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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #406
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I just want to again point out that Keraz always misleads people with the above quote. Paul is not referring to 1 Corinthians 15:24-26 in verse 54 but instead speaking about a prophesy found in Isaiah 25:8 or Hosea 13:14 which clearly points to second coming timing not GWT timing, Keraz never admits this or quotes these references however because these prophesy is clearly not speaking about The GWTJ. His *proof* is just an obfuscation of the truth.
    How can I mislead the misled? Those who choose to believe false teachings.
    What I point out in #402, is the truth that Victory over Death happens after the Millennium and any idea that immortality can be given before then, is error.

    Struggleisreal; Your premise that 'harpazo' means earthly to heavenly, is not what all those scriptures say at all.
    Specifically its use in 1 Thess 4:17, is simply saying that the Lord's people who survive all that happens before Jesus Returns, will go to where He is at the Return. Confirmed by Matthew 24:30-31. It will be a transportation, in the same manner as Philip was in Acts 8:39

  2. #407

    Cool Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Deade: you seem to misunderstand what I was discussing with ewq. The focus is on those that rise to judgment at the GWTJ. I posited that no living flesh is judged there, ewq disagreed. He believes that they will assume the flesh they had when they were alive, but am not so sure this is true.

    On the other, you claim that God will give them the Holy Spirit to fight Satan - the problem with this view is that by this time, Satan who has already been released from his 1000 years in prison, would have joined the AC and FP in the LoF.
    No, this is concurrent with the little season that Satan will go out to deceive the nations a second time. I feel most won't fall for his lies during the last great day harvest, but some men love darkness rather than light. They, like the demons, have their hearts set on doing evil. The kindest thing for a loving God would be to destroy them along with the evil angels. Most humans will see God's ways are better than Satan's evil ways and choose that.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  3. #408

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    I'm not sure where you're getting this. I mean I know but don't understand how it's confusing. The dead are not dead. To be absent of the body is to be present with the LORD. JC took care of all that in the three days before his resurrection. The alive (quickened) and remaining cannot prevent those who are asleep (unbelievers).

    If you read my posts without looking for a debate, I in know way discredit a carrying up. I merely discredit the pre- vs. the post- , the usage of rapture and the misinformation used to further others to fall away. I would explain with versus but something tells me you've heard the song and dance before and are not allowed to see and hear.

    I'm not sure where you're getting this. I mean I know but don't understand how it's confusing. The dead are not dead. To be absent of the body is to be present with the LORD. JC took care of all that in the three days before his resurrection. The alive (quickened) and remaining cannot prevent those who are asleep (unbelievers).

    If you read my posts without looking for a debate, I in know way discredit a carrying up. I merely discredit the pre- vs. the post- , the usage of rapture and the misinformation used to further others to fall away. I would explain with versus but something tells me you've heard the song and dance before and are not allowed to see and hear.

  4. #409
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Struggleisreal View Post
    I'm not sure where you're getting this. I mean I know but don't understand how it's confusing. The dead are not dead. To be absent of the body is to be present with the LORD. JC took care of all that in the three days before his resurrection. The alive (quickened) and remaining cannot prevent those who are asleep (unbelievers).

    If you read my posts without looking for a debate, I in know way discredit a carrying up. I merely discredit the pre- vs. the post- , the usage of rapture and the misinformation used to further others to fall away. I would explain with versus but something tells me you've heard the song and dance before and are not allowed to see and hear. .
    Paul's statement in 2 Corinthians 5:8, is not promise that we Christians go to be with the Lord when we die. Paul merely says, that would be his desire, but many scriptures tell us this does not happen at all. Eccl 9:3-6

    Regarding a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church. There is no scripture that says the Lord intends to do that for His people in the end times. It would mean a change of His mind, as he has allowed His faithful believers to be killed for their faith, in all the preceding ages. I, the Lord do not change... Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 13:8
    It is those who have believed false theories that are locked into them. Isaiah 29:9-21, 2 Thessalonians 2:11

    Quote Originally Posted by Struggleisreal View Post
    I'm not sure where you're getting this. I mean I know but don't understand how it's confusing. The dead are not dead. To be absent of the body is to be present with the LORD. JC took care of all that in the three days before his resurrection. The alive (quickened) and remaining cannot prevent those who are asleep (unbelievers).

    If you read my posts without looking for a debate, I in know way discredit a carrying up. I merely discredit the pre- vs. the post- , the usage of rapture and the misinformation used to further others to fall away. I would explain with versus but something tells me you've heard the song and dance before and are not allowed to see and hear. .
    Paul's statement in 2 Corinthians 5:8, is not promise that we Christians go to be with the Lord when we die. Paul merely says, that would be his desire, but many scriptures tell us this does not happen at all. Eccl 9:3-6

    Regarding a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church. There is no scripture that says the Lord intends to do that for His people in the end times. It would mean a change of His mind, as he has allowed His faithful believers to be killed for their faith, in all the preceding ages. I, the Lord do not change... Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 13:8
    It is those who have believed false theories that are locked into them. Isaiah 29:9-21, 2 Thessalonians 2:11

  5. #410

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    I have no clue where you're going with this. :-) I think your pride and thirst for battle is confusing you. I'm not even sure you know what I'm talking about. I'm not saying you're wrong or your right cause, well, truly, I'm just confused what you're trying to state and/or correct. Nor am i'm sure where you're going with this....

    I have nothing more for you.

    My previous posts, minus rebuttals with this being still stand to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

    I have no clue where you're going with this. :-) I think your pride and thirst for battle is confusing you. I'm not even sure you know what I'm talking about. I'm not saying you're wrong or your right cause, well, truly, I'm just confused what you're trying to state and/or correct. Nor am i'm sure where you're going with this....

    I have nothing more for you.

    My previous posts, minus rebuttals with this being still stand to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

  6. #411
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Well I have NEVER met anyone with the same position as I have. Though some are starting to think the same way.
    I go by all the words in the Bible, without ignoring a single word Jesus said.
    John 16:15 is not about people but about glory, power and authority.
    John 17:10 though is about people, and is the first verse anyone has given which suggests that someone who is NOT a Christian, but did believe in God, might be part of the Rapture. However it could simply be speaking of the time after the GWToJ, as there is no time constraint within it.

    I am not aware of any simple truths I have missed, as a truth is only a truth when it is taken as meant.
    See now to me you just missed a simple truth in Jesus statement in John 16:15. Even just using John 17:10 ...the point is God said all souls are His:
    Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
    Therefore Jesus is claiming all that are the Fathers.

  7. #412
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    See now to me you just missed a simple truth in Jesus statement in John 16:15. Even just using John 17:10 ...the point is God said all souls are His:
    Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
    Therefore Jesus is claiming all that are the Fathers.
    John 16:15 though is NOT speaking about people but about glory, power and authority. In 17:10 which is part of the same conversation Jesus speaks of people.
    IOW just as God's glory, power and authority is Jesus' so too are the people of God.

    Ezekiel 18:4 though is a different CONTEXT and is speaking not of souls that will receive eternal life, but of all souls, including the sinners.

  8. #413
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    These tell us that both the resurrection of believers and the judgment of the wicked occur on the last day.
    Simple to understand and expect, just as Jesus gave it.
    Nope these do NOT say that.
    It is indeed simple to understand and expect WHEN you read it JUST as Jesus gave it, which is in CONTEXT.

    Yet the Premill view cannot take Jesus' words, and arrange them in any order at all do seem to say there is a premill kingdom after His return; and that all the wicked are not destroyed at His return, and that all people, are resurrected and juged at His return.
    Those things are what Jesus says over a over in all of His teachings.
    My point being, if your view cannot fit with Jesus' teaching on His return, maybe a review needs to occur.
    It would be different if Jesus didn't speak of His return and the characteristics of it, and who was involved, and what would happen....but He did, many many times.
    No, the order you use is the order Jesus gave them.
    John 5:24 & 25 speaks of people who believe (Christians) who do NOT face judgement, then John 5:28 & 29 speaks of those who DO face judgement.
    So the ORDER that Jesus gave is one in which there is a SEPARATION. Christians NOT judged, therefore NOT part of what happens with those who ARE judged.
    It is simple and clear, but you want to ignore these simple straigh forward truths of Jesus and instead take words from other passages which have a different CONTEXT and try to cobble them together another way. Myself I prefer to take it as Jesus gave it in the way He gave it.

    You are the one saying this above statement.
    non-Premillenialists believe that beleivers are both reigning with Jesus now in heavenly places (spiritually); and that at His return we will also reign with Him on the earth (physically). We just believe the Earth will be a much better place than the premill post-2nd coming earth; one without sin and death and wickeness and rebellion, that are characteristics of all of the Premill post-2nd coming views; to greater or lesser degrees.
    Actually many would argue that we are presently reigning (in heavenly places) and that when He returns we would reign on earth. This is not an Amil - Premil division. It is Amils who claim the MK is now, which means reigning on earth now.
    As a Premil I see the earth will be a MUCH, MUCH better place AFTER Jesus returns. However I go with what scripture says the reality will be, which is the NJ which will be perfect, and the NHNE which will be the expansion of His Kingdom to cover the whole earth, which is a gradual process.

    Of course he didn't.
    But when modern man misinterprets the prophets to say and expect things that Jesus and the NT writers wrote contrarily about, then it is the misinterpretation that is the 'wrong'...not the prophets. Isaiah and Ezekiel and Zechariah spoke 100% truth, if you don't misunderstand and misinterpret them to conflict with what Jesus and the NT writers told us.
    Indeed, but you DO make them out to be saying things other than they say, trying to spiritualise all they state.

    You misunderstand Jesus use of the term Judgementt here.
    He means believers will not come under condemnation and wrath; because we are sealed and belong to Him.
    That does not mean we will not be at the final judgement; and not give an acount of the things we did in the body; good or bad. Many scriptures tell that believers will be present at the final judgment. We however; will be rewarded eternal life with Christ as our reward at the judgment, not cast out into the fire as the wicked will be.
    No, I do not misunderstand what Jesus' use of the term is.
    The final judgement (GWToJ) is ONLY about eternal life and the receipt of it or not. Not a single scripture says we will be at that judgement. Yes we will face a judgement but the reward then is NOT eternal life. We will ALREADY have eternal life at the time of the GWToJ. Eternal life is NOT a reward for works, but a gift of His.

    I agree.
    The Holy Spirit teaches us in all truth; and does not bring conflict, if we listen.
    Again, I ask you, what did Jesus teach about His return? He spoke many, many times about it, and what to expect; both for the wicked and for the faithful.
    He taught that Christians do NOT face judgement for eternal life, that we have ALREADY passed from death to life.
    He teaches that there is a judgement for those who do NOT accept Him, which is for eternal life.

  9. #414
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    OK, let's how the text agrees or disagrees with your view.

    Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    1. You said that these people fled to Jerusalem (as in running away from Satan). But the text contradicts this as it says "they [plural] compass/surround the holy city where the saints dwell. Why would God send fire to consume them if they were indeed running from Satan?

    2. v-8 says that Satan deceived them. IOW, they willingly joined forces with Satan and surrounded the holy city.

    3. What you are missing is that those who believe in the Lord's rulership during the MK are those allowed access to the ToL (Rev 21:24; Rev 22:22 'healing of the nations'). IOW, those who believe are incapable of being deceived!

    4. If the language is that they were "burnt by fire" then it could be argued that one could be burnt and live. But the language is "devoured by fire" and it is my contention that given the context, 'devoured' is much stronger than 'burnt' as it leaves no room for life thereafter.
    OK let's work through your 4 points:
    1) I said there are those who are not deceived, who flee. You are confusing them with those who are deceived. Notice verse 8 states Satan goes out to deceive. Is EVERYONE deceived? We don't know from this verse.
    2) See point above, there are those who Satan deceived.
    3) Didn't miss them at all.
    4) No, I am not arguing that at all. Those burnt by fire die.
    What you have TOTALLY missed is found in verse 9. I will highlight it for you:
    Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city

    Notice Satan (and those he deceived) come and surround the NJ. However verse 9 has TWO locations.
    Location One - the camp of the saints
    Location Two - the beloved city

    These two locations are connected but NOT the same. A camp is a temporary dwelling - think refugee camp. The city is the permanent place, with high walls and gates etc.
    The city is built as a dwelling for those who accept Jesus in this age. However the camp is for those who accept Jesus in that age. They do not have a dwelling in the city as Jesus didn't go to build them one. This is ONLY promised for those who are His today.
    The point is that Satan does NOT deceive everyone. He goes to deceive them, and MANY are deceived, but others become the camp around the city, so that Satan and his forces surround the camp AND the city.

    I hope this clarifies, so you see what I am saying.

  10. #415

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

    Does the rapture theory fall apart IF Ezek.37 is talking about a resurrection?

    EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

    Does the rapture theory fall apart IF Ezek.37 is talking about a resurrection?

  11. #416
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    Does the rapture theory fall apart IF Ezek.37 is talking about a resurrection?
    Ezekiel 37 is prophesying the great rejoining and Spiritual restoration of His people, the complete fulfilment of Joel 2:28-29
    It is not the resurrection of the actual dead, but the Spiritual regeneration of all those who have who have accepted Jesus. We Christians have been 'born again' in Christ and have received some degree of Spiritual uplifting. We will receive that in full measure, when we go to live in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5

    As for the 'rapture theory', that falls apart just by reading the Bible and seeing for yourself that such a thing simply is not there.
    God does not change, He has allowed His people to be persecuted and killed for their faith up till now, why should He suddenly decide that Christians today are good enough to go directly to heaven?
    It is all just too unbelievable and Jesus was right when He said; Take care that you be not deceived..... This and many other scriptures prove that many will be deceived by false teachings. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    Does the rapture theory fall apart IF Ezek.37 is talking about a resurrection?
    Ezekiel 37 is prophesying the great rejoining and Spiritual restoration of His people, the complete fulfilment of Joel 2:28-29
    It is not the resurrection of the actual dead, but the Spiritual regeneration of all those who have who have accepted Jesus. We Christians have been 'born again' in Christ and have received some degree of Spiritual uplifting. We will receive that in full measure, when we go to live in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5

    As for the 'rapture theory', that falls apart just by reading the Bible and seeing for yourself that such a thing simply is not there.
    God does not change, He has allowed His people to be persecuted and killed for their faith up till now, why should He suddenly decide that Christians today are good enough to go directly to heaven?
    It is all just too unbelievable and Jesus was right when He said; Take care that you be not deceived..... This and many other scriptures prove that many will be deceived by false teachings. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

  12. #417
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Ezekiel 37:1-10 The prophesy of the valley of dry bones.
    Ezekiel 37:11-14....these bones are the whole people of Israel, they say; our bones are dry, our hope is gone.... The Lord says; My people, I shall bring you up from your graves and restore you to the Land of Israel. You will know that I am the Lord when I do this. I will put My spirit in you and settle you on your own soil.

    The Israelites were punished by God for their sins by dispersion into other lands. That is why they cry ‘our hope is gone, we are cut off’, they have lost their Israelite identity, and become spiritually dead. Note that the bones, which metaphorically represent all 12 tribes of Israel, are displayed in an open field, showing that their exile is not an actual captivity. Ezekiel’s task is to bring the good news to them, to revive their hope and faith, that they are still God’s people, He hasn’t broken His covenant with them, He still loves them and the time has come when He will restore them into the Promised Land.
    This gathering of all God’s people, now every faithful Christian, be they actual descendants of Jacob or grafted in, must happen before the Millennial time and the war of Gog and Magog in order for the Temple to be rebuilt and the 144,000 to be selected. This Spiritual death of the children of Israel will not last much longer. Through the prophet Elijah [Malachi 4:5], God will awaken them to their divine destiny. The long exile will be over; they will establish their own politically independent State in all of the Holy Land. The new nation of Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5 The first stage of this redemption has been done in part of the Land, by the Jewish people, but they too, have not yet received a renewal of God’s Spirit. The ‘dry bones’ prophecy of Ezekiel does not mean physical resurrection of the dead, but is a symbolic vision, similar to other Biblical allegories. It means the end of exile and the beginning of restoration. Eze. 11:19, Eze 36:24-28 & 38

    Ezekiel 37:15-28... I am taking the leaf of Israel and joining it to the leaf of Judah; they will be as one in My hand. I shall assemble them from every quarter and restore them to their own soil....
    The prophecy of the ‘dry bones’ continues on to the “two leaf” prophecy. This is the time when the House of Judah rejoins with the House of Israel, separated since King Rehoboam’s time. It is only when the both Houses reject their apostasy and sins, that they will be ready to become one nation again, a nation of priests and a light to the world. Still, this is not the final redemption, but a preliminary one, to enable their regathering and settlement into the Land of Greater Israel. Final redemption of the whole House of Israel, Jew and Gentile, will follow the destruction of the armies of Gog, who is motivated to attack because Beulah will be so wealthy and prosperous.

    Ezekiel 38 & 39 The attack on New Israel by the armies of Gog and their destruction.
    38:8...you will invade a land restored from ruin....the Israelites, brought out from the nations, living in peace and prosperity. [after the Psalms 83 event and before the Return of Jesus]
    Ezekiel 39:21-29....from that Day forward the Israelites [now every faithful Christian] will know that I am the Lord their God...... I have dealt out to them what their sins deserved... now I shall restore all of them, leaving none behind and make them exemplify My Holiness for many nations to see. No longer will I hide My face from them, I who have poured out My spirit on Israel. This is the Word of the Lord.
    Reference: REB. Some verses abridged.

    Ezekiel 37:1-10 The prophesy of the valley of dry bones.
    Ezekiel 37:11-14....these bones are the whole people of Israel, they say; our bones are dry, our hope is gone.... The Lord says; My people, I shall bring you up from your graves and restore you to the Land of Israel. You will know that I am the Lord when I do this. I will put My spirit in you and settle you on your own soil.

    The Israelites were punished by God for their sins by dispersion into other lands. That is why they cry ‘our hope is gone, we are cut off’, they have lost their Israelite identity, and become spiritually dead. Note that the bones, which metaphorically represent all 12 tribes of Israel, are displayed in an open field, showing that their exile is not an actual captivity. Ezekiel’s task is to bring the good news to them, to revive their hope and faith, that they are still God’s people, He hasn’t broken His covenant with them, He still loves them and the time has come when He will restore them into the Promised Land.
    This gathering of all God’s people, now every faithful Christian, be they actual descendants of Jacob or grafted in, must happen before the Millennial time and the war of Gog and Magog in order for the Temple to be rebuilt and the 144,000 to be selected. This Spiritual death of the children of Israel will not last much longer. Through the prophet Elijah [Malachi 4:5], God will awaken them to their divine destiny. The long exile will be over; they will establish their own politically independent State in all of the Holy Land. The new nation of Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5 The first stage of this redemption has been done in part of the Land, by the Jewish people, but they too, have not yet received a renewal of God’s Spirit. The ‘dry bones’ prophecy of Ezekiel does not mean physical resurrection of the dead, but is a symbolic vision, similar to other Biblical allegories. It means the end of exile and the beginning of restoration. Eze. 11:19, Eze 36:24-28 & 38

    Ezekiel 37:15-28... I am taking the leaf of Israel and joining it to the leaf of Judah; they will be as one in My hand. I shall assemble them from every quarter and restore them to their own soil....
    The prophecy of the ‘dry bones’ continues on to the “two leaf” prophecy. This is the time when the House of Judah rejoins with the House of Israel, separated since King Rehoboam’s time. It is only when the both Houses reject their apostasy and sins, that they will be ready to become one nation again, a nation of priests and a light to the world. Still, this is not the final redemption, but a preliminary one, to enable their regathering and settlement into the Land of Greater Israel. Final redemption of the whole House of Israel, Jew and Gentile, will follow the destruction of the armies of Gog, who is motivated to attack because Beulah will be so wealthy and prosperous.

    Ezekiel 38 & 39 The attack on New Israel by the armies of Gog and their destruction.
    38:8...you will invade a land restored from ruin....the Israelites, brought out from the nations, living in peace and prosperity. [after the Psalms 83 event and before the Return of Jesus]
    Ezekiel 39:21-29....from that Day forward the Israelites [now every faithful Christian] will know that I am the Lord their God...... I have dealt out to them what their sins deserved... now I shall restore all of them, leaving none behind and make them exemplify My Holiness for many nations to see. No longer will I hide My face from them, I who have poured out My spirit on Israel. This is the Word of the Lord.
    Reference: REB. Some verses abridged.

    Ezekiel 37:1-10 The prophesy of the valley of dry bones.
    Ezekiel 37:11-14....these bones are the whole people of Israel, they say; our bones are dry, our hope is gone.... The Lord says; My people, I shall bring you up from your graves and restore you to the Land of Israel. You will know that I am the Lord when I do this. I will put My spirit in you and settle you on your own soil.

    The Israelites were punished by God for their sins by dispersion into other lands. That is why they cry ‘our hope is gone, we are cut off’, they have lost their Israelite identity, and become spiritually dead. Note that the bones, which metaphorically represent all 12 tribes of Israel, are displayed in an open field, showing that their exile is not an actual captivity. Ezekiel’s task is to bring the good news to them, to revive their hope and faith, that they are still God’s people, He hasn’t broken His covenant with them, He still loves them and the time has come when He will restore them into the Promised Land.
    This gathering of all God’s people, now every faithful Christian, be they actual descendants of Jacob or grafted in, must happen before the Millennial time and the war of Gog and Magog in order for the Temple to be rebuilt and the 144,000 to be selected. This Spiritual death of the children of Israel will not last much longer. Through the prophet Elijah [Malachi 4:5], God will awaken them to their divine destiny. The long exile will be over; they will establish their own politically independent State in all of the Holy Land. The new nation of Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5 The first stage of this redemption has been done in part of the Land, by the Jewish people, but they too, have not yet received a renewal of God’s Spirit. The ‘dry bones’ prophecy of Ezekiel does not mean physical resurrection of the dead, but is a symbolic vision, similar to other Biblical allegories. It means the end of exile and the beginning of restoration. Eze. 11:19, Eze 36:24-28 & 38

    Ezekiel 37:15-28... I am taking the leaf of Israel and joining it to the leaf of Judah; they will be as one in My hand. I shall assemble them from every quarter and restore them to their own soil....
    The prophecy of the ‘dry bones’ continues on to the “two leaf” prophecy. This is the time when the House of Judah rejoins with the House of Israel, separated since King Rehoboam’s time. It is only when the both Houses reject their apostasy and sins, that they will be ready to become one nation again, a nation of priests and a light to the world. Still, this is not the final redemption, but a preliminary one, to enable their regathering and settlement into the Land of Greater Israel. Final redemption of the whole House of Israel, Jew and Gentile, will follow the destruction of the armies of Gog, who is motivated to attack because Beulah will be so wealthy and prosperous.

    Ezekiel 38 & 39 The attack on New Israel by the armies of Gog and their destruction.
    38:8...you will invade a land restored from ruin....the Israelites, brought out from the nations, living in peace and prosperity. [after the Psalms 83 event and before the Return of Jesus]
    Ezekiel 39:21-29....from that Day forward the Israelites [now every faithful Christian] will know that I am the Lord their God...... I have dealt out to them what their sins deserved... now I shall restore all of them, leaving none behind and make them exemplify My Holiness for many nations to see. No longer will I hide My face from them, I who have poured out My spirit on Israel. This is the Word of the Lord.
    Reference: REB. Some verses abridged.

  13. #418

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Ezekiel 37 is prophesying the great rejoining and Spiritual restoration of His people, the complete fulfilment of Joel 2:28-29
    It is not the resurrection of the actual dead......
    Ya might wanna read Ezek.37 again. Definately a resurrection of the dead. Which sends the rapture { as most preach} down the toilet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Ezekiel 37 is prophesying the great rejoining and Spiritual restoration of His people, the complete fulfilment of Joel 2:28-29
    It is not the resurrection of the actual dead......
    Ya might wanna read Ezek.37 again. Definately a resurrection of the dead. Which sends the rapture { as most preach} down the toilet.

  14. #419

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    My next question. Why isnt the LAST trumpet, the LAST trumpet?

    1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    scripture says that the “rapture” occurs as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

    MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. You cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15. In Matt.24 You find the LAST TRUMPET being blown and the gathering of Gods people {in the twinkling of an eye}

    ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

    The GREAT trumpet {also found in Matt.24} shall be blown. His people gathered. Its off to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. Not headin for heaven

    So why do the Rapturist believe the LAST trumpet aint the LAST trumpet

  15. #420

    Cool Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    Ya might wanna read Ezek.37 again. Definately a resurrection of the dead. Which sends the rapture { as most preach} down the toilet.
    Yes, Ezek. 37 is the symbolic picture of the restoration of physical Israel with spiritual implications. It also pictures the resurrection of the dead and the delivery of God's Spirit to lead them.

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    My next question. Why isnt the LAST trumpet, the LAST trumpet?

    1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    scripture says that the “rapture” occurs as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

    MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. You cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15. In Matt.24 You find the LAST TRUMPET being blown and the gathering of Gods people {in the twinkling of an eye}

    ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

    The GREAT trumpet {also found in Matt.24} shall be blown. His people gathered. Its off to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. Not headin for heaven

    So why do the Rapturist believe the LAST trumpet aint the LAST trumpet
    It depends on when the rapture happens. Like you pointed out, it is after the tribulation at the second coming of Christ. Those that portray a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture have missed the mark. Once Christ comes in the air, He will circle the earth and gather His saints, then He will set down on the Mt. of Olives (Acts 1:11).
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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