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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #166
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    Sounds interesting until one reads Revelation and finds out the church is never mentioned after Chapter 3 until the final salutation of the book. If the church was the focus it seems strange it isnít even mentioned.
    If I write a letter to you, I might begin the letter, "Dear Cliff." Thereafter I don't mention "Cliff" at all--no need to. Pronouns suffice perfectly well to express the fact I'm still referring to you. You know who is being talked to.

    The same with the book of Revelation. It is written to the Church. Once the Church is firmly established as the audience there is no need to continually repeat the word "church." Representations, such as saints, work perfectly well in describing the Church. We know the Church is still being addressed.

    When you rob the book of the ones who the revelation is specifically addressed to, you tamper with the words of this revelation. That's dangerous ground, in my opinion. If you say the book of Revelation is not for the Church, who on earth do you think it was written for?

  2. #167
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, the order of events is, the dead Christians rise and the living Christians are caught up to the sky, to heaven, to join with Christ, who is just beginning his descent to earth. We are caught up in order to be transformed in the air, receiving new glorified bodies when we meet the glorified Christ, who is himself in the air. Then we return to earth with him. All this takes place in a single second.
    Wouldn't it make sense that the transformation happens before being caught up to a place in the clouds where there is no oxygen? It could be the way you say but a transformation on the Earth before that catching up seems more feasable to me.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  3. #168
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If I write a letter to you, I might begin the letter, "Dear Cliff." Thereafter I don't mention "Cliff" at all--no need to. Pronouns suffice perfectly well to express the fact I'm still referring to you. You know who is being talked to.

    The same with the book of Revelation. It is written to the Church. Once the Church is firmly established as the audience there is no need to continually repeat the word "church." Representations, such as saints, work perfectly well in describing the Church. We know the Church is still being addressed.

    When you rob the book of the ones who the revelation is specifically addressed to, you tamper with the words of this revelation. That's dangerous ground, in my opinion. If you say the book of Revelation is not for the Church, who on earth do you think it was written for?
    They invent a caste system...the real church left, and in the trib is a new trib-church or trib-saints who weren't Christians before the trib and thus deserve the ugliness of the trib.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  4. #169
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Wouldn't it make sense that the transformation happens before being caught up to a place in the clouds where there is no oxygen? It could be the way you say but a transformation on the Earth before that catching up seems more feasable to me.
    I'm not positive, so I posted the question elsewhere. My thought is that our glorified bodies are received at the moment we arrive at where Jesus is in heaven, just as he begins his descent to the earth. My thought is as follows.

    1) We receive glorified bodies in heaven because that's where Jesus received his glorified body from God.
    2) We receive glorified bodies in heaven because we must appear on earth together with Christ in new glorified bodies, when he descends from heaven.

    Whether these things are true is the question. I base my belief on the fact Jesus said Mary was holding on to him, and shouldn't be doing that, because he had to go to heaven and obtain his final glorified status. Arriving at the right hand of God enabled him to receive his new glorified body so that he could reign as the Son of God over all of creation. It does not make sense to me that he received this status immediately after his resurrection from the dead, and before he ascended into heaven.

    But I'm still looking for a clearer statement where it is said that when Jesus arrived at the right hand of God it was at that specific time when he received his new glorified body. If you find one, let me know? Until then I can't be dogmatic about it.

  5. #170
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    They invent a caste system...the real church left, and in the trib is a new trib-church or trib-saints who weren't Christians before the trib and thus deserve the ugliness of the trib.
    I'm not sure what your position is, but yes, Pretribbers have the Church removed, only to be replaced by a Tribulation Church. This Tribulation Church is not a false one, but apparently one that deserved to enter into the Final Tribulation era.

    I can see how this view is fit into the Revelation, but I cannot justify it. It is certainly not a theology that is specifically and doctrinally taught--rather, it is something that appears by way of conjecture and insinuation.

    In essence, symbols are used to reflect a supposed Pre-Trib Rapture, thereafter assuming that the Church has departed. There is absolutely no specific reference to the Church being Raptured out before the time of Antichrist, except by reference to very controversial passages, eg the removal of the Restrainer in 2 Thes 2.

  6. #171
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, the order of events is, the dead Christians rise and the living Christians are caught up to the sky, to heaven, to join with Christ, who is just beginning his descent to earth. We are caught up in order to be transformed in the air, receiving new glorified bodies when we meet the glorified Christ, who is himself in the air. Then we return to earth with him. All this takes place in a single second.
    The transformation happens BEFORE we meet Jesus.
    Definitely we do NOT go as far as the third heaven which Jesus left already. The meeting place is in the clouds.

    It is the same with 1 Thes 4. When Christ begins his descent from heaven those raised from the dead put on immortality. And those who were still alive are instantly caught up to receive glorified bodies as they begin the descent with Christ. It does not require of God any time to accomplish all of this. It is instantaneous. It centers on Christ himself, who begins his descent *with us,* both the dead and the living.
    1 Cor 15.48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
    Why do you say when they begin their descent?
    Why doesn't the transformation happen at the SAME TIME that it does for the dead?
    You are correct to note that the transformation itself takes an instant to occur, or as 1 Cor 15 says in the twinkling of an eye.

    However the rapture itself does NOT seem to take an instant.
    We have TWO clear scriptures to suggest the rapture is not instantaneous.
    The first is the rapture of Elijah, where Elisha sees him being taken away.
    The second is the ascension of Jesus, where they watch him ascending until the clouds block Him from sight.

    I expect it is quite quick, but that is not the same as instantaneous, which is what the transformation seems to be.
    Further you are yet to provide a reason why you say the transformation MUST happen AFTER leaving the earth, which was my point. There is no such requirement in scripture.

  7. #172
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not positive, so I posted the question elsewhere. My thought is that our glorified bodies are received at the moment we arrive at where Jesus is in heaven, just as he begins his descent to the earth. My thought is as follows.

    1) We receive glorified bodies in heaven because that's where Jesus received his glorified body from God.
    2) We receive glorified bodies in heaven because we must appear on earth together with Christ in new glorified bodies, when he descends from heaven.

    Whether these things are true is the question. I base my belief on the fact Jesus said Mary was holding on to him, and shouldn't be doing that, because he had to go to heaven and obtain his final glorified status. Arriving at the right hand of God enabled him to receive his new glorified body so that he could reign as the Son of God over all of creation. It does not make sense to me that he received this status immediately after his resurrection from the dead, and before he ascended into heaven.

    But I'm still looking for a clearer statement where it is said that when Jesus arrived at the right hand of God it was at that specific time when he received his new glorified body. If you find one, let me know? Until then I can't be dogmatic about it.
    Let's deal with these two thoughts:
    1) Was Jesus already in His new resurrected body when He rose from the tomb? Certainly He was. Was He in a glorified (transfigured) state so that no one could look at Him? No. This was true for the next 40 days while He met the disciples.
    2) We meet Jesus AFTER He has left heaven as 1 Thess clearly states. So there is a chornology issue for you here. Moreover this doesn't clarify WHY we can't be transformed on earth.

    Now as for your basis, the reason would seem to be so that He presents Himself to the Father as the perfect sacrifice - not so He can get a glorified body.
    Did Jesus sit at the right hand of the Father DURING the 40 days He was showing Himself on earth? We don;t know, but scripture doesn't state this as being so. It seems to suggest that this occurred AFTER He ascended after the 40 days.

  8. #173
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not sure what your position is, but yes, Pretribbers have the Church removed, only to be replaced by a Tribulation Church. This Tribulation Church is not a false one, but apparently one that deserved to enter into the Final Tribulation era.

    I can see how this view is fit into the Revelation, but I cannot justify it. It is certainly not a theology that is specifically and doctrinally taught--rather, it is something that appears by way of conjecture and insinuation.

    In essence, symbols are used to reflect a supposed Pre-Trib Rapture, thereafter assuming that the Church has departed. There is absolutely no specific reference to the Church being Raptured out before the time of Antichrist, except by reference to very controversial passages, eg the removal of the Restrainer in 2 Thes 2.
    That is just not a factual account brother. The REMNANT Church who are the Martyrs of the 5th Seal {shown in Rev. 12:17 as the Remnant} are people who repent after the Rapture. That is not really people who were not "WORTHY" because none of us are worthy to go before God save Jesus' blood. So they TARRIED and thus did not make the Rapture, but then decided to make the commitment to Christ Jesus. That is not really that complicated, I think you guys understand what we are saying in reality. So no one deserved to enter the "Tribulation" they just chose not to follow Jesus until after the Rapture so it is what it is.

    It is the doctrine understood by the vast majority of Christendom. It truly boggles my mind why you guys fight this truth so vehemently, I don't get it.

    But as you are being Raptured, just remember, we told you so.....God bless.

  9. #174

    Cool Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Let's deal with these two thoughts:
    1) Was Jesus already in His new resurrected body when He rose from the tomb? Certainly He was. Was He in a glorified (transfigured) state so that no one could look at Him? No. This was true for the next 40 days while He met the disciples.
    2) We meet Jesus AFTER He has left heaven as 1 Thess clearly states. So there is a chornology issue for you here. Moreover this doesn't clarify WHY we can't be transformed on earth.

    Now as for your basis, the reason would seem to be so that He presents Himself to the Father as the perfect sacrifice - not so He can get a glorified body.
    Did Jesus sit at the right hand of the Father DURING the 40 days He was showing Himself on earth? We don;t know, but scripture doesn't state this as being so. It seems to suggest that this occurred AFTER He ascended after the 40 days.
    God's normal makeup is Spirit, only He can produce a body for Himself or angels like they did on the Plains of Mamre, we they visited and ate with Abraham. This tells us God is a Spirit:

    John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

    Even during the 40 day Christ walked the earth, He was not in His glorified state. We are given a picture of that:

    Rev. 2:18 "And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;"
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  10. #175
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    I find it hard to credit, that a group of intelligent people are discussing scenarios of impossible things, as though they will actually take place.
    Ideas like an instantaneous change into glorified bodies, before any trials and testing, let alone Judgment. A rapture to heaven of the Church, a fable that has consumed tons of paper and ink, still totally without any sure consensus of when it could happen.
    All these issues have been argued, fought over even; for a hundred plus years. Doesn't this make people question the validity of those beliefs?

    But what is most concerning, is the fact that the Prophetic Word does plainly tell us what God actually has planned for His people and the world in these last few years of the Church age.
    That people are unable to comprehend those prophesies, is told us by Jesus in Matthew 11:25 and 1 Corinthians 3:18-20, where those learned, so called wise theologians and Bible experts, cannot understand these truths. Also in Isaiah 29:9-12, we are told that people who choose to believe false theories will be blinded to the truth and 2 Thessalonians 2:11 says that God will place those with closed minds under a compelling delusion, which makes them believe what is false.
    Then: 2 Thess 2:12 So that all who have not believed the truth, but made falsehood their choice, may be brought to Judgment.

    Fellow Christians, my aim and desire is for all of you and as many as I can reach, to be presented with the scriptural Truth; the undeniable facts of prophecy and a common sense, logical sequence of what will happen in the near future to all of us. It is a message of hope and God's Promise of protection during a short time of difficulty, and then how He will mightily Bless His faithful people.
    All the prophesied events and the full story of the future are set out in 800+ short articles, free to read at: logostelos.info

    I find it hard to credit, that a group of intelligent people are discussing scenarios of impossible things, as though they will actually take place.
    Ideas like an instantaneous change into glorified bodies, before any trials and testing, let alone Judgment. A rapture to heaven of the Church, a fable that has consumed tons of paper and ink, still totally without any sure consensus of when it could happen.
    All these issues have been argued, fought over even; for a hundred plus years. Doesn't this make people question the validity of those beliefs?

    But what is most concerning, is the fact that the Prophetic Word does plainly tell us what God actually has planned for His people and the world in these last few years of the Church age.
    That people are unable to comprehend those prophesies, is told us by Jesus in Matthew 11:25 and 1 Corinthians 3:18-20, where those learned, so called wise theologians and Bible experts, cannot understand these truths. Also in Isaiah 29:9-12, we are told that people who choose to believe false theories will be blinded to the truth and 2 Thessalonians 2:11 says that God will place those with closed minds under a compelling delusion, which makes them believe what is false.
    Then: 2 Thess 2:12 So that all who have not believed the truth, but made falsehood their choice, may be brought to Judgment.

    Fellow Christians, my aim and desire is for all of you and as many as I can reach, to be presented with the scriptural Truth; the undeniable facts of prophecy and a common sense, logical sequence of what will happen in the near future to all of us. It is a message of hope and God's Promise of protection during a short time of difficulty, and then how He will mightily Bless His faithful people.
    All the prophesied events and the full story of the future are set out in 800+ short articles, free to read at: logostelos.info

  11. #176
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I find it hard to credit, that a group of intelligent people are discussing scenarios of impossible things, as though they will actually take place.
    Ideas like an instantaneous change into glorified bodies, before any trials and testing, let alone Judgment.
    Sorry, but when we come to Christ we have to take up our cross and follow Him and may face all kinds of trials and temptations and be persecuted.
    However the Gospel states that we do NOT come into Judgement for Eternal life - that is a FALSE doctrine.

    But what is most concerning, is the fact that the Prophetic Word does plainly tell us what God actually has planned for His people and the world in these last few years of the Church age.
    That people are unable to comprehend those prophesies, is told us by Jesus in Matthew 11:25 and 1 Corinthians 3:18-20, where those learned, so called wise theologians and Bible experts, cannot understand these truths. Also in Isaiah 29:9-12, we are told that people who choose to believe false theories will be blinded to the truth and 2 Thessalonians 2:11 says that God will place those with closed minds under a compelling delusion, which makes them believe what is false.
    Then: 2 Thess 2:12 So that all who have not believed the truth, but made falsehood their choice, may be brought to Judgment.

    Fellow Christians, my aim and desire is for all of you and as many as I can reach, to be presented with the scriptural Truth; the undeniable facts of prophecy and a common sense, logical sequence of what will happen in the near future to all of us. It is a message of hope and God's Promise of protection during a short time of difficulty, and then how He will mightily Bless His faithful people.
    All the prophesied events and the full story of the future are set out in 800+ short articles, free to read at: logostelos.info
    Your heart might be wanting something good, but you exhalt your understanding as if it is the correct one.
    You are wrong about so many things even though you are right about others.

  12. #177
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post

    John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."


    When scripture mentions the term "God" by itself there are three possibilities to what that refers:

    The Trinity:

    1: God the Father
    2: God the Son
    3: God the Holy Spirit


    When it says, "God is a spirit" which of the three of the Trinity do you think it best applies to? God the Father isn't a bodiless spirit according to multiple scriptures and clearly the son isn't either so all we have left is God the (holy) spirit.


    Joh_4:24 God is a (Holy) Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    I think the verse is clearly speaking of the Holy Spirit when it says "Spirit".
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  13. #178
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    So they TARRIED and thus did not make the Rapture, but then decided to make the commitment to Christ Jesus.
    Really?

    Matt 25
    10 And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.

    11 Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

    29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  14. #179
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The transformation happens BEFORE we meet Jesus.
    Definitely we do NOT go as far as the third heaven which Jesus left already. The meeting place is in the clouds.
    I never said the Church is raptured to the 3rd heaven! I'm not even sure where the 3rd heaven is? But I do believe that the Church is transformed, gloriously, when we meet Christ in the clouds. If you have evidence that this is not so, please present it?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Why do you say when they begin their descent?
    Why doesn't the transformation happen at the SAME TIME that it does for the dead?
    You are correct to note that the transformation itself takes an instant to occur, or as 1 Cor 15 says in the twinkling of an eye.
    That's my point, that we are to participate in Christ's *descent.* In order to participate in his glorious coming, we have to be transformed at the very instant he begins to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    However the rapture itself does NOT seem to take an instant.
    We have TWO clear scriptures to suggest the rapture is not instantaneous.
    The first is the rapture of Elijah, where Elisha sees him being taken away.
    The second is the ascension of Jesus, where they watch him ascending until the clouds block Him from sight.
    Yes, those instances are Rapture-like, but they are not the Rapture of the Church. The Rapture of the Church, we are told, takes place in a unique place in history, at the Return of Christ, to establish his Kingdom on earth. And so, we are told we are instantly transformed, in the very second that he returns to earth, to set up his Kingdom. In order to rule with him, we must 1st be transformed like him.

    Nobody has been transformed like this before, except Jesus. The point is, it will only take a second of time for it to take place, because God is creating for us new, immortal bodies, and not restoring the old ones. How long does it take for God to create anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    I expect it is quite quick, but that is not the same as instantaneous, which is what the transformation seems to be.
    Further you are yet to provide a reason why you say the transformation MUST happen AFTER leaving the earth, which was my point. There is no such requirement in scripture.
    I provide the reason above, for your consideration. This is not an argument for me, but a proposition. I don't know the answer for sure. It's just looking like this to me

  15. #180
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Let's deal with these two thoughts:
    1) Was Jesus already in His new resurrected body when He rose from the tomb? Certainly He was.
    From what I can tell this is a pure assertion on your part? You are calling this a "new body," and yet every evidence has it that this was his old body resurrected from the dead. He still had the scars! The body was gone! The fact he was resurrected does *not* mean he had a "new body!"

    By a "new body" I refer to a *different body* than the one Jesus had been living in. We are told that we will have *different bodies* when we are transformed into his glorious image, are we not? So I don't think Jesus had a different body when he was raised from the dead. He may or may not have received his new glorified body when he ascended into heaven. Or, he may somehow exist in spirit form until he dons a new glorified body when he returns with us at his Coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Was He in a glorified (transfigured) state so that no one could look at Him? No. This was true for the next 40 days while He met the disciples.
    And yet Jesus showed his glorified state, in a kind of vision, on the Mt. of Transfiguration. This is not what Jesus looked like after his resurrection from the dead! It did not yet seem to be his glorified body!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    2) We meet Jesus AFTER He has left heaven as 1 Thess clearly states. So there is a chornology issue for you here. Moreover this doesn't clarify WHY we can't be transformed on earth.
    No, I just read this differently than you. I read that we participate in his descent from heaven. Therefore, we are transformed at the beginning of his descent, and not afterwards. Otherwise we cannot participate in his glorious coming, because we will not have been glorified yet!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Now as for your basis, the reason would seem to be so that He presents Himself to the Father as the perfect sacrifice - not so He can get a glorified body.
    Did Jesus sit at the right hand of the Father DURING the 40 days He was showing Himself on earth? We don;t know, but scripture doesn't state this as being so. It seems to suggest that this occurred AFTER He ascended after the 40 days.
    No, I don't think Jesus showed himself to the Father, nor sat at the right hand of God, immediately after his resurrection. He didn't want Mary, or others, to think that their purpose should be to detain him on earth. And so, Jesus informed Mary that she should not try to detain him, or to keep him ministering on earth.

    But after 40 days Jesus ascended into heaven to meet with his Father and to assume his divine authority over all creation, sitting on the right hand of God. Whether he received, at that time, a new body or not I don't know.

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