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Thread: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

  1. #46
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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    What is the Father's House, is a question you didn't answer in my opinion, you seem to miss things in your explanation.

    I agree with you that the translation of the Greek word « mone » isn't necessarily « mansions » but « abodes », a place to reside or live. From John 14 it is clear the Lord isn't talking to the disciples alone, otherwise only the disciples would get holy spirit (v. 16) and this is not the case. In v. 12 He says « ... He that believeth into (eis) me ... » so the place He is going to prepare is for all who believe into Him. From Scripture we know there were thousands of believers in Israel according to Acts 4:4 even 5000 on one day. Did these all believe into Him?

    No, again Scripture proves how important it is that we rightly divide the word of truth. The Father's House the Lord is going to, to prepare a place, is not heaven, not « the » church, but the New Jerusalem which is still in heaven the coming aion through. Here we again come to the covenant op promises God made with Abraham, where God promised at least two groups. 1. as the sand on the shores of the seas. 2. as the stars of heaven, Gen. 22:17. The place the Lord is going to prepare is for the second group, after all Abraham looked for « ... a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God » Heb. 11:10. There isn't a city on the planet whose builder and maker is God, not until the New Jerusalem descends to earth at the beginning of the 5th aion.

    The Father's House is the same as Paul mentions in 2 Cor. 5:1 « ... a house not made with hands, aionic in the heavens », so during the whole coming aion as well, not endless because it will descend. The Lord says in Luke 20:34, 35 that those who are considered worthy to attain that aion (hence the fourth) and the resurrection from the dead will be equal to the angels, they also have a place in the NJ. Angels do not abode on earth if they obey God, think of the fallen angels that are now in the tartarus (2 Pet. 2:4).

    It is not us Christians as you believe, but those who are called « sons » in Scripture, and not all Christians are sons unfortunately, as plenty of threads on the forum show.

    Aristarkos
    Thank you for your reply. It is difficult to answer you as you did not address the whole posting with its detail of our Lord Jesus going away and coming again to make His disciples into the House of God. You address only what the Father's House is not. I admit that in my paragraph #4 I did not give scriptures, so here they are.

    The Tabernacle is Gods dwelling place
    Exodus 25:8; "And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them."
    Exodus 29:46; "And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God."

    Solomon's Temple is the House of the Lord
    In 1st Kings the phrase "the House of the Lord" is found 22 times in regard to the Temple Solomon built. The phrase "the House of the Lord" appears 234 times in the Old Testament.

    Zerubbabel's Temple is the House of the Lord
    John 2:14-16.
    14 "And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
    15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
    16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise."


    Christ was the Father's House
    John 2:19-21.
    19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    21 But he spake of the temple of his body."


    The Church is the house of God
    1 Timothy 3:15; "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

    The individual Christian is the Temple of God
    1st Corinthians 6:19; "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"
    2nd Corinthians 6:16; "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
    In both cases the text speaks of an individual.

    Would you explain why these direct statements as to what the House of God is should be discarded?

    The New Jerusalem is the "Tabernacle of God" (Rev.21:3) but it has a Temple. Revelation 21:22 says; "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." Would you care to explain your theory that New Jerusalem is a CITY without a Temple but has God and the Lamb as the Temple, and yet the CITY is the Tabernacle? Thanks.

  2. #47
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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I see it differently. After the Reformation there were some nations that embraced Christian principles in their constitution and laws, but at no time did Christ rule. Christ, our Master, only gets His crown in Revelation Chapter 4, and since He has pre-eminence in ALL things, God would never make a Christian a king. That would trash Christ's preeminence. The closest any nation came to being Christian was probably Great Britain under Cromwell - and look at the UN-Christian shenanigans that went on there. The US has had a Free-Mason President since the beginning - except Lincoln. This is the "time of the Gentiles". Israel too never qualifies as a Theocratic entity since they continually broke the Law, and stood under a cloud of judgement since the Golden Calf.
    This is probably more for a thread all to itself, but briefly, I've regularly seen a bias against Christian civilization that has permeated Western thought since the time of the Enlightenment, and even before. It really began in an anti-Catholic mentality in the Middle Ages, as popes were sometimes found to be corrupt and worldly. Eventually, the Protestant Reformation reacted strongly against Catholic oppression, and the result has been an anti-theocratic sentiment ever since.

    In the world of liberal theology, all kinds of questions were asked about the reliability of religious presumptions and biblical inspiration. There came to be an anti-supernatural bias, and a question about a priori religious presuppositions. In the end secular government was viewed as much a protection against religious oppression as against any other form of political oppression. It came to be assumed that religions should be dealt with as equals, rather than with the belief that Christianity is superior.

    But my view is different. I believe that what God did with Israel is the same that He has done with non-Hebrew civilization. Why should God act differently in our own time than He did in ancient Israel? If Christian civilization has not been perfect, neither was ancient Israel! To believe that somehow God's Kingdom indwelt ancient Israel, but not Christian kingdoms, therefore, makes no sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I see it differently. After the Reformation there were some nations that embraced Christian principles in their constitution and laws, but at no time did Christ rule. Christ, our Master, only gets His crown in Revelation Chapter 4, and since He has pre-eminence in ALL things, God would never make a Christian a king. That would trash Christ's preeminence. The closest any nation came to being Christian was probably Great Britain under Cromwell - and look at the UN-Christian shenanigans that went on there. The US has had a Free-Mason President since the beginning - except Lincoln. This is the "time of the Gentiles". Israel too never qualifies as a Theocratic entity since they continually broke the Law, and stood under a cloud of judgement since the Golden Calf.
    This is probably more for a thread all to itself, but briefly, I've regularly seen a bias against Christian civilization that has permeated Western thought since the time of the Enlightenment, and even before. It really began in an anti-Catholic mentality in the Middle Ages, as popes were sometimes found to be corrupt and worldly. Eventually, the Protestant Reformation reacted strongly against Catholic oppression, and the result has been an anti-theocratic sentiment ever since.

    In the world of liberal theology, all kinds of questions were asked about the reliability of religious presumptions and biblical inspiration. There came to be an anti-supernatural bias, and a question about a priori religious presuppositions. In the end secular government was viewed as much a protection against religious oppression as against any other form of political oppression. It came to be assumed that religions should be dealt with as equals, rather than with the belief that Christianity is superior.

    But my view is different. I believe that what God did with Israel is the same that He has done with non-Hebrew civilization. Why should God act differently in our own time than He did in ancient Israel? If Christian civilization has not been perfect, neither was ancient Israel! To believe that somehow God's Kingdom indwelt ancient Israel, but not Christian kingdoms, therefore, makes no sense to me.

  3. #48
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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is probably more for a thread all to itself, but briefly, I've regularly seen a bias against Christian civilization that has permeated Western thought since the time of the Enlightenment, and even before. It really began in an anti-Catholic mentality in the Middle Ages, as popes were sometimes found to be corrupt and worldly. Eventually, the Protestant Reformation reacted strongly against Catholic oppression, and the result has been an anti-theocratic sentiment ever since.

    In the world of liberal theology, all kinds of questions were asked about the reliability of religious presumptions and biblical inspiration. There came to be an anti-supernatural bias, and a question about a priori religious presuppositions. In the end secular government was viewed as much a protection against religious oppression as against any other form of political oppression. It came to be assumed that religions should be dealt with as equals, rather than with the belief that Christianity is superior.

    But my view is different. I believe that what God did with Israel is the same that He has done with non-Hebrew civilization. Why should God act differently in our own time than He did in ancient Israel? If Christian civilization has not been perfect, neither was ancient Israel! To believe that somehow God's Kingdom indwelt ancient Israel, but not Christian kingdoms, therefore, makes no sense to me.
    Yeah. We are already far off the Original Thread. I note your thoughts but beg to bow out - this time

  4. #49
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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Yeah. We are already far off the Original Thread. I note your thoughts but beg to bow out - this time
    Yea, I feel like I'm getting repetitive...literally! (Maybe one day we will get the edit function back?)

  5. #50

    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Well, you know we disagree on this, but you have some good points that I would agree with. Yes, you note an important transition in the history of Zerubbabel's temple, when the Jews turned from Jesus and Jesus began to call this house "your house," and not his "Father's house."

    But I think Jesus wasn't calling the temple his "Father's house" either, although it certainly was the "house of God," and a "house of prayer." That's because his Father's house was a temple in heaven, and not a physical temple at all. It was the place where God chooses to dwell in and with His people. And so, the temple of Herod, though considered close to being rejected by God, was not actually rejected by God until Jesus died.

    We know this because Jesus reaffirmed the practice of temple law up until his death when he said, "I came to fulfill the Law." And so, even when Jesus referred to the temple as "your house," it still remained God's house. But I agree there was this period of transition, from God's house to "your house." It just wasn't complete until Jesus died.

    I also agree that the glory that came into Zerubbabel's temple was Jesus' glory. I don't think the Scriptures are saying that Jesus would actually enter into the temple, as a man. Rather, the glory of that temple was Jesus himself, whether or not he actually entered into the holy of holies physically. Since he was not a priest after the Levitical order he could only enter into the temple in his glory, and not as an unglorified man.

    I don't believe I force any interpretation upon Dan 9 and Matt 24/Luke 21. They all refer to the 70 Weeks, at the end of which Messiah is killed, and the temple destroyed. I have little doubt that the "Abomination of Desolation" is the encirclement of Jerusalem by Roman troops, who are bent on imposing emperor worship over Jewish symbols of worship, because of the Jewish rebellion against them. Indeed, the Olivet Discourse is all about prophesying the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

    Therefore, the "desolation" of the temple took place when Roman troops encircled Jerusalem, and ultimately entered into Jerusalem and destroyed the temple. It was about the "destruction" of the temple, and not simply about God's abandonment of the temple worship.
    It is about true worship, which the Jews thought was embodied in just the temple and forgot who it pointed to, deserving of worship whose presence was now in the flesh. It also is about worship at the end, at His second coming. Now take a closer look at what Christ was telling the disciples.

    Matt 24:13-15
    "13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand"

    At the time of the destruction if Israel, and their temple, the gospel of the kingdom had nowhere near reached all the world, and all the nations. The prediction of the end coming is in relation to the global context of verse 14. On the other hand, it had a very real application for the Christians living during the time of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Do you think it possible, that Jesus had enough foresight to address both time periods with one prophecy? Let’s look at the question Jesus was answering.

    Matt 24:1-3
    "1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

    What do you know, the question Jesus was answering was dual in nature. When will the temple be destroyed, and what will be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world? Jesus was answering both. The dual prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation is also tied to both. There are many dual prophecies in the bible. They have a literal and local fulfillment usually concerning literal Israel and the old covenant, and a spiritual and global fulfillment concerning spiritual Israel and the new covenant.

    When literal Rome set up it’s standard in literal Jerusalem, and destroyed the literal temple, and city, and people, the prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation was literally fulfilled. Since then however, the development of spiritual Rome or antichrist power, has brought about the attack of spiritual Israel, the spiritual temple and people of God. When it had done so, and when this spiritual Rome has set up her spiritual standard in the place of God’s in all the world, then those who worship the beast and his image, and those who truly worship the God of scripture will be the only two peoples on this earth. The harvests of this world will be ripe, and God will send forth His reapers.

    Rev 14:14-20
    "14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
    15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
    16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
    17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
    18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
    19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
    20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

    It is the message given in verses 6-13 of Rev. 14 that prepares the world to be reaped. That message includes the everlasting gospel, the hour of God’s judgment, warning against Babylon, and against worshipping the beast. None of these warnings were any where near given to all the world at, or before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

    The literal and local fulfillment of the prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation was fulfilled by the literal armies of literal Rome at literal Jerusalem, by the destruction of the same, and the literal temple. Which temple by the way, had already been desolate, that is void of God’s presence, since the crucifixion of Christ. The spiritual fulfillment of the prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation, concerns the spiritual Israel, and Rome of the new covenant era. It is about how the worship has again been turned into a abomination by spiritual Israel, or the church which follows tradition yet again and do not follow the true worship which God deserves.

  6. #51

    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    The man that usurps Gods word and rewrites it to suit his fancy..
    This has happened, Gods Word has been replaced by mans tradition and true worship been rewritten by man 'to suit his fancy', as you say. The worship of the early church has been replaced by a apostate church and pagan rites and ceremonies and idol worship brought into the church, and everyone has been told that Gods commandments have been done away with, and it says that it has the authority to change them and can command as if Christ on earth over spiritual matters and over kings and leaders. Look closely, discern what scripture and history shows...

  7. #52

    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is probably more for a thread all to itself, but briefly, I've regularly seen a bias against Christian civilization that has permeated Western thought since the time of the Enlightenment, and even before. It really began in an anti-Catholic mentality in the Middle Ages, as popes were sometimes found to be corrupt and worldly. Eventually, the Protestant Reformation reacted strongly against Catholic oppression, and the result has been an anti-theocratic sentiment ever since.

    In the world of liberal theology, all kinds of questions were asked about the reliability of religious presumptions and biblical inspiration. There came to be an anti-supernatural bias, and a question about a priori religious presuppositions. In the end secular government was viewed as much a protection against religious oppression as against any other form of political oppression. It came to be assumed that religions should be dealt with as equals, rather than with the belief that Christianity is superior.

    But my view is different. I believe that what God did with Israel is the same that He has done with non-Hebrew civilization. Why should God act differently in our own time than He did in ancient Israel? If Christian civilization has not been perfect, neither was ancient Israel! To believe that somehow God's Kingdom indwelt ancient Israel, but not Christian kingdoms, therefore, makes no sense to me.



    This is probably more for a thread all to itself, but briefly, I've regularly seen a bias against Christian civilization that has permeated Western thought since the time of the Enlightenment, and even before. It really began in an anti-Catholic mentality in the Middle Ages, as popes were sometimes found to be corrupt and worldly. Eventually, the Protestant Reformation reacted strongly against Catholic oppression, and the result has been an anti-theocratic sentiment ever since.

    In the world of liberal theology, all kinds of questions were asked about the reliability of religious presumptions and biblical inspiration. There came to be an anti-supernatural bias, and a question about a priori religious presuppositions. In the end secular government was viewed as much a protection against religious oppression as against any other form of political oppression. It came to be assumed that religions should be dealt with as equals, rather than with the belief that Christianity is superior.

    But my view is different. I believe that what God did with Israel is the same that He has done with non-Hebrew civilization. Why should God act differently in our own time than He did in ancient Israel? If Christian civilization has not been perfect, neither was ancient Israel! To believe that somehow God's Kingdom indwelt ancient Israel, but not Christian kingdoms, therefore, makes no sense to me.
    And what happened to the Jews in ancient Israel, so it will be with Christians. What happened to Jerusalem was a type of what will happen to the entire world when Christ returns. There were many in Jerusalem who considered themselves God's people, and others just followed what the priest and leaders said. Only those though, who followed God's instructions through His Son, left the city before it was destroyed. Those who remained inside were destroyed with it.

    So it will be when Christ returns. Many in the world consider themselves to be God's people, and many don't care. Only those though, who have followed God's instructions for His people through His Son, will be removed from this world and taken to heaven by Him when it is destroyed. God has many times used the armies of nations as instruments of judgment upon the wicked, but in the end, He will personally attend to the same.

    2 Pet 3:9-13
    "9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

    Rev 19:11-21
    "11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
    18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

  8. #53
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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by hobie View Post
    It is about true worship, which the Jews thought was embodied in just the temple and forgot who it pointed to, deserving of worship whose presence was now in the flesh. It also is about worship at the end, at His second coming. Now take a closer look at what Christ was telling the disciples.

    Matt 24:13-15
    "13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand"

    At the time of the destruction if Israel, and their temple, the gospel of the kingdom had nowhere near reached all the world, and all the nations. The prediction of the end coming is in relation to the global context of verse 14. On the other hand, it had a very real application for the Christians living during the time of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Do you think it possible, that Jesus had enough foresight to address both time periods with one prophecy? Let’s look at the question Jesus was answering.

    Matt 24:1-3
    "1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

    What do you know, the question Jesus was answering was dual in nature. When will the temple be destroyed, and what will be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world? Jesus was answering both. The dual prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation is also tied to both. There are many dual prophecies in the bible. They have a literal and local fulfillment usually concerning literal Israel and the old covenant, and a spiritual and global fulfillment concerning spiritual Israel and the new covenant.

    When literal Rome set up it’s standard in literal Jerusalem, and destroyed the literal temple, and city, and people, the prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation was literally fulfilled. Since then however, the development of spiritual Rome or antichrist power, has brought about the attack of spiritual Israel, the spiritual temple and people of God. When it had done so, and when this spiritual Rome has set up her spiritual standard in the place of God’s in all the world, then those who worship the beast and his image, and those who truly worship the God of scripture will be the only two peoples on this earth. The harvests of this world will be ripe, and God will send forth His reapers.

    Rev 14:14-20
    "14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
    15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
    16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
    17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
    18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
    19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
    20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

    It is the message given in verses 6-13 of Rev. 14 that prepares the world to be reaped. That message includes the everlasting gospel, the hour of God’s judgment, warning against Babylon, and against worshipping the beast. None of these warnings were any where near given to all the world at, or before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

    The literal and local fulfillment of the prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation was fulfilled by the literal armies of literal Rome at literal Jerusalem, by the destruction of the same, and the literal temple. Which temple by the way, had already been desolate, that is void of God’s presence, since the crucifixion of Christ. The spiritual fulfillment of the prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation, concerns the spiritual Israel, and Rome of the new covenant era. It is about how the worship has again been turned into a abomination by spiritual Israel, or the church which follows tradition yet again and do not follow the true worship which God deserves.
    Yes, I've heard these kinds of interpretations before, with their physical/spiritual dual application. There may be some warrant to it. However, my focus is always: What is the literal meaning of the passage? So I don't rely on the supposed physical/spiritual duality--it isn't needed. It may be interesting, but it isn't needed, and it isn't warranted. The passage stands on its own without a "spiritual interpretation."

    Yes, we can "spiritually " apply messages given to Israel also to the international Church, because spiritually, the same truths apply to the Church as applied to Israel. However, when interpreting Scriptures and prophecies we have to focus on the literal meaning, or we will end up in utter confusion.

    The Olivet Discourse was *not* dually applied to the apostles' generation and the endtime generation. On the contrary, Jesus was asked about the endtimes only because his call for the destruction of Jerusalem begged the question of when Israel would be restored. That restoration would have to take place, according to biblical prophecy, in the last days.

    The Abomination of Desolation was the destruction of the temple by the Roman Army. They appeared outside the walls, and initially withdrew, giving opportunity for Christians to escape to the hills. This sign was given by Jesus for this express purpose, to enable his followers to escape a judgment that was meant not for them but for rebellious Jews.

    The prophecy of the Olivet Discourse was a prophecy of the future of Israel, and not for the world, nor for the international Church. Later, what Jesus foretold concerning Israel could be applied, spiritually, to the Church, but only because it was meant to be applied, in principle, to the whole Church later. In this particular prophecy the nation of Israel was in focus, because at that time the international Church had not yet been initiated.

    The proclamation of the gospel to all nations did not await the present time. The message was to immediately go out to all the earth because after Jesus rose from the dead the gospel came to apply to all nations, and not just to Israel. And so, the international proclamation of the gospel was not something that required 2000 years to reach every native. Rather, the need was to *immediately* make it known that the gospel applied not just to Jews but to all ethnic groups.

  9. #54

    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I've heard these kinds of interpretations before, with their physical/spiritual dual application. There may be some warrant to it. However, my focus is always: What is the literal meaning of the passage? So I don't rely on the supposed physical/spiritual duality--it isn't needed. It may be interesting, but it isn't needed, and it isn't warranted. The passage stands on its own without a "spiritual interpretation."

    Yes, we can "spiritually " apply messages given to Israel also to the international Church, because spiritually, the same truths apply to the Church as applied to Israel. However, when interpreting Scriptures and prophecies we have to focus on the literal meaning, or we will end up in utter confusion.

    The Olivet Discourse was *not* dually applied to the apostles' generation and the endtime generation. On the contrary, Jesus was asked about the endtimes only because his call for the destruction of Jerusalem begged the question of when Israel would be restored. That restoration would have to take place, according to biblical prophecy, in the last days.

    The Abomination of Desolation was the destruction of the temple by the Roman Army. They appeared outside the walls, and initially withdrew, giving opportunity for Christians to escape to the hills. This sign was given by Jesus for this express purpose, to enable his followers to escape a judgment that was meant not for them but for rebellious Jews.

    The prophecy of the Olivet Discourse was a prophecy of the future of Israel, and not for the world, nor for the international Church. Later, what Jesus foretold concerning Israel could be applied, spiritually, to the Church, but only because it was meant to be applied, in principle, to the whole Church later. In this particular prophecy the nation of Israel was in focus, because at that time the international Church had not yet been initiated.

    The proclamation of the gospel to all nations did not await the present time. The message was to immediately go out to all the earth because after Jesus rose from the dead the gospel came to apply to all nations, and not just to Israel. And so, the international proclamation of the gospel was not something that required 2000 years to reach every native. Rather, the need was to *immediately* make it known that the gospel applied not just to Jews but to all ethnic groups.
    But it has a spiritual application as scripture makes clear...

    Hebrews 8:1-2
    "1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
    2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man."

    Hebrews 8:5-6
    "5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
    6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."

    Exodus 25:40
    "40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount."

    Although the establishment of the new covenant put an end to the earthly temple services and sacrifices, it did not do away with the sacrificial system it was patterned on. That which was typical and literal was replaced with that which was and is antitypical and spiritual. In relation to the establishment of the new covenant, Christ fulfilled the things that the old covenant pointed to and established the new. That which was and is established by the new covenant, is always of a spiritual nature. The literal types and services of the old being fulfilled by the reality of the new, the Lord Jesus Christ and Him crucified, established the spiritual reality of the new covenant. That which is literal and of this world is that which is fulfilled and passing away. On the other hand, that which is spiritual, being established in Christ, is that which is real and eternal. So also it is with the temple and its services. Although the literal temple on earth no longer exists, the heavenly temple and its services have been established in Christ.

    Hebrews 7:28
    "28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore."

    Hebrews 9:11-15
    "11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

    Christ is our High Priest. He is ministering for us in the temple in heaven. This temple is the one that the Lord pitched and not man. The temple must be where the High Priest of the new covenant is, and that is in heaven. Is there a literal temple in heaven? I believe so, and apparently so did the writer of the book of Hebrews. However, to argue over weather or not the temple in heaven is literal, would be missing the point. The scriptures are very clear, Christ is our High Priest in heaven. He is performing the High Priestly ministry on our behalf before God the Father in heaven. That is to say, He ever lives to make intercession for us.
    The temple of the new covenant is not bound to a single place or spot on earth or in heaven. The temple of the new covenant is on earth and in heaven. The scriptures are clear on this point. The spiritual nature of the temple and its services in the new covenant era make this necessary. The temple is in heaven where Christ is ministering for us, and yet the body of Christ, which is His people, is here on earth, and also considered His temple. There is no separating the two. Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary has everything to do with the establishment of His temple here on earth, His people. We are the temple of God, both corporately and individually. The temple in heaven where Christ ministers, has everything to do with the establishment of His temple here on earth, which is us, in and through the Lord Jesus Christ.

  10. #55
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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thank you for your reply. It is difficult to answer you as you did not address the whole posting with its detail of our Lord Jesus going away and coming again to make His disciples into the House of God. You address only what the Father's House is not. I admit that in my paragraph #4 I did not give scriptures, so here they are.
    Please read well Walls, my post clearly states what it is.

    The Tabernacle is Gods dwelling place
    Exodus 25:8; "And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them."
    Exodus 29:46; "And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God."
    The tabernacle is not « my Father's house ».

    Solomon's Temple is the House of the Lord
    In 1st Kings the phrase "the House of the Lord" is found 22 times in regard to the Temple Solomon built. The phrase "the House of the Lord" appears 234 times in the Old Testament.
    This is also not « my Father's house ».

    Zerubbabel's Temple is the House of the Lord
    John 2:14-16.
    14 "And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
    15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
    16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise."
    Also not « my Father's house ».

    Christ was the Father's House
    John 2:19-21.
    19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    21 But he spake of the temple of his body."
    Christ — the Temple — is not « my Father's house ».

    The Church is the house of God
    1 Timothy 3:15; "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."
    Which is also not « my Father's house ».

    The individual Christian is the Temple of God
    1st Corinthians 6:19; "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"
    2nd Corinthians 6:16; "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
    In both cases the text speaks of an individual.
    And this also is not « my Father's house ».

    Would you explain why these direct statements as to what the House of God is should be discarded?
    I will below.

    The New Jerusalem is the "Tabernacle of God" (Rev.21:3) but it has a Temple. Revelation 21:22 says; "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." Would you care to explain your theory that New Jerusalem is a CITY without a Temple but has God and the Lamb as the Temple, and yet the CITY is the Tabernacle? Thanks.
    You are aware you are contradicting yourself? First you say « the New Jerusalem is the "Tabernacle of God" (Rev.21:3) but it has a Temple », then you say « And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it ». The New Jerusalem doesn't have a temple, this is no longer necessary in the 5th aion, then God tabernacles with men.

    The « my Father's house » is not on earth, because the Lord was already on earth and He went to prepare them space to live. In v. 4 He says « ... whither I go ye know... », and v. 5 states « ... we know not whither thou goest ... », since all of this took place in Israel the Lord didn't say He was going to the promised land (Israel) nor to Jerusalem, while the Lord ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9) and that is where He is going to prepare a place. The same location Abraham looked forward to Heb. 11:10.

    Now that we have established « my Father's house » is not on earth it cannot be any of the things you've said above. The church of God is built up of believing men who was promised to become like the angels when the Lord returns. Are those who are blessed with Abraham (therefore sons) going to live in the church of God of which Christ is going to prepare them a place to abode? How can that be? The church of God doesn't exist at this moment, since Israel is still Lo-Ammi and when it did it was on earth.

    The only thing that is now and the coming aion in heaven is the New Jerusalem and that is where Christ is going to prepare them a place to abode, it doesn't say Christ is going to build the New Jerusalem by the way, it is already there.

    Aristarkos

  11. #56

    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    We need to dig a little and understand what Christ tells us...

    John 2:19-22
    "19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three
    days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in
    building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said."

    In referring to the temple at Jerusalem, Christ words,"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up," had a deeper meaning than the hearers perceived. He was the foundation and life of the temple and it services were typical of the sacrifice of the Son of God. The priesthood was established to represent the meditorial character and work of Christ. The entire plan of sacrificial worship was a foreshadowing of the Savior's death to redeem the world. Since the whole sacrificial system was symbolical of Christ, it had no value apart from Him. When the Jews rejected Christ, they rejected all that gave significance to the temple and its services. The sacredness had gone and was no more, and the temple was doomed to destruction. From that day sacrificial offerings and the service connected with them were meaningless as they did not express faith in Jesus. In putting Christ to death, the Jews virtually destroyed their temple. When Christ was crucified, the inner veil of the temple was rent apart from top to bottom, signifying that the great final sacrifice had been made by the lamb of God and He fulfilled through His sacrifice what allows us the choice to be redeemed and have eternal life. That which was promised from the Garden of Eden...

    Genesis 3:15
    "15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

    Romans 16:20
    "20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen."

  12. #57

    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    […] because his call for the destruction of Jerusalem begged the question of when Israel would be restored. That restoration would have to take place, according to biblical prophecy, in the last days.
    Even though you and I disagree on the Olivet Discourse and the ID of the AOD ( ) [you believe all of the Olivet Discourse and the AOD were about the 70ad events, whereas I believe only the portion of the Olivet Discourse about 70ad events in in Lk21:12-24a, and that the rest of the Olivet Discourse is all "far-future" to that (and future to our Rapture, with the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular; 1Th5:2-3/Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis- 'A CERTAIN ONE'"]" coming/starting AFTER our Departure/Rapture)], despite our differences there, you and I agree that God still has future plans for Israel (surrounding His Second Coming to the earth, yet future).
    I mean, even Jesus told the 12 that they will "sit on twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel." (Lk22:30,16,18 and Matt19:28 [see also Matt25:31-34 for ITS TIMING, aka "when"]).

    And I believe the following article (which I've posted before) gives some good reason for consistently viewing it this way. Here are just a couple points taken from it (more at link):

    [quoting]

    "33. It ignores the life-setting of the disciples’ question in Acts 1:6 in the context of their already having had forty days teaching about the very thing they asked about (“the kingdom” – see Acts 1:3). This reflects badly on the clarity of the Risen Lord’s teaching about the kingdom. But the tenacity with which these disciples still clung to literal fulfillments would also prove the validity of #’s 23, 26, 27, 28 & 32 above.

    "34. This resistance to the clear expectation of the disciples also ignores the question of the disciples, which was about the timing of the restoration of the kingdom to Israel, not its nature."

    -- Paul Martin Henebury, "Forty Reasons for Not Reinterpreting the OT by the NT: The Last Twenty"

    https://sharperiron.org/article/fort...nt-last-twenty

    [end quoting; bold and underline mine]

  13. #58

    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    You are just stating private interpretations, look at the prophecy of Christ as it was clear what would happen..
    Luke 19:43

    "43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,"

    The Romans as was their usual practice for siege warfare dug a trench around the city to keep anyone from escaping. Now how bad was it, well historian Josephus tells how Roman soldiers "went in numbers into the lanes of the city, with their swords drawn, they slew those whom they overtook, without mercy, and set fire to the houses wither the Jews were fled, and burnt every soul in them, and laid waste a great many of the rest; and when they were come to the houses to plunder them, they found in them entire families of dead men, and the upper rooms full of dead corpses, that is of such as died by the famine; they then stood in horror at this sight, and went out without touching anything. But although they had this commiseration for such as were destroyed in that manner, yet had they not the same for those that were still alive, but they ran every one through whom they met with, and obstructed the very lanes with their dead bodies, and made the whole city run down with blood, to such a degree indeed that the fire of many houses was quenched with these men's blood." (The Wars Of The Jews, 6:8:5).


    But the Christians didn't die, why because they knew it was coming and heeded Christs word. Listen to how exact Jesus laid out what was to happen. The Roman general Vespasian besieged Jerusalem during the Jewish rebellion, but emperor Nero committed suicide and plunged Rome into a year of civil war and he had to leave. But now what Josephus tells us, "And now Vespasian had fortified all the places round about Jerusalem, and erected citadels at Jericho and Adida, and placed garrisons in them both And now the war having gone through all the mountainous country, and all the plain country also, those that were at Jerusalem were deprived of the liberty of going out of the city; Now as Vespasian was returned to Caesarea, and was getting ready, with all his army to march directly to Jerusalem, he was informed that Nero was dead Wherefore Vespasian put off at first his expedition against Jerusalem, and stood waiting whither the empire would be transferred after the death of Nero the Roman empire being then in a fluctuating condition, and did not go on with the expedition against the Jews" (The Wars Of The Jews, 4:9:1, 2).

    When the legions of Rome finally got to Jerusalem they camped at the Mount of Olives (The Wars Of The Jews, 5:2:3). Immediately after their arrival a trench was cast about Jerusalem. A nine mile long wall was constructed in three days that totally enclosed the city (The Wars Of The Jews, 5:12:2).

    This gave clear warning to the Christians and they fled in time before Titus came back. Now Josephus had acted as a mediator for the Romans and, when negotiations failed, witnessed the siege and aftermath. He wrote:

    Now as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done), [Titus] Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and Temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as they were of the greatest eminence; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison [in the Upper City], as were the towers [the three forts] also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall [surrounding Jerusalem], it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it [Jerusalem] had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind.

    And truly, the very view itself was a melancholy thing; for those places which were adorned with trees and pleasant gardens, were now become desolate country every way, and its trees were all cut down. Nor could any foreigner that had formerly seen Judaea and the most beautiful suburbs of the city, and now saw it as a desert, but lament and mourn sadly at so great a change. For the war had laid all signs of beauty quite waste. Nor had anyone who had known the place before, had come on a sudden to it now, would he have known it again. But though he [a foreigner] were at the city itself, yet would he have inquired for it.

    Jesus made clear what was to occur, Matthew 24:2..

    "2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

    Titus, the Roman general, did not want to destroy the temple. In a speech to the Jewish defenders of the city he said, "I appeal to my own army, and the Jews that are now with me, and even to you yourselves, that I do not force you to defile this sanctuary; and if you will but change the place whereon you will fight, no Roman shall either come near your sanctuary, or offer any affront to it; nay, I will endeavor to preserve you your holy house, whether you will or not." (The Wars Of The Jews, 6:2:4).

    However, after the city was taken, he "gave order that they should now demolish the entire city and temple but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited." (The Wars Of The Jews, 7:1:1).

    The prophecy of Micah of the desolation applies, Micah 3:12...

    "12 Therefore because of you Zion shall be plowed like a field, Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins, and the mountain of the temple like the bare hills of the forest".

    The abominations brought into the Christian church are basically the very same practices of paganism for which ancient Jerusalem was destroyed. It doesn't take a bible scholar to see how idol worship, mary worship, and sun worship were introduced to Christianity during the Dark Ages. Most of these abominations are still with us in the form of statues, candles for the saints, rosary beads, and worship from traditions of man.

    When the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem, it was a sign that most of the city's leaders and inhabitants had passed the limit of Gods grace and had filled their cup of iniquity. To the Christians living in the city, this was to be a sign that Jerusalem would soon suffer God's judgment. At their first opportunity to leave they did so, and the Christians were able to escape the death and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. With the abominations that are happening today in the churches with even worse than pagans and their false worship being allowed, the iniquity of modern Babylon which is the antichrist power, has reached its limit. We will see God's judgment and His wrath because of the false worship, as we come to the end.

    Revelation 14:8

    "8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

    Just as God gave the early Christians a sign of when to flee Jerusalem, He has made it possible for every Christian to know when this world's time is nearing its close. As the approach of Roman armies was a sign to the disciples of the impending destruction of Jerusalem, so may this apostasy that reaches the same state of abomination be a sign to us that the limit of God's forbearance and mercy is at its end. When the churches have apostatized in their abominations to such a degree that they enact legislation of a religious law which displaces God's law and enforces traditions of man, we can know the time of the end is come.

  14. #59
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    Re: What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by hobie View Post
    But it has a spiritual application as scripture makes clear...

    Hebrews 8:1-2
    "1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
    2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man."

    Hebrews 8:5-6
    "5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
    6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."

    Exodus 25:40
    "40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount."

    Although the establishment of the new covenant put an end to the earthly temple services and sacrifices, it did not do away with the sacrificial system it was patterned on. That which was typical and literal was replaced with that which was and is antitypical and spiritual. In relation to the establishment of the new covenant, Christ fulfilled the things that the old covenant pointed to and established the new. That which was and is established by the new covenant, is always of a spiritual nature. The literal types and services of the old being fulfilled by the reality of the new, the Lord Jesus Christ and Him crucified, established the spiritual reality of the new covenant. That which is literal and of this world is that which is fulfilled and passing away. On the other hand, that which is spiritual, being established in Christ, is that which is real and eternal. So also it is with the temple and its services. Although the literal temple on earth no longer exists, the heavenly temple and its services have been established in Christ.

    Hebrews 7:28
    "28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore."

    Hebrews 9:11-15
    "11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

    Christ is our High Priest. He is ministering for us in the temple in heaven. This temple is the one that the Lord pitched and not man. The temple must be where the High Priest of the new covenant is, and that is in heaven. Is there a literal temple in heaven? I believe so, and apparently so did the writer of the book of Hebrews. However, to argue over weather or not the temple in heaven is literal, would be missing the point. The scriptures are very clear, Christ is our High Priest in heaven. He is performing the High Priestly ministry on our behalf before God the Father in heaven. That is to say, He ever lives to make intercession for us.
    The temple of the new covenant is not bound to a single place or spot on earth or in heaven. The temple of the new covenant is on earth and in heaven. The scriptures are clear on this point. The spiritual nature of the temple and its services in the new covenant era make this necessary. The temple is in heaven where Christ is ministering for us, and yet the body of Christ, which is His people, is here on earth, and also considered His temple. There is no separating the two. Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary has everything to do with the establishment of His temple here on earth, His people. We are the temple of God, both corporately and individually. The temple in heaven where Christ ministers, has everything to do with the establishment of His temple here on earth, which is us, in and through the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Oh I certainly agree with this much, and it is very well said. I was only addressing a duality as it concerned the Olivet Discourse and the major prophecy being predicted there, namely the AoD.

    That had to be either the Roman invasion 66-70 AD or the Antichrist--not both. That would be "dual interpretation" and not multiple or dual interpretations. An interpretation has only one possible interpretation. But some truths can be applied in a number of different contexts, when the circumstances are the same.

    So I would say that the AoD is only the Roman invasion, and not Antichrist--one interpretation only. But a similar pattern may exist from Antiochus 4 to the Roman invasion to the Antichrist. These are similar truths, but not "dual interpretations."

    Both Antiochus 4 and the Roman invasion are called AoDs. But the Antichrist is not called an AoD, in my view.

    Nevertheless, I do think that Antiochus 4 and the Roman invasion provide a pattern that in some way applies to the Antichrist. I do believe they in a sense "foreshadow" the Antichrist.

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