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Thread: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

  1. #121
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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Must I quote James again? James said that to be genuine Faith it *must* include Deeds, or Works! When you refer to Justification you are confusing Christian Works with Christ's Work of atoning for our sins! I'm not referring to Justification in that sense. I'm only talking about qualifying Faith as genuine Faith! To be genuine Faith it *must* have Works! That's what James is saying! I think you are bringing up the Justification part?

    Why do you ignore this? I've quoted it to you repeatedly, and I don't really care to repeat it anymore. If you have no answers, then just quit arguing your points. Unless you address this, your arguments fall flat.
    I have answered EVERYTIME you quoted it.
    James did NOT say Faith MUST include DEEDS.
    Taking words out of CONTEXT hurts your argument, it doesn't support it.
    In CONTEXT James was saying, you say one thing, but do nothing to show you believe what you say. It is empty wind. Faith is lived out! This is the essence of what he wrote.
    If (as you are) you make genuine faith to be that of qualifying faith, and that for you to have qualifying faith you require works, THEN you are saying works are REQUIRED for justification.
    Genuine Faith requires BELIEF in God, and in His Son Jesus. That is ALL that is needed for genuine faith.
    IF you have Genuine Faith THEN you will in consequence walk in the light. You will do deeds in keeping with your faith.

    No, James is saying that without Works *up front,* there is no true Faith at all. Without works you just don't have faith. That is what James said. Initial Faith in Christ, or an initial confession of Christ's word to our heart, *is* in fact our initial Work in Christ.
    Nope, that is NOT what James is saying, and it matters not how many times you claim it.
    Faith in Christ or an initial confession is NOT our initial work in Christ.
    To claim that then you miss the point ENTIRELY that James made, which is that a person SAID something (which sounded like a blessing), but it had NO work to go with it. James was saying a WORK is an action which follows up and brings to reality the blessing you give.
    So IF I say "be fed" then my work is to give you some food.
    You turn it on its head and say, my words ARE my work.

    Catholics say it right, but they don't mean it right. They aren't defining *what works* are required to be "works of Faith." And that is critical.
    If Catholics add belief in Catholic traditions, and participating in Catholic rituals, as part of the "works of faith," then they are adding works that are *not* of Faith! Even doing good deeds without Christ in their heart are not "works of Faith."
    True "works of Faith" are the product of Christ's word to their heart, and to be a true Work the response of Faith must be acceptance of that word.
    This is the "human" part of the "Work." We choose to embrace the word of Christ to our heart, which becomes our first Christian Work!
    Thereafter, when Christ comes into our heart, through the Spirit, we are able to do good works *through Christ.* So Works can indeed follow an initial commitment of faith to the word of Christ.
    As you wish....
    Catholics have MANY things right.
    Embracing the word of God to our heart is NOT our work, that is FAITH.
    WORK is when that faith changes us to have compassion and so DO something compassionate in response.

    The Bible is clear, we have faith and from that faith comes our actions. So James can say you KNOW my faith by what I DO:
    Jas 2:18* But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I have answered EVERYTIME you quoted it.
    James did NOT say Faith MUST include DEEDS.
    Yes he did!
    That's exactly what he said.
    He said Faith MUST included DEEDS.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Taking words out of CONTEXT hurts your argument, it doesn't support it.
    In CONTEXT James was saying, you say one thing, but do nothing to show you believe what you say. It is empty wind. Faith is lived out! This is the essence of what he wrote.
    Yes, but James said more than this. He said not just that faith should be lived out, but that it MUST be lived out, or it is not Faith at all! Faith MUST include DEEDS.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    If (as you are) you make genuine faith to be that of qualifying faith, and that for you to have qualifying faith you require works, THEN you are saying works are REQUIRED for justification.
    No, that's what *you* are saying I'm saying. I'm not really saying that in the least. In fact I've said the opposite of that. Works do not have to be "justifying Works!" Works can just be Good Works. They do not justify for eternity. They just qualify as something God considers "good."

    Consider the Rich Young Ruler. He did all kinds of good religious works, and yet he was not considered "good enough" to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But to enter God's Kingdom we must join to our Faith good works so that Faith can be viewed as genuine Faith. As such our Faith will be able to latch onto the atoning Christ, so that our faith can qualify as real Faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Genuine Faith requires BELIEF in God, and in His Son Jesus. That is ALL that is needed for genuine faith.
    IF you have Genuine Faith THEN you will in consequence walk in the light. You will do deeds in keeping with your faith.
    That's true. But the initial choice for Christ is a work too. It grasps hold of Christ's word, and become a "faith choice." Inasmuch as we, as humans, make the choice, it is a Work. We don't earn our own salvation. We are only doing good by expressing faith in Christ's atonement.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Nope, that is NOT what James is saying, and it matters not how many times you claim it.
    Faith in Christ or an initial confession is NOT our initial work in Christ.
    I understand you don't believe this, but I do. Jesus said so. "This is the Work of God, to believe."

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    To claim that then you miss the point ENTIRELY that James made, which is that a person SAID something (which sounded like a blessing), but it had NO work to go with it. James was saying a WORK is an action which follows up and brings to reality the blessing you give.
    I don't miss that at all! I agree with it! Works follows faith, but to be valid Faith must also be a Work! Man must play a role, with his volition, in exercising Faith!

    It is not enough to just have faith in anything. To be valid as a work of faith our faith must be directed at Christ. This is a choice we make, and renders our Faith genuine.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    So IF I say "be fed" then my work is to give you some food.
    You turn it on its head and say, my words ARE my work.
    No, I'm saying that both the words and the work are a Work. The words are an expression of genuine Faith if that Faith is being directed to Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Catholics have MANY things right.
    Embracing the word of God to our heart is NOT our work, that is FAITH.
    You are saying so, but Jesus said the opposite. He said the Work of God is our Faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    WORK is when that faith changes us to have compassion and so DO something compassionate in response.
    Yes, but the initial choice to embrace Christ's compassion is both Faith and a Work.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    The Bible is clear, we have faith and from that faith comes our actions. So James can say you KNOW my faith by what I DO:
    Jas 2:18* But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
    Yes, James is saying we can know true faith by the works that follow. But the implication of that is that faith is of a nature that it includes works with it. Otherwise, works does not necessarily follow faith. But true faith *must* have works follow it. As such, faith and works are by nature one.

    What makes faith genuine and necessarily including works is the fact we choose to direct our faith at Christ. This enables us to participate in him, so as to do what he did. Any faith that precedes works, and thus can exclude works, is not genuine faith, because faith MUST include DEEDS! Faith must be exercised towards Christ so that it *will* include works!

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Getting back to the original theme, I would argue that faith, in order to "save," must have built within it access to God Himself. To direct our faith towards God is to access His salvation.

    To have validity our faith must not only access God, but it must access Him in such a way as to be willing to put Him in operation in our lives. This is true faith. Otherwise, it is an empty faith, devoid of works.

    My point is that works are critical in our faith in the same way our faith must appropriate God's nature into our own nature for the purpose of redemption. We must access God in order to render our works worthwhile with respect to eternity.

    And so, faith saves us, not by our providing our own atoning works, but rather, by our accessing God, who Himself provides us with both the power to do good and the ability to make our deeds count for eternity, through the atonement He has Himself provided.

    Under the Old Covenant, or the temple system, faith was necessarily expressed by Israel in obedience to temple law. Thes works were a necessary application of God's work in our lives, as we choose, by faith, to express His nature into our lives. These works justified our faith as real, enabling us to take hold of God's salvation.

    To be real, then, our faith must include works. Under the Old Covenant this required that Israel apply the Law of Moses. Under the New Covenant of Christ we are required to obey Christ. Our faith, thus, *must* include works, since the very 1st work we do is to choose for the One who enables us to do them!

    None of this means that the work we do, under the Law or otherwise, has a thing to do with atoning for our own sins. Rather, they are a necessary expression of our faith in God under the system in which we are operating. True faith must operate within the system under which God has put us. We must, therefore, do works, if we have faith at all!

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes he did!
    That's exactly what he said.
    He said Faith MUST included DEEDS.
    Nope.
    He said SHOW me your faith BY your deeds.
    Deeds are a DEMONSTRATION of Faith.

    Yes, but James said more than this. He said not just that faith should be lived out, but that it MUST be lived out, or it is not Faith at all! Faith MUST include DEEDS.
    Nope, and as I noted the Bandit did NO deeds, but was definitely having faith and was confirmed by Jesus as going to heaven.
    You fail to follow what James is saying and then this leads you down a garden path.

    No, that's what *you* are saying I'm saying. I'm not really saying that in the least. In fact I've said the opposite of that. Works do not have to be "justifying Works!" Works can just be Good Works. They do not justify for eternity. They just qualify as something God considers "good."

    Consider the Rich Young Ruler. He did all kinds of good religious works, and yet he was not considered "good enough" to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But to enter God's Kingdom we must join to our Faith good works so that Faith can be viewed as genuine Faith. As such our Faith will be able to latch onto the atoning Christ, so that our faith can qualify as real Faith.
    It is what you are saying. If you don't understand what you are saying then maybe stop and reconsider.
    You have said without works you have no faith, and to have "true" faith you MUST have works, therefore you are saying works qualifies the faith.

    That's true. But the initial choice for Christ is a work too. It grasps hold of Christ's word, and become a "faith choice." Inasmuch as we, as humans, make the choice, it is a Work. We don't earn our own salvation. We are only doing good by expressing faith in Christ's atonement.
    No it isn't.
    Simply choosing something is NOT a work. James would be very upset with you.
    Simply making a choice is not a work, but ACTING upon your choice THAT is a WORK.

    I understand you don't believe this, but I do. Jesus said so. "This is the Work of God, to believe."
    Jesus is saying the OPPOSITE to what you claim. Jesus says "this is the work of God!"
    This is GOD's work, not your work, not my work. GOD's work.
    If you quote something try to agree with what it says!

    I don't miss that at all! I agree with it! Works follows faith, but to be valid Faith must also be a Work! Man must play a role, with his volition, in exercising Faith!
    It is not enough to just have faith in anything. To be valid as a work of faith our faith must be directed at Christ. This is a choice we make, and renders our Faith genuine.


    No, I'm saying that both the words and the work are a Work. The words are an expression of genuine Faith if that Faith is being directed to Christ.
    Not according to James.
    He wrote "If someone says..." the words are NOT the work. A work is ALWAYS an ACTION, something you DO!

    You are saying so, but Jesus said the opposite. He said the Work of God is our Faith.
    No Jesus did NOT say the opposite.
    God's Work is our faith, NOT our work - Gods!

    Yes, but the initial choice to embrace Christ's compassion is both Faith and a Work.
    Our FAITH, but God's work. Not OUR work.

    Yes, James is saying we can know true faith by the works that follow. But the implication of that is that faith is of a nature that it includes works with it. Otherwise, works does not necessarily follow faith. But true faith *must* have works follow it. As such, faith and works are by nature one.
    It is indeed an implication. True faith does NOT have to have works follow it, as I noted form the Bandit on the cross and from Genesis.
    True faith leads to works, but works is not a pre-requisite, which is what you are arguing for.

    What makes faith genuine and necessarily including works is the fact we choose to direct our faith at Christ. This enables us to participate in him, so as to do what he did. Any faith that precedes works, and thus can exclude works, is not genuine faith, because faith MUST include DEEDS! Faith must be exercised towards Christ so that it *will* include works!
    ALL faith precedes works, for the works MUST follow from our faith. You have no reason to do a work EXCEPT you have the faith already.

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope.
    He said SHOW me your faith BY your deeds.
    Deeds are a DEMONSTRATION of Faith.
    Yes, deeds are a demonstration of faith. But faith, to be genuine faith, *must* have deeds. It must demonstrate works. "This is the work of God, that you believe." What Jesus is saying here is that if we are to truly be doing the work of God, we must believe in God's Son! He was not saying that faith is strictly God's work, and not man's work!

    You really have things turned around. You seem to be saying that even our faith is not *human* faith? What--you think God is believing for us? And you think God's faith is a work, but not our human faith?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Nope, and as I noted the Bandit did NO deeds, but was definitely having faith and was confirmed by Jesus as going to heaven.
    You fail to follow what James is saying and then this leads you down a garden path.
    The bandit *believed,* which was the work God gave him to do. His witness was a work of evangelism that is even reaching us today! And even if we didn't hear his testimony, the angels did. That's all God requires of us to be saved, that we confess His Son as the source of our salvation and good works!

    You seem to have a problem with the term "good works," and I suspect it comes from the dichotomy Paul created between "carnal works" and "spiritual works." You need to stop assuming that all "deeds" are "carnal works?" The kind of works that proves we have saving faith are the very works that Christ did, and which we receive through faith!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    It is what you are saying. If you don't understand what you are saying then maybe stop and reconsider.
    You have said without works you have no faith, and to have "true" faith you MUST have works, therefore you are saying works qualifies the faith.
    I know what I'm saying. I don't know what you're saying. Yes, without works one does not have genuine faith. That is what James said. Faith without deeds is dead. It couldn't be put any more simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    No it isn't.
    Simply choosing something is NOT a work. James would be very upset with you.
    Simply making a choice is not a work, but ACTING upon your choice THAT is a WORK.
    James would not be angry with me because in the choice to believe in Christ we are also choosing to believe that his life is to be the source of our own good works. Whatever we do after receiving Christ we do by the spiritual life that is within us. We draw upon the love of Christ within to produce good deeds. That is what James was trying to encourage to do in having genuine faith, to use that faith to produce the works of faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Jesus is saying the OPPOSITE to what you claim. Jesus says "this is the work of God!"
    This is GOD's work, not your work, not my work. GOD's work.
    If you quote something try to agree with what it says!
    You've got it backwards. Jesus wasn't saying that this was strictly God's work, and not man's! Rather, he was telling us what we should be doing if we want to be doing the work of God! If we want to be doing the work of God we must believe in God's Son! God doesn't do that for us. We must do it!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory

    Not according to James.
    He wrote "If someone says..." the words are NOT the work. A work is ALWAYS an ACTION, something you DO!
    Not according to Jesus. The works begin with the intent, with the *faith.* Once our faith is expressed it becomes a work, a testimony. Once we confess the truth, our work has begun. And of course, good works follow, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    No Jesus did NOT say the opposite.
    God's Work is our faith, NOT our work - Gods!
    You have it backwards. Jesus wants us to do God's work, not just our own work! If God alone does the work, what work do we do?

    But it's plain that our willingness to do God's work is to begin with exercising faith in the source of our good deeds--Christ himself. And that's what I think Jesus means here. He's not trying to say so much that faith is the same thing as work. Rather, he's saying that faith has the same quality that works does, and so one is meant to produce the other. True work must begin with true faith. And true faith is exercised by men in the direction of God's Son, because that's where our virtue comes from.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Our FAITH, but God's work. Not OUR work.
    I think you're hung up on the word "work." We must do work--not just God! When we work together we *both* are doing the work!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    It is indeed an implication. True faith does NOT have to have works follow it, as I noted form the Bandit on the cross and from Genesis.
    According to James, faith *must* have good works built into it. Even if we die before doing any good works we still have good works built into our faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    True faith leads to works, but works is not a pre-requisite, which is what you are arguing for.
    According to James, the kind of faith necessary to save does in fact have good deeds built into it. I wouldn't go so far as to say someone has to do X amount of work to prove it--only that good works are built into the faith. If one, then, has the *opportunity* to work, it *must* be evident.

    I think you're turning this into a faith vs. works definition. But I'm trying to explain the necessarily correlation between works and faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    ALL faith precedes works, for the works MUST follow from our faith. You have no reason to do a work EXCEPT you have the faith already.
    Saving faith must have good deeds built into that faith, whether a person is able to demonstrate deeds later or not. Just the act of believing is a good work--whether you want to believe it or not. It is not a saving work in the sense that the faith achieves salvation without Christ. Rather, it is a saving work in the sense that a human being expresses initiative to ingest Christ as his source of atonement and good works. That is prerequisite to salvation, and it does begin with the "good confession."

    1 Timothy 6.12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, deeds are a demonstration of faith. But faith, to be genuine faith, *must* have deeds. It must demonstrate works. "This is the work of God, that you believe." What Jesus is saying here is that if we are to truly be doing the work of God, we must believe in God's Son! He was not saying that faith is strictly God's work, and not man's work!
    I will say this for the last time. Jesus said this is GOD's work, NOT Man's.
    Read what He said "this is the WORK OF GOD."

    You really have things turned around. You seem to be saying that even our faith is not *human* faith? What--you think God is believing for us? And you think God's faith is a work, but not our human faith?
    2Co 3:3* And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
    Who writes on our hearts? Is it ourselves or God?
    Our faith does NOT come from within us, but from Him and is a work of His.
    We then respond to His work in us. Our faith is acceptance of who He is believing Him, but this is FAITH and not WORK.

    You seem unable to distinguish the difference between FAITH and WORK.

    The bandit *believed,* which was the work God gave him to do. His witness was a work of evangelism that is even reaching us today! And even if we didn't hear his testimony, the angels did. That's all God requires of us to be saved, that we confess His Son as the source of our salvation and good works!

    You seem to have a problem with the term "good works," and I suspect it comes from the dichotomy Paul created between "carnal works" and "spiritual works." You need to stop assuming that all "deeds" are "carnal works?" The kind of works that proves we have saving faith are the very works that Christ did, and which we receive through faith!
    Believing is NOT a WORK, but is FAITH. That is what FAITH is!
    To whom did the Bandit go and evangelise? No one, therefore any work of evangelism is people pointing to the FAITH that the Bandit had.
    All that God requires of us to be saved is that we confess His son.
    Nothing else is required for salvation.
    As saved people, His Spirit is then in us which leads us to walk in the light and so do good works.
    There is NO such thing as carnal works and spiritual works.
    There is simply good works and works which are not good.
    However you have totally confused WORK and FAITH.
    James even shows this and you don't listen to him.

    This all has nothing to do with whether the Jews will build a third temple.
    I suggest if you really want to get others involved them start a thread in Bible Chat.

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I will say this for the last time. Jesus said this is GOD's work, NOT Man's.
    Read what He said "this is the WORK OF GOD."
    Indeed, please let it be the *last time* you say it, because it simply isn't true. You don't interpret the verse right. You don't read it right!

    I will try to say this the last time as well: Jesus was saying that if you want to do the work of God you must believe. That is what the passage is saying--not what you're saying!

    It's like this. Joe says he's doing the work of God. Sally says she's doing the work of God. But Jesus said, "If you want to say you're doing the work of God, you must believe in the Son of God. That's where genuine works of God come from." (this is, of course, my paraphrase)

    This is not Man's work vs. God's work. This is a work in partnership with God. It is man believing in the Son, and thus doing through the Son. You don't seem to get that?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    2Co 3:3* And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
    Who writes on our hearts? Is it ourselves or God?
    It's as I said. The Son is the source of our virtue. And it is we who both believe and do the work. Jesus did the work of redemption. But we accept him into our heart so that we can do the work of righteousness.

    God speaks to us through His word, but it is we who choose to believe that word. And so, this is a partnership between God and ourselves. He provides the virtue, and we provide the obedience, the conformity to God's word.

    If you'll remember, the priests under the old covenant wore linen garments, which expressed the fact their work was not to reach the level of sweating. They worked, but the work they represented was God's work. And so, it was a partnership between God and Man. It is *not* just God!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Our faith does NOT come from within us, but from Him and is a work of His.
    We then respond to His work in us. Our faith is acceptance of who He is believing Him, but this is FAITH and not WORK.
    I don't know what you mean or what you're saying? I never said our faith comes from within us? Faith comes from our mind, when our heart chooses to embrace God's word. When we choose to embrace Christ we are embracing God's word. And since he is our Redeemer, we receive him into our heart. At that point we can draw upon our spiritual reserves from within so that we can continue to do good works.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    You seem unable to distinguish the difference between FAITH and WORK.
    No, I can do that. But it is a little more complicated when speaking of how they relate to one another. Work generally does follow faith. But works have to be built into the faith for works to result.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Believing is NOT a WORK, but is FAITH. That is what FAITH is!
    As I said, faith has works built into it. Otherwise, faith would not result in works. Jesus said that simply believing is part of the work of God. I take Him at His word!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    To whom did the Bandit go and evangelise? No one, therefore any work of evangelism is people pointing to the FAITH that the Bandit had.
    As I said, the work of the Bandit was *confession.* He made the *good confession.* That was a public statement of embracing the Son of God. There were witnesses.

    Do you think an evangelist has to build houses in order to do work? No, evangelism is itself a work!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    All that God requires of us to be saved is that we confess His son.
    Nothing else is required for salvation.
    Confession is itself a work. To believe is a work of God, according to Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    As saved people, His Spirit is then in us which leads us to walk in the light and so do good works.
    There is NO such thing as carnal works and spiritual works.
    Boy do you have a lot to learn!

    Eph 4.17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.
    20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.


    There is simply good works and works which are not good.
    However you have totally confused WORK and FAITH.
    James even shows this and you don't listen to him.

    This all has nothing to do with whether the Jews will build a third temple.
    I suggest if you really want to get others involved them start a thread in Bible Chat.[/QUOTE]

    I've started plenty of threads. Why don't you start one?

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Indeed, please let it be the *last time* you say it, because it simply isn't true. You don't interpret the verse right. You don't read it right!
    I will try to say this the last time as well: Jesus was saying that if you want to do the work of God you must believe. That is what the passage is saying--not what you're saying!
    It's like this. Joe says he's doing the work of God. Sally says she's doing the work of God. But Jesus said, "If you want to say you're doing the work of God, you must believe in the Son of God. That's where genuine works of God come from." (this is, of course, my paraphrase)
    Unfortunately your paraphrase does NOT match what Jesus ACTUALLY said.

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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes he did!
    That's exactly what he said.
    He said Faith MUST included DEEDS.



    Yes, but James said more than this. He said not just that faith should be lived out, but that it MUST be lived out, or it is not Faith at all! Faith MUST include DEEDS.



    No, that's what *you* are saying I'm saying. I'm not really saying that in the least. In fact I've said the opposite of that. Works do not have to be "justifying Works!" Works can just be Good Works. They do not justify for eternity. They just qualify as something God considers "good."

    Consider the Rich Young Ruler. He did all kinds of good religious works, and yet he was not considered "good enough" to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But to enter God's Kingdom we must join to our Faith good works so that Faith can be viewed as genuine Faith. As such our Faith will be able to latch onto the atoning Christ, so that our faith can qualify as real Faith.



    That's true. But the initial choice for Christ is a work too. It grasps hold of Christ's word, and become a "faith choice." Inasmuch as we, as humans, make the choice, it is a Work. We don't earn our own salvation. We are only doing good by expressing faith in Christ's atonement.



    I understand you don't believe this, but I do. Jesus said so. "This is the Work of God, to believe."



    I don't miss that at all! I agree with it! Works follows faith, but to be valid Faith must also be a Work! Man must play a role, with his volition, in exercising Faith!

    It is not enough to just have faith in anything. To be valid as a work of faith our faith must be directed at Christ. This is a choice we make, and renders our Faith genuine.



    No, I'm saying that both the words and the work are a Work. The words are an expression of genuine Faith if that Faith is being directed to Christ.



    You are saying so, but Jesus said the opposite. He said the Work of God is our Faith.



    Yes, but the initial choice to embrace Christ's compassion is both Faith and a Work.



    Yes, James is saying we can know true faith by the works that follow. But the implication of that is that faith is of a nature that it includes works with it. Otherwise, works does not necessarily follow faith. But true faith *must* have works follow it. As such, faith and works are by nature one.

    What makes faith genuine and necessarily including works is the fact we choose to direct our faith at Christ. This enables us to participate in him, so as to do what he did. Any faith that precedes works, and thus can exclude works, is not genuine faith, because faith MUST include DEEDS! Faith must be exercised towards Christ so that it *will* include works!
    Good Summary Randy, showing the synergy of the relationship that faith and works have in the life of the redeemed human being.

    I always like to throw in Paul’s quote at this time:

    “The just shall live by faith”.

    (Paul btw, some do not know, was quoting Habakkuk, showing the same saving continuity of faith spanning OT & NT)

  10. #130
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    Re: Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Good Summary Randy, showing the synergy of the relationship that faith and works have in the life of the redeemed human being.

    I always like to throw in Paul’s quote at this time:

    “The just shall live by faith”.

    (Paul btw, some do not know, was quoting Habakkuk, showing the same saving continuity of faith spanning OT & NT)
    whoa, I never thought of that! One of my favorite passages in the Bible:

    Hab 3.17
    Though the fig tree does not bud
    and there are no grapes on the vines,
    though the olive crop fails
    and the fields produce no food,
    though there are no sheep in the pen
    and no cattle in the stalls,
    18
    yet I will rejoice in the Lord,
    I will be joyful in God my Savior.


    Faith transcends the fall of the temple, and the end of the OT era. Faith transitions into the NT, and endures forever. It is the universal basis of human righteousness because it is the exclusive means of responding, favorably, to God's word. Once we accept Christ as His salvation, he becomes a reservoir in our heart so that we always know how to act in a loving way. The world has a conscience but does not know what it means to have God's love reside within them, guiding them every day.

    I was raised in Lutheranism from birth, and know Protestantism pretty well. I know we are not saved by religious works. But true faith has, I believe, works built into it--not atoning works from ourselves, but righteousness from Christ so that we may do it. The works of Christ are also built into our faith--his atonement and his righteousness. We cannot atone for ourselves, but it provides Christ to us free of charge--that is what the atonement was for.

    So we don't work and earn our own salvation. We only work because Christ atoned for us so that we can receive him into our hearts and do the righteous deeds that he himself did.

    Thanks for the encouragement, brother. This is an easily misunderstood discussion, but I think it's worth having.

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