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Thread: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

  1. #31
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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by hobie View Post
    No, you have to understand it was the Jews that had rejected what God had given them and fell into a abomination that caused the desolation. Antiochus, as already made clear, doesn't fit, as Jesus declared it looking forward in time, not backwards.

    You need to compare Daniels time of the destruction of the first temple. Christ points us to Daniel, and we see in Daniel 11:31: “31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.” Daniel 11:31(KJV)

    This shows this issue is tied to the relationship between God and His people and the accompanying worship to God, their rejection first of this, being contrary to the worship God deserves which caused the ruin of that nation. ...
    Some interpret the "abomination of desolation" to be a rebellion committed by the Jewish People. Indeed, during Antiochus 4's exploits he utilized Jewish rebellion against the religious orthodoxy of the day to paganize Jewish religion.

    My own view is that this "rebellion" referred more, in Antiochus' time, to what Antiochus himself was doing in "rebelling" against God. Although he utilized compromising Jews in this "rebellion," the rebellion was his, and he was revolting against God Himself.

    We see the same thing in 2 Thes 2, where Paul speaks of the Antichrist and his "rebellion" against God. And so, when I interpret the "abomination of desolation," mentioned by Jesus in Matt 24.15, I believe it is a reference to the attempted establishment of pagan religion in Israel, and specifically to the incursion of a pagan Roman Army into the "holy place," which was the area around Jerusalem.

    This was a Roman revolt against God, by establishing emperor worship in the very place where God had asked the Jews to worship Himself alone. It may have foreshadowed the coming of Antichrist, who likewise will take his seat in the temple of God, which is another way of saying he will put the worship of himself in the place of worship of the true God.

    Jesus specifically described this as "eagles gathering in the place of a corpse." The Romans had pagan eagle symbols, accompanied by a sign of emperor worship, upon their standards. The encirclement of these Romans troops apparently constituted, for Jesus, an incursion into the holy place, since it was an encroachment upon the territory surrounding and protecting the temple. It was, in every sense, a rebellion against God Himself, as this pagan Army thought nothing to replacing Jewish monotheism with emperor worship.

  2. #32
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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I agree in the main with your last sentence, but there is a point that might cause the events of Antiochus and Titus to have nothing to to do with what Daniel Predicted in Chapter 9.

    When Solomon's Temple was completed the glory of God filled it. But of the Temple built by Zerubbabel we have no such record. In Ezra the old men wept when they saw the new building as it was not nearly up to the standard of Solomon's. But God answers in Haggai 2:1-9 that the glory of this second House would supersede that of the first. Again we have nor record of this. But what this House had that was greater than the first House, was that our Lord Jesus entered it. Solomon's House for God housed the Almighty, Creator and God of pure justice. Was there are greater glory than this? Yes. Our Lord Jesus was the Almighty, Creator and in Him God fulfilled pure justice AND THEN HE COULD EXTEND MERCY AND RECOVERY. Thus, Christ's presence in that Temple, though He probably never went into the Holy of Holies as a Judean and not a Levite, was the GREATER GLORY OF GOD.

    If this is true, then the House that our Lord Jesus called "my Father's House" in John Chapter 2, only became that House when our Lord was presented at age 12 (Lk.2:49). And at age 33˝ years, our Lord Jesus, having been rejected and accused of acting under the inspiration of Beelzebub, told the Jews in Matthew 23:38 and Luke 13:35 ...

    "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

    This verse shows a number of things;
    • Whereas in John 2:16 our Lord Jesus called this House "MY Father's House", here He calls it "YOUR House". He no longer associates the Temple with Jehovah
    • This House is "LEFT" desolate. That is, because our Lord Jesus would grace it no more, and LEFT it, it is considered by the Holy Spirit as "desolate"
    • The glory and presence of God in this House is bound to Jesus. By Him being NOT SEEN anymore, He makes it desolate. This also confirms my theory above that Zerubbabel's Temple only enjoyed God's glory when our Lord Jesus had graced it

    Thus, the historical record of Antiochus 4 and the historical record of Titus, DO NOT MAKE ZERUBBABEL'S TEMPLE "DESOLATE" BECAUSE IT WAS DESOLATE UNTIL OUR LORD JESUS ENTERED IT AND MADE "DESOLATE" AGAIN WHEN HE DESERTED IT.

    Why do I point this out? Simply because the prophecy of Daniel in Chapter 9 points to a single event at the close of the the gospel age. Attributing a string of other events to Daniel to try to force it to have been fulfilled is not warranted.
    Well, you know we disagree on this, but you have some good points that I would agree with. Yes, you note an important transition in the history of Zerubbabel's temple, when the Jews turned from Jesus and Jesus began to call this house "your house," and not his "Father's house."

    But I think Jesus wasn't calling the temple his "Father's house" either, although it certainly was the "house of God," and a "house of prayer." That's because his Father's house was a temple in heaven, and not a physical temple at all. It was the place where God chooses to dwell in and with His people. And so, the temple of Herod, though considered close to being rejected by God, was not actually rejected by God until Jesus died.

    We know this because Jesus reaffirmed the practice of temple law up until his death when he said, "I came to fulfill the Law." And so, even when Jesus referred to the temple as "your house," it still remained God's house. But I agree there was this period of transition, from God's house to "your house." It just wasn't complete until Jesus died.

    I also agree that the glory that came into Zerubbabel's temple was Jesus' glory. I don't think the Scriptures are saying that Jesus would actually enter into the temple, as a man. Rather, the glory of that temple was Jesus himself, whether or not he actually entered into the holy of holies physically. Since he was not a priest after the Levitical order he could only enter into the temple in his glory, and not as an unglorified man.

    I don't believe I force any interpretation upon Dan 9 and Matt 24/Luke 21. They all refer to the 70 Weeks, at the end of which Messiah is killed, and the temple destroyed. I have little doubt that the "Abomination of Desolation" is the encirclement of Jerusalem by Roman troops, who are bent on imposing emperor worship over Jewish symbols of worship, because of the Jewish rebellion against them. Indeed, the Olivet Discourse is all about prophesying the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

    Therefore, the "desolation" of the temple took place when Roman troops encircled Jerusalem, and ultimately entered into Jerusalem and destroyed the temple. It was about the "destruction" of the temple, and not simply about God's abandonment of the temple worship.

  3. #33
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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Well, you know we disagree on this, but you have some good points that I would agree with. Yes, you note an important transition in the history of Zerubbabel's temple, when the Jews turned from Jesus and Jesus began to call this house "your house," and not his "Father's house."

    But I think Jesus wasn't calling the temple his "Father's house" either, although it certainly was the "house of God," and a "house of prayer." That's because his Father's house was a temple in heaven, and not a physical temple at all. It was the place where God chooses to dwell in and with His people. And so, the temple of Herod, though considered close to being rejected by God, was not actually rejected by God until Jesus died.

    We know this because Jesus reaffirmed the practice of temple law up until his death when he said, "I came to fulfill the Law." And so, even when Jesus referred to the temple as "your house," it still remained God's house. But I agree there was this period of transition, from God's house to "your house." It just wasn't complete until Jesus died.

    I also agree that the glory that came into Zerubbabel's temple was Jesus' glory. I don't think the Scriptures are saying that Jesus would actually enter into the temple, as a man. Rather, the glory of that temple was Jesus himself, whether or not he actually entered into the holy of holies physically. Since he was not a priest after the Levitical order he could only enter into the temple in his glory, and not as an unglorified man.

    I don't believe I force any interpretation upon Dan 9 and Matt 24/Luke 21. They all refer to the 70 Weeks, at the end of which Messiah is killed, and the temple destroyed. I have little doubt that the "Abomination of Desolation" is the encirclement of Jerusalem by Roman troops, who are bent on imposing emperor worship over Jewish symbols of worship, because of the Jewish rebellion against them. Indeed, the Olivet Discourse is all about prophesying the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

    Therefore, the "desolation" of the temple took place when Roman troops encircled Jerusalem, and ultimately entered into Jerusalem and destroyed the temple. It was about the "destruction" of the temple, and not simply about God's abandonment of the temple worship.
    Yes. We've thrashed this out before.

    If our Lord Jesus called the Temple of His time "my Father's House" you can be sure it was. The alternative is to say that our Lord lied.
    Herod did not build the Temple of our Lord's time. He embellished the Outer Court. It took 46 years in building

    In Daniel 9 the 70 SEVENS do not end with Messiah cut off. The 69th ends so.
    In Matthew 24 the Temple is predicted destroyed BEFORE the threefold question in verse 3. There is no talk of the Temple after verse 3 when our Lord answered.
    In Luke 21 70 AD is richly referred to UNTIL our Lord transitions to the end days in verse 24 and the end of the times of the Gentiles. I doubt if even you would agree that the "times of the Gentiles" were full in 70 AD.

    But, to each his own.

  4. #34
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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Yes. We've thrashed this out before.

    If our Lord Jesus called the Temple of His time "my Father's House" you can be sure it was. The alternative is to say that our Lord lied.
    Herod did not build the Temple of our Lord's time. He embellished the Outer Court. It took 46 years in building

    In Daniel 9 the 70 SEVENS do not end with Messiah cut off. The 69th ends so.
    In Matthew 24 the Temple is predicted destroyed BEFORE the threefold question in verse 3. There is no talk of the Temple after verse 3 when our Lord answered.
    In Luke 21 70 AD is richly referred to UNTIL our Lord transitions to the end days in verse 24 and the end of the times of the Gentiles. I doubt if even you would agree that the "times of the Gentiles" were full in 70 AD.

    But, to each his own.
    Right. John 14 has Jesus referring, I think, to a different house. I had forgot that Jesus also referred to the temple as his "Father's house." I already said that it was legitimately "God's house." I just forgot that Jesus also called the temple his "Father's house." So, I accept the correction.

    I think I wished to point out that Jesus' Father's house was also a different house in heaven, after which the temple had been patterned. And I agreed with you that Jesus seemed to refer to the temple as the "Jews' house," sort of transitioning it away from "God's house" to "the Jews' house."

    As you can see, these words are fairly precise, and I'm not surprised I trip up over them a bit. Thanks.

    I don't know what you mean by the "times of the Gentiles" were "full" in 70 AD? I believe the "times of the Gentiles" are complete at the return of Christ.

  5. #35

    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Some interpret the "abomination of desolation" to be a rebellion committed by the Jewish People. Indeed, during Antiochus 4's exploits he utilized Jewish rebellion against the religious orthodoxy of the day to paganize Jewish religion.

    My own view is that this "rebellion" referred more, in Antiochus' time, to what Antiochus himself was doing in "rebelling" against God. Although he utilized compromising Jews in this "rebellion," the rebellion was his, and he was revolting against God Himself.

    We see the same thing in 2 Thes 2, where Paul speaks of the Antichrist and his "rebellion" against God. And so, when I interpret the "abomination of desolation," mentioned by Jesus in Matt 24.15, I believe it is a reference to the attempted establishment of pagan religion in Israel, and specifically to the incursion of a pagan Roman Army into the "holy place," which was the area around Jerusalem.

    This was a Roman revolt against God, by establishing emperor worship in the very place where God had asked the Jews to worship Himself alone. It may have foreshadowed the coming of Antichrist, who likewise will take his seat in the temple of God, which is another way of saying he will put the worship of himself in the place of worship of the true God.

    Jesus specifically described this as "eagles gathering in the place of a corpse." The Romans had pagan eagle symbols, accompanied by a sign of emperor worship, upon their standards. The encirclement of these Romans troops apparently constituted, for Jesus, an incursion into the holy place, since it was an encroachment upon the territory surrounding and protecting the temple. It was, in every sense, a rebellion against God Himself, as this pagan Army thought nothing to replacing Jewish monotheism with emperor worship.
    As I already pointed out, he doesn't fit as Christ was clear that it was to come as it plainly did when the Romans basically desolated the Jews and their land till 1948 and still they cant get control of the site where the Temple (and worship site) stood.

  6. #36
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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Right. John 14 has Jesus referring, I think, to a different house. I had forgot that Jesus also referred to the temple as his "Father's house." I already said that it was legitimately "God's house." I just forgot that Jesus also called the temple his "Father's house." So, I accept the correction.

    I think I wished to point out that Jesus' Father's house was also a different house in heaven, after which the temple had been patterned. And I agreed with you that Jesus seemed to refer to the temple as the "Jews' house," sort of transitioning it away from "God's house" to "the Jews' house."

    As you can see, these words are fairly precise, and I'm not surprised I trip up over them a bit. Thanks.

    I don't know what you mean by the "times of the Gentiles" were "full" in 70 AD? I believe the "times of the Gentiles" are complete at the return of Christ.
    Wow. What a courteous answer. I commend you.

    You are correct. The Father dwells in Heaven, and as you pointed out, has a House, for earth, that both Moses and David had to copy. The Father required this "House", not to replace the one in Heaven, but so that He could live WITH Israel but be separated from their defiling flesh. But God's intent was always to live IN Man - hence the Tree of Life and the EATING of it. The fruit would ENTER a man and become organically one with the man. Israel had a legitimate House for God, but it was to be replaced by a "Spiritual House" and so, whichever way Israel had gone, the House at Jerusalem became outdated. God DID live in the Tabernacle, He DID live in Solomon's Temple, and our Lord Jesus DID grace Zerubbabel's Temple. But the rejection of Emmanuel (Jesus) and thus the rejection of God's appointed and anointed One, forced the Temple to become Israel "desolate" House.

    However, in that Israel rejected Christ, God's plan then is to keep the status quo. When Israel's chastisement is over and they are restored, a new Temple is build because their King, Emmanuel, will dwell with them again. Now, because Israel refused their Messiah they can (i) never get to the Tree of Life, and (ii) for those not resurrected, have the flesh as a hindrance. Added to this, the Nations are required to pay homage to Emmanuel in this time of Israe's restoration (Zech:14:16). So a House for Emmanuel in Jerusalem is to be made (i) again to maintain a separation from a Holy God and profane men , and (ii) to reflect the changes in this House because of Emmanuel's finished work in life and death. This is the Temple or "House" of the latter Chapters of Ezekiel (Ezek.40:5, 45-48, etc.). It is thus the House that the prophets predicted in Isaiah 2:2. "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."

    As to "the Times of the Gentiles", we were discussing Luke 21. Your appreciation of it is that it addresses Jerusalem in AD 70. My appreciation of it is that a large portion of it concerns events leading up to AD 70, but that at a certain point the prophecy jumps to the events leading up to the end of the age and Christ's return. The verse that signals that AD 70 is left behind and the days of the end of the age come into view is verse 24. Verse 23 ends with "wrath upon THIS People". "This People" are Judah, and God's wrath descended on them in accordance with the Parable of the Wedding feast in Matthew 22:7. Then, verse 24 reads; "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

    Verse 24 abruptly goes from AD 70 and the destruction, killing and dispersing of naughty Israel, to the time when the Gentiles will be banned from Jerusalem. "The Times of the Gentiles are the two times that God's people did not rule any part of the earth. The FIRST "time of the Gentiles" is from Adam to Moses. During this time God has no representation in the RULE of the earth. Then, from Joshua's conquest of Canaan, God's rule was exercised on earth, and for just under a thousand years, Israel was invincible. But, with the conquest of Nebuchadnezzar over Judah, and the subsequent destruction of God's House and the deportation of His people, God has no more representation on earth. In Daniel He is always "the God of heaven" - never "the God of heaven and EARTH". The SECOND time of the Gentiles had dawned and because Israel refused the Kingdom, this "time of the Gentiles" runs right up until the Beast - a Gentile king in Jerusalem.

    Luke 21:24, like many prophecies concerning Israel, jumps over the Church age. Because it is a prophecy concerning Israel, God does not consider them when they are under foreign rule or under chastisement. We have this again very clearly in Joel 2:28-32. This "jump" to the end of the age is obvious in Luke 21:24. It speaks of AD 70 and then jumps to the "END of the times of the Gentiles". After this verse, all the prophecy concerns the end of the age. Here are some examples;

    verse 25-26. "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring". These are phenomena predicted in Matthew 24:29 AFTER the Great Tribulation.

    verse 27. "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." Clearly Christ's Second Coming

    verse 28. "... for your redemption draweth nigh." Whose "redemption"? It is "YOUR redemption"! Who is "you"? The disciples! Are they not redeemed by the blood of Christ? Yes, but they also need to be "redeemed FROM the earth" to escape that which comes over "the WHOLE world" (Rev.14:3).

    verse 29-30. What is a "sign" of this time? "And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees - shoot forth;" The Fig Tree is Judah and "all the the Trees" are the Nations. From the First World War the number of sovereign nations has more than doubled

    verse 30. "... ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand." The "summer" when all things blossom and bloom - the Millennial Kingdom

    verse 31. "... know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" - the Millennial Kingdom of Heavenly rule on earth

    verse 34. "... and so that day come upon you unawares." "That Day" the Day that is like a thousand years which contains God's wrath, God's judgement and God's subjugation of the nations and death - the Millennial Age

    verse 35. "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth." "The WHOLE earth" - a special snare that is universal like Noah's flood

    verse 36. "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." The verse cannot be taken any other way than ...
    • It is addressed to the DISCIPLES - "ye" are the ones who called Him "Master" in verse 7
    • It alludes to the Rapture. Our Lord Jesus will return AFTER the Great Tribulation (Matt.24:29-30). So to be able to "stand before the Son of man" to escape this UNIVERSAL judgement, means you stand in the clouds - for that is where the Son of man will be!
    • It alludes to paying a price. It is, "are you WORTHY or not"? The "escape" and the "standing before the Son of man" in the clouds has to be GAINED. Some Christians will stand before the Son of man BUT NOT ESCAPE! Revelation 7:9-14 shows, "... a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, ... and whence came they? ... These are they which came out of THE great tribulation, ... ."

    Luke 21:24 is the verse that ends the prophecy concerning AD 70 and points to the closing years of the age.

  7. #37

    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Wow. What a courteous answer. I commend you.

    You are correct. The Father dwells in Heaven, and as you pointed out, has a House, for earth, that both Moses and David had to copy. The Father required this "House", not to replace the one in Heaven, but so that He could live WITH Israel but be separated from their defiling flesh. But God's intent was always to live IN Man - hence the Tree of Life and the EATING of it. The fruit would ENTER a man and become organically one with the man. Israel had a legitimate House for God, but it was to be replaced by a "Spiritual House" and so, whichever way Israel had gone, the House at Jerusalem became outdated. God DID live in the Tabernacle, He DID live in Solomon's Temple, and our Lord Jesus DID grace Zerubbabel's Temple. But the rejection of Emmanuel (Jesus) and thus the rejection of God's appointed and anointed One, forced the Temple to become Israel "desolate" House.

    However, in that Israel rejected Christ, God's plan then is to keep the status quo. When Israel's chastisement is over and they are restored, a new Temple is build because their King, Emmanuel, will dwell with them again. Now, because Israel refused their Messiah they can (i) never get to the Tree of Life, and (ii) for those not resurrected, have the flesh as a hindrance. Added to this, the Nations are required to pay homage to Emmanuel in this time of Israe's restoration (Zech:14:16). So a House for Emmanuel in Jerusalem is to be made (i) again to maintain a separation from a Holy God and profane men , and (ii) to reflect the changes in this House because of Emmanuel's finished work in life and death. This is the Temple or "House" of the latter Chapters of Ezekiel (Ezek.40:5, 45-48, etc.). It is thus the House that the prophets predicted in Isaiah 2:2. "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."

    As to "the Times of the Gentiles", we were discussing Luke 21. Your appreciation of it is that it addresses Jerusalem in AD 70. My appreciation of it is that a large portion of it concerns events leading up to AD 70, but that at a certain point the prophecy jumps to the events leading up to the end of the age and Christ's return. The verse that signals that AD 70 is left behind and the days of the end of the age come into view is verse 24. Verse 23 ends with "wrath upon THIS People". "This People" are Judah, and God's wrath descended on them in accordance with the Parable of the Wedding feast in Matthew 22:7. Then, verse 24 reads; "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

    Verse 24 abruptly goes from AD 70 and the destruction, killing and dispersing of naughty Israel, to the time when the Gentiles will be banned from Jerusalem. "The Times of the Gentiles are the two times that God's people did not rule any part of the earth. The FIRST "time of the Gentiles" is from Adam to Moses. During this time God has no representation in the RULE of the earth. Then, from Joshua's conquest of Canaan, God's rule was exercised on earth, and for just under a thousand years, Israel was invincible. But, with the conquest of Nebuchadnezzar over Judah, and the subsequent destruction of God's House and the deportation of His people, God has no more representation on earth. In Daniel He is always "the God of heaven" - never "the God of heaven and EARTH". The SECOND time of the Gentiles had dawned and because Israel refused the Kingdom, this "time of the Gentiles" runs right up until the Beast - a Gentile king in Jerusalem.

    Luke 21:24, like many prophecies concerning Israel, jumps over the Church age. Because it is a prophecy concerning Israel, God does not consider them when they are under foreign rule or under chastisement. We have this again very clearly in Joel 2:28-32. This "jump" to the end of the age is obvious in Luke 21:24. It speaks of AD 70 and then jumps to the "END of the times of the Gentiles". After this verse, all the prophecy concerns the end of the age. Here are some examples;

    verse 25-26. "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring". These are phenomena predicted in Matthew 24:29 AFTER the Great Tribulation.

    verse 27. "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." Clearly Christ's Second Coming

    verse 28. "... for your redemption draweth nigh." Whose "redemption"? It is "YOUR redemption"! Who is "you"? The disciples! Are they not redeemed by the blood of Christ? Yes, but they also need to be "redeemed FROM the earth" to escape that which comes over "the WHOLE world" (Rev.14:3).

    verse 29-30. What is a "sign" of this time? "And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees - shoot forth;" The Fig Tree is Judah and "all the the Trees" are the Nations. From the First World War the number of sovereign nations has more than doubled

    verse 30. "... ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand." The "summer" when all things blossom and bloom - the Millennial Kingdom

    verse 31. "... know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" - the Millennial Kingdom of Heavenly rule on earth

    verse 34. "... and so that day come upon you unawares." "That Day" the Day that is like a thousand years which contains God's wrath, God's judgement and God's subjugation of the nations and death - the Millennial Age

    verse 35. "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth." "The WHOLE earth" - a special snare that is universal like Noah's flood

    verse 36. "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." The verse cannot be taken any other way than ...
    • It is addressed to the DISCIPLES - "ye" are the ones who called Him "Master" in verse 7
    • It alludes to the Rapture. Our Lord Jesus will return AFTER the Great Tribulation (Matt.24:29-30). So to be able to "stand before the Son of man" to escape this UNIVERSAL judgement, means you stand in the clouds - for that is where the Son of man will be!
    • It alludes to paying a price. It is, "are you WORTHY or not"? The "escape" and the "standing before the Son of man" in the clouds has to be GAINED. Some Christians will stand before the Son of man BUT NOT ESCAPE! Revelation 7:9-14 shows, "... a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, ... and whence came they? ... These are they which came out of THE great tribulation, ... ."

    Luke 21:24 is the verse that ends the prophecy concerning AD 70 and points to the closing years of the age.
    Would it be correct to say there could not be a house for God to dwell in, relative to man, until the Man Jesus was raised from the dead?

  8. #38
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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You are correct. The Father dwells in Heaven, and as you pointed out, has a House, for earth, that both Moses and David had to copy. The Father required this "House", not to replace the one in Heaven, but so that He could live WITH Israel but be separated from their defiling flesh. But God's intent was always to live IN Man - hence the Tree of Life and the EATING of it. The fruit would ENTER a man and become organically one with the man. Israel had a legitimate House for God, but it was to be replaced by a "Spiritual House" and so, whichever way Israel had gone, the House at Jerusalem became outdated. God DID live in the Tabernacle, He DID live in Solomon's Temple, and our Lord Jesus DID grace Zerubbabel's Temple. But the rejection of Emmanuel (Jesus) and thus the rejection of God's appointed and anointed One, forced the Temple to become Israel "desolate" House.
    I kind of enjoyed this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    However, in that Israel rejected Christ, God's plan then is to keep the status quo. When Israel's chastisement is over and they are restored, a new Temple is build because their King, Emmanuel, will dwell with them again. Now, because Israel refused their Messiah they can (i) never get to the Tree of Life, and (ii) for those not resurrected, have the flesh as a hindrance. Added to this, the Nations are required to pay homage to Emmanuel in this time of Israe's restoration (Zech:14:16). So a House for Emmanuel in Jerusalem is to be made (i) again to maintain a separation from a Holy God and profane men , and (ii) to reflect the changes in this House because of Emmanuel's finished work in life and death. This is the Temple or "House" of the latter Chapters of Ezekiel (Ezek.40:5, 45-48, etc.). It is thus the House that the prophets predicted in Isaiah 2:2. "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."
    I understand your position, but personally, I see no reason to reapply this supposed "separation between God and the flesh?" Even today we are still "in the flesh," in a sense. And we are not separate from God by the walls of a temple! We are not actually "in the flesh" in terms of our spiritual living, but neither will Israel have to live carnal lives in the Millennial Age. So why would they need a temple to divide them from God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    As to "the Times of the Gentiles", we were discussing Luke 21. Your appreciation of it is that it addresses Jerusalem in AD 70. My appreciation of it is that a large portion of it concerns events leading up to AD 70, but that at a certain point the prophecy jumps to the events leading up to the end of the age and Christ's return. The verse that signals that AD 70 is left behind and the days of the end of the age come into view is verse 24. Verse 23 ends with "wrath upon THIS People". "This People" are Judah, and God's wrath descended on them in accordance with the Parable of the Wedding feast in Matthew 22:7. Then, verse 24 reads; "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
    Yes, I understand that you see this "leap" in the Olivet Discourse from 70 AD to the endtimes, because both are mentioned in the Discourse. I just happen to look at it differently. The focus, for me, is on the 70 AD event, whereas Christ's 2nd Coming becomes a backdrop to all of these events, warning of eternal judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    Verse 24 abruptly goes from AD 70 and the destruction, killing and dispersing of naughty Israel, to the time when the Gentiles will be banned from Jerusalem. "The Times of the Gentiles are the two times that God's people did not rule any part of the earth. The FIRST "time of the Gentiles" is from Adam to Moses. During this time God has no representation in the RULE of the earth. Then, from Joshua's conquest of Canaan, God's rule was exercised on earth, and for just under a thousand years, Israel was invincible. But, with the conquest of Nebuchadnezzar over Judah, and the subsequent destruction of God's House and the deportation of His people, God has no more representation on earth. In Daniel He is always "the God of heaven" - never "the God of heaven and EARTH". The SECOND time of the Gentiles had dawned and because Israel refused the Kingdom, this "time of the Gentiles" runs right up until the Beast - a Gentile king in Jerusalem.
    This is an interesting way of looking at it--sort of in a Dispensationalist way? God ruled in the Kingdom of Israel while they were under the Law. But when they rejected their God and His Christ, they lost the Kingdom. From thenceforth you see the Kingdom of God as only in heaven?

    I don't quite see it that way, although for Israel it apparently is. As far as the international Church goes, there have been a number of Christian Kingdoms in which God could dwell immanently within those kingdoms just as He did for Israel. And when those kingdoms went sideways, God likely retracted and returned to heaven, just as He had done with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    Luke 21:24, like many prophecies concerning Israel, jumps over the Church age. Because it is a prophecy concerning Israel, God does not consider them when they are under foreign rule or under chastisement. We have this again very clearly in Joel 2:28-32. This "jump" to the end of the age is obvious in Luke 21:24. It speaks of AD 70 and then jumps to the "END of the times of the Gentiles". After this verse, all the prophecy concerns the end of the age. Here are some examples;

    verse 25-26. "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring". These are phenomena predicted in Matthew 24:29 AFTER the Great Tribulation.

    verse 27. "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." Clearly Christ's Second Coming

    verse 28. "... for your redemption draweth nigh." Whose "redemption"? It is "YOUR redemption"! Who is "you"? The disciples! Are they not redeemed by the blood of Christ? Yes, but they also need to be "redeemed FROM the earth" to escape that which comes over "the WHOLE world" (Rev.14:3).

    verse 29-30. What is a "sign" of this time? "And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees - shoot forth;" The Fig Tree is Judah and "all the the Trees" are the Nations. From the First World War the number of sovereign nations has more than doubled

    verse 30. "... ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand." The "summer" when all things blossom and bloom - the Millennial Kingdom

    verse 31. "... know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" - the Millennial Kingdom of Heavenly rule on earth

    verse 34. "... and so that day come upon you unawares." "That Day" the Day that is like a thousand years which contains God's wrath, God's judgement and God's subjugation of the nations and death - the Millennial Age

    verse 35. "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth." "The WHOLE earth" - a special snare that is universal like Noah's flood

    verse 36. "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." The verse cannot be taken any other way than ...
    • It is addressed to the DISCIPLES - "ye" are the ones who called Him "Master" in verse 7
    • It alludes to the Rapture. Our Lord Jesus will return AFTER the Great Tribulation (Matt.24:29-30). So to be able to "stand before the Son of man" to escape this UNIVERSAL judgement, means you stand in the clouds - for that is where the Son of man will be!
    • It alludes to paying a price. It is, "are you WORTHY or not"? The "escape" and the "standing before the Son of man" in the clouds has to be GAINED. Some Christians will stand before the Son of man BUT NOT ESCAPE! Revelation 7:9-14 shows, "... a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, ... and whence came they? ... These are they which came out of THE great tribulation, ... ."

    Luke 21:24 is the verse that ends the prophecy concerning AD 70 and points to the closing years of the age.
    This part of your discussion would amount to yet another consideration of the Olivet Discourse, as well as other passages of Scripture. We can do that some other time....

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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    Would it be correct to say there could not be a house for God to dwell in, relative to man, until the Man Jesus was raised from the dead?
    Correct. The resurrection of our Lord Jesus was proof that all sin and sins are dealt with judicially. The Man Jesus has passed the Cherubim and the Fiery sword of Eden and taken the full brunt upon Himself. The way to the Tree of Life is now open, except that the Tree and its Fruit is replaced by a Lamb, it blood and its flesh - for blood needed to be shed.

    The Holy Spirit of God is dispensed in two ways:
    1. To give eternal LIFE, impart the divine nature and make men the sons of God. It is thus given INTERNALLY. So our Lord breathed it out and the disciples breathed it IN (Jn.20:22). In Ephesians 5:18 this sense is shown: "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit" Wine is IN a man, so also the Spirit. The Greek for "filled" is "pleroo" - to be full like a bottle. This "filling" in TIME is on resurrection day because "was not yet given" because our Lord had not yet died and risen (Jn.7:39). It was this HOUSE that our Lord Jesus alluded to in John 14 - not heaven.
    2. To give POWER for ministry. The Lord commanded His disciples to wait until Pentecost - 50 days after His resurrection and then gather at Jerusalem "FOR POWER" (Lk.24:49; Act.1:8). The sense of this word is shown in Exodus 35:31 long before resurrection day. "And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship" (for building the Tabernacle), in Acts 2:4; "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Here the Greek word is "playtho" - "to be FURNISHED outwardly" like a policeman puts on his uniform to direct traffic. The Holy Spirit for POWER was available for men (and Balaam's donkey) - Numbers 24:2.

  10. #40

    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Correct. The resurrection of our Lord Jesus was proof that all sin and sins are dealt with judicially. The Man Jesus has passed the Cherubim and the Fiery sword of Eden and taken the full brunt upon Himself. The way to the Tree of Life is now open, except that the Tree and its Fruit is replaced by a Lamb, it blood and its flesh - for blood needed to be shed.

    The Holy Spirit of God is dispensed in two ways:
    1. To give eternal LIFE, impart the divine nature and make men the sons of God. It is thus given INTERNALLY. So our Lord breathed it out and the disciples breathed it IN (Jn.20:22). In Ephesians 5:18 this sense is shown: "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit" Wine is IN a man, so also the Spirit. The Greek for "filled" is "pleroo" - to be full like a bottle. This "filling" in TIME is on resurrection day because "was not yet given" because our Lord had not yet died and risen (Jn.7:39). It was this HOUSE that our Lord Jesus alluded to in John 14 - not heaven.
    2. To give POWER for ministry. The Lord commanded His disciples to wait until Pentecost - 50 days after His resurrection and then gather at Jerusalem "FOR POWER" (Lk.24:49; Act.1:8). The sense of this word is shown in Exodus 35:31 long before resurrection day. "And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship" (for building the Tabernacle), in Acts 2:4; "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Here the Greek word is "playtho" - "to be FURNISHED outwardly" like a policeman puts on his uniform to direct traffic. The Holy Spirit for POWER was available for men (and Balaam's donkey) - Numbers 24:2.
    I agree. In 2 Cor 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. The selfsame thing is what Jesus has already received and refers back to chapter 4. I also agree with your John 14 reference.

    I go to prepare a place for you. Where?

    And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:27

    My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Psalms 139:15

    Is that when our place was prepared for us?

    V 16 ASV Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance;
    And in thy book they were all written,
    Even the days that were ordained for me,
    When as yet there was none of them.

    The body of Christ?

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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    ...

    I understand your position, but personally, I see no reason to reapply this supposed "separation between God and the flesh?" Even today we are still "in the flesh," in a sense. And we are not separate from God by the walls of a temple! We are not actually "in the flesh" in terms of our spiritual living, but neither will Israel have to live carnal lives in the Millennial Age. So why would they need a temple to divide them from God?
    A very astute observation on your part - for which a magnificently astute God has a sovereign solution. In 1st Corinthians 15:22 we have the term "IN Adam" and being IN Adam is cause of our physical death. WHY? because every human being who ever lived, except our Lord Jesus, was IN Adam's seed. When Adam was intrinsically corrupted by the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, his seed was too and so "death passed to all men" (Rom.5:12). Equally, the term "IN Christ" means that because the New Man has its origin IN Christ, everything that pertains to Christ is ours too - including His death. So to deal with the defiled flesh, God may count those IN Christ as having passed through death with Christ. And in this death the flesh is counted as dead. Romans 6:6 and Galatians 2:20 report severally;
    • 6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
    • 20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

    The issue of the defiling flesh did not go away, but it is sovereignly dealt with in DEATH - the death of Christ as it is applied to us because we are IN Him.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I understand that you see this "leap" in the Olivet Discourse from 70 AD to the endtimes, because both are mentioned in the Discourse. I just happen to look at it differently. The focus, for me, is on the 70 AD event, whereas Christ's 2nd Coming becomes a backdrop to all of these events, warning of eternal judgment.
    Though we disagree I respect your view.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is an interesting way of looking at it--sort of in a Dispensationalist way? God ruled in the Kingdom of Israel while they were under the Law. But when they rejected their God and His Christ, they lost the Kingdom. From thenceforth you see the Kingdom of God as only in heaven?
    More or less. Since Israel is a Nation (Gen.12:2) and has a King, it is a Kingdom. In Parable, a Kingdom is a Tree (Judges 9, Daniel 4, Ezek.31, etc.). Israel is a Vine, Judah is a Fig Tree, Babylon is a GREAT Tree. But Israel is OF the earth - as "sand of the sea-shore". So it is one earthly kingdom among many. The Kingdom of Heaven, depicted by the Olive Tree, encompasses the whole earth (Dan.2:35). That is why Israel will be grafted in again. So the Kingdom (out) of Heaven is Christ's rule as BOTH King of the Jews - the Kingdom of Israel, and King of kings - the whole earth.

    Just for the record, I never see, and scripture never sees, the Kingdom IN Heaven. Our Lord came to bring the Kingdom (OUT) OF Heaven (Matt.6:10). Man is made FROM the earth, nourished BY the earth FOR ruling the earth. Except for the short period at the end of this age when the Rapture takes place, man has nothing to do with the PLACE heaven. His job is to be Born from ABOVE (Lit.Gk.), be of the "heavenly calling" (Heb.3:1), have celestial glory in resurrection, and be part of the Heavenly Jerusalem. But in all of this his sphere of operations is earth. But I am aware that Christianity's cherished belief in going to heaven as a destiny is strongly engraved. I entertained it for my first 32 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't quite see it that way, although for Israel it apparently is. As far as the international Church goes, there have been a number of Christian Kingdoms in which God could dwell immanently within those kingdoms just as He did for Israel. And when those kingdoms went sideways, God likely retracted and returned to heaven, just as He had done with Israel?
    I see it differently. After the Reformation there were some nations that embraced Christian principles in their constitution and laws, but at no time did Christ rule. Christ, our Master, only gets His crown in Revelation Chapter 4, and since He has pre-eminence in ALL things, God would never make a Christian a king. That would trash Christ's preeminence. The closest any nation came to being Christian was probably Great Britain under Cromwell - and look at the UN-Christian shenanigans that went on there. The US has had a Free-Mason President since the beginning - except Lincoln. This is the "time of the Gentiles". Israel too never qualifies as a Theocratic entity since they continually broke the Law, and stood under a cloud of judgement since the Golden Calf.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This part of your discussion would amount to yet another consideration of the Olivet Discourse, as well as other passages of Scripture. We can do that some other time....
    Any time bro. God bless.

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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    I agree. In 2 Cor 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. The selfsame thing is what Jesus has already received and refers back to chapter 4. I also agree with your John 14 reference.

    I go to prepare a place for you. Where?

    And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:27

    My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Psalms 139:15

    Is that when our place was prepared for us?

    V 16 ASV Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance;
    And in thy book they were all written,
    Even the days that were ordained for me,
    When as yet there was none of them.

    The body of Christ?
    Since God put man in front of the Tree of Life, it was God's intention that man would become His Temple individually and His House corporately. John's gospel deals with this. It starts in Chapter one with Jesus appearing on the scene to create "Bethel" - the House of God (Jn.1:51; Gen.28) It continues in Chapter 2 with Jesus' Body - the Temple or House of God. Then we come to Chapter 14. Consider the grammar of John 14:1-3.

    1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    2 In my Father's house are many ABODES: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


    I have rendered "Mansions" with "abodes" as this is the literal Greek - the same word as in verse 23 - "... and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." Now, note what our Lord Jesus said EXACTLY. He said that He would go away. He said that this all these "abodes" in His Father's House needed some sort of preparation. He said He would, after this preparation, return to them. And finally says that where HE IS (present tense) the disciples would be when He returned. So first we have to find out what the House of God is in the Bible - interpreting scripture with scripture.

    The Father's House IS NEVER EVER Heaven. Of course He dwells there, but heaven is His THRONE not His House. God's House in the bible is either, (i) the Tabernacle of the wilderness, (ii) Solomon's Temple, (iii) Zerubbabel's Temple, (iv) Christ's Body and (v) the Church. To take the Father's House as heaven has not a singe shred of support.

    Next we must find out what "preparation" the many "Abodes" in God's House needed. Well, the many Abodes are US CHRISTIANS. We make up God's House (1st Tim.3:15). The preparation then is to put away sin and sins. This hindered us become the Home of God in Eden, and until sins were put away God could live WITH men as He did in Israel, but could never enter sinful man. So the "preparation" was Christ's death and resurrection. The going away was His death, descent to Hades, His resurrection and His ascension to His Father to present His blood in heaven. The coming again must be the evening after resurrection - for our Lord said that the women at the grave must not touch Him "Because He was not yet ASCENDED to His Father", but that evening He commanded His disciples to "handle Him" (Jn.20:17; Lk.24:39). Our Lord Jesus had GONE to death, GONE to Hades, GONE to the Father AND RETURNED all within 4 days.

    Next, we must discover where our Lord Jesus was at that moment of speaking. Remember it is "where I AM" - present tense. And we do not have to search far. In the VERY SAME CHAPTER, in verse 20 we read; "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." Where was He as He made the prediction? He was IN HIS FATHER and His FATHER IN HIM. Now the disciples receive the Holy Spirit and they ARE (present tense) IN Christ, and Christ was IN them and they had God IN THEM.

    Far from the superstitious beliefs of the majority of Christianity, John 14:1-3, read at many gravesides, DOES NOT TALK OF HEAVEN. It talks of our Lord GOING to death, GOING to Hades for three days and three nights, RISING to the surface of the earth and then GOING to the Father for approval for His blood (Heb.9:12), and then RETURNING to His disciples to make them "abodes" in the House of God.

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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Since God put man in front of the Tree of Life, it was God's intention that man would become His Temple individually and His House corporately. John's gospel deals with this. It starts in Chapter one with Jesus appearing on the scene to create "Bethel" - the House of God (Jn.1:51; Gen.28) It continues in Chapter 2 with Jesus' Body - the Temple or House of God. Then we come to Chapter 14. Consider the grammar of John 14:1-3.

    1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    2 In my Father's house are many ABODES: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


    I have rendered "Mansions" with "abodes" as this is the literal Greek - the same word as in verse 23 - "... and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." Now, note what our Lord Jesus said EXACTLY. He said that He would go away. He said that this all these "abodes" in His Father's House needed some sort of preparation. He said He would, after this preparation, return to them. And finally says that where HE IS (present tense) the disciples would be when He returned. So first we have to find out what the House of God is in the Bible - interpreting scripture with scripture.

    The Father's House IS NEVER EVER Heaven. Of course He dwells there, but heaven is His THRONE not His House. God's House in the bible is either, (i) the Tabernacle of the wilderness, (ii) Solomon's Temple, (iii) Zerubbabel's Temple, (iv) Christ's Body and (v) the Church. To take the Father's House as heaven has not a singe shred of support.

    Next we must find out what "preparation" the many "Abodes" in God's House needed. Well, the many Abodes are US CHRISTIANS. We make up God's House (1st Tim.3:15). The preparation then is to put away sin and sins. This hindered us become the Home of God in Eden, and until sins were put away God could live WITH men as He did in Israel, but could never enter sinful man. So the "preparation" was Christ's death and resurrection. The going away was His death, descent to Hades, His resurrection and His ascension to His Father to present His blood in heaven. The coming again must be the evening after resurrection - for our Lord said that the women at the grave must not touch Him "Because He was not yet ASCENDED to His Father", but that evening He commanded His disciples to "handle Him" (Jn.20:17; Lk.24:39). Our Lord Jesus had GONE to death, GONE to Hades, GONE to the Father AND RETURNED all within 4 days.

    Next, we must discover where our Lord Jesus was at that moment of speaking. Remember it is "where I AM" - present tense. And we do not have to search far. In the VERY SAME CHAPTER, in verse 20 we read; "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." Where was He as He made the prediction? He was IN HIS FATHER and His FATHER IN HIM. Now the disciples receive the Holy Spirit and they ARE (present tense) IN Christ, and Christ was IN them and they had God IN THEM.

    Far from the superstitious beliefs of the majority of Christianity, John 14:1-3, read at many gravesides, DOES NOT TALK OF HEAVEN. It talks of our Lord GOING to death, GOING to Hades for three days and three nights, RISING to the surface of the earth and then GOING to the Father for approval for His blood (Heb.9:12), and then RETURNING to His disciples to make them "abodes" in the House of God.
    What is the Father's House, is a question you didn't answer in my opinion, you seem to miss things in your explanation.

    I agree with you that the translation of the Greek word « mone » isn't necessarily « mansions » but « abodes », a place to reside or live. From John 14 it is clear the Lord isn't talking to the disciples alone, otherwise only the disciples would get holy spirit (v. 16) and this is not the case. In v. 12 He says « ... He that believeth into (eis) me ... » so the place He is going to prepare is for all who believe into Him. From Scripture we know there were thousands of believers in Israel according to Acts 4:4 even 5000 on one day. Did these all believe into Him?

    No, again Scripture proves how important it is that we rightly divide the word of truth. The Father's House the Lord is going to, to prepare a place, is not heaven, not « the » church, but the New Jerusalem which is still in heaven the coming aion through. Here we again come to the covenant op promises God made with Abraham, where God promised at least two groups. 1. as the sand on the shores of the seas. 2. as the stars of heaven, Gen. 22:17. The place the Lord is going to prepare is for the second group, after all Abraham looked for « ... a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God » Heb. 11:10. There isn't a city on the planet whose builder and maker is God, not until the New Jerusalem descends to earth at the beginning of the 5th aion.

    The Father's House is the same as Paul mentions in 2 Cor. 5:1 « ... a house not made with hands, aionic in the heavens », so during the whole coming aion as well, not endless because it will descend. The Lord says in Luke 20:34, 35 that those who are considered worthy to attain that aion (hence the fourth) and the resurrection from the dead will be equal to the angels, they also have a place in the NJ. Angels do not abode on earth if they obey God, think of the fallen angels that are now in the tartarus (2 Pet. 2:4).

    It is not us Christians as you believe, but those who are called « sons » in Scripture, and not all Christians are sons unfortunately, as plenty of threads on the forum show.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Revelation 17 tells who he is.
    The man that usurps Gods word and rewrites it to suit his fancy..
    A time will come when instead of shepherds feeding the sheep, the church will have clowns entertaining the goats.

    ~ Charles Spurgeon


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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?
    In my heart, there can be never be a greater fulfillment of the abomination that causes desolation than this.


    “they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him” John 19:6

    “He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD” Proverbs 29:27

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