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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #136
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post

    34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
    Yes that shows the righteous and unrighteous being judged.

    Psa 96:11 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.
    Psa 96:12 Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
    Psa 96:13 Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.
    Psa 97:1 The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.
    Psa 97:2 Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.
    Psa 97:3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.




    Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
    Ecc 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
    Ecc 3:16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
    Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.



    Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
    Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
    Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
    Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.



    Act_10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.


    2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.



    Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


    1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  2. #137
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yes that shows the righteous and unrighteous being judged.

    Psa 96:11 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.
    Psa 96:12 Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
    Psa 96:13 Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.
    Psa 97:1 The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.
    Psa 97:2 Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.
    Psa 97:3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.




    Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
    Ecc 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
    Ecc 3:16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
    Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.



    Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
    Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
    Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
    Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.



    Act_10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.


    2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.



    Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


    1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
    Nice scriptures.

    Regarding 1Pet 4:17...,
    The time is now for not coming into the judgment of the second death through our faith in the Gospel. We know what the end will be for those who reject it.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  3. #138
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Nice scriptures.

    Regarding 1Pet 4:17...,
    The time is now for not coming into the judgment of the second death through our faith in the Gospel. We know what the end will be for those who reject it.
    I would say saved Christians are in the right "line" to be judged to eternal life but that judgment hasn't been judged/completed yet.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  4. #139
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    The GWT is Gods righteous judgment ,and all will be there to receive what is written in the books. The book of life is opened revealing the redeemed who belong to the Lamb.
    Correct Jeff.
    We do, as committed Christians, have the Promise of Eternal life, John 3:16, and our names are Written in the Book of Life. But we must maintain our faith, because it IS possible to backslide and have our name blotted out from the Book of Life. Exodus 32:33, Psalms 69:28

    It is impossible for immortality to be conferred onto anyone before the Book of Life is opened, at the GWTJ. AFTER the Millennium.

  5. #140
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Correct Jeff.
    We do, as committed Christians, have the Promise of Eternal life, John 3:16, and our names are Written in the Book of Life. But we must maintain our faith, because it IS possible to backslide and have our name blotted out from the Book of Life. Exodus 32:33, Psalms 69:28

    It is impossible for immortality to be conferred onto anyone before the Book of Life is opened, at the GWTJ. AFTER the Millennium.
    Yes I agree.
    What is the point of opening the book of life, if those in it are already revealed at a previous time to the GWT.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Yes I agree.
    What is the point of opening the book of life, if those in it are already revealed at a previous time to the GWT.
    The saved are already judged and immortal before the thousand years which is before the GWTJ. The book of life is opened because it is supposed to be opened to see who is not written there. It's like a party but your name has to be in a list. All the people have shown up but someone else comes and claims they are invited. So the book is opened to see if they are on the list or not...they aren't so the "judge" sends them away...to the LOF in this case.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  7. #142
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The saved are already judged and immortal before the thousand years which is before the GWTJ.
    No sir. The saved are immortalized on the day he comes again to take out vengeance on those who reject the Gospel. Its a final judgment of eternal separation from his presence and ours.

    5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

    Eternal separation occurs at the GWT.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  8. #143
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    No sir. The saved are immortalized on the day he comes again to take out vengeance on those who reject the Gospel. .
    I know. He returns before the thousand years and we are shown one group of the dead resurrecting and who are immortal. Other scriptures affirm at this same time all the dead in Christ rise and I believe this also includes all the righteous dead of the OT who would be accepting of the Messiah.

    So, you simply have the timing of the second coming and resurrection wrong. Rev 20:4 is a time after Christ has arrived, and when the dead in Christ rise to immortality and reign with him over the nations. The same order is given at the end of Rev 2 as confirmation.

    Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

    That's a second coming reference.

    Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

    After "the end" will power be given to rule over the nations so this "end" is an end of one age, with a new age about to begin. After the end of this age the new age of the rule of the rod of iron for a thousand years will begin.

    Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

    Only AFTER the return of Christ and AFTER "the end" will overcomers receive this power over the nations.
    Only AFTER the return of Christ and AFTER "the end" will overcomers rule with a rod of iron over the nations.

    This reign which happens after the second coming will last 1000 years:

    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  9. #144
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    THIS is our promise;
    Daniel 12:1-3 At that time will appear Michael, the great Captain who stands guarding your fellow countrymen and there will be a time of anguish, such as has never been known.
    But at then your people [righteous Christian Israelites] will be delivered. Everyone whose name is entered in the Book [of Life].. every faithful Christian, from every race, nation and language. Revelation 7:9
    And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life and some to the reproach of eternal abhorrence.
    The wise leaders who have guided the peoples on the true path, will shine like the stars of the heavens
    .

    The ONLY time that this can come true, is after the Millennium. Any idea of an earlier change into immortality is false.
    Yes, those Christians who have maintained their trust and faith in the Lord during all the end times events, will be worthy to be the Lord's priests and co-rulers. Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:9-10.
    They may well live for that 1000 years, to then be changed in the twinkle of an eye, 1 Corinthians 15:52 into immortality, but no scripture says that can happen before the GWTJ, after the Millennium.

  10. #145
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    The GWT is Gods righteous judgment ,and all will be there to receive what is written in the books. The book of life is opened revealing the redeemed who belong to the Lamb.
    Correct Jeff.
    We do, as committed Christians, have the Promise of Eternal life, John 3:16, and our names are Written in the Book of Life. But we must maintain our faith, because it IS possible to backslide and have our name blotted out from the Book of Life. Exodus 32:33, Psalms 69:28

    It is impossible for immortality to be conferred onto anyone before the Book of Life is opened, at the GWTJ. AFTER the Millennium.

  11. #146
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Correct Jeff.
    We do, as committed Christians, have the Promise of Eternal life, John 3:16, and our names are Written in the Book of Life. But we must maintain our faith, because it IS possible to backslide and have our name blotted out from the Book of Life. Exodus 32:33, Psalms 69:28

    It is impossible for immortality to be conferred onto anyone before the Book of Life is opened, at the GWTJ. AFTER the Millennium.
    That's wrong. It happens at the second coming BEFORE the Millennium according to scripture.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


    It says the rest of the dead lived not until after the 1000 years...that living again means a resurrection and this proves there was a resurrection that happened in the verse before as it is describing two days of resurrecting separated by a thousand years.

    The first group to rise from the dead have no fear of the second death.

    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    The only way the 2nd death has no power is if you are immortal and judged to life, never capable of dying. The first resurrection is also another way to say "rise first" which is also related to the first mass resurrection:

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    This is also "the first resurrection" and happens at the same timeframe, the second coming. Some doubt they are immortal but scripture says they are:

    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    The last trumpet sounds before the thousand years begins!

    1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    It is swallowed up meaning for these people the second death has no power because they are resurrected into immortality and that is exactly the same for the smaller group that is focused on in Rev 20:4. They are not the only ones that resurrect to immortality, they are just what God wanted to focus on in that one passage. They are immortal. They were judged and resurrected BEFORE the thousand years as are all the dead in Christ.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Correct Jeff.
    We do, as committed Christians, have the Promise of Eternal life, John 3:16, and our names are Written in the Book of Life. But we must maintain our faith, because it IS possible to backslide and have our name blotted out from the Book of Life. Exodus 32:33, Psalms 69:28

    It is impossible for immortality to be conferred onto anyone before the Book of Life is opened, at the GWTJ. AFTER the Millennium.
    Except the GWT is a prosecutorial judgement. One that already has one's guilt in view but substantiates the case that YHVH is just in condemning those that face that judgement. Even in Revelation 20 at this judgement, there is no mention of those that are determined to be in the book of life. The only mention of anyone going anywhere is to the lake of fire.

    That is in contrast to the believer who has passed from death to life, and no longer is under condemnation. And the judgement seat of Christ is the one the believers face. Unlike the prosecutorial judgement of Revelation 20, this is a judgement of rewards. That is the view of the Greek behind it... bema... which is the seat where the athletes of the games would receive their rewards.

    The idea that the believers face the GWT is a misunderstanding. And honest one, but still a misunderstanding.

    A thorough study the letters to the Corinthians clarifies this. The Corinthians were noted for all sorts of wild acts. Even incest. But never does Paul suggest that their justification is in jeopardy. But he does make it clear that it is possible to lose all rewards and basically.....

    1 Corinthians 3:12-17 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
    16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

    The temple in this passage is our physical bodies. If we defile that thru continuing to sin, we risk our destruction on a physical level. But that does not imply destruction on a spiritual level for those who have believed and joined with Yeshua.

    Ananias and Sapphira will explain it all when we are all gathered together with the Lord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Correct Jeff.
    We do, as committed Christians, have the Promise of Eternal life, John 3:16, and our names are Written in the Book of Life. But we must maintain our faith, because it IS possible to backslide and have our name blotted out from the Book of Life. Exodus 32:33, Psalms 69:28

    It is impossible for immortality to be conferred onto anyone before the Book of Life is opened, at the GWTJ. AFTER the Millennium.
    Except the GWT is a prosecutorial judgement. One that already has one's guilt in view but substantiates the case that YHVH is just in condemning those that face that judgement. Even in Revelation 20 at this judgement, there is no mention of those that are determined to be in the book of life. The only mention of anyone going anywhere is to the lake of fire.

    That is in contrast to the believer who has passed from death to life, and no longer is under condemnation. And the judgement seat of Christ is the one the believers face. Unlike the prosecutorial judgement of Revelation 20, this is a judgement of rewards. That is the view of the Greek behind it... bema... which is the seat where the athletes of the games would receive their rewards.

    The idea that the believers face the GWT is a misunderstanding. And honest one, but still a misunderstanding.

    A thorough study the letters to the Corinthians clarifies this. The Corinthians were noted for all sorts of wild acts. Even incest. But never does Paul suggest that their justification is in jeopardy. But he does make it clear that it is possible to lose all rewards and basically.....

    1 Corinthians 3:12-17 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
    16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

    The temple in this passage is our physical bodies. If we defile that thru continuing to sin, we risk our destruction on a physical level. But that does not imply destruction on a spiritual level for those who have believed and joined with Yeshua.

    Ananias and Sapphira will explain it all when we are all gathered together with the Lord.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Where does the prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 say it takes place at the Return of Jesus?

    In fact that prophecy does not give a time frame, so your premise, ewq, is merely your opinion. Wrong as usual.
    But we can establish that immortality is conferred and Death is no more from Revelation 21:1-7, which is after the Millennium.

    Those martyrs raised back to life by Jesus at His Return, will be the same as Lazarus was. He died again, but his second death has no power over him and he will rise to eternal life at the GWTJ. John 11:24

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Where does the prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 say it takes place at the Return of Jesus?

    In fact that prophecy does not give a time frame, so your premise, ewq, is merely your opinion. Wrong as usual.
    No you are wrong as usual. The last trump is when Christ returns. That's a specific timeframe FYI.




    But we can establish that immortality is conferred and Death is no more from Revelation 21:1-7, which is after the Millennium.
    I have already proven the dead in Christ resurrect to immortality before the Millennium. Nothing you say will ever change what the scriptures declare.

    Those martyrs raised back to life by Jesus at His Return, will be the same as Lazarus was.
    That's badly incorrect as I have shown. The resurrection of the dead and the resulting immortality happens at the second coming.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Where does the prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 say it takes place at the Return of Jesus?

    In fact that prophecy does not give a time frame, so your premise, ewq, is merely your opinion. Wrong as usual.
    But we can establish that immortality is conferred and Death is no more from Revelation 21:1-7, which is after the Millennium.

    Those martyrs raised back to life by Jesus at His Return, will be the same as Lazarus was. He died again, but his second death has no power over him and he will rise to eternal life at the GWTJ. John 11:24
    It is better to say; "I understand it so ..." To say; "wrong as usual", sets you up for a red face when it is shown otherwise.

    In 1st Corinthians 15:23-24 we have the time of resurrection. It reads;
    23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."


    Thus, the dead IN CHRIST are raised at the Second Coming of Christ. But the Greek word for "coming" in this verse is "Parousia" which can mean His "coming" but is literally "His PRESENCE". It is thus the moment when He, the Lord, is PRESENT in the clouds for that is the time we are raised according to 1st Thessalonians 4:16. Verse 24 encompasses the Millennial Kingdom of 1,000 years. During the Millennium our Lord Jesus starts by subduing the Beast and his army at Armageddon. Then He further subdues the nations at the Throne of glory in Matthew 25:31-46. Then He rules the earth with a "rod of iron" - unbending and immediate justice. This continues till the end of the 1,000 years and then TWO "authorities" and "powers" rebel - Satan (an angel) and Magog and Gog (men). They are summarily defeated, but the slaughter is great (see Ezekiel 38 -39). Thus, there remains after this slaughter only ONE ENEMY - death. So at the following White Throne "the REST of the dead are raised" leaving not a single dead man. Thus, ALL rule and ALL authority and ALL power are subjected to Him - Jesus. When this has happened, just like Joseph is second to Pharaoh in the THRONE, our Lord Jesus presents a subdued and subjected Kingdom to His Father.

    When we come to verses 15:51-54, we read;
    51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."


    Verses 51 to 53a, it deals with the LIVING at the time of the Last Trumpet. Since the context is those who will inherit the Kingdom (verse 50), the Last Trumpet pertains to the Christians. A Trumpet is for calling a gathering, or to announce something or someone. So the "last Trumpet" in verse 52 must be "the Trumpet of God" in 1st Thessalonians 4:16 seeing as the same thing happens - the LIVING are made fit for the Kingdom. But then verse 53b swings the text back to the DEAD - those who were MORTAL and have experienced MORTALITY. Verse 54 deals first with the LIVING again - those who were CORRUPTIBLE but have been change to INCORRUPTIBILITY, and then with the DEAD who have put on IMMORTALITY. Thus the TIME for this double solution is AT CHRIST'S PRESENCE IN THE AIR - just like 1st Thessalonians 4.

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