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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #151
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Those martyrs raised back to life by Jesus at His Return, will be the same as Lazarus was.
    If the early church writers were to be believed, the resurrection of the saints in Matthew 27 did not die again but were taken to be with the Father. They were classified as saints at their resurrection. Lazarus wasn't.

    But the righteous / redeemed / justified believers in Yeshua never experiment the GWT judgment. They have already passed from death to life and are no longer under condemnation. The GWT judgment is for those that are not justified. The bema seat judgment of Yeshua is for the believers and it is one of rewards.
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  2. #152
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It is better to say; "I understand it so ..." To say; "wrong as usual", sets you up for a red face when it is shown otherwise.

    In 1st Corinthians 15:23-24 we have the time of resurrection. It reads;
    23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."
    .
    Your premise that every Christian is raised at Christ's coming, is a direct contradiction of the prophecy of Revelation 20:4, that specifically tells us that only those killed for their faith during the Great Tribulation, will be brought back to life.
    Paul does NOT say; all Christians, you just assume that.
    And note that they are only 'brought back to life', not made immortal yet.

    As for 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, your exposition has no proof of when this happens. The Last Trump can only be the final Trumpet blast of God's decreed time for mankind, which is 7000 years after the Millennium.

  3. #153
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    If the early church writers were to be believed, the resurrection of the saints in Matthew 27 did not die again but were taken to be with the Father. They were classified as saints at their resurrection. Lazarus wasn't.

    But the righteous / redeemed / justified believers in Yeshua never experiment the GWT judgment. They have already passed from death to life and are no longer under condemnation. The GWT judgment is for those that are not justified. The bema seat judgment of Yeshua is for the believers and it is one of rewards.
    I go by what the Bible says, not the ECF's, who had some very peculiar ideas.
    The OT saints are all as Daniel 12:13 is.

    Again, I point out that as Christians, we have the PROMISE of Eternal life, not yet the reality. John 3:16 does not say we receive immortality upon conversion.

    The GWTJ is explicit: EVERY person who has ever lived will stand before God and Jesus in Judgment. Only then is immortality conferred to those whose names are Written in the Book of Life and those whose names are not found will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:11-15
    As Paul tells us in 1 Cor 15:52, those who remain alive then, whose names are in the BoL, will be instantly changed into immortality and will never experience death.
    But to think anyone receives immortality before then, is not logical and quite unscriptural.

  4. #154
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It is better to say; "I understand it so ..." To say; "wrong as usual", sets you up for a red face when it is shown otherwise.

    In 1st Corinthians 15:23-24 we have the time of resurrection. It reads;
    23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."
    .
    Your premise that every Christian is raised at Christ's coming, is a direct contradiction of the prophecy of Revelation 20:4, that specifically tells us that only those killed for their faith during the Great Tribulation, will be brought back to life.
    Paul does NOT say; all Christians, you just assume that.
    And note that they are only 'brought back to life', not made immortal yet.

    As for 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, your exposition has no proof of when this happens. The Last Trump can only be the final Trumpet blast of God's decreed time for mankind, which is 7000 years after the Millennium.

  5. #155
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Your premise that every Christian is raised at Christ's coming, is a direct contradiction of the prophecy of Revelation 20:4, that specifically tells us that only those killed for their faith during the Great Tribulation, will be brought back to life.
    Paul does NOT say; all Christians, you just assume that.
    And note that they are only 'brought back to life', not made immortal yet.

    As for 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, your exposition has no proof of when this happens. The Last Trump can only be the final Trumpet blast of God's decreed time for mankind, which is 7000 years after the Millennium.
    I wish that the Mods here would fix the Edit function! And the double posting error.

    Correction to #152; ……. which is 7000 years, completed after the Millennium.

  6. #156
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Your premise that every Christian is raised at Christ's coming, is a direct contradiction of the prophecy of Revelation 20:4, that specifically tells us that only those killed for their faith during the Great Tribulation, will be brought back to life.
    Paul does NOT say; all Christians, you just assume that.
    And note that they are only 'brought back to life', not made immortal yet.

    As for 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, your exposition has no proof of when this happens. The Last Trump can only be the final Trumpet blast of God's decreed time for mankind, which is 7000 years after the Millennium.
    I do not have a premise. Paul said it was ALL Christians in 1st Corinthians 15:23 - "Those that ARE Christ's"! If you are Christ's POSSESSION you will enjoy a resurrection at His Parousia. With that in mind we approach Revelation 20:4-6. It reads;

    4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."


    This scripture does not address WHO is resurrected at Christ's presence. It addresses WHO WILL REIGN with Christ. We both know that in;
    1. Matthew 24:45-47 it is ONLY the "faithful and wise servant" who is made ruler. The unfaithful and unwise servant is NOT made ruler but he remains the Lord's possession for, "ye are bought with a price, ... ." (1st Corinthians 6:20, 7.23)
    2. Matthew 25:14-30 it is only the ONLY the "good and faithful servant" that is made ruler (v.21-23). The slothful servant is still the Lord's servant but consigned to a place "OUT"-SIDE the kingdom!
    3. Luke 19:12-26 the "good and faithful servant" is given cities to rule, while the lazy, slothful and unfaithful servant has his pound taken away and receives NOTHING of the Kingdom, BUT he is called "servant" in verse 22.

    Thus, it is clear that 1st Corinthians 15:23 does not decide who will join Christ in His KINGDOM. It decides who will be resurrected "when He comes". Even, so, Revelation 20:4 addresses "the FIRST resurrection". The Greek word CAN mean "first in TIME", but CAN EQUALLY mean "first in IMPORTANCE". Since Christ's resurrection was not the FIRST IN TIME, it MUST MEAN "first in IMPORTANCE". Elijah, Elisha, Elisha's bones, Jesus, Peter and Paul all raised people from the dead. Some of these were BEFORE Christ's resurrection. So our Lord's resurrection is NOT the first in TIME. Yet it is the FIRST in importance for in resurrection is the qualification for inheriting the Kingdom. The old combination of "flesh and blood" are put away and replace by "flesh and bones".

    • Resurrection is GUARANTEED FOR ALL MEN (1st Cor.15:22-24)
    • However, one resurrection must be ATTAINED TO (Phil.3:11)
    • Rapture is GUARANTEED for all Christians (1st Thess.4:16-17)
    • However, one resurrection is a PRIZE (Phil.3:14)

  7. #157
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I do not have a premise. Paul said it was ALL Christians in 1st Corinthians 15:23 - "Those that ARE Christ's"! If you are Christ's POSSESSION you will enjoy a resurrection at His Parousia. With that in mind we approach Revelation 20:4-6. It reads;

    4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."


    This scripture does not address WHO is resurrected at Christ's presence. It addresses WHO WILL REIGN with Christ. We both know that in;
    1. Matthew 24:45-47 it is ONLY the "faithful and wise servant" who is made ruler. The unfaithful and unwise servant is NOT made ruler but he remains the Lord's possession for, "ye are bought with a price, ... ." (1st Corinthians 6:20, 7.23)
    2. Matthew 25:14-30 it is only the ONLY the "good and faithful servant" that is made ruler (v.21-23). The slothful servant is still the Lord's servant but consigned to a place "OUT"-SIDE the kingdom!
    3. Luke 19:12-26 the "good and faithful servant" is given cities to rule, while the lazy, slothful and unfaithful servant has his pound taken away and receives NOTHING of the Kingdom, BUT he is called "servant" in verse 22.

    Thus, it is clear that 1st Corinthians 15:23 does not decide who will join Christ in His KINGDOM. It decides who will be resurrected "when He comes". Even, so, Revelation 20:4 addresses "the FIRST resurrection". The Greek word CAN mean "first in TIME", but CAN EQUALLY mean "first in IMPORTANCE". Since Christ's resurrection was not the FIRST IN TIME, it MUST MEAN "first in IMPORTANCE". Elijah, Elisha, Elisha's bones, Jesus, Peter and Paul all raised people from the dead. Some of these were BEFORE Christ's resurrection. So our Lord's resurrection is NOT the first in TIME. Yet it is the FIRST in importance for in resurrection is the qualification for inheriting the Kingdom. The old combination of "flesh and blood" are put away and replace by "flesh and bones".

    • Resurrection is GUARANTEED FOR ALL MEN (1st Cor.15:22-24)
    • However, one resurrection must be ATTAINED TO (Phil.3:11)
    • Rapture is GUARANTEED for all Christians (1st Thess.4:16-17)
    • However, one resurrection is a PRIZE (Phil.3:14)
    Again, a bunch of assumptions. Refuted by the plain truth that immortality is, and can only be conferred at the GWT, when the Book of Life is opened.

    The 'parousia' of 1 Thess 4:17 is obviously a transportation of His people from wherever they are when Jesus Returns, to where He is. Initially in the clouds, that is: in our atmosphere, then to Jerusalem. All as exactly described in Matthew 24:30-31

  8. #158
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Again, a bunch of assumptions. Refuted by the plain truth that immortality is, and can only be conferred at the GWT, when the Book of Life is opened.
    That itself is a massive assumption especially given that none of the GWTJ verses say anything about anyone being made immortal. According to the text itself, the only thing that anyone receives there is the second death of the LOF. Not a single word or reference or implication of immortality. The only passage in the chp that can at all be related to immortality is the judgement and resurrection of dead saints which the second death has no power over, meaning they are immortal since that is the only thing that causes the second death to be powerless. Having eternal life means you will not die ever again leaving the second death with no power over them.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  9. #159
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That itself is a massive assumption especially given that none of the GWTJ verses say anything about anyone being made immortal. According to the text itself, the only thing that anyone receives there is the second death of the LOF. Not a single word or reference or implication of immortality. The only passage in the chp that can at all be related to immortality is the judgement and resurrection of dead saints which the second death has no power over, meaning they are immortal since that is the only thing that causes the second death to be powerless. Having eternal life means you will not die ever again leaving the second death with no power over them.
    I note that you fail to give any scripture that says people could receive Eternal life before the GWTJ.
    But that is not your only failure; Revelation 20:12 says;...... then the Book of Life was opened. What Book? The Book with the names of those worthy to receive immortality. Believing that anyone gets immortality, or 'spiritual bodies', or even resurrected, [other than the Trib martyrs] is contrary to scriptural truth and is a Satanic lie, that you promote, to your disgrace.

    Then Revelation 21:1-7 goes on to describe how it is only then, that Death is no more. Which proves the prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 belongs at that time as well. [verses 54-55]

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    [other than the Trib martyrs] is contrary to scriptural truth and is a Satanic lie, that you promote, to your disgrace.
    No, definitely to yours. I always am surprised when a person says something which ultimately should be directed to themselves and what they teach. I rebuke everything you teach in the name of Jesus Christ.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  11. #161
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I go by what the Bible says, not the ECF's, who had some very peculiar ideas.
    The OT saints are all as Daniel 12:13 is.
    Please then, provide scripture that specifically refutes the proposition of the EC writers that the saints of Matthew 27 were taken by Yeshua to the Father. Some of them had direct contact with the Apostles or at least contact with their students. It might be a little bit arrogant to say almost 2000 years later that we know more about this than they did.

    Indeed, we have to look at what we are given in scripture. And these resurrected of Matthew 27 are called saints, unlike any other individuals that was resurrected by Yeshua or even Peter resurrecting Tabitha. And the writer of Hebrews (Paul I am convinced) states explicitly that we are appointed once to die then the judgement. And Paul makes it clear that the judgement the redeemed person goes thru is the rewards judgment "bema" seat of Yeshua, not the GWT judgement.

    There was no concept of the redeemed Ekklesia / church / body of Messiha to Daniel. It was a mystery withheld from the world until Yeshua came. So what we find in Daniel is apropos to things regarding his people the Hebrews and world in general, details regarding the saints as it pertains to the new entity of the church that came into being at Shavuot after Yeshua's resurrection were not part of what was given to Daniel.

    Ephesians 5:29-32 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

  12. #162
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    Please then, provide scripture that specifically refutes the proposition of the EC writers that the saints of Matthew 27 were taken by Yeshua to the Father. Some of them had direct contact with the Apostles or at least contact with their students. It might be a little bit arrogant to say almost 2000 years later that we know more about this than they did.

    Indeed, we have to look at what we are given in scripture. And these resurrected of Matthew 27 are called saints, unlike any other individuals that was resurrected by Yeshua or even Peter resurrecting Tabitha. And the writer of Hebrews (Paul I am convinced) states explicitly that we are appointed once to die then the judgement. And Paul makes it clear that the judgement the redeemed person goes thru is the rewards judgment "bema" seat of Yeshua, not the GWT judgement.

    There was no concept of the redeemed Ekklesia / church / body of Messiha to Daniel. It was a mystery withheld from the world until Yeshua came. So what we find in Daniel is apropos to things regarding his people the Hebrews and world in general, details regarding the saints as it pertains to the new entity of the church that came into being at Shavuot after Yeshua's resurrection were not part of what was given to Daniel.

    Ephesians 5:29-32 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
    The onus is on you, Cliff.
    You provide scriptural proof that the 'saints' seen in Matthew 27:32-33 were taken to heaven. At the very least provide the reference to an ECF statement to that effect.

    Again, please provide the scripture that says Jesus will Judge individuals for their Eternal life, at His Return. He judges the nations then; Matthew 25:31-33

    We ARE appointed to die and then the Judgment. All the dead are just as Daniel 12:13 is. 'Sleeping' in the grave until the Last Trump, when ALL the dead will rise to Judgment before God on the Great White Throne. Any other idea is unscriptural nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    Please then, provide scripture that specifically refutes the proposition of the EC writers that the saints of Matthew 27 were taken by Yeshua to the Father. Some of them had direct contact with the Apostles or at least contact with their students. It might be a little bit arrogant to say almost 2000 years later that we know more about this than they did.

    Indeed, we have to look at what we are given in scripture. And these resurrected of Matthew 27 are called saints, unlike any other individuals that was resurrected by Yeshua or even Peter resurrecting Tabitha. And the writer of Hebrews (Paul I am convinced) states explicitly that we are appointed once to die then the judgement. And Paul makes it clear that the judgement the redeemed person goes thru is the rewards judgment "bema" seat of Yeshua, not the GWT judgement.

    There was no concept of the redeemed Ekklesia / church / body of Messiha to Daniel. It was a mystery withheld from the world until Yeshua came. So what we find in Daniel is apropos to things regarding his people the Hebrews and world in general, details regarding the saints as it pertains to the new entity of the church that came into being at Shavuot after Yeshua's resurrection were not part of what was given to Daniel.

    Ephesians 5:29-32 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
    The onus is on you, Cliff.
    You provide scriptural proof that the 'saints' seen in Matthew 27:32-33 were taken to heaven. At the very least provide the reference to an ECF statement to that effect.

    Again, please provide the scripture that says Jesus will Judge individuals for their Eternal life, at His Return. He judges the nations then; Matthew 25:31-33

    We ARE appointed to die and then the Judgment. All the dead are just as Daniel 12:13 is. 'Sleeping' in the grave until the Last Trump, when ALL the dead will rise to Judgment before God on the Great White Throne. Any other idea is unscriptural nonsense.

  13. #163
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No, definitely to yours. I always am surprised when a person says something which ultimately should be directed to themselves and what they teach. I rebuke everything you teach in the name of Jesus Christ.
    As what you believe and teach is not from Jesus, in fact He specifically says that it is impossible for humans to go to heaven; John 3:13, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, John 7:34, Revelation 2:25-26, then your rebuke is against you.

  14. #164
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    Please then, provide scripture that specifically refutes the proposition of the EC writers that the saints of Matthew 27 were taken by Yeshua to the Father. Some of them had direct contact with the Apostles or at least contact with their students. It might be a little bit arrogant to say almost 2000 years later that we know more about this than they did.

    Indeed, we have to look at what we are given in scripture. And these resurrected of Matthew 27 are called saints, unlike any other individuals that was resurrected by Yeshua or even Peter resurrecting Tabitha. And the writer of Hebrews (Paul I am convinced) states explicitly that we are appointed once to die then the judgement. And Paul makes it clear that the judgement the redeemed person goes thru is the rewards judgment "bema" seat of Yeshua, not the GWT judgement.

    There was no concept of the redeemed Ekklesia / church / body of Messiha to Daniel. It was a mystery withheld from the world until Yeshua came. So what we find in Daniel is apropos to things regarding his people the Hebrews and world in general, details regarding the saints as it pertains to the new entity of the church that came into being at Shavuot after Yeshua's resurrection were not part of what was given to Daniel.

    Ephesians 5:29-32 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
    The onus is on you, Cliff.
    You provide scriptural proof that the 'saints' seen in Matthew 27:32-33 were taken to heaven. At the very least provide the reference to an ECF statement to that effect.

    Again, please provide the scripture that says Jesus will Judge individuals for their Eternal life, at His Return. He judges the nations then; Matthew 25:31-33

    We ARE appointed to die and then the Judgment. All the dead are just as Daniel 12:13 is. 'Sleeping' in the grave until the Last Trump, when ALL the dead will rise to Judgment before God on the Great White Throne. Any other idea is unscriptural nonsense.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    So we CANNOT be physical transformed on earth?
    What does 1 Cor 15 show? 1 Thess 4 has the SAME. We are transformed BEFORE we meet Jesus in the clouds.
    Dan 7 does not make the suggestion even in the slightest way that we are raptured to heaven.
    No, the order of events is, the dead Christians rise and the living Christians are caught up to the sky, to heaven, to join with Christ, who is just beginning his descent to earth. We are caught up in order to be transformed in the air, receiving new glorified bodies when we meet the glorified Christ, who is himself in the air. Then we return to earth with him. All this takes place in a single second.

    It is the same with 1 Thes 4. When Christ begins his descent from heaven those raised from the dead put on immortality. And those who were still alive are instantly caught up to receive glorified bodies as they begin the descent with Christ. It does not require of God any time to accomplish all of this. It is instantaneous. It centers on Christ himself, who begins his descent *with us,* both the dead and the living.

    1 Cor 15.48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

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