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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #286
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    "I am GOING to prepare a place for you..." Clearly He wasn't referring to where He was at the time!
    Correct, we agree.
    Also it was not only for those who were alive at the time, but for all Christians BEFORE He returns.

    However what does He say about where He will be?
    John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    This verse states unequivocally where that place will be. Where He IS, so we also will be.
    And where will He be?
    This verse tells us that He is coming again. IOW He will come to the earth.
    So the place He has gone to prepare is NOT the place where He will be. His promise is He is COMING BACK, and we will then be with Him.
    So the place He has prepared will be on earth where He will be.

    Quite simple statement when you get that Jesus is coming back. However if you don't see Him coming back then you will have an alternative idea.

  2. #287
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Thanks FHG, I repped for answering this for me. I don't see how Keraz can't visualize a resurrection, for we saints, to reign on earth as immortals (Rev. 5:10).
    Thanks for the rep. I get where Keraz is coming from - basically when a statement is specific, then it is taken as exclusive, so for example Rev 20:4 speaks specifically of those martyred during the GT, therefore the idea is that this is EXCLUSIVE to those who are so martyred. They then say, when an idea is not specific, that it is inclusive, so he takes 1 Cor 15:54 as inclusive of everyone, and does the same with Rev 21:4. This means he ignores the CONTEXT in every case, and fails to note that 1 Cor 15:54 is specifically about Christians, and that Rev 21:4 is specifically about the NJ where God is dwelling. If he were to connect with Isaiah 65:19 he would recognise this truth.
    These are basic failings of all students of the Bible. It is fair enough to state that a passage ONLY mentions a specific group, but by itself this does not mean no one else will also partake. The question is whether other scriptures mention others who also are resurrected.

  3. #288
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Thanks for the rep. I get where Keraz is coming from - basically when a statement is specific, then it is taken as exclusive, so for example Rev 20:4 speaks specifically of those martyred during the GT, therefore the idea is that this is EXCLUSIVE to those who are so martyred. They then say, when an idea is not specific, that it is inclusive, so he takes 1 Cor 15:54 as inclusive of everyone, and does the same with Rev 21:4. This means he ignores the CONTEXT in every case, and fails to note that 1 Cor 15:54 is specifically about Christians, and that Rev 21:4 is specifically about the NJ where God is dwelling. If he were to connect with Isaiah 65:19 he would recognise this truth.
    These are basic failings of all students of the Bible. It is fair enough to state that a passage ONLY mentions a specific group, but by itself this does not mean no one else will also partake. The question is whether other scriptures mention others who also are resurrected.
    What I do NOT do, is overlay scriptures with a preconceived belief and force it to fit that theory.
    Of course 1 Cor 15 is about Christians, and verses 50-56 are specifically about the GWTJ after the Millennium. Irrefutably proved by only then is Death no more.

    Revelation 20:4 clarifies just who will participate in that resurrection, mentioned elsewhere as Christians. Never said to be ALL Christians.
    The verse of Daniel 12:13 clearly says he will 'sleep' in his grave until the end of days, or the end of the age, which surely means after the GWTJ.

    So it is a false belief that anyone will receive 'glorified bodies' or immortality, before the GWTJ. As for humans going to live in heaven, that is simply a fairy tale and cannot happen.

  4. #289
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    What I do NOT do, is overlay scriptures with a preconceived belief and force it to fit that theory.
    Of course 1 Cor 15 is about Christians, and verses 50-56 are specifically about the GWTJ after the Millennium. Irrefutably proved by only then is Death no more.
    You claim you do not overlay, yet that is EXACTLY what you are doing in 1 Cor 15:50 -56 which are NOT about the GWToJ after the MK. It makes NO mention o fthe MK nor the GWToJ.
    Death is stated as no more ONLY for those who have put on immortality. Who is it that it states puts on immortality in this passage? Those who are in Christ. They are the ONLY ONES.

    SO you are the one trying to force a theory CONTRARY to what is plainly stated.

    Revelation 20:4 clarifies just who will participate in that resurrection, mentioned elsewhere as Christians. Never said to be ALL Christians.
    The verse of Daniel 12:13 clearly says he will 'sleep' in his grave until the end of days, or the end of the age, which surely means after the GWTJ.

    So it is a false belief that anyone will receive 'glorified bodies' or immortality, before the GWTJ. As for humans going to live in heaven, that is simply a fairy tale and cannot happen.
    Rev 20:4 is NOT an EXCLUSIVE group. It does not say ONLY those who are martyed will be raised from the dead.
    1 Thess 4 states UNEQUIVOCALLY that the dead IN Christ are raised to life when He returns which is at the START of the MK.
    This is confirmed in 1 Cor 15 and so it is not a false belief but a very clear statement in scripture.

    As for Daniel 12:13, that is about Daniel who is NOT a Christian. My understanding is that he will be raised at the GWToJ.

  5. #290

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    How can you say that? Most Christians believe that the 1 Cor 15 event is the Rapture of the Church.........
    Yeah, the MOST believe that. But there will be no strenght in numbers when Christ returns.

    LUKE 12 [31] But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.[32] FEAR NOT, LITTLE FLOCK; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

    only a little flock will enter the kingdom {saved}

    MATT.7 [13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,and many there be which go in thereat:[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life,and FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.

    few there be that find it

    MATT.7 [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[22] MANY WILL SAY to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

    In footnotes of the KJB, iniquity equals lawlessness. You can find this in 2 THES. 2 verse 7. And the many have come in the name of JESUS saying we need not keep GODS 10 commandments.

    LUKE 13 [23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: FOR MANY, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

    Jesus himself tells us that “the many” will not enter the Kingdom. And he explains why. They are workers of iniquity. They do not keep Gods law. HIS 10 commandments.

    ISAIAH 24 [3] The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.[4] The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.[5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, BROKEN THE EVERLASTING COVENANT.[6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, AND FEW MEN LEFT.

    Well, here we are. The BOTTOM LINE. The DAY OF THE LORD (when Christ returns) and again the Word says that only a few will be saved to the kingdom.

    LEV.24 [8] EVERY SABBATH he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by AN EVERLASTING COVENANT.

    Is this the everlasting covenant that they broke?

    JEREMIAH 16 [19] O Lord, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, THE GENTILES shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

    In Jeremiah we find what will happen to most gentiles when Jesus returns.

  6. #291

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    Sorry ForHisglory i guess i could have worded that better. But yeah, theres 2 big resurrections left and yet to come.

    1THES.4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    When 1Thes.4 takes place, what really happens? The rapturist would have you to believe we fly off to heaven. What do the scriptures say? Keep in mind that many Rapturist claim youll find nothing of the so called rapture in the book of the prophets {the old testament} but.... Surely thats not true


    AMOS 3 [7] Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.


    EZEK.37
    [12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, and bring you into the land of Israel.
    [13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

    Theres THE DEAD IN CHRIST who rise first (1Thes.4). The first resurrection. But..... there not headin for heaven.

    [21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will GATHER THEM on every side, and BRING THEM INTO THEIR OWN LAND:

    Its the gathering of Gods people, THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AT HIS COMING. The gathering will be done in the twinkling of an eye. Not by public transit. And were all headin for the land of Israel as promised in the Word.

    [24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
    [25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

    There are many that claim that this scripture is speaking about Isreal becoming a nation in 1948. Not so. They do not have one Shepherd over them. Nor is Christs tabernacle in their midst.

    [26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will SET MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE. [27] MY TABERNACLE ALSO SHALL BE WITH THEM: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Verses 26 and 27. “And so shall we ever be with the Lord” {1Thes.4 v17}. Its quite obvious that 1Thes.4 and Ezek.37 are speaking of the same event. No so called rapture. But the gathering of Gods people to the kingdom
    Will any of you Rapturist please explain Ezek.27? It is a future resurrection. Theres only 2 left. Its not the great white. Only one left. 1Cor.15. Wheres the Word say we are going at this event.

  7. #292

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Im sorry. I meant Ezek.37

  8. #293

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    ^ BOWnQUIVER, I thought I already addressed Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 [context vv.1-19, etc...] in this thread (perhaps it was another thread??), but Ezekiel 37:1-forward is not referring to a "bodily/physical resurrection [FROM THE DEAD (literal, physical DEATH)] but Israel coming up out of "the graveyard of nations, where scattered" (just as in Daniel 12:1-4 [distinct from v.13!]; Romans 11:15[25]; Isaiah 26:16-21 [note the "birth pangs"]; Hosea 5:15-6:3 [note the "in their affliction, they will seek Me..."]; John 6:39 [distinct from verse 40!]… ALL re: ISRAEL's "future"; not referring to after they have "physically DIED" )

  9. #294

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    ^ BOWnQUIVER, I thought I already addressed Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 [context vv.1-19, etc...] in this thread (perhaps it was another thread??), but Ezekiel 37:1-forward is not referring to a "bodily/physical resurrection [FROM THE DEAD (literal, physical DEATH)] but Israel coming up out of "the graveyard of nations,
    If your speaking about the Jews returning to Israel from 1948 on, your wrong about that. Alls ya gotta do is keep reading Zeke 37 to know that.

    Ezekiel 37:24 (KJV)
    24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

    Do they have one Shepherd? Not yet!

    Ezekiel 37:25-26 (KJV)
    25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
    26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

    Is it peaceful in Jerusalem? Not yet!

    Ezekiel 37:27-28 (KJV)
    27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

    Is Jesus now dwelling in the midst of them? Not yet!

  10. #295

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.


    PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! Zeke 37 speaks of a resurrection {1Cor.15?}. There are only 2 general resurrections left according to the new testament. One at the 1Cor.15 event {called the rapture by many} and one at the great white throne. And they are not fliting off to heaven as the Rapturist claim but are takin to Israel


    MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.


    PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! It happens right after the tribulation period. On the Day of the Lord. And when they are gathered {in the twinkling of an eye} they are brought into the land of Israel {Ezek.37v12}. The Rapturist claim we are flitting off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event but you will not find that anywhere in scripture.

  11. #296
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    ^ BOWnQUIVER, I thought I already addressed Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 [context vv.1-19, etc...] in this thread (perhaps it was another thread??), but Ezekiel 37:1-forward is not referring to a "bodily/physical resurrection [FROM THE DEAD (literal, physical DEATH)] but Israel coming up out of "the graveyard of nations, where scattered" (just as in Daniel 12:1-4 [distinct from v.13!]; Romans 11:15[25]; Isaiah 26:16-21 [note the "birth pangs"]; Hosea 5:15-6:3 [note the "in their affliction, they will seek Me..."]; John 6:39 [distinct from verse 40!]… ALL re: ISRAEL's "future"; not referring to after they have "physically DIED" )
    This I agree with.
    Who is the Israel of God today? We Christians, Jew and Gentile, we are the Lord's people, upon whom He will pour out His Spirit. Ezekiel 37:14 And we are the people who will occupy all of the holy land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

  12. #297
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You claim you do not overlay, yet that is EXACTLY what you are doing in 1 Cor 15:50 -56 which are NOT about the GWToJ after the MK. It makes NO mention o fthe MK nor the GWToJ.
    Death is stated as no more ONLY for those who have put on immortality. Who is it that it states puts on immortality in this passage? Those who are in Christ. They are the ONLY ONES.

    SO you are the one trying to force a theory CONTRARY to what is plainly stated.


    Rev 20:4 is NOT an EXCLUSIVE group. It does not say ONLY those who are martyed will be raised from the dead.
    1 Thess 4 states UNEQUIVOCALLY that the dead IN Christ are raised to life when He returns which is at the START of the MK.
    This is confirmed in 1 Cor 15 and so it is not a false belief but a very clear statement in scripture.

    As for Daniel 12:13, that is about Daniel who is NOT a Christian. My understanding is that he will be raised at the GWToJ.
    1 Corinthians 15: 50-56 does not say when it takes place. We get that detail from Revelation 21:4 that proves it is a GWTJ prophecy.
    If you think otherwise, explain how immortality can be given before Judgement or the Book of Life is opened.

    Revelation 20:4 says it is those who for the sake of God's Word and their witness to Jesus have been beheaded, all those who had not worshipped the beast and have refused his mark on the forehead or hand.. They came to life again and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
    Pretty clear isn't it? Your idea that other Christians will rise at that time as well, is simply not there and will not happen.

    Daniel was a man of God. What are we Christians? We are the people of God and scripture is clear; there is only one people of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, +

    You may have just enough time to reconsider your beliefs, to conform to the truths of the Bible, before it's too late.

  13. #298
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    1 Corinthians 15: 50-56 does not say when it takes place. We get that detail from Revelation 21:4 that proves it is a GWTJ prophecy.
    How can it prove it is a GWToJ prophecy if it makes no such mention?
    1 Cor 15 does say when it takes place, for it states, first Jesus, then us (when this happens), then the rest of the dead (which is then Rev 20:11).

    If you think otherwise, explain how immortality can be given before Judgement or the Book of Life is opened.
    Who is given eternal life?
    We don't receive immortality because of judgement, but the gospel states another truth altogether.
    If you don't have your foundational truth in the Gospel then what can be said?
    We receive immortality because He gives it to us.

    Revelation 20:4 says it is those who for the sake of God's Word and their witness to Jesus have been beheaded, all those who had not worshipped the beast and have refused his mark on the forehead or hand.. They came to life again and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
    Pretty clear isn't it? Your idea that other Christians will rise at that time as well, is simply not there and will not happen.
    This specifies a group who will get immortality, note the second death has no power over them, yet there is no GWToJ nor the Book of Life.
    Further this is NOT an exclusive statement. It is saying those who suffered will surely receive what is due them.
    That does not negate others receiving what is also promised to them.

    Daniel was a man of God. What are we Christians? We are the people of God and scripture is clear; there is only one people of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, +
    You may have just enough time to reconsider your beliefs, to conform to the truths of the Bible, before it's too late.
    Daniel was indeed a man of God, as was Abraham and David. So? That does NOT make them Christians. You seem to have this need to make Jews into Christians and Christians into Jews.
    They are not and we are not.
    I conform as carefully as possible to the truth of scripture.

  14. #299

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    This I agree with.
    Who is the Israel of God today? We Christians, Jew and Gentile, we are the Lord's people, upon whom He will pour out His Spirit. Ezekiel 37:14 And we are the people who will occupy all of the holy land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26
    You and I are defining "Israel" differently.

    I believe that ALL 73 usages of the word "Israel" in the NT refer to "Israel"... I do not believe the phrase "the Israel of God" (Gal6:16) refers to "the Church which is His body" (in its entirety) but to "those of Israel who BELIEVED [or WILL BELIEVE]"; and that one of the references I supplied in that post contains the phrase regarding the "they are enemies for your sakes, but as touching the election they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." Romans 11:27-28 (in the vv.25-29[15] section, I gave). "They," here, referring to Israel. [Rom9:26/Hos1:10=Israel; whereas Rom9:25/Hos2:23b=the Gentiles]

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post

    Daniel was indeed a man of God, as was Abraham and David. So? That does NOT make them Christians. You seem to have this need to make Jews into Christians
    I believe all believing Jews were/are Christians, (even if they didn't know that term back then).

    There are two types of humans, and everyone from Adam forward; apply to one of the two groups.

    You are written in the Lamb's book of life, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and saved from your sins and iniquities through what He accomplished on the cross....

    or you are lost and without hope in unrepentant sin and wickedness.

    When Jesus said, "Blessed are those who believe, and have not seen"....He was talking as much about Job and Isaiah, as He was talking about you and me.

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