the temple in Ezekiel's vision is a parallel if not the actual temple to be in eternity whereby the river runs out from, and it is located in the land outside the city on the north part.

    EZ 47
    1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
    7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

    The tribe of Judah will be on the north side of the city wherein the temple will be located. And Levities without a temple?

    EZ 48
    8 And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it.

    EZ 48
    31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi


    Interestingly, why God laid out the blue prints of the temple...…..I mean if you were the AC would you not use this to fabricate/counterfeit a temple for himself? I doubt this would be a overlook by God but his plan.

    IS 14
    13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

  6. #51
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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    The only purpose it served after Jesus died was a grace period so that they could see the events in the temple pointed to Jesus but the nation missed it which was why God destroyed it.
    If the temple still served a purpose then why did God destroy it and why isn't there a temple today?
    You seam to try to pick sections of people post apart but you also avoid great points that they make like when I said that the disciples were there for Jesus' sake.
    How can it be a grace period IF as you claim such is an abomination to God? Are you really saying God was continuing abominations?
    As for why was the temple destroyed, the same question could be asked why the temple was destroyed in 586 BC.

    Our only way to the Father is through Jesus any other way is a dead end.
    And?
    How did Noah come to God or Abraham or Moses?
    What about King David?
    The ONLY way for them as for us is through Jesus, but this in no way removes the temple or sacrifices.

    Luke 19:41-44 explains it
    It explains that the temple was to be destroyed, but it suggests that if they had accepted Jesus then possibly the temple would not have been destroyed.
    Your error is in putting the temple (and the Law) against Jesus, when the two actually complement each other.

    Where do you see the 2W will be in the temple?
    Rev 11.

  7. #52
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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    There is nothing in those passages to definitively indicated that Paul sacrificed animals or participated/condoned a return/continuation to/of the OT sacrificial system. He/they seems to be going through a ritual of purification for spiritual purposes. It is the only place mentioned that this happens.
    Actually Acts 21 DEFINITIVELY shows that Paul sacrificed animals:
    17 - 24 When we had come to Jerusalem, the brothers received us gladly. On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.

    You yourself live in observance of the Law. I am not sure it could be much clearer than that.
    Paul was to be involved with the requirements of the Nazirite vow which included the killing of animals in sacrifice.

    How can you claim that something can be done for spiritual purposes and then say it cannot be done?

    Is the mention of something in the New Testament a "Prescription" for for us today? Literalists say yes.
    I am not saying we should be going to the temple and sacrificing animals at the moment (not possible as no temple), however it is those arguing that it was NOT DONE by the early church who are clearly wrong.
    I am highlighting that NONE of the apostles including Paul had an issue with animal sacrifice. There is NO conflict in doing so, yet some try to argue that it is an abomination etc.

    Just because something is mentioned, does that mean we are commanded to do it and to do it for the entire age until Jesus comes again? We say, obviously no. We would have never have gotten out of the Old Covenant if that was the case.
    When we are COMMANDED to do something then we should do it.
    If a prophecy states that such a thing will happen, then even if it is not something we will do, that does not mean it will not happen.
    The Post-Nicene Fathers were particularly anti-semitic and their teaching has permeated the church for the last 1600+ years.
    The simple fact is this is prophesied:

    Zech 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.
    ...
    14:20 - 21 And on that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “Holy to the LORD.” And the pots in the house of the LORD shall be as the bowls before the altar. And every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holy to the LORD of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them and boil the meat of the sacrifice in them. And there shall no longer be a trader in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.

    Note the comparison with what Jesus found and kicked the traders out of the temple.

  8. #53
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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I think you know the answer to this? NT theology clearly declares that God no longer honors the Law of Moses as a system of atonement for sin. The veil was torn, and Jesus died, becoming the final and only remaining atonement for sin.
    Nope not NT theology, but that of the Catholic church, which was then accepted by the reformers without being dealt with.
    The Law of Moses was NEVER an atonement for sin.
    Jesus has ALWAYS been the ONLY atonement for sin.
    Hebrews 10:4 states this quite clearly:
    For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

    Where is that?
    Acts 15 is in the Bible.
    Note the follow up in Acts 21.

    The Law of Moses had an expiration date, and that was at the death of Jesus. With the death of Jesus, all compliance under the Law died. His death merely showed what had already been true, that all of man's works fall short of eternal life.
    Really, an expiration date? So why then did the church in Jerusalem continue to keep it? Why did Paul seek to show he kept it?
    The Law of Moses is the Law of God as given SPECIFICALLY for Israel.
    It is a codification of how to live as a society under God.
    The basis of it, the Law of God remains, and that of Moses has not been removed from those of Israel.

    The principles of morality under the Law are eternal. The Law as a covenant is dead. Anything else is false doctrine.
    Nope the covenant is not dead. To claim so is a false doctrine.
    It is old and it is passing away, and should have passed away already, but they rejected Jesus and so are stuck with it UNTIL they receive Him.

  9. #54
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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    How can it be a grace period IF as you claim such is an abomination to God? Are you really saying God was continuing abominations?
    God didn't continue abominations why would you say that as I didn't say anything like that? What I was saying is that God allowed it to happen for a time period as God is patient to save people.

    As for why was the temple destroyed, the same question could be asked why the temple was destroyed in 586 BC.
    They are the same and different the difference is that God hasn't allowed it to happen again because sin sacrifices are needed no more.

    And?
    How did Noah come to God or Abraham or Moses?
    What about King David?
    The ONLY way for them as for us is through Jesus, but this in no way removes the temple or sacrifices.
    So why hasn't the temple and sacrifices been reestablish?

    When Jesus died He stated that it is finished Jesus fulfilled it all at the cross. We can have remorse now for sin and repent but no penance or price is required anymore.

    [QUOTE]It explains that the temple was to be destroyed, but it suggests that if they had accepted Jesus then possibly the temple would not have been destroyed.
    Your error is in putting the temple (and the Law) against Jesus, when the two actually complement each other.[QUOTE]

    I don't pin the temple and the law against Jesus I am saying that they are no longer required because of Jesus. That being said there would be no problem if the temple was built and used as our churches are today.

    Rev 11.
    Rev 11 says no such thing what verse are you referring too?

    I am trying to figure you out as it seams that you just like to argue. Now I know that you are not trying to anger people but try to teach them the truth but why do you just point out the things that you don't agree with and skip over the points that they say are correct?

    For example I pointed out that the disciples did not go to the temple with the same intent as the Christ rejecting Jews that were there that same day but you conveniently skipped over that point.

    I honestly mean this as a helpful hints but maybe not starting your post with the word "nope" might get you a better reaction to your poss too

  10. #55
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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope not NT theology, but that of the Catholic church, which was then accepted by the reformers without being dealt with.
    I see. So you think the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church are all wrong, and ForHisglory is right?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    The Law of Moses was NEVER an atonement for sin.
    Of course it was. That's why the priesthood, the altar, and the sacrifices!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Jesus has ALWAYS been the ONLY atonement for sin.
    No, he has always been the only *final* atonement for sin.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Hebrews 10:4 states this quite clearly:
    For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
    The Law provided *temporary* atonement for sin. The blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins *permanently.*

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Acts 15 is in the Bible.
    Note the follow up in Acts 21.
    I would if you had any argument at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Really, an expiration date? So why then did the church in Jerusalem continue to keep it? Why did Paul seek to show he kept it?
    I've answered this before, but I'll indulge you. Paul kept the Law to act in a respectful way towards the Jews, who believed they were still under the Law, and found their cultural practices a token of respect for their God. Paul did *not* keep the Law because he felt he actually achieved anything from the Lord other than to secure a platform among the Jews to evangelize them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    The Law of Moses is the Law of God as given SPECIFICALLY for Israel.
    It was under the OT covenant. But that covenant is past.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    It is a codification of how to live as a society under God.
    The basis of it, the Law of God remains, and that of Moses has not been removed from those of Israel.
    The universal Law of God remains, but not under the covenant of Moses.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Nope the covenant is not dead. To claim so is a false doctrine.
    It is old and it is passing away, and should have passed away already, but they rejected Jesus and so are stuck with it UNTIL they receive Him.
    Nope. This is false doctrine. Paul unequivocally said the Law of Moses as a covenant is passé.

  11. #56
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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually Acts 21 DEFINITIVELY shows that Paul sacrificed animals:
    17 - 24 When we had come to Jerusalem, the brothers received us gladly. On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.
    Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
    24. them take, and purify thyself with them] i.e. make thyself one of their company, and observe all the ordinances, with regard to purification and keeping from what is unclean, which they observe.
    Barnes' Notes on the Bible
    24Them take - Take with you. Join yourself with them.
    And purify thyself with them - Join them in observing the forms of purification prescribed by the Law of Moses in the observance of the vow of the Nazarite. The purifying here refers to the vows of sanctity which the Nazarites were to observe. They were to abstain from wine and strong drink; they were to eat no grapes, moist or dried; they were to come near no dead body, nor to make themselves "unclean" for their father, mother, brother, or sister, when they died Numbers 6:3-7; and they were to present an offering when the days of the vow were completed, Numbers 6:8.
    1 Corinthians 9:20-22 New International Version (NIV)
    20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.


    I feel Marty is correct. From the death of Jesus until 70AD was a “grace period” allowed by God for every last Jew to come to faith and to know the long promised Messiah.

    So many did.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  12. #57

    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually Acts 21 DEFINITIVELY shows that Paul sacrificed animals
    Actually, that passage doesn't mention sacrifice at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The Law of Moses is the Law of God as given SPECIFICALLY for Israel.
    It is a codification of how to live as a society under God.
    The New Testament explains how to live as a society under God. This applies to all people, including Jews.

  13. #58
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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    Actually, that passage doesn't mention sacrifice at all.
    Then you don't understand the OT.
    What do you understand it to mean for Paul to do this:
    Act 21:23* Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;*
    Act 21:24* take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.

    Any ideas?

    Act 21:26* Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for each one of them.

    Note this also:
    Act 18:18* After this, Paul stayed many days longer and then took leave of the brothers and set sail for Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila. At Cenchreae he had cut his hair, for he was under a vow.

    Perhaps this might help you?
    Num 6:13* “And this is the law for the Nazirite, when the time of his separation has been completed: he shall be brought to the entrance of the tent of meeting,*
    Num 6:14* and he shall bring his gift to the LORD, one male lamb a year old without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb a year old without blemish as a sin offering, and one ram without blemish as a peace offering,*
    Num 6:15* and a basket of unleavened bread, loaves of fine flour mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers smeared with oil, and their grain offering and their drink offerings.*
    Num 6:16* And the priest shall bring them before the LORD and offer his sin offering and his burnt offering,*
    Num 6:17* and he shall offer the ram as a sacrifice of peace offering to the LORD, with the basket of unleavened bread. The priest shall offer also its grain offering and its drink offering.*
    Num 6:18* And the Nazirite shall shave his consecrated head at the entrance of the tent of meeting and shall take the hair from his consecrated head and put it on the fire that is under the sacrifice of the peace offering.*
    Num 6:19* And the priest shall take the shoulder of the ram, when it is boiled, and one unleavened loaf out of the basket and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them on the hands of the Nazirite, after he has shaved the hair of his consecration,*
    Num 6:20* and the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD. They are a holy portion for the priest, together with the breast that is waved and the thigh that is contributed.

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    God didn't continue abominations why would you say that as I didn't say anything like that? What I was saying is that God allowed it to happen for a time period as God is patient to save people.
    How is allowing the apostles to go and make sacrifices (which you have as abominations) somehow become a time period to save people.

    They are the same and different the difference is that God hasn't allowed it to happen again because sin sacrifices are needed no more.
    It has nothing to do with sin sacrifices, and everything to do with the people of Israel.

    So why hasn't the temple and sacrifices been reestablish?
    I expect it will be.

    When Jesus died He stated that it is finished Jesus fulfilled it all at the cross. We can have remorse now for sin and repent but no penance or price is required anymore.
    So you no longer bring a sacrifice of praise? You don;t take up your cross daily?
    Jesus fulfilled ALL that He planned to fulfill at the cross.
    This didn't include things like reigning on earth afterwards as a resurrected King.
    What is sacrifice meant to be? That is the heart of the question.

    I don't pin the temple and the law against Jesus I am saying that they are no longer required because of Jesus. That being said there would be no problem if the temple was built and used as our churches are today.
    OK, but what about how the Jews see it?

    Rev 11 says no such thing what verse are you referring too?
    Rev 11:1* Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,*
    Rev 11:2* but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.*
    Rev 11:3* And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

    Notice the temple and the two witnesses are in the same part of the vision.

    Rev 11:8* and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city
    Notice where their bodies will lie? Which city is this?

    I am trying to figure you out as it seams that you just like to argue. Now I know that you are not trying to anger people but try to teach them the truth but why do you just point out the things that you don't agree with and skip over the points that they say are correct?
    For example I pointed out that the disciples did not go to the temple with the same intent as the Christ rejecting Jews that were there that same day but you conveniently skipped over that point.
    I honestly mean this as a helpful hints but maybe not starting your post with the word "nope" might get you a better reaction to your poss too
    Missed that point.
    Actually I don't seek to judge the Jews who went to the temple at the same time as the disciples.
    I expect they went for the same reason they went the time before, and the time before that.
    As to the disciples I am pretty sure they went to worship God in that place, which would be the same reason the Jews were meant to be going.

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    I feel Marty is correct. From the death of Jesus until 70AD was a “grace period” allowed by God for every last Jew to come to faith and to know the long promised Messiah.
    So many did.
    Many did indeed come to know the Messiah.
    However that is irrelevant to the question of the temple.
    If sacrifices in the temple are now an abomination then at the least we would expect the disciples to no longer associate with the place and certainly not make offerings and sacrifices there.

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