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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #271

    Cool Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually Rev 21:4 ONLY has no death in the NJ.
    1 Cor 15:54-56 ONLY has no death for those who are in Christ.
    Is everyone clothed in immortality? No certainly not.
    Those raised for the GWToJ are NOT clothed in immortality, for that is to have eternal life, but ONLY those God gives eternal life will have immortality.
    Thanks FHG, I repped for answering this for me. I don't see how Keraz can't visualize a resurrection, for we saints, to reign on earth as immortals (Rev. 5:10).
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  2. #272
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    He isn't in heaven when the last trumpet sounds...he goes elsewhere which is where the living are rapture/gathered to which is the clouds of the Earth and he doesn't stay there either he continues downward.



    He isn't in heaven when the last trumpet sounds...he goes elsewhere which is where the living are rapture/gathered to which is the clouds of the Earth and he doesn't stay there either he continues downward.
    I suppose you can make it mean wherever you want... Maybe He meant we'll meet Him at Burger King?
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

  3. #273
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Yes EXACTLY.
    When Jesus spoke the words He was NOT in heaven.
    However He went away to prepare a place for us.

    The question then is simply what is that place?
    The simple answer is that it is the New Jerusalem.

    Where is it?
    Well scripture tells us that we will be where Jesus IS. Not where He was, but IS.
    Jesus will be on earth, and so the place, the NJ will also be on earth.

    Does scripture state this?
    Certainly:
    Rev 21:2* And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.*
    Rev 21:3* And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

    This states WHEN we will dwell with God, and where. It is ON earth in the NJ once Jesus returns.
    "I am GOING to prepare a place for you..." Clearly He wasn't referring to where He was at the time!
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

  4. #274
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Since I find it not plausible to have immortals dwelling together with mortals on the Millennial earth, I surmise that Christ and his glorified Church will return to heaven
    This is where you go off, away from anything scripture states. There is no reason to surmise this, nor is there any support that there is any issue with immortal;s dwelling with mortals....scripture declares the immortals will rule over the mortal nations. Not from afar either.

    ---since glorified bodies may be able to move about, like angels, from earth to heaven. Remember Jacob's ladder, with angels ascending and descending?
    I'd drop the "surmising". Rev 20 describes Jerusalem and the camp of the saints so the immortal saints live here on Earth, not traveling back and forth.

    Remember that when Jesus rose from the dead, he came and went at will?
    That is also not biblical. He rose, spent time with the disciples and when it was time he returned to heaven. There is no such "he came and went at will".

    So might we do the same after we have returned with Christ from heaven? We just may ascend back up to heaven to reign with Christ on heavenly thrones? But in all honestly, I just don't know!
    Yeah this idea of imagining all sorts of things happening is a huge problem when it comes to bible study. It introduces imagined and surmised things that the text does not describe, or against what the text describes.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  5. #275
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    I suppose you can make it mean wherever you want...
    What I said is based on what scripture describes. Anything else is more like the Burger King scenario you spoke of.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  6. #276
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    "I am GOING to prepare a place for you..." Clearly He wasn't referring to where He was at the time!
    That's concerning those that would die before the second coming. At the second coming Christ leaves heaven to live on the Earth to rule over the nations until the thousand years are over. Forcing that verse to have anything to do with the rapture or where Christ will be after the second coming is simply in error.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  7. #277
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Yes EXACTLY.
    When Jesus spoke the words He was NOT in heaven.
    However He went away to prepare a place for us.

    The question then is simply what is that place?
    The simple answer is that it is the New Jerusalem.

    Where is it?
    Well scripture tells us that we will be where Jesus IS. Not where He was, but IS.
    Jesus will be on earth, and so the place, the NJ will also be on earth.

    Does scripture state this?
    Certainly:
    Rev 21:2* And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.*
    Rev 21:3* And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

    This states WHEN we will dwell with God, and where. It is ON earth in the NJ once Jesus returns.
    No reason to disagree with any of this since this is exactly what Scriptures indicate. I don't know why anyone would want to argue against what these Scriptures plainly state?

  8. #278
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    It will be as I posted in #241, all as the Bible tells us. Why believe anything different?
    Can you provide any valid and scriptural reason for anyone to be 'glorified' or made immortal, before the GWT?
    The only way you might be correct is if the thousand years precede the 2nd coming, such as Amils believe. But if you instead believe the thousand years follows the 2nd coming, such as Premils believe, your conclusions are nonsensical in that case. The last trump is when one puts on immortality. The last trump involves the 2nd coming, not the GWTJ some thousand years after the 2nd coming.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    The only way you might be correct is if the thousand years precede the 2nd coming, such as Amils believe. But if you instead believe the thousand years follows the 2nd coming, such as Premils believe, your conclusions are nonsensical in that case. The last trump is when one puts on immortality. The last trump involves the 2nd coming, not the GWTJ some thousand years after the 2nd coming.
    The Last Trump is the end of Gods decreed time for mankind, not at the Return, which will be at the 6000 year point.
    Can you provide and scripture that say there will be a Trumpet sound when Jesus Returns? Do not confuse that glorious Day with the great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, as described in Joel 2 and elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    The only way you might be correct is if the thousand years precede the 2nd coming, such as Amils believe. But if you instead believe the thousand years follows the 2nd coming, such as Premils believe, your conclusions are nonsensical in that case. The last trump is when one puts on immortality. The last trump involves the 2nd coming, not the GWTJ some thousand years after the 2nd coming.
    The Last Trump is the end of Gods decreed time for mankind, not at the Return, which will be at the 6000 year point.
    Can you provide and scripture that say there will be a Trumpet sound when Jesus Returns? Do not confuse that glorious Day with the great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, as described in Joel 2 and elsewhere.

  10. #280
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Randyk, You are an intelligent person, you desire the truth but are trapped by long held beliefs that tie you.
    No, not trapped, but always willing to listen, particularly to Scriptures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    I point out scriptures that plainly detail what God has planned for our future. You and all the others who have been taught false theories and ideas that simply are not found in scripture, must seriously reconsider your beliefs, or be caught unawares and unprepared for all that must come.
    Brother, in case you haven't noticed--we *all* use Scriptures! This is no guarantee that we will see eye to eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    Regarding immortality; Just think what a confused situation it would be to have people around in their spiritual bodies during the Millennium. This idea does not fit with what we are told; how near the end, Satan will be released and will again deceive the nations. Revelation 20:7-10
    Actually, this is exactly what I said, that I'm uncomfortable with the idea of immortals and mortals living in the same space. Perhaps you don't really understand my position? I believe that the Christians throughout the ages, including the OT saints, will be transformed in a second of time, at the coming of Christ. Then we may enter into another dimension--perhaps heaven--and reign there until the end of the Millennium. At that time we will all enter into the eternal era of earth, in which all people will live on earth in immortal bodies, with the wicked removed to some other location.

    What kind of deception am I trapped in, brother?

  11. #281
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    This is where you go off, away from anything scripture states. There is no reason to surmise this, nor is there any support that there is any issue with immortal;s dwelling with mortals....scripture declares the immortals will rule over the mortal nations. Not from afar either.
    I was just "surmising," brother--I really don't know. You may be right. I've never seen a situation where immortals live together with mortals, except where Jesus temporarily appeared among his disciples following his resurrection. Since Jesus didn't stay long, I don't know why we, as immortals, would want to remain among mortals either?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq
    I'd drop the "surmising". Rev 20 describes Jerusalem and the camp of the saints so the immortal saints live here on Earth, not traveling back and forth.
    I like to "surmise." Let me do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq
    That is also not biblical. He rose, spent time with the disciples and when it was time he returned to heaven. There is no such "he came and went at will".
    So you think his Father dragged him about against his will?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq
    Yeah this idea of imagining all sorts of things happening is a huge problem when it comes to bible study. It introduces imagined and surmised things that the text does not describe, or against what the text describes.
    Nothing wrong with imagining things we don't yet fully understand. By the process of imagination God may choose to fill in the blanks?

  12. #282
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I've never seen a situation where immortals live together with mortals
    Read Rev 20 from the start to, well, anywhere in the chapter. The end of Rev 2 and somewhere in Rev 5 also speak of this same time period but Rev 20 will provide the most info on immortals and mortals living on the same planet.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  13. #283
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Read Rev 20 from the start to, well, anywhere in the chapter. The end of Rev 2 and somewhere in Rev 5 also speak of this same time period but Rev 20 will provide the most info on immortals and mortals living on the same planet.
    It does seem that mortals will continue into Eternity. But they cannot enter the city; only those whose names are Written in the Book of Life. Revelation 21:26-27
    There is nothing, though, that shows immortal people on earth during the Millennium.

    Randyk asks: what kind of deception am I in?
    I don't know, but if you are deceived in any way, then it isn't for want of trying to establish the truth. I place myself in this category.

    Sadly, there are many others who refuse to consider changing their views, despite having Bible truths shown to them. They actively promote and teach their ideas and theories.
    This may result in a loss of rewards and possibly in extreme cases their Salvation. James 3:1 tells us how all who teach will be more severely judged.

  14. #284
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The question is whether Jesus returned to heaven after meeting with the raptured church in the air or did he actually set his foot on earth at that point?

    I believe that his receiving of the saints in the air was in fulfilment of his promise, vide: John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    But did Jesus set his foot on earth then? I don't think so!!!

    1. Rev 1:7 says that ALL eyes shall see him during his glorious return.
    2. This contrasts with the rapture which the wicked left-behind will not see.
    3. There is a strong indication that the events of Rev 19 occurred after the resurrection/rapture.

    Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

    People don't live in heaven, only God, his angels and spirit beings, like the 24 elders. However, the above specifically said "people" therefore this to me, is indicative that it's referring to the risen/raptured church that Jesus took back to heaven briefly prior to his actual glorious return (Rev 19:11-16).

    4. Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

    In conjunction with v-1 I believe that the "wife" that is ready for the marriage of the Lamb is the glorified church now in heaven. After the marriage, the church (now same as the angels) form part of Jesus Christ' retinue on his glorious return to earth. First stop, Armageddon.
    Your point 2 is specifically a pretrib claim. Nowhere does scripture say that he Rapture is not seen.
    Point 3 actually shows Jesus leaving heaven, which is when the trumpet is blown and the rapture then occurs. Again you are going on pretrib thinking which requires the saints to be in the 3rd heaven already.

    What you seem to suggest is Jesus comes down to the clouds, has a secret Rapture and then returns to heaven with the saints and then comes again a third time - all pretrib nonsense.

    Your point 4 actually should help you get things right. Jesus is the Bridegroom which requires him to leave His home (heaven) and go to where the Bride is (earth) and get her and take her to His new home (NJ).
    There is no glorified church in heaven. The church is Raptured, which is when the Dead are glorified, and the living also - there is no event before that when the Church is glorified.

    Part of the problem is in your translation on Rev 19:1
    After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out, (ESV)

    You have it as "people", so I guess this is from the NKJV or may be GNT.
    However the word is not for people, but simple a large group, ie crowd or multitude. This could mean people or it could mean angels.

  15. #285
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    No reason to disagree with any of this since this is exactly what Scriptures indicate. I don't know why anyone would want to argue against what these Scriptures plainly state?
    Long time divaD.
    Hope all is well.

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