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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #301
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    I believe all believing Jews were/are Christians, (even if they didn't know that term back then).

    There are two types of humans, and everyone from Adam forward; apply to one of the two groups.

    You are written in the Lamb's book of life, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and saved from your sins and iniquities through what He accomplished on the cross....

    or you are lost and without hope in unrepentant sin and wickedness.

    When Jesus said, "Blessed are those who believe, and have not seen"....He was talking as much about Job and Isaiah, as He was talking about you and me.
    Spot on David.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  2. #302

    Cool Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    ^ BOWnQUIVER, I thought I already addressed Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 [context vv.1-19, etc...] in this thread (perhaps it was another thread??), but Ezekiel 37:1-forward is not referring to a "bodily/physical resurrection [FROM THE DEAD (literal, physical DEATH)] but Israel coming up out of "the graveyard of nations, where scattered" (just as in Daniel 12:1-4 [distinct from v.13!]; Romans 11:15[25]; Isaiah 26:16-21 [note the "birth pangs"]; Hosea 5:15-6:3 [note the "in their affliction, they will seek Me..."]; John 6:39 [distinct from verse 40!]… ALL re: ISRAEL's "future"; not referring to after they have "physically DIED" )
    DWM, you need to make your posts more clear. If you say Eze. 37 refers to physical Israel (like flesh and blood people) you are right on. That will be God restoring physical Israel after the return of Christ. They will then know Him as Messiah.

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    Yeah, the MOST believe that. But there will be no strenght in numbers when Christ returns.

    LUKE 12 [31] But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.[32] FEAR NOT, LITTLE FLOCK; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

    only a little flock will enter the kingdom {saved}

    MATT.7 [13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,and many there be which go in thereat:[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life,and FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.

    few there be that find it

    MATT.7 [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[22] MANY WILL SAY to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

    In footnotes of the KJB, iniquity equals lawlessness. You can find this in 2 THES. 2 verse 7. And the many have come in the name of JESUS saying we need not keep GODS 10 commandments.

    LUKE 13 [23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: FOR MANY, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

    Jesus himself tells us that “the many” will not enter the Kingdom. And he explains why. They are workers of iniquity. They do not keep Gods law. HIS 10 commandments.

    ISAIAH 24 [3] The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.[4] The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.[5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, BROKEN THE EVERLASTING COVENANT.[6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, AND FEW MEN LEFT.

    Well, here we are. The BOTTOM LINE. The DAY OF THE LORD (when Christ returns) and again the Word says that only a few will be saved to the kingdom.

    LEV.24 [8] EVERY SABBATH he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by AN EVERLASTING COVENANT.

    Is this the everlasting covenant that they broke?

    JEREMIAH 16 [19] O Lord, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, THE GENTILES shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

    In Jeremiah we find what will happen to most gentiles when Jesus returns.
    Do you keep the 10 Commandments?

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.


    PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! Zeke 37 speaks of a resurrection {1Cor.15?}. There are only 2 general resurrections left according to the new testament. One at the 1Cor.15 event {called the rapture by many} and one at the great white throne. And they are not fliting off to heaven as the Rapturist claim but are takin to Israel


    MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.


    PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! It happens right after the tribulation period. On the Day of the Lord. And when they are gathered {in the twinkling of an eye} they are brought into the land of Israel {Ezek.37v12}. The Rapturist claim we are flitting off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event but you will not find that anywhere in scripture.
    I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, but I do know that Eze. 37 is speaking of a physical flesh and blood people and not the caught-up saints of 1 Thess 4 or 1 Cor 15. The physical restoration of Israel will be just that and does not pertain to the resurrected Christians that will rule with Christ on earth. Oh, and the Jews there now from 1948 have nothing to do with God's restoration. They shouldn't even be called Israel.

    For FHG, David Taylor has a point about Daniel and the OT saints being Christian because they had the same HS.

    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  3. #303

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    DWM, you need to make your posts more clear. If you say Eze. 37 refers to physical Israel (like flesh and blood people) you are right on. That will be God restoring physical Israel after the return of Christ. They will then know Him as Messiah.
    My apologies for being unclear. (I do try my best to be clear.)
    I believe Daniel 12 is covering the 2nd half of the 7-yr trib, thus "thy people" (Israel) is the context, and vv.1-4 is what THEY ['the WISE' (OF THEM)] will go on to DO (DURING that specific time frame). Additionally, I believe the "ye/you" of the Olivet Discourse is a "consistent 'you'" and a "proleptic 'you'" (meaning, basically, "all those in the future, of the same category"--thus, Jesus was speaking there to those TO WHOM "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" was promised: Israel [futurely, the remnant of Israel who will come to faith WITHIN the trib years and will go on to DO THE "INVITING" of the "guests [plural]" TO THAT promised earthly kingdom/MK])

    I believe "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (especially its INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'") EQUAL the "SEALS" (and "SEAL #1") of Revelation 6... ALL of which FOLLOW our Rapture. Thus, Matthew 24 (any of the Olivet Discourse, for that matter) is NOT speaking to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... and our "Rapture" is not the Subject being covered there.

    Their coming to faith AFTER the trib/7-yrs (upon His "RETURN" to the earth) will/would be too late. Their task (at least for "the WISE [OF THEM]" [Dan12:1-4,10]) is to do the "INVITING" of the "guests [plural]," and is what I see in Matthew 24:14[26:13], Matthew 22:8-14 [v.8's wording correlating with Rev1:1/7:3/etc], Revelation 7 [partly, meaning, part of its effects (same for Matt25:31-34)], Revelation 19:9 [distinct from v.7 regarding "the MARRIAGE" itself, in Heaven, involving solely "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR],"] also Matt25:40 "the least of these My brethren" [on the earth, during the trib] and a number of other passages... One of the problems people have in seeing this, is their mistaking the phrase "the kingdom of the heavens" to be [incorrectly] meaning "UP IN Heaven" as well as [incorrectly] assuming that also will be the location of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (which I firmly believe is the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth), and much more could be said... but I fear that in my attempt to spell it all out in one post, people tend to gloss over and not grasp the points I'm endeavoring to get across in as brief a post as possible (again, my apologies)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    DWM, you need to make your posts more clear. If you say Eze. 37 refers to physical Israel (like flesh and blood people) you are right on. That will be God restoring physical Israel after the return of Christ. They will then know Him as Messiah.
    My apologies for being unclear. (I do try my best to be clear.)
    I believe Daniel 12 is covering the 2nd half of the 7-yr trib, thus "thy people" (Israel) is the context, and vv.1-4 is what THEY ['the WISE' (OF THEM)] will go on to DO (DURING that specific time frame). Additionally, I believe the "ye/you" of the Olivet Discourse is a "consistent 'you'" and a "proleptic 'you'" (meaning, basically, "all those in the future, of the same category"--thus, Jesus was speaking there to those TO WHOM "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" was promised: Israel [futurely, the remnant of Israel who will come to faith WITHIN the trib years and will go on to DO THE "INVITING" of the "guests [plural]" TO THAT promised earthly kingdom/MK])

    I believe "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (especially its INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'") EQUAL the "SEALS" (and "SEAL #1") of Revelation 6... ALL of which FOLLOW our Rapture. Thus, Matthew 24 (any of the Olivet Discourse, for that matter) is NOT speaking to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... and our "Rapture" is not the Subject being covered there.

    Their coming to faith AFTER the trib/7-yrs (upon His "RETURN" to the earth) will/would be too late. Their task (at least for "the WISE [OF THEM]" [Dan12:1-4,10]) is to do the "INVITING" of the "guests [plural]," and is what I see in Matthew 24:14[26:13], Matthew 22:8-14 [v.8's wording correlating with Rev1:1/7:3/etc], Revelation 7 [partly, meaning, part of its effects (same for Matt25:31-34)], Revelation 19:9 [distinct from v.7 regarding "the MARRIAGE" itself, in Heaven, involving solely "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR],"] also Matt25:40 "the least of these My brethren" [on the earth, during the trib] and a number of other passages... One of the problems people have in seeing this, is their mistaking the phrase "the kingdom of the heavens" to be [incorrectly] meaning "UP IN Heaven" as well as [incorrectly] assuming that also will be the location of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (which I firmly believe is the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth), and much more could be said... but I fear that in my attempt to spell it all out in one post, people tend to gloss over and not grasp the points I'm endeavoring to get across in as brief a post as possible (again, my apologies)

  4. #304
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    EQUAL the "SEALS" (and "SEAL #1") of Revelation 6... ALL of which FOLLOW our Rapture.
    All the seals are opened before any trump is given to any of the 7 angels and the rapture happens at the last of the trumps (right after the dead in Christ rise) so the above is incorrect.

    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  5. #305

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not Pretrib Rapture, but I believe we are caught up into the air. That seems to be the equivalent of heaven. In Daniel 7 and in places in the NT, it is described as coming with the clouds. So it is more a being obtained by Christ at his return from heaven. We have to go to where he is in order to return with him.

    It is said in 1 Cor 15 that we put on spiritual bodies, which is comparable to a heavenly body. In order to do so we go to be with Christ in heaven before we return with him from heaven.

    But it all takes place in a second. So it is hardly a vacation trip. And it is not a destination. Rather, it is a means to an end. We are instantly changed so that we may participate with Christ in his 2nd Coming to earth.
    I like your answer Randyk. It is simple and easy to understand. I like these verses about the Rapture, 1Th 4:17* Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.*
    1Th 4:18* Wherefore comfort one another with these words.*"and so shall we ever be with the Lord." That is way good enough for me. I'm going to be with Jesus forever! Hallelujah!

  6. #306

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    All the seals are opened before any trump is given to any of the 7 angels and the rapture happens at the last of the trumps (right after the dead in Christ rise) so the above is incorrect.

    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    As I believe there are a number of different kind of "trumpets" in Scripture (ram's horn versus the 2 silver trumpets [Numbers 10] which are blown in different ways for differing purposes), I believe it is important to start with ascertaining how Paul uses the word "trumpet" elsewhere [besides our Rapture reference] in his epistles before venturing beyond that to how the word "trumpet" is used outside of his epistles [the general rule of thumb, for interpreting contextually].

    So, to make this post short (and hopefully more easily understood by the readers), I do not believe the "GREAT trumpet" (Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13 [end of trib]) is at the same time nor serves the same purpose as "the LAST trumpet" NOR "the 7 Trumpets" (which I believe [the 7] are JUDGMENT-related trumpets, which will occur during the same span of time that the 2 Witnesses will have their "testimony" DURING the trib yrs [see also Rev11:10b], and are unrelated to the PURPOSE of our Rapture [which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN), not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints]).

    Where 2Th2:1 says "our episynagoges [noun] UNTO HIM," I see as relating more closely (out of the SEVERAL distinct ways and purposes in the Numbers 10:1-10 passage regarding the "2 silver trumpets" and their VARIOUS purposes) with that of verse 4, if any [perhaps, "in TYPE"], which verse says, "And if they blow with one, then the princes, heads of the thousands of Israel shall gather UNTO THEE" [Moses being the "thee" in this text; and with Jesus having been said to be "like unto Moses" in other passages (so, Moses being a "type" in this way perhaps also)].

    So no, I disagree that the "7 [judgment] Trumpets" of Revelation have anything whatsoever to do with "the Church which is His body" and our Rapture (however, I can see how John's hearing "the FIRST voice I heard was as it were of a trumpet..." in Rev4:1 BEFORE the "SEALS" are opened in chpt 5, would parallel our Rapture, especially because this is THE VERY SAME SEQUENCE I see revealed in both 2Th2 and 1Th4-5 which are addressed to/for/about "the Church which is His body" [see again Eph1:20-23 WHEN]).

  7. #307
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    As I believe there are a number of different kind of "trumpets" in Scripture
    Not in end times Christianity. There are only 7, and the last one is the 7th.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Not in end times Christianity. There are only 7, and the last one is the 7th.
    Yes there is. There are the 7 trumpets and then there is the Last Trumpet which would be an 8th IF it were part of the 7, or it could simply be 1 trumpet on its own.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    For FHG, David Taylor has a point about Daniel and the OT saints being Christian because they had the same HS.
    They (possibly more importantly) have faith in the SAME God.
    We worship the same God is 100% correct.
    However there is a very simple question as to what makes someone a Christian.
    The answer is someone who believes in Christ (clue is in the name).
    Now all the heroes of faith as mentioned in Hebrews 11 did NOT obtain what they were seeking (but will one day).
    This is because they did not have Christ.
    We have Christ and so are sheep (like them) but of a different fold.
    God's plan is to unite us as one.

    Now we have a number of reasons to conclude that Daniel (et al.) are NOT Christians.
    The first and possibly clearest is because Jesus said the least in the Kingdom of God was greater than John the Baptist. John the Baptist was the last of the OT saints (that we know about).
    He died before Jesus and though he had the Holy Spirit from birth (Luke 1:15), yet Jesus did NOT consider John as being in the KoG.
    Jesus had not yet died and so the first person to enter the KoG it seems was the bandit on the cross.

    So I take Jesus' statement about who is and who isn't counted as being in the KoG quite seriously. There was a thread on this...

    There are more reasons though, which is that was Daniel born from above, or was he simply empowered by the Holy Spirit? Was he a new creation, had he died with Christ etc? I would say the answer is no, he was not born again, he had not died with Christ.

    Again we note in Dan 12 that Daniel is told he will rest until the Last Day (which is a reference to the GWToJ) however ALL Christians are raised before that Day. Now it could be (as some might argue) that the reality of Christians being raised before others simply isn't stated in the OT and therefore we can't read too much into this. What I read from this is that Daniel is being assured that when he dies and is raised for judgement he will be judged as righteous, and so is being told not to worry.
    The defacto state of all mankind is that they die, and then are raised for judgement.
    The ONLY people for whom we are told this is different is those who are ALREADY new creations, having accepted His death in place of their own (something Daniel and others could not do.)

  10. #310
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    I believe all believing Jews were/are Christians, (even if they didn't know that term back then).
    There are two types of humans, and everyone from Adam forward; apply to one of the two groups.
    You are written in the Lamb's book of life, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and saved from your sins and iniquities through what He accomplished on the cross....
    or you are lost and without hope in unrepentant sin and wickedness.
    When Jesus said, "Blessed are those who believe, and have not seen"....He was talking as much about Job and Isaiah, as He was talking about you and me.
    See my answer to Deade.
    There are NOT two types of humans, only one.
    There is a separation through Jesus into two groups of those who are IN Him, and those who are NOT, but this ONLY applies to those who believe in Him (which no one from Adam until Jesus could do.)
    However off those who are NOT found in Christ there is no separation UNTIL the GWToJ when they are judged and through the judgement either given life or death.

    The NT makes it clear (especially Hebrews 11) but also elsewhere, that God deals with people at different times in different places in different ways, yet all are under Adam and like Adam die.
    There is NO scripture which says a Jew is a Christian or vice versa, if this were so then Paul would not be so zealous to see Jews accept Christ.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Read Rev 20 from the start to, well, anywhere in the chapter. The end of Rev 2 and somewhere in Rev 5 also speak of this same time period but Rev 20 will provide the most info on immortals and mortals living on the same planet.
    I agree that there are some good arguments for believing immortals will somehow be on the Millennial earth. For one thing, we return with Christ to establish his Kingdom here. Secondly, we are told we will reign over the earth.

    So you're on solid ground, in this regard. I just have a problem understanding *how* we will exist here, whether in some multi-dimensional sense, or otherwise?

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gratefull2Him View Post
    I like your answer Randyk. It is simple and easy to understand. I like these verses about the Rapture, 1Th 4:17* Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.*
    1Th 4:18* Wherefore comfort one another with these words.*"and so shall we ever be with the Lord." That is way good enough for me. I'm going to be with Jesus forever! Hallelujah!
    Thank you. Any arguments you may have along this line of thought I would appreciate hearing from you? Some of this material is relatively new for me, meaning in the last few years. Much of what we believe has to do with how we were taught when we were young Christians. But then we sort of have to review it later, for ourselves, to see if it squares with the Scriptures as we understand it.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    However there is a very simple question as to what makes someone a Christian.
    The answer is someone who believes in Christ (clue is in the name).
    Now all the heroes of faith as mentioned in Hebrews 11 did NOT obtain what they were seeking (but will one day).
    This is because they did not have Christ.
    We have Christ and so are sheep (like them) but of a different fold.
    God's plan is to unite us as one.
    God's plan to unite us as one was Calvary; Jesus; He was their unity with us.

    Their faith looking forward to Him; was the same faith we have looking back on what He did for us.

    That the term 'Christian' didn't exist, has no bearing that God's faithful people are one group; not divided, segmented, discontinued subgroups.

    When Hebrews says they did not obtain what they were seeking, is that they lived before the cross; before the incarnation of the Messiah to earth.

    But by their faith, like us, they participate in the same blessings and the same destiny.

    Those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth, include everyone Christ died for, from Adam forward.

    Paul told us specifically, that the OT faithful did have Christ.

    I believe him.

    I Corinthians 10:1 "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."


    Peter taught the same thing, here:

    I Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. "

    When you exclude the OT faithful from the body of Christ, you create disunity with the foundation of His temple of holy stones made without hands.

    Abraham and Job are my brothers in Christ; by their faith and by my faith, we have the same destiny, and the same hope because of what Christ accomplished.

    Job's faith is the same as mine, the same expectation as mine.

    Job 19:25 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. "

    Job had faith in Jesus, so did the disciples, and so do I.

    I John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you"

    You can't begin to get eschatology correct, until you get Jesus and the cross correct, and how that applied to every human that ever lived equally, and as one family; to all who believe.

    When you make the OT faithful some lesser, separate, non-included subgroup, you miss completely what Christ accomplished for them, the same as He accomplished for us.

    Paul summarizes this concept, exactly clear, and exactly perfect here:

    Ephesians 2:13 "in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together

    God has joined us and the prophets together in one body in Christ; there is no argument. If you want to argue, time for a self-check.

  14. #314

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark

    As I believe there are a number of different kind of "trumpets" in Scripture
    Not in end times Christianity. There are only 7, and the last one is the 7th.
    As I've referred to in past posts,

    --I believe the "GREAT trumpet" (Matt24:21-31 / Isaiah 27:12-13) is for the purpose of gathering the believing remnant of Israel (having coming to faith WITHIN the trib years) "TO worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM" [same goes for the context (and timing of) of Isa24:21-23], which, if you recall, I am saying Matt25:40's "the LEAST of these My brethren" (who are NOT the ones BEING judged/separated here [Sheep/goats of the NATIONS (PLURAL)]) ARE THOSE JEWISH FAITHFUL (the believing remnant of Israel having come to faith DURING the trib); THIS trumpet is AFTER the trib

    --I believe the "7 Trumpets" are judgment-related trumpets, and that the "7th Trumpet" parallels (time-wise) the "THIRD WOE" and the "FIRST VIAL," and that 6 more Vials [effects (which involve more than a mere day or two)] will need to unfold upon the earth BEFORE the afore-mentioned "GREAT trumpet" will gather the believing remnant of Israel "TO...AT JERUSALEM" (at the END / at His 'RETURN"-to-the-earth time slot, Rev19)

    --I believe the "LAST trumpet" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (and "our episynagoges UNTO HIM"), and aligns with the "FIRST voice" John heard when he was receiving the Revelation (and 4:1 goes on to tell of the "things which must come to pass" like 1:1 says [and 1:19c], "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... that is, the "future aspects" of the Book [following "this present age [singular]"], from chpt 4-19 describing the 7-yr trib therein)

  15. #315

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    EDIT: "Matt24:29-31" (not 24:21-31")

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