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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #226

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    DVW,
    There are no such thing as OT saints, trib saints, MK saints.

    There are those written in the Lamb's book of Life; and those blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

    That's it.
    Note, in Scripture, the following:

    --"the Lamb's Book of Life" - NO ONE'S name is "BLOTTED OUT" of THIS Book; ONLY "written in" OR "not written in" [the record of all who are "saved']

    --"the book of life" - one's name CAN BE "BLOTTED OUT" of THIS book [the record of all who have ever lived ; see also Psalm 69:28 and note its clear distinctions in this verse; started with Adam and Eve and all their seed]



    Spend a day, and only post scriptures alone, to validate your points, and see if it can be done, […].

  2. #227

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Again, you spend all of your energy adding your own commentary and spinning it into something the scriptures themselves do not say on their own...stop it.

    Let the word of God stand alone, to get your point across. Watch how this works. See how easily the reader can understand on their own, without tons of personal commentary otherwise.

    Example:

    "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet" Matthew 24:27

    "and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, FROM the uttermost part of the earth TO the uttermost part of heaven. " Mark 13:27

    That is at the time of His Second Coming to the earth ("when" also Daniel was told "[thou shalt rest (death)] and STAND IN THY LOT at the END OF THE DAYS"... the specific "days" referred to in that CONTEXT: Dan12:6-7,1)

  3. #228

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    "GREAT trumpet" Matthew 24:29-31 ("after the tribulation of those days") is found ALSO in Isaiah 27:12-13 (and in that passage tells "WHO" and "WHAT" and "WHERE")

  4. #229

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    ...and "HOW" ("gathered ONE BY ONE" that is, severally--as opposed to "HOW" our Rapture is specifically stated to be, "AS ONE")

  5. #230
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Let me give an example of using scripture only to show my expectation of the end of time.

    (No personal commentary; just read what God's Word says)

    "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

    "But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee"

    "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

    "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon"

    "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. "

    "he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation. "

    "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. "

    "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. "

    "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. "

    "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. "

    "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. "

    "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. "

    "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."


    Matthew 24:5; Job 14:10; Acts 3:19; Isaiah 26:19; Romans 8:18; Isaiah 25:7; 2 Thess 2:7; Matt 13:41; II Pet 3:12; John 5:28; 2 Cor 5:10; Rev 20:11


    God's Word speaks clearly on it's own, without external commentary and speculation.

  6. #231
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    That is just not a factual account brother. The REMNANT Church who are the Martyrs of the 5th Seal {shown in Rev. 12:17 as the Remnant} are people who repent after the Rapture. That is not really people who were not "WORTHY" because none of us are worthy to go before God save Jesus' blood. So they TARRIED and thus did not make the Rapture, but then decided to make the commitment to Christ Jesus. That is not really that complicated, I think you guys understand what we are saying in reality. So no one deserved to enter the "Tribulation" they just chose not to follow Jesus until after the Rapture so it is what it is.

    It is the doctrine understood by the vast majority of Christendom. It truly boggles my mind why you guys fight this truth so vehemently, I don't get it.

    But as you are being Raptured, just remember, we told you so.....God bless.
    On the contrary, those who hold to a Post-trib disposition equally find your Pretrib rapture position mind-boggling.

  7. #232
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You actually present the Tribulation Saints in a better light than most Pretribulationists! Often they are portrayed as pour souls who were "lukewarm," and now have to be "refined by fire."

    I don't see any explicit statements about the "souls under the altar" with respect to this issue? It just indicates that the dead souls await the coming of the Lord, when they will be clothed with new glorified bodies.

    The vast majority of Christiandom does *not* accept the Pretrib Rapture, whether or not it is "understood!" For 1800 years the primary view of the Church was Postribulational. You won't find much Pretrib in the Early Church. And in the Reformation the Protestants believed the Antichrist had already, in a sense, appeared as the Papacy! So clearly, they weren't Pretrib either!

    The book of Revelation is about expectation that the spirit of Antichrist opposes us, and persecutes us. We have to rely on the authority God gave us to witness to the truth until the end of this evil age. That is the story of the book of Revelation. It is about overcoming the Evil One--not escaping him!
    And let the saints say, Amen!

  8. #233
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    So then, are you persecuted unto death? The day may come that you will be, do not think for a moment that anyone living will escape this testing in the last few years of this Church era.
    Re Judgment: We must all stand before God on His Great White Throne. The Book of Life will be opened and provided our name is found there, we will receive immortality, if not; very bad outcome. That is what the Bible tells us, any other theory is false.

    I put forward the correct, Biblical truths. There is only one way the end times will unfold. You say I am wrong because the Truth conflicts with your beliefs.
    What would be the right thing to do? Carry on believing false ideas and theories, or change your beliefs to conform with the Prophetic Word? It must be possible for you, as many people have renounced the 'rapture to heaven', a full Jewish redemption and their preterist beliefs, etc. To their everlasting credit.
    Brother, the saints will receive immortality and eternal life before the GWTJ when the Book of Life is opened.

  9. #234
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    What is a 'glorified body'? I assume it is a spiritual and therefore; immortal body.
    So scripturally, it is impossible to have such a body, until the Day when the Book of Life is opened. Only the Tribulation martyrs are brought back to life at the Return. Revelation 20:4. NOT made immortal yet.

    The OT saints, the Christian martyrs since Stephen; ALL the dead await the GWTJ. They 'sleep in their graves, as does Daniel 12:13
    A very interesting theory indeed, albeit far removed from the truth. Your position holds that the church faithful won't rise until after the Millennial Age. But this is not true according to 1 Thess 4:16-17.

  10. #235
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Harpazo occurs at the 2nd Advent in I Thess 4:15.

    It is not of itself an event.

    It has been made into an event; by modern-day sensationalism.

    We could say that because the trumpet sounds at the 2nd Advent, we should create a 'Trumpet Event'.
    We could say that because the Lord calls out in shout, we should create a 'Shouting Event'.

    My point was, the focus of the scriptures, is Christ' Advent, His descent from Heaven, and our resurrecting/uniting with Him. (Harpazo 'our gathering to Him' is one part of that; not the event).
    I think you are wrong because Harpazo definitely is a special event prophesied by several OT prophets and NT Apostles (Hosea 13:14). In 1 Cor 15:55-56 death is mocked because its stranglehold and power over the living were broken when the faitful bypass death by being Raptured into immortality. Even it's hold over those in the grave is equally broken when they arise from the grave. If this not a special event, I don't know what is.

  11. #236
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It does actually. Both resurrections are the dead coming back to life. "the rest of the dead lived not again" proves that the first resurrection was also a group of the dead that came back to life. The second group will also come back to life. There is a thousand years inbetween.
    David Taylor is right; the first is a bodily [spiritual body] resurrection, called the resurrection of life (John 5:29). But the second is not a resurrection of life; there is nothing in Rev 20:12-13 that show the resurrected as having life. I am inclined to call it the resurrection of damnation, but since the time of the OT saints resurrection is not clear, I will refrain. Some say they will arise to participate in the MK, others hold that they will arise at the GWTJ - so am reluctant to rush into categorising the second resurrection as that of damnation in case it is true that the OT saints rise at that time.

  12. #237
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I think you are wrong because Harpazo definitely is a special event prophesied by several OT prophets and NT Apostles (Hosea 13:14). In 1 Cor 15:55-56 death is mocked because its stranglehold and power over the living were broken when the faitful bypass death by being Raptured into immortality. Even it's hold over those in the grave is equally broken when they arise from the grave. If this not a special event, I don't know what is.
    I Corinthians 15 is about the resurrection; not harpazo.

    Times Harpazo is mentioned in I Corinthians 15:
    zero times.

    Times Resurrection of mankind and rising from the dead is mentioned in I Corinthians 15:
    46 times.

    Harpazo does occur at Christ's 2nd Advent(per I Thess 4:15-17); but it is not 'the' event.
    The Event as I Corinthians says, is the resurrection of the body, and the victory over death Christ gives us.

  13. #238
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    David Taylor is right; the first is a bodily [spiritual body] resurrection, called the resurrection of life (John 5:29). But the second is not a resurrection of life; there is nothing in Rev 20:12-13 that show the resurrected as having life.
    Except the actual wording which makes it clear a group did come to life from the dead and the rest of the dead would not come back to life until after the thousand years. In that chapter we have both the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and "the rest of the dead" who did not die in Christ.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  14. #239

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post

    --when we see that the phrase "the Day of the Lord/IN THAT DAY" is not merely a singular 24-hr day (but includes: 1) the 7-yr trib ["DARK" portion]; 2)
    Nope.

    MARK 13 [19] For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.[20] And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.[21] And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:[22] For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.[23] But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

    {verses 19-23 describe the trib period}
    {verses 24-27 describe the Day of the Lord}

    [24] But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT,[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    In Mark you see the great tribulation period is FOLLOWED by a dark sun and dark moon

    JOEL 2 [10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: THE SUN AND THE MOON SHALL BE DARK, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [11] And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for THE DAY OF THE LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

    JOEL 2 [30] And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. [31] THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND THE TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COME.

    In Joel we find the sun will be darkened and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord

    ACTS 2[19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: [20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE THAT GREAT AND NOTABLE DAY OF THE LORD COME:

    As found in Joel; found in the book of Acts

    There can be no doubt. Joel and Mark and Acts are speaking of the same event. The book of Acts & Joel says the the sun will be darkened BEFORE the "day of the Lord". Mark says the sun will be darkened AFTER the tribulation. How can anyone claim the great tribulation period to be part of the "day of the Lord" if the "day of the Lord" doesnt begin till AFTER the tribulation?

  15. #240
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Brother, the saints will receive immortality and eternal life before the GWTJ when the Book of Life is opened.
    Your unsupported opinion.

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