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Thread: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

  1. #106
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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Will the Jews build a third temple? I don't know. Do they believe that there will be a third temple in the messianic era? As per passages throughout the prophets, especially Ezekiel, most definitely yes.

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Will the Jews build a third temple? I don't know. Do they believe that there will be a third temple in the messianic era? As per passages throughout the prophets, especially Ezekiel, most definitely yes.
    I think walls divide men from God--even good men. In the Messianic Era I believe men will no longer have to be separated from God by a number of cleansing rituals. God can dwell directly in our hearts, rather than in a symbol of His dwelling among us. There will no longer have to be a temple.

    I direct this to you because I do believe there have been different Jewish senses of a change in the Law of God in the Millennial era. While some things are unchangeable, other things are. Do you believe this?

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    So faith is works?
    Now you really are confusing me.
    Yes, this is a very big subject but yes, Faith and Works must work together, or the Faith is false Faith. As James said, "faith without works is dead." James 2.26. And James also said that Abraham proved his Faith by his Obedience (Works). James 2.21.

    A lot of Christians get this confused when reading Paul's argument for the importance of faith *before works* in Romans 4. It sounds like a contradiction of what James said. Even Martin Luther was confused about it, and ended up rejecting James.

    But Paul was not arguing against the inclusion of works in Faith. Rather, he was only arguing for the essential role that Faith plays in this, without which Works is dead. Paul argued that Works are dead without Faith. And James argued that Faith without Works is dead. There is no contradiction! You can either have dead Works or dead Faith. Both Faith and Works are required together! Faith may precede Works, but both are required.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Faith doesn't require works, rather works come out of genuine faith - as James notes.
    Now if you are saying that sacrifice was a response to the faith a person should have THEN you are getting what I am saying.
    Israel, under the law was required to live by faith and then perform certain works as specified in that law.
    No, Faith does in fact require Works. That's why James said that Faith without Deeds/Works is dead! Under the Law, Israel's Faith required obedience to the Law, ie to the temple law, to the law of the priesthood, and to the law of the sacrifices, along with all of the other dietary, festival, and purification laws--along with all of the common laws of moral living.

    But now, under the system of Grace, the works we must accomplish are different, but just as necessary. Our faith must be expressed in obedience to God's word to us, morally and spiritually. It is the same principle of Faith Plus Works in both covenants. The Protestants have a problem with this, but I as a Protestant do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    We who are not under the Law of Moses, do not have those specified works, YET exactly like them our faith has works following.

    You previously were arguing that sacrifices was what was needed according to the law, and thus faith was not part of it.
    False. I've *never* said that sacrifices under the Law took place without faith. Indeed, my argument is that faith required the production of works under the Law, including the offering of sacrifices.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    I think I understand what you are doing. You are claiming TWO different systems yet I am dealing with them as principles (which you may be meaning as concepts).
    Yes, I think that's right, if I understand you correctly. I view Law and Grace as eternal principles in God, whether in the Old Covenant or under the New Covenant. Law exists in today's system of Grace. Obedience to God's Word to us is still required.

    And Grace, as a concept, also existed under the Covenant of Mosaic Law. It clearly existed under the various forms of legal atonement that were provided.

    But I would differentiate Law and Grace as distinct *systems,* believing that the NT system supplants the OT system. The NT system of Grace essentially *replaced* the OT system of Mosaic Law.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    However in the NT the Law is not a concept of Christ's righteousness.
    The fulfillment of the requirements of the Law is through His sacrifice. Which means the New Covenant is simply the requirements of the Old met through Christ.
    This does NOT mean the requirements stop existing, but rather that for those IN Christ, they are dealt with.
    What Paul actually argues is that the Law itself is good and righteous and to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24).
    The Law is meant to be written on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:31) so that we don't need an external law such as that given by Moses.
    I think you're confusing the "imputation of righteousness" with the "imparted righteousness" of Christ. What is imputed to us for legal justification must also be imparted to us to have validity.

    Can you imagine being given freedom from a prison cell, and yet remaining in that cell? Can you imagine being given water in the desert and yet refusing to drink? What good is it to forgive men for doing wrong, and then not expect them to do right?

    The concept of Law was as valid under the old system as it is under the present system. We must do righteousness. We must obey God. We must accomplish works for God. Otherwise we are not true children. Genuine faith produces evidence of our inheritance in God.

    What sense is there in saying that righteousness has been placed in our heart and yet not require it to be demonstrated in deeds? The deeds are justified by the sinless works Christ did. But we are justified as saved by embracing Christ's own works as our own! This is a necessary demonstration of our Faith!

    We are legally justified before God by the death of His Son, because the righteousness of the Son is flawless and beyond condemnation. But we are justified as Christians by embracing Christ and by obeying him in our works.

    We must put on his righteousness and demonstrate it, to truly show we have Faith! If we don't show his righteousness, our Faith is not real, or is dead. We cannot then be justified because we don't have true Faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Some Christian theologians teach what you are saying is true.
    The Law of Moses was clearly shown NOT to be a thing for Gentiles (sorted in Acts 15 Council of Jerusalem and confirmed in Acts 21)
    Anyone who is IN Christ is no longer under the Law, but what you seem to struggle with, or simply ignore is that this statement is ONLY for those who are IN Christ.
    I don't ignore that--I just don't agree with what you're saying, that there is any valid system apart from the system that requires us to be *in Christ.* And I'm certainly not "struggling" with it!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Our works IS our fruit. What we do, how we live our lives, these are our works and are our fruit. We CANNOT simply do works regardless, that is legalism and is what the older son in the Prodigal Son parable was doing.
    Our works to NOT ever obtain value with respect to eternal life. Eternal life is a gift given by Jesus not based on any works, as Paul eloquently argued.
    Works is for rewards and is done in relation to our response to what Jesus has done for us.
    Works are a necessary part of our faith. They are part of the definition of Faith! To imply that Works and Faith can be separated is wrong. They must be one. Our justification requires true Faith. And true Faith must have Works.

    It is true that Works apart from Faith cannot justify. Faith is necessary to appropriate what only comes to us by the sinless Christ. Only he provides us Works with Atonement. All Works without him are worthless and cannot justify for eternity.

    All Works under the OT Law, if not done by faith in God's word, were also worthless in maintaining a practical relationship with God. Faith is a necessary component of works.

    Whether under the OT system or now, under the NT system, we must have faith to appropriate the sinless benefit of God's word. But in doing so our faith is proven genuine when we show genuine repentance. Otherwise our faith is proven to be false.

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I think walls divide men from God--even good men. In the Messianic Era I believe men will no longer have to be separated from God by a number of cleansing rituals. God can dwell directly in our hearts, rather than in a symbol of His dwelling among us. There will no longer have to be a temple.
    You think walls divide God from man. And yet in Ezekiel we are given the vision of a third, as of yet unbuilt temple. If my ideas run counter to the bible, then my ideas must be wrong.
    I direct this to you because I do believe there have been different Jewish senses of a change in the Law of God in the Millennial era. While some things are unchangeable, other things are. Do you believe this?
    I don't think the law will change at all. Nothing in the bible leads me to think otherwise.

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    You think walls divide God from man. And yet in Ezekiel we are given the vision of a third, as of yet unbuilt temple. If my ideas run counter to the bible, then my ideas must be wrong.
    I don't think the law will change at all. Nothing in the bible leads me to think otherwise.
    I agree with you almost 100%.
    However I don't think the temple seen in Ezekiel is meant to be built by men.
    I personally see it as a vision of the temple in Heaven, which will come down from heaven when Jesus returns. This is not seen in the OT, only through the NT. However you may have noted that nowhere is there an instruction to build this temple, it simply is something Ezekiel is shown as built.

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, this is a very big subject but yes, Faith and Works must work together, or the Faith is false Faith. As James said, "faith without works is dead." James 2.26. And James also said that Abraham proved his Faith by his Obedience (Works). James 2.21.
    A lot of Christians get this confused when reading Paul's argument for the importance of faith *before works* in Romans 4. It sounds like a contradiction of what James said. Even Martin Luther was confused about it, and ended up rejecting James.
    But Paul was not arguing against the inclusion of works in Faith. Rather, he was only arguing for the essential role that Faith plays in this, without which Works is dead. Paul argued that Works are dead without Faith. And James argued that Faith without Works is dead. There is no contradiction! You can either have dead Works or dead Faith. Both Faith and Works are required together! Faith may precede Works, but both are required.
    It isn't that Faith MAY precede works, but that Faith MUST precede works. All works done without Faith in the first place is dead. This is the point you have missed.
    Further Faith itself is NOT works, and some things of Faith CANNOT be done as a work, namely our acceptance of who God is, there is NO work associated with this.
    So what James is truly arguing is that the Faith we HAVE is seen in the works we do. These are the good works God has prepared beforehand for us.
    Because of my Faith in Jesus, so I will live accordingly. This is NOT tied to a SPECIFIC work.

    No, Faith does in fact require Works. That's why James said that Faith without Deeds/Works is dead! Under the Law, Israel's Faith required obedience to the Law, ie to the temple law, to the law of the priesthood, and to the law of the sacrifices, along with all of the other dietary, festival, and purification laws--along with all of the common laws of moral living.

    But now, under the system of Grace, the works we must accomplish are different, but just as necessary. Our faith must be expressed in obedience to God's word to us, morally and spiritually. It is the same principle of Faith Plus Works in both covenants. The Protestants have a problem with this, but I as a Protestant do not.
    Nope, as stated above, Faith does NOT REQUIRE works.
    The Bandit on the cross had faith in Jesus but did no works. Your argument is a bit like that of those who say we MUST be baptised in water.
    Now what you is stated is that Faith leads to works. We do according to our faith.
    Our works are the same in that they are a sacrifice of ourselves and what we have.
    You say under Grace it is different, but then say the EXACT same thing they required "Our faith must be expressed in obedience to God's word to us, morally and spiritually."
    So where is the difference?
    The difference is summed up in one Name - Jesus.

    False. I've *never* said that sacrifices under the Law took place without faith. Indeed, my argument is that faith required the production of works under the Law, including the offering of sacrifices.
    The complaint of God about the Israelis was that they made sacrifices without faith. This was a big fault of theirs.

    Yes, I think that's right, if I understand you correctly. I view Law and Grace as eternal principles in God, whether in the Old Covenant or under the New Covenant. Law exists in today's system of Grace. Obedience to God's Word to us is still required.
    And Grace, as a concept, also existed under the Covenant of Mosaic Law. It clearly existed under the various forms of legal atonement that were provided.
    But I would differentiate Law and Grace as distinct *systems,* believing that the NT system supplants the OT system. The NT system of Grace essentially *replaced* the OT system of Mosaic Law.
    The Law of Moses is SPECIFICALLY for the Jew, so this means it MUST be distinct from that which is for the Gentile.

    I think you're confusing the "imputation of righteousness" with the "imparted righteousness" of Christ. What is imputed to us for legal justification must also be imparted to us to have validity.
    Can you imagine being given freedom from a prison cell, and yet remaining in that cell? Can you imagine being given water in the desert and yet refusing to drink? What good is it to forgive men for doing wrong, and then not expect them to do right?
    The concept of Law was as valid under the old system as it is under the present system. We must do righteousness. We must obey God. We must accomplish works for God. Otherwise we are not true children. Genuine faith produces evidence of our inheritance in God.
    What sense is there in saying that righteousness has been placed in our heart and yet not require it to be demonstrated in deeds? The deeds are justified by the sinless works Christ did. But we are justified as saved by embracing Christ's own works as our own! This is a necessary demonstration of our Faith!
    We are legally justified before God by the death of His Son, because the righteousness of the Son is flawless and beyond condemnation. But we are justified as Christians by embracing Christ and by obeying him in our works.
    We must put on his righteousness and demonstrate it, to truly show we have Faith! If we don't show his righteousness, our Faith is not real, or is dead. We cannot then be justified because we don't have true Faith.
    We are NEVER justified by our works. Are works show that we are justified. You continue to want to put them in the wrong order.
    We love BECAUSE God loves us, not that we love in order that God loves us.
    We put on His righteousness, which then leads us to demonstrate it.
    However the justification is ALWAYS because of His righteousness and not whatever works we do. What we realise is that the degree we are allowing Him to be Lord over our lives is seen in the lives we live.

    I don't ignore that--I just don't agree with what you're saying, that there is any valid system apart from the system that requires us to be *in Christ.* And I'm certainly not "struggling" with it!
    Everyone SHOULD be in Christ. I am stating that clearly everyone is NOT in Christ. I find it bizarre that you would consider this as not being the truth.
    Now therefore those who are IN Christ are in His Grace and live His way.
    However everyone who is NOT in Christ is NOT in His Grace and are NOT living in His way.
    Therefore there is a REALITY for those who are Jews who are NOT in Christ remain under the Law as Paul noted they were.
    Further there is a REALITY for the Gentile who is NOT in Christ who will be judged according to the Law as clarified in Romans 2.

    Works are a necessary part of our faith. They are part of the definition of Faith! To imply that Works and Faith can be separated is wrong. They must be one. Our justification requires true Faith. And true Faith must have Works.
    Nope, faith does NOT require works. They are TWO separate ideas. Faith is shown and demonstrated through works, whatever those works may be. If they are hay or wood then we find one thing, but if gold another:
    1Co 3:12* Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—*
    1Co 3:13* each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.*
    1Co 3:14* If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.*
    1Co 3:15* If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

    It is true that Works apart from Faith cannot justify. Faith is necessary to appropriate what only comes to us by the sinless Christ. Only he provides us Works with Atonement. All Works without him are worthless and cannot justify for eternity.
    All Works under the OT Law, if not done by faith in God's word, were also worthless in maintaining a practical relationship with God. Faith is a necessary component of works.
    Whether under the OT system or now, under the NT system, we must have faith to appropriate the sinless benefit of God's word. But in doing so our faith is proven genuine when we show genuine repentance. Otherwise our faith is proven to be false.
    Something we can agree on.

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It isn't that Faith MAY precede works, but that Faith MUST precede works. All works done without Faith in the first place is dead. This is the point you have missed.
    I clearly have not missed this, since I already said it! I already said, quite plainly, that Faith cannot be without Works, and Works cannot be without Faith!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Further Faith itself is NOT works, and some things of Faith CANNOT be done as a work, namely our acceptance of who God is, there is NO work associated with this.
    So what James is truly arguing is that the Faith we HAVE is seen in the works we do. These are the good works God has prepared beforehand for us.
    Because of my Faith in Jesus, so I will live accordingly. This is NOT tied to a SPECIFIC work.
    I disagree because as I said, James indicated that Faith *requires Works!* Either this is true or it is not. You may very well say that Faith *precedes* Works, but this doesn't change the fact: Faith *requires* Works! You cannot say you have Faith unless it manifests itself as Works! It's like saying you have a deep well, but your well has no water in it!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Nope, as stated above, Faith does NOT REQUIRE works.
    Sorry, you're wrong.
    James 2.26 faith without deeds is dead.

    I'm going to accept what the Bible says.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    The Bandit on the cross had faith in Jesus but did no works. Your argument is a bit like that of those who say we MUST be baptised in water.
    Now you're talking about *ceremonial works,* and not Faith Works! Jesus said that even believing in him was a Faith Work!

    John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

    Generally, the Works of Faith are obedience to God's word to us. It is obedience to whatever it is that God specifically tells us to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Now what you is stated is that Faith leads to works. We do according to our faith.
    No, our response to God's word to our hearts is obedience, which it itself a work. When we obey we are exercising faith. Faith and Works, in this respect, are simultaneous. But certainly, Works may follow Faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Our works are the same in that they are a sacrifice of ourselves and what we have.
    You say under Grace it is different, but then say the EXACT same thing they required "Our faith must be expressed in obedience to God's word to us, morally and spiritually."
    So where is the difference?
    The difference is summed up in one Name - Jesus.
    Difference between what? If we are talking about the difference between Grace and Law as systems, the difference is what God required in each system. Under the Law of Moses God required obedience to approx. 613 laws. Under the Law of Christ God requires obedience to 2 laws, generally. But as you know, when we live under Christ's lordship, we are subject to the guidance of God in many and varied ways. Whatever God wants us to do, we need to do it.

    As I said, the concepts of Grace and Law are in both OT and NT systems. Grace was active in the sacrifices for sin under the Law. And Law is active in the NT system of Grace, by the requirements that Christ has for us.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    The complaint of God about the Israelis was that they made sacrifices without faith. This was a big fault of theirs.
    We do not disagree on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    The Law of Moses is SPECIFICALLY for the Jew, so this means it MUST be distinct from that which is for the Gentile.
    We do not disagree on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    We are NEVER justified by our works. Are works show that we are justified. You continue to want to put them in the wrong order.
    No, I'm speaking of two distinct kinds of justification. God justifies us as sinners by providing His own sin-free righteousness to us as a free gift, forgiving our failures. We are justified before God simply by embracing, by faith, this righteousness that He gives to us. But for it to be genuine faith we must not just accept the gift of righteousness, but we must also demonstrate it in our lives. True Faith *requires* Works!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    We love BECAUSE God loves us, not that we love in order that God loves us.
    I never said otherwise. But it is another thing entirely to say that we can be accepted by God without the Works of Faith! One of the Works of Faith is to believe in God's Son. Unless we do so we will not be accepted.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    We put on His righteousness, which then leads us to demonstrate it.
    However the justification is ALWAYS because of His righteousness and not whatever works we do. What we realise is that the degree we are allowing Him to be Lord over our lives is seen in the lives we live.
    Obviously, we cannot demonstrate the Works of Faith unless we first receive them from Christ! We are not earning them, but simply demonstrating them. They are, however, required, if God is to accept us. He is not going to accept us unless we receive His gift, and then demonstrate it. Unless we demonstrate it, we haven't really received it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Everyone SHOULD be in Christ. I am stating that clearly everyone is NOT in Christ. I find it bizarre that you would consider this as not being the truth.
    Who said that isn't the truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Now therefore those who are IN Christ are in His Grace and live His way.
    However everyone who is NOT in Christ is NOT in His Grace and are NOT living in His way.
    We all know there are Christians and nonChristians.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Therefore there is a REALITY for those who are Jews who are NOT in Christ remain under the Law as Paul noted they were.
    Further there is a REALITY for the Gentile who is NOT in Christ who will be judged according to the Law as clarified in Romans 2.
    This is non sequitur. It does not follow that because there are nonChristian Jews they must be under the Law! The Law, to be in place, must still be in effect, and it is not. The Jews may try to follow it, but it is no longer a sanctioned system. It would be like following Mormonism. Mormons may follow that system, but it is not recognized by God.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Nope, faith does NOT require works. They are TWO separate ideas. Faith is shown and demonstrated through works, whatever those works may be. If they are hay or wood then we find one thing, but if gold another:
    1Co 3:12* Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—*
    1Co 3:13* each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.*
    1Co 3:14* If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.*
    1Co 3:15* If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

    Something we can agree on.
    We need to agree on more things, brother. Hopefully we will get there....

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I agree with you almost 100%.
    However I don't think the temple seen in Ezekiel is meant to be built by men.
    It may not be. God could build it too.

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I clearly have not missed this, since I already said it! I already said, quite plainly, that Faith cannot be without Works, and Works cannot be without Faith!!
    Not what I am saying. I am saying Faith MUST come FIRST. It has the pre-eminent place.

    I disagree because as I said, James indicated that Faith *requires Works!* Either this is true or it is not. You may very well say that Faith *precedes* Works, but this doesn't change the fact: Faith *requires* Works! You cannot say you have Faith unless it manifests itself as Works! It's like saying you have a deep well, but your well has no water in it!
    I know you disagree, and you are wrong to do so. James is NOT saying what you are claiming. You CAN say that you have FAITH even though it does NOT manifest in any WORK.
    James did NOT indicate Faith REQUIRES works, rather he said, that the Faith you have is SEEN in the works that you do. Faith which has no fruit is useless, as God's plan is that we be fruitful, but our own life is the first fruit and not to be sneered at or discounted.
    In your example, the deep well is the work, but faith is the water.

    Sorry, you're wrong.
    James 2.26 faith without deeds is dead.
    I'm going to accept what the Bible says.
    You mean you will ignore the CONTEXT of what is stated?
    There are numerous examples given within James 2, and it shows that the works are ALWAYS in response to the faith.

    Now you're talking about *ceremonial works,* and not Faith Works! Jesus said that even believing in him was a Faith Work!
    John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
    Generally, the Works of Faith are obedience to God's word to us. It is obedience to whatever it is that God specifically tells us to do.
    Nope, Jesus said this was the work of God, not the work of the man.
    There is no such thing as ceremonial works. This is a man-made idea. The Bandit on the cross did NOT do a SINGLE work, he only spoke, which James 2:16 shows is not a work. However he had faith and God saved him.

    No, our response to God's word to our hearts is obedience, which it itself a work. When we obey we are exercising faith. Faith and Works, in this respect, are simultaneous. But certainly, Works may follow Faith.
    Obedience is NOT a work, except you do a work to show your obedience. When we obey we are doing a work, which is an outcome of our faith. They are not simultaneous but ALWAYS in order.
    Faith brings us to obedient works.
    It is NOT that works may follow faith, but that works can never precede faith. The closest to that idea is when the man cried to Jesus "I believe, help my unbelief".
    Works SHOULD follow faith, and I think on this we agree.

    Difference between what? If we are talking about the difference between Grace and Law as systems, the difference is what God required in each system. Under the Law of Moses God required obedience to approx. 613 laws. Under the Law of Christ God requires obedience to 2 laws, generally. But as you know, when we live under Christ's lordship, we are subject to the guidance of God in many and varied ways. Whatever God wants us to do, we need to do it.

    As I said, the concepts of Grace and Law are in both OT and NT systems. Grace was active in the sacrifices for sin under the Law. And Law is active in the NT system of Grace, by the requirements that Christ has for us.
    I always find it funny when people trot out the 613 laws idea.
    In the US there are over 20,000 laws on the ownership and use of guns.
    From 2000 to 2007 Congress created 452 new crimes according to the Laws they passed. federal crimes have now passed 4,450.
    Article here.

    Do you keep all 20,000 laws?
    The Law of Christ which you speak about IS the summation of the Law of Moses. These are NOT new concepts, but the very ones found in the OT.

    We do not disagree on this.
    We do not disagree on this.
    Agreement twice over!

    No, I'm speaking of two distinct kinds of justification. God justifies us as sinners by providing His own sin-free righteousness to us as a free gift, forgiving our failures. We are justified before God simply by embracing, by faith, this righteousness that He gives to us. But for it to be genuine faith we must not just accept the gift of righteousness, but we must also demonstrate it in our lives. True Faith *requires* Works!
    There are NOT two kinds of justification. Only one. We are NEVER justified by our works.
    What works show is whether our faith is being lived out in our lives. We are called to walk in the light and not darkness.

    I never said otherwise. But it is another thing entirely to say that we can be accepted by God without the Works of Faith! One of the Works of Faith is to believe in God's Son. Unless we do so we will not be accepted.
    Nope, that is NOT a work as Paul clearly argued. Jesus stated that was a work of God, not of Man.

    Obviously, we cannot demonstrate the Works of Faith unless we first receive them from Christ! We are not earning them, but simply demonstrating them. They are, however, required, if God is to accept us. He is not going to accept us unless we receive His gift, and then demonstrate it. Unless we demonstrate it, we haven't really received it.
    Nope, you need to read the parable of the 10 minas in Luke 19:11 - 27.
    The servant is NOT an enemy of God, the one who didn't use what he was given lost out but was not executed like the enemies.

    Who said that isn't the truth?
    You in your claim that there isn't a separate situation for those who are not in Christ.

    We all know there are Christians and nonChristians.
    However you don;t seem to appreciate the situation is different for each.

    This is non sequitur. It does not follow that because there are nonChristian Jews they must be under the Law! The Law, to be in place, must still be in effect, and it is not. The Jews may try to follow it, but it is no longer a sanctioned system. It would be like following Mormonism. Mormons may follow that system, but it is not recognized by God.
    The Law is STILL in effect. It was in the time of Paul AFTER Jesus had died, and rose again, and ascended to heaven. The Jew REMAINED under the Law, and that has NOT changed. Romans spells it out quite clearly.
    When did the Law stop being in effect? Are you going to claim 70 AD? I will say rubbish to that. When the temple was destroyed in 586 BC was the Law still in effect? Of course it was. When A4E despoiled the temple in 168 BC was the Law STILL in effect? Of course it was.
    Who are you to declare a system is sanctioned or not? If the Jews were under the Law in 60 AD, then by what mechanism have they been released from that Law?
    There is ONLY ONE mechanism to release them from that Law, and that is Jesus.
    It is NOTHING like following Mormonism.

    Also note that the Gentile is one without the Law, but will still be judged as stated in Romans 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    It may not be. God could build it too.
    That is what I am expecting (except I think He has already built it ready for when He will bring it to Jerusalem - the New Jerusalem found in Isaiah 65.)

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Not what I am saying. I am saying Faith MUST come FIRST. It has the pre-eminent place.
    And I'm saying they *both* have an equally-preeminent place, because unless Works are present, you don't have Faith! You are defining Works in a Protestant way, as Works without Faith. And I'm defining Works in a biblical way, as James defined them. Without Works you don't have real Faith, according to James. That is Bible!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    I know you disagree, and you are wrong to do so. James is NOT saying what you are claiming. You CAN say that you have FAITH even though it does NOT manifest in any WORK.
    False. In case you miss it, James says it twice:

    James 2.17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.... 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


    If you have Faith 1st, without Works, then it isn't true Faith at all. But if you have Faith with Works, then it is true Faith, and Works will follow. And that's because just the act of *believing* is a Work. You can't have Faith without believing. But the object of our Faith, in order to be a genuine Work, must be directed towards Christ. That is where our will comes in, which then makes it a Work.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    James did NOT indicate Faith REQUIRES works, rather he said, that the Faith you have is SEEN in the works that you do. Faith which has no fruit is useless, as God's plan is that we be fruitful, but our own life is the first fruit and not to be sneered at or discounted.
    In your example, the deep well is the work, but faith is the water.

    You mean you will ignore the CONTEXT of what is stated?
    There are numerous examples given within James 2, and it shows that the works are ALWAYS in response to the faith.
    Nope, Jesus said this was the work of God, not the work of the man.
    That's patently absurd! Jesus is telling Man what God *requires of Man!* God is telling Man what Work Man needs to do! Do you really think God is just talking about what He Himself must do as God?
    It is not God who must believe, but Man! This Work is what God requires of Man--not of Himself!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    There is no such thing as ceremonial works. This is a man-made idea. The Bandit on the cross did NOT do a SINGLE work, he only spoke, which James 2:16 shows is not a work. However he had faith and God saved him.
    You have major, major problems with semantics! The ceremonial works I speak of has to do with what Men *illegitimately* do to serve God. Paul condemned believing Jews who continued to teach and practice the Law of Moses. To Paul they were *ceremonial laws* no longer applicable to anyone.

    Col 2.6 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Obedience is NOT a work, except you do a work to show your obedience. When we obey we are doing a work, which is an outcome of our faith. They are not simultaneous but ALWAYS in order.
    You are using a different application of the word "Work!" This has nothing to do with what James was talking about when he said Faith, to be genuine, must have Works.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Faith brings us to obedient works.
    It is NOT that works may follow faith, but that works can never precede faith. The closest to that idea is when the man cried to Jesus "I believe, help my unbelief".
    Works SHOULD follow faith, and I think on this we agree.
    Yes, finally we agree on something. Faith can never be without Works. Works cannot follow Faith, nor can Faith precede Works. Faith and Works are defined as one, according to James. Works may follow Faith only if the Works that follow themselves contain Faith.

    I know I'm being critical of your method of disagreement, but I do feel this is an important issue. Catholics and Protestants have had trouble for years, and in fact, centuries, due to this problem defining Faith, and determining the difference between Faith and Works. I've worked out my own definition, which I've been sharing with you and with others.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    I always find it funny when people trot out the 613 laws idea.
    In the US there are over 20,000 laws on the ownership and use of guns.
    From 2000 to 2007 Congress created 452 new crimes according to the Laws they passed. federal crimes have now passed 4,450.
    Article here.
    And this is relevant why? I don't mention 613 laws to make a big deal out of the large number. I do so only to point out that it was a different system, a different covenant. It bears no relation to the New Covenant, which simply did not require them. The New Covenant required the same God, the same morality, and the same principles of righteousness. But the specific laws required were very, very different, and this is my only point.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Do you keep all 20,000 laws?
    The Law of Christ which you speak about IS the summation of the Law of Moses. These are NOT new concepts, but the very ones found in the OT.
    The comparison of the OT Law with the NT fulfillment is a subject all to itself. No time to deal with that here. But yes, they are obviously related, as the fulfillment relates to the prediction.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Agreement twice over!
    The happier you get, the more hopeful I get! The angels may be taking bets on whether we can agree or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    There are NOT two kinds of justification. Only one. We are NEVER justified by our works.
    What works show is whether our faith is being lived out in our lives. We are called to walk in the light and not darkness.
    Once again, this is a matter of semantics. We are not justified by Works in the sense that our flawed works have legally earned our salvation. But we are justified in meriting salvation in the sense that we meet the qualifications of a sinner for applying Christ's righteousness to ourselves. In doing the Works of Christ we are indeed justified before God.

    Rom 10.10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Nope, that is NOT a work as Paul clearly argued. Jesus stated that was a work of God, not of Man.

    Nope, you need to read the parable of the 10 minas in Luke 19:11 - 27.
    The servant is NOT an enemy of God, the one who didn't use what he was given lost out but was not executed like the enemies.

    You in your claim that there isn't a separate situation for those who are not in Christ.


    However you don;t seem to appreciate the situation is different for each.


    The Law is STILL in effect. It was in the time of Paul AFTER Jesus had died, and rose again, and ascended to heaven. The Jew REMAINED under the Law, and that has NOT changed. Romans spells it out quite clearly.
    When did the Law stop being in effect? Are you going to claim 70 AD? I will say rubbish to that. When the temple was destroyed in 586 BC was the Law still in effect? Of course it was. When A4E despoiled the temple in 168 BC was the Law STILL in effect? Of course it was.
    Who are you to declare a system is sanctioned or not? If the Jews were under the Law in 60 AD, then by what mechanism have they been released from that Law?
    There is ONLY ONE mechanism to release them from that Law, and that is Jesus.
    It is NOTHING like following Mormonism.

    Also note that the Gentile is one without the Law, but will still be judged as stated in Romans 2.

    That is what I am expecting (except I think He has already built it ready for when He will bring it to Jerusalem - the New Jerusalem found in Isaiah 65.)
    The Law is not in effect any longer. Israel completely failed when Jesus was rejected and crucified. Jesus died for those who had completely broken the Law. This was inevitable since the Garden, when Man was prohibited from eating of the Tree of Life after having sinned.

    The fact men still adopt a system they call "the Law" does not mean it is any longer an active Covenant. It is not!

    The temple remained for 40 years after Christ died. That does not mean it remained in effect--it was only being used by men ignorant of the fact it no longer qualified as a Covenant system in God's mind.

    And so, the temple superstructure remained for awhile longer, as the book of Hebrews indicates (8.13). None of this means that Jewish observance had any value as an accepted form of worship. Perhaps there was some value in the sense that Jews may have from the heart worshiped God. But the value of animal sacrifices was not there, since Christ had superseded all animal sacrifices as the final sacrifice for sin.

    So yes, Rabbinic Judaism was no better than Mormonism as a religion. Expressing worship through the Law of Moses became meaningless at the Cross. All that matters to God today is that we accept His Son, and the righteousness he stands for. None of this requires the foreshadows that anticipated his coming.

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    And I'm saying they *both* have an equally-preeminent place, because unless Works are present, you don't have Faith! You are defining Works in a Protestant way, as Works without Faith. And I'm defining Works in a biblical way, as James defined them. Without Works you don't have real Faith, according to James. That is Bible!
    And this is why I disagree with you. James was NOT arguing for an equally pre-eminent place. he was saying that faith which does not lead to works based upon that faith is an empty worthless faith.
    I am defining works and faith in a biblical way, though I am surprised you think that protestants don't believe works are important. I would argue the opposite. They often argue so hard for works, that they forget faith altogether.

    Genesis 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
    Notice NO WORKS involved. God made a statement and Abram believed God, and God counted this as righteousness.

    Faith is ALWAYS the first and the PRE-EMINENT place. Our faith LEADS to works, as and when relevant, but it is NOT reliant on our works.

    False. In case you miss it, James says it twice:
    James 2.17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.... 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

    If you have Faith 1st, without Works, then it isn't true Faith at all. But if you have Faith with Works, then it is true Faith, and Works will follow. And that's because just the act of *believing* is a Work. You can't have Faith without believing. But the object of our Faith, in order to be a genuine Work, must be directed towards Christ. That is where our will comes in, which then makes it a Work.
    Not false at all. I see you don't understand the CONTEXT and the argument that James is making.
    He is saying to claim faith, and speak of a faith, but not to live by that faith in works means you have no faith, it is dead.

    That's patently absurd! Jesus is telling Man what God *requires of Man!* God is telling Man what Work Man needs to do! Do you really think God is just talking about what He Himself must do as God?
    It is not God who must believe, but Man! This Work is what God requires of Man--not of Himself!
    I simple note what Jesus stated - it is a work of God that we have faith. Everything is initiated by God. I do NOT have faith because of myself, but because God works it in me. It is NOT patently absurd but the words of Jesus. read it again and get it right!

    You have major, major problems with semantics! The ceremonial works I speak of has to do with what Men *illegitimately* do to serve God. Paul condemned believing Jews who continued to teach and practice the Law of Moses. To Paul they were *ceremonial laws* no longer applicable to anyone.
    Col 2.6 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
    I have no problems with semantics, though you like to bring it up every time I query what you claim.
    A work which is not of God is then not of relevance, and so why you brought it up is a bit strange.
    The Bandit on the cross did not do any ceremonial work, so why you mentioned this is just....

    You are using a different application of the word "Work!" This has nothing to do with what James was talking about when he said Faith, to be genuine, must have Works.
    huh? Now who is trying to use semantics. I am using the word EXACTLY as James does.

    Yes, finally we agree on something. Faith can never be without Works. Works cannot follow Faith, nor can Faith precede Works. Faith and Works are defined as one, according to James. Works may follow Faith only if the Works that follow themselves contain Faith.

    I know I'm being critical of your method of disagreement, but I do feel this is an important issue. Catholics and Protestants have had trouble for years, and in fact, centuries, due to this problem defining Faith, and determining the difference between Faith and Works. I've worked out my own definition, which I've been sharing with you and with others.
    Works cannot follow faith??? Works can ONLY follow faith, if it precedes it then it is NOT a work of God. Faith and works are NOT defined as one by James. James states unequivocally that faith is seen in the works one does, IOW what work you do shows what kind of faith you have.
    Works itself does NOT contain faith.
    You are really making up your own definitions.

    And this is relevant why? I don't mention 613 laws to make a big deal out of the large number. I do so only to point out that it was a different system, a different covenant. It bears no relation to the New Covenant, which simply did not require them. The New Covenant required the same God, the same morality, and the same principles of righteousness. But the specific laws required were very, very different, and this is my only point.
    I highlighted it as you seem to place some kind of value in their being 613 laws. Those laws which fit the principle of loving God and loving your neighbour.

    Once again, this is a matter of semantics. We are not justified by Works in the sense that our flawed works have legally earned our salvation. But we are justified in meriting salvation in the sense that we meet the qualifications of a sinner for applying Christ's righteousness to ourselves. In doing the Works of Christ we are indeed justified before God.

    Rom 10.10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
    No, I think it is more than semantics. We are NEVER justified before God according to works. We are justified before God by KNOWING Christ.
    It is BECAUSE we KNOW Christ that we then do works in accordance with that knowledge.

    The Law is not in effect any longer. Israel completely failed when Jesus was rejected and crucified. Jesus died for those who had completely broken the Law. This was inevitable since the Garden, when Man was prohibited from eating of the Tree of Life after having sinned.
    The fact men still adopt a system they call "the Law" does not mean it is any longer an active Covenant. It is not!
    The temple remained for 40 years after Christ died. That does not mean it remained in effect--it was only being used by men ignorant of the fact it no longer qualified as a Covenant system in God's mind.
    And so, the temple superstructure remained for awhile longer, as the book of Hebrews indicates (8.13). None of this means that Jewish observance had any value as an accepted form of worship. Perhaps there was some value in the sense that Jews may have from the heart worshiped God. But the value of animal sacrifices was not there, since Christ had superseded all animal sacrifices as the final sacrifice for sin.
    So yes, Rabbinic Judaism was no better than Mormonism as a religion. Expressing worship through the Law of Moses became meaningless at the Cross. All that matters to God today is that we accept His Son, and the righteousness he stands for. None of this requires the foreshadows that anticipated his coming.
    I notice you make claims without ANY recourse to scripture to support your view, and IGNORE that Paul has stated UNEQUIVOCALLY that they are UNDER the Law. So when did they STOP being under the Law? Was it when Paul died? What does scripture say? Not once does scripture say they stop being under the Law. There is ONLY ONE way for them to no longer be under the Law and that is to be IN Christ. This was part of the Gospel Paul desperately wanted them to get and so be free of the bondage of being under the Law.

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    And this is why I disagree with you. James was NOT arguing for an equally pre-eminent place. he was saying that faith which does not lead to works based upon that faith is an empty worthless faith.
    I am defining works and faith in a biblical way, though I am surprised you think that protestants don't believe works are important. I would argue the opposite. They often argue so hard for works, that they forget faith altogether.
    I'm a Protestant myself, and do not agree with the vocabulary associated with differentiating Faith and Works. On the other hand, I am well aware that Protestants also believe that Works follow Faith as a "fruit."

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Genesis 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
    Notice NO WORKS involved. God made a statement and Abram believed God, and God counted this as righteousness.
    As I said, belief itself is a Work when it is focused on Christ. The reference to Works Paul was talking about, when referring to Gen 15.6, had to do with justification. And this was not in the sense of justifying one's Christianity, but rather, in the sense of atoning for sin. Abram could never have paid that price, nor could anybody else, other than Jesus. But I'll have to get back with you...

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Faith is ALWAYS the first and the PRE-EMINENT place. Our faith LEADS to works, as and when relevant, but it is NOT reliant on our works.
    Continuing now... As I said, Gen 15.6 and Rom 4.3 were speaking of justification for eternity, which is something that only God can do. Only God can forgive our sins. Nothing we can do can remove the taint of our sin nature.

    But to claim that Faith does not require Works, or precedes Works, is just plain false. True faith *must* have Works. As I said, faith itself is a Work when it is focused on Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Not false at all. I see you don't understand the CONTEXT and the argument that James is making.
    He is saying to claim faith, and speak of a faith, but not to live by that faith in works means you have no faith, it is dead.
    That's not a failure on my part to understand. That's exactly what the passage is saying! And it is exactly what I've been saying! Faith requires Works. Otherwise, it is dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    I simple note what Jesus stated - it is a work of God that we have faith. Everything is initiated by God. I do NOT have faith because of myself, but because God works it in me. It is NOT patently absurd but the words of Jesus. read it again and get it right!
    It is you who are getting it wrong. You were saying that because it is a Work of God it is therefore not a Work of Man. But the whole point Jesus was making was that this Work of God was meant to become a Work of Man. You add nothing by saying it originates with God--nobody is arguing against that. The point is that this Work of God must become a Work of Man!

    John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

    By saying it is a "work of God" does not exclude it from becoming a work of Man. The whole point Jesus was making was that faith, as a Work, must become the Work of Man. It may begin with God, but it must come to belong to Man. Faith does not precede the Work--Faith *is* the Work!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    I have no problems with semantics, though you like to bring it up every time I query what you claim.
    A work which is not of God is then not of relevance, and so why you brought it up is a bit strange.
    The Bandit on the cross did not do any ceremonial work, so why you mentioned this is just....
    You will have to revisit this yourself. You do change the meaning of words as I apply them. You argue against my position using your own meaning of those same words.

    I intend to expose this every time you do this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    huh? Now who is trying to use semantics. I am using the word EXACTLY as James does.
    I'm suggesting that Works can be applied in a number of ways, biblically.
    1) as Christ's Works in justifying us for eternity,
    2) as godly Works that are the product of our Faith,
    3) or as an artificial application of Works apart from faith.

    When James is talking about Works he is defining true Faith, indicating that to be genuine it must have Works. This is not Christ's Work of atonement, but rather the Work of righteousness that God requires of Man.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Works cannot follow faith??? Works can ONLY follow faith, if it precedes it then it is NOT a work of God. Faith and works are NOT defined as one by James. James states unequivocally that faith is seen in the works one does, IOW what work you do shows what kind of faith you have.
    Works itself does NOT contain faith.
    You are really making up your own definitions.
    No, this is how James defines Faith, as necessarily including Works. You are falsely accusing me. I'm not making this up at all. This is really what James said!

    I was not saying that Works cannot follow Faith if they are Works of Faith. I'm only saying that Works cannot follow Faith if the initial Faith does not qualify as genuine Faith. And if the Works that follow do not contain Faith they are not genuine Works either.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    I highlighted it as you seem to place some kind of value in their being 613 laws. Those laws which fit the principle of loving God and loving your neighbour.

    No, I think it is more than semantics. We are NEVER justified before God according to works. We are justified before God by KNOWING Christ.
    It is BECAUSE we KNOW Christ that we then do works in accordance with that knowledge.
    Again, I think this is a semantics thing, because I would agree that we are not justified *for eternity* by doing good Works. We are only justified as really having Faith when our Works are the Works of Faith.

    Only Christ could atone for our sins for all eternity. That alone was Christ's Work. We could never do that. We could never atone for our own sins. No matter how much good we did, it could never atone for our sins. The sentence was death, pure and simple.

    But to have genuine faith, and to thus qualify for salvation, we must demonstrate that it is true Faith. It *must* have Works! That's what James said, and I'll stand by that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    I notice you make claims without ANY recourse to scripture to support your view, and IGNORE that Paul has stated UNEQUIVOCALLY that they are UNDER the Law.
    What you do is misinterpret the Scriptures you quote! What good is it for you to quote Scripture if you don't interpret it properly? Paul said unequivocally that nobody is justified by the Law. Therefore, he stated categorically that *nobody* is under the Law any longer! Since Christ came and provided eternal atonement for our sins it would be absurd for God to require Israel to continue offering animal sacrifices for their sins! This was just a temporary atonement, until Christ came and made atonement permanent.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    So when did they STOP being under the Law? Was it when Paul died? What does scripture say? Not once does scripture say they stop being under the Law. There is ONLY ONE way for them to no longer be under the Law and that is to be IN Christ. This was part of the Gospel Paul desperately wanted them to get and so be free of the bondage of being under the Law.
    Yes, Christ is the only Way, Truth, and Life. There is no other way, and that includes the way of the Law.

    Gal 3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Continuing now... As I said, Gen 15.6 and Rom 4.3 were speaking of justification for eternity, which is something that only God can do. Only God can forgive our sins. Nothing we can do can remove the taint of our sin nature.
    But to claim that Faith does not require Works, or precedes Works, is just plain false. True faith *must* have Works. As I said, faith itself is a Work when it is focused on Christ.
    Faith is ENTIRELY about our relationship with God, and is what gives us our justification.
    Works is ONLY a result of that relationship and is NEVER what justifies us.
    Faith is NOT a work EVER.
    It is as simple as that.

    The issue with Catholics is three fold:
    1) You must be part of the Catholic church to be saved. This has supposedly been relaxed, but it is still the actual church doctrine.
    2) They teach that works is equal to faith
    3) That you can lose justification through a mortal sin

    You are arguing that the Catholics are right on point two. They aren't and making reference to James will not prove your point as James is speaking of the outworking of our faith in our lives. He stated FAITH without works is dead, meaning that the START is FAITH. You have FAITH then you will have works which matches that faith.

    Why you are arguing this in a discussion about the 3rd Temple being built is a bit strange. So I think I will leave it at that.

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Faith is ENTIRELY about our relationship with God, and is what gives us our justification.
    Works is ONLY a result of that relationship and is NEVER what justifies us.
    Faith is NOT a work EVER.
    It is as simple as that.
    Must I quote James again? James said that to be genuine Faith it *must* include Deeds, or Works! When you refer to Justification you are confusing Christian Works with Christ's Work of atoning for our sins! I'm not referring to Justification in that sense. I'm only talking about qualifying Faith as genuine Faith! To be genuine Faith it *must* have Works! That's what James is saying! I think you are bringing up the Justification part?

    Why do you ignore this? I've quoted it to you repeatedly, and I don't really care to repeat it anymore. If you have no answers, then just quit arguing your points. Unless you address this, your arguments fall flat.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    The issue with Catholics is three fold:
    1) You must be part of the Catholic church to be saved. This has supposedly been relaxed, but it is still the actual church doctrine.
    2) They teach that works is equal to faith
    3) That you can lose justification through a mortal sin

    You are arguing that the Catholics are right on point two. They aren't and making reference to James will not prove your point as James is speaking of the outworking of our faith in our lives. He stated FAITH without works is dead, meaning that the START is FAITH. You have FAITH then you will have works which matches that faith.
    No, James is saying that without Works *up front,* there is no true Faith at all. Without works you just don't have faith. That is what James said. Initial Faith in Christ, or an initial confession of Christ's word to our heart, *is* in fact our initial Work in Christ.

    Catholics say it right, but they don't mean it right. They aren't defining *what works* are required to be "works of Faith." And that is critical.

    If Catholics add belief in Catholic traditions, and participating in Catholic rituals, as part of the "works of faith," then they are adding works that are *not* of Faith! Even doing good deeds without Christ in their heart are not "works of Faith."

    True "works of Faith" are the product of Christ's word to their heart, and to be a true Work the response of Faith must be acceptance of that word.

    This is the "human" part of the "Work." We choose to embrace the word of Christ to our heart, which becomes our first Christian Work!

    Thereafter, when Christ comes into our heart, through the Spirit, we are able to do good works *through Christ.* So Works can indeed follow an initial commitment of faith to the word of Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Why you are arguing this in a discussion about the 3rd Temple being built is a bit strange. So I think I will leave it at that.
    As you wish....

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