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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #16
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnE View Post
    There are many places in scripture which explain this. Here is one that some might miss:

    Psalm 14:2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. 3 They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one....

    5 There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous.


    God looks down from heaven upon the children of men and sees that are none that do good. At the same time, God is with the generation of the righteous. How can that be unless the righteous are no longer upon the earth? Doesn't a rapture also explain why those who are corrupt are in great fear?
    Using such scriptures to prove the unprovable, just shows what lengths that those who want God to take then out of any tough times, have to go to.

    Psalms 14:5 They will be in dire alarm, for God is with the assembly of the righteous. REBible
    In no way does this mean they are in heaven, only that God cares for and supports the righteous.

  2. #17
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Here is where you go wrong.
    There is NO requirement for Rev 7:9 onwards to be in heaven.
    In fact there are numerous clues which tell you it is NOT in heaven but on earth.
    The first is that it is AFTER the GT has ended. This means chronologically it is about the end of things, even as the start of the chapter is before things kick off.
    The second is that it is a reenactment of when Jesus rode into Jerusalem.
    Third note the palm branches they are waving in verse 9.

    So this is NOT heaven but earth.


    Actually again this is not heaven.
    This is on Mount Zion when Jesus has returned to the earth.


    Was Jesus described as raptured? The Greek is a different word simply meaning raised up or lifted up.
    Elijah didn't go to heaven, simply horizontally somewhere. They spent three days looking for him but couldn;t find him, but later he wrote a letter to a king AFTER the date of his rapture.
    Neither John or Paul was probably PHYSICALLY raptured - they possibly were, but they were returned to the earth, which is where Jesus is coming back to.

    So based on the evidence we have no one who was raptured destined to remain in heaven.
    We also don't have any scriptures showing us in heaven as the place to remain.

    The most we have is some visions where possibly some one was taken physically up to heaven for a short time.
    Was Isaiah raptured to heaven?
    How about Ezekiel?
    Did you notice that you gave not a single verse for your thesis. Added to this, you completely ignored the presence of the 24 Elders and 4 Creatures who are members of Heaven in Revelation Chapter 4. I think I will let my posting stand.

    Zion is generally on earth. But, just as the Tabernacle and Temple are built according to the pattern of the heavenly (Ex.25:40; 1st Chron.28:11-12; Heb.8:5), so also there is a HEAVENLY ZION (Heb.12:22). If you add (i) the 24 Elders and 4 Creatures, (ii) the THRONOS* (Gk), and (iii) that those of Revelation 14 are "redeemed FROM the earth", I would say that the argument for heaven is watertight.

    * The Christians who face the Judgement Seat of Christ face the BEMA (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10) - a traveling throne. Christ's THRONOS, not BEMA is either in heaven (see Revelation Chapter 4) or when He has fought Armageddon, it is set up on earth to judge the nations (Matt.25:31-46). So the question to be answered is how then can men who are "redeemed from the earth" stand before a throne set up on earth? Added to this, the army that fights Armageddon returns with the Lord (Rev.19:14), so they could only have stood before the THRONOS in heaven seeing as they do not face the THRONOS on earth after Armageddon.

    I think the evidence is quite strong.

  3. #18
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Did you notice that you gave not a single verse for your thesis. Added to this, you completely ignored the presence of the 24 Elders and 4 Creatures who are members of Heaven in Revelation Chapter 4. I think I will let my posting stand.
    I don;t need an additional verse, as the verses themselves do NOT support your claim.
    I fully agree that the 24 Elders and 4 creatures are in Heaven in Rev 4. No disagreement at all.
    It is your assertion that Rev 7 MUST be in heaven which is in error.

    I also stated why this is not in heaven, but you chose not to grapple with actual points I made.

    Zion is generally on earth. But, just as the Tabernacle and Temple are built according to the pattern of the heavenly (Ex.25:40; 1st Chron.28:11-12; Heb.8:5), so also there is a HEAVENLY ZION (Heb.12:22). If you add (i) the 24 Elders and 4 Creatures, (ii) the THRONOS* (Gk), and (iii) that those of Revelation 14 are "redeemed FROM the earth", I would say that the argument for heaven is watertight.
    This is ONLY watertight if you do not believe that the throne of God comes down to earth.
    However Matt 25 and Rev 21 & 22 give a different picture.
    When Jesus returns then the Throne of God will be on earth on Mount Zion in the New Jerusalem.
    This immediately removes the basis of your claim.

    * The Christians who face the Judgement Seat of Christ face the BEMA (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10) - a traveling throne. Christ's THRONOS, not BEMA is either in heaven (see Revelation Chapter 4) or when He has fought Armageddon, it is set up on earth to judge the nations (Matt.25:31-46). So the question to be answered is how then can men who are "redeemed from the earth" stand before a throne set up on earth? Added to this, the army that fights Armageddon returns with the Lord (Rev.19:14), so they could only have stood before the THRONOS in heaven seeing as they do not face the THRONOS on earth after Armageddon.

    I think the evidence is quite strong.
    I see you do note the Throne will be on earth.
    Therefore it is really a question of the timing connected with the viewing.
    If you think Rev 7:9 happens immediately after the sealing of the 144K then your claim would be correct - however the statement that these are AFTER the GT posits it as AFTER Jesus returns, when His throne is then on earth.
    The same is true for Rev 14. If you think the vision is speaking of something WHILE the Beast is ruling then again your claim would be correct. However if you see that the vision of Rev 14 speaks of what their eternal state will be after going through the Beast's reign then it means that my view is correct.

    IOW if you see Revelation speaking of things and then dealing with the end results of those things, before continuing with its chronology then we have no reason to consider your idea as correct.
    This means one rapture ONLY (as your view would require separate raptures for the 144K and for those in Rev 7:9.) and that it is not to the 3rd heaven, but rather to the sky and then to earth.

    I do understand where you get your idea from and it is a possible interpretation. However it is very messy and requires additional events not mentioned anywhere else - such as two raptures of groups of believers - whilst mine is very simple and straight forward.

  4. #19
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I don;t need an additional verse, as the verses themselves do NOT support your claim.
    I fully agree that the 24 Elders and 4 creatures are in Heaven in Rev 4. No disagreement at all.
    It is your assertion that Rev 7 MUST be in heaven which is in error.

    I also stated why this is not in heaven, but you chose not to grapple with actual points I made.


    This is ONLY watertight if you do not believe that the throne of God comes down to earth.
    However Matt 25 and Rev 21 & 22 give a different picture.
    When Jesus returns then the Throne of God will be on earth on Mount Zion in the New Jerusalem.
    This immediately removes the basis of your claim.


    I see you do note the Throne will be on earth.
    Therefore it is really a question of the timing connected with the viewing.
    If you think Rev 7:9 happens immediately after the sealing of the 144K then your claim would be correct - however the statement that these are AFTER the GT posits it as AFTER Jesus returns, when His throne is then on earth.
    The same is true for Rev 14. If you think the vision is speaking of something WHILE the Beast is ruling then again your claim would be correct. However if you see that the vision of Rev 14 speaks of what their eternal state will be after going through the Beast's reign then it means that my view is correct.

    IOW if you see Revelation speaking of things and then dealing with the end results of those things, before continuing with its chronology then we have no reason to consider your idea as correct.
    This means one rapture ONLY (as your view would require separate raptures for the 144K and for those in Rev 7:9.) and that it is not to the 3rd heaven, but rather to the sky and then to earth.

    I do understand where you get your idea from and it is a possible interpretation. However it is very messy and requires additional events not mentioned anywhere else - such as two raptures of groups of believers - whilst mine is very simple and straight forward.
    How about THREE raptures - just to mess up the whole matter more.

    In the parable of the Wheat and the Tares the "end of the age" is likened to a harvest (v.39) with the angels as reapers who put the Wheat in God's BARN (v.30). If we are faithful ONLY to interpret scripture with scripture (2nd Pet.1.20), then we must look to scripture for the harvest. And we do not have to look further than Leviticus 23. In it is ONE HARVEST. BUT ... this one harvest is divided into three events.
    1. The harvest of the Firstfruits. These usually are enjoyed by the Husbandman as He has waited long for them so they would be in His House (unless He eats in the barn)
    2. Then, the fruit that was not completely ripe must wait a while in the summer heat to dry up. Only then is it harvested. This goes into the BARN
    3. Then we have the harvest of the gleanings - a special fruit left for the poor and underprivileged.

    Now, knowing this, let us see ...
    1. The Virgins of Revelation Chapter 14 stand, without fault, rejoicing in the company of the 24 Elders and 4 Creatures before the throne. The were "redeemed from among men" AND they are "redeemed from the earth" AND they are FIRSTFRUITS to God and His Lamb
    2. The great majority of those associated with Christ found in Revelation Chapter 7 must wash their robes. Contrary to those of Chapter 14 who were "without fault", these needed to wash their garments. In parable, a garment is one's works (Rev.19:8, etc). They have "come out of THE Great Tribulation" (The article is in the best texts. Even the NKJV admits this). So their Rapture must be at the end of the Great Tribulation
    3. Then, saints like the Two Witnesses are left to testify during the great Tribulation. They are Gleanings. They are left to PROFIT somebody. The Two Witnesses are Raptured at the end of the 1260 days.

    We have ONE HARVEST, but three events, and just what you said, even though "messy" in your estimation, it answers the objections to my theory. Take your time bro, and God bless.

    PS. In Romans 1:19-20 we are told that the things created show the things of God. So, in addition to Leviticus 23, if you wold take the time, observe the harvest IN NATURE. You will find these SAME THREE events in the ONE HARVEST - Firstfruits (which usually go to the farmer and his family), the General Harvest (which usually goes into the Barn), and the Gleanings, which, here in Central Europe are still harvested by the poorer citizens of the village.

  5. #20
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    How about THREE raptures - just to mess up the whole matter more.

    In the parable of the Wheat and the Tares the "end of the age" is likened to a harvest (v.39) with the angels as reapers who put the Wheat in God's BARN (v.30). If we are faithful ONLY to interpret scripture with scripture (2nd Pet.1.20), then we must look to scripture for the harvest. And we do not have to look further than Leviticus 23. In it is ONE HARVEST. BUT ... this one harvest is divided into three events.
    1. The harvest of the Firstfruits. These usually are enjoyed by the Husbandman as He has waited long for them so they would be in His House (unless He eats in the barn)
    2. Then, the fruit that was not completely ripe must wait a while in the summer heat to dry up. Only then is it harvested. This goes into the BARN
    3. Then we have the harvest of the gleanings - a special fruit left for the poor and underprivileged.

    Now, knowing this, let us see ...
    1. The Virgins of Revelation Chapter 14 stand, without fault, rejoicing in the company of the 24 Elders and 4 Creatures before the throne. The were "redeemed from among men" AND they are "redeemed from the earth" AND they are FIRSTFRUITS to God and His Lamb
    2. The great majority of those associated with Christ found in Revelation Chapter 7 must wash their robes. Contrary to those of Chapter 14 who were "without fault", these needed to wash their garments. In parable, a garment is one's works (Rev.19:8, etc). They have "come out of THE Great Tribulation" (The article is in the best texts. Even the NKJV admits this). So their Rapture must be at the end of the Great Tribulation
    3. Then, saints like the Two Witnesses are left to testify during the great Tribulation. They are Gleanings. They are left to PROFIT somebody. The Two Witnesses are Raptured at the end of the 1260 days.

    We have ONE HARVEST, but three events, and just what you said, even though "messy" in your estimation, it answers the objections to my theory. Take your time bro, and God bless.

    PS. In Romans 1:19-20 we are told that the things created show the things of God. So, in addition to Leviticus 23, if you wold take the time, observe the harvest IN NATURE. You will find these SAME THREE events in the ONE HARVEST - Firstfruits (which usually go to the farmer and his family), the General Harvest (which usually goes into the Barn), and the Gleanings, which, here in Central Europe are still harvested by the poorer citizens of the village.
    We find that scripture speaks of three SEPARATE harvests, which are to be celebrated at THREE different times - one is the firstfruits and is the WAVE offering, and occurred on the Day Jesus rose from the dead. He is the firstfruits in that sense.
    The second mentioned is that of Shavuot and occurred at Pentecost.
    The third is the autumn harvest and is Tabernacles and ties into His return.

    So by using scripture to interpret scripture we have THREE separate harvests. This does NOT equate to three separate raptures.

    Don't confuse the removal of the tares as being a harvest. The tares are harvested in that they are removed, but this is not "a harvest" as there is no fruit.
    This harvesting (which is the removal of the tares) ties into the GT.
    This is why there are two things stated in that parable.

  6. #21
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    We find that scripture speaks of three SEPARATE harvests, which are to be celebrated at THREE different times - one is the firstfruits and is the WAVE offering, and occurred on the Day Jesus rose from the dead. He is the firstfruits in that sense.
    The second mentioned is that of Shavuot and occurred at Pentecost.
    The third is the autumn harvest and is Tabernacles and ties into His return.

    So by using scripture to interpret scripture we have THREE separate harvests. This does NOT equate to three separate raptures.

    Don't confuse the removal of the tares as being a harvest. The tares are harvested in that they are removed, but this is not "a harvest" as there is no fruit.
    This harvesting (which is the removal of the tares) ties into the GT.
    This is why there are two things stated in that parable.
    Yes. There are THREE harvests, one to denote the resurrection of Christ, the second to denote the resurrection of Christians and the third to denote the resurrection of Israel. This is the "wave offering". There you have a Wave Offering WITHOUT leaven which speaks of Christ's resurrection. Then at Pentecost you have a Wave Offering WITH leaven, but which is also called the firstfruits, which speaks of the Overcoming Christians, and then you have a harvest at Tabernacles but no mention of a Wave Offering. But notice the grammar in regard to the "harvest when you come into the Land that I will give you". It addresses the Firstfruits and the Gleanings. The General harvest is implied because it is a "harvest". That is, because Israel was so fertile, it had multiple harvests. But WITHIN ONE HARVEST was always the Firstfruits, General harvest and Gleanings.

    Thus we have, in the harvest of the Wheat in Mathew 13, IMPLIED,
    1. the firstfruits - the Overcoming Christians - those of Revelation 14
    2. the general harvest some time later - the rest of the Church who were not Overcomers - those of Revelation 7
    3. the Gleanings at the end - those few who serve the Lord in the face of the Beast - example; the Two Witnesses (you can add those who refuse the mark of the Beast as reported in in Revelation 20:4)

    And so the harvest at the end of the age allows for THREE different types of Believer. Some kept from the hour of trial because they were ripe first. The bulk who pass through the great Tribulation because they were not ripe in time and needed the heat and dryness of the Great Tribulation to ripen. And finally the Gleanings - a few specially selected Christians who will testify before the rest of men who are overwhelmed by the Beast - the poor and the needy.

  7. #22
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Yes. There are THREE harvests, one to denote the resurrection of Christ, the second to denote the resurrection of Christians and the third to denote the resurrection of Israel.
    This is one of the reasons I abandoned the Dispensational view of eschatalogy years ago.

    To many divisions, subgroups, segregations, and racial destinies and slicing and dicing of people groups to keep up with; where NT over and over again, brings together, and doesn't segregate apart, and narrows it down to two types of people:
    (those who are Gods, and those who reject God).

    An alternate expectation do the dispensational separate groups is:

    1) The resurrection of Jesus following His death, burial, and third day.
    2) The resurrection of the just and the unjust of all humanity of all time at His Return (regardless of race, religion, or birthdate).


    Acts 24:15 " there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. "

    John 5:28 "the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. "

    Luke 11:23 "He that is not with me is against me"

    Matthew 13:47 "a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. "

    John 6:40; 12:46 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

    Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. "

    II Thess 1:7 "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe"

    Revelation 11:18 "thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants"

    Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man"


    Dispensationalism takes paragraphs and paragraphs of external commentary by the presenter, to explain, and to attempt to justify to the audience.
    Non-Dispensationalism allow the scriptures themselves to speak above, on their own; without any commentary; to lead the listener in how to understand and what to expect.

    Anyone even a child, can read the above 8 simple and direct passages, and understand what to expect when the Lord returns; without me providing one verse of personal commentary to lead the reader to expect anything differently.

    I just ask, how do those verses above, reach out to each one of you as you read them?

  8. #23
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    This is one of the reasons I abandoned the Dispensational view of eschatalogy years ago.

    To many divisions, subgroups, segregations, and racial destinies and slicing and dicing of people groups to keep up with; where NT over and over again, brings together, and doesn't segregate apart, and narrows it down to two types of people:
    (those who are Gods, and those who reject God).

    An alternate expectation do the dispensational separate groups is:

    1) The resurrection of Jesus following His death, burial, and third day.
    2) The resurrection of the just and the unjust of all humanity of all time at His Return (regardless of race, religion, or birthdate).


    Acts 24:15 " there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. "

    John 5:28 "the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. "

    Luke 11:23 "He that is not with me is against me"

    Matthew 13:47 "a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. "

    John 6:40; 12:46 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

    Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. "

    II Thess 1:7 "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe"

    Revelation 11:18 "thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants"

    Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man"


    Dispensationalism takes paragraphs and paragraphs of external commentary by the presenter, to explain, and to attempt to justify to the audience.
    Non-Dispensationalism allow the scriptures themselves to speak above, on their own; without any commentary; to lead the listener in how to understand and what to expect.

    Anyone even a child, can read the above 8 simple and direct passages, and understand what to expect when the Lord returns; without me providing one verse of personal commentary to lead the reader to expect anything differently.

    I just ask, how do those verses above, reach out to each one of you as you read them?
    In reading your proffered scriptures I am in full agreement with them. They address, as you say, those who embraced Christ and those who did not. So we can agree that we have multiple scriptures promoting, challenging and demanding that Christ be believed in or there will be consequences. But then we have scriptures, also multiple, that show that WITHIN these TWO groups, we have different cases. These two must be equally addressed. We may not be selective with scripture. I will give some examples.

    (1) In Matthew 25:31-46 we see Christ's Throne set on earth in glory. Those to be judged are clearly said to be THE NATIONS. Throughout both Old and New Testaments the NATIONS are those who are NOT Israel and NOT the Church. They are interchangeably called the Gentiles.
    1. Now, the first subdivision is that those before the Throne of Christ are the LIVING at the end of the great Tribulation. The DEAD must wait another thousand years for their turn at Christ's White Throne (Rev.20:4-6).
    2. The second subdivision is that among these LIVING, our Lord divides them into TWO GROUPS based on how they treated" the least of His brethren" during the Great Tribulation.

    (2) In Matthew 25:14-30 the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his OWN servants, and delivered unto them his goods. Note that throughout the Parable, irrespective of the behavior of these Servants who are OWNED by the Lord, their status as servants of the Lord NEVER CHANGES. But we again have TWO SUBDIVISIONS:
    1. Those who were faithful and multiplied their talents. In verse 21 the faithful servant is called, "thou good and faithful servant" and are REWARDED
    2. Those who were slothful and buried their talents in the earth. Note that in verse 24 the slothful servant still calls our Lord, "Lord". Note also that in verse 26 "HIS Lord" answered, and "his Lord" called him "SERVANT" showing that his status had not changed. Then, as the servant reaps the LOSS for his slothfulness in verse 30 he is still called SERVANT.

    In this scripture on who will be rewarded and who will suffer loss, the status of the Lord's servant NEVER CHANGES. His DESTINY changes but not his status. Thus, within God's servants we have a subdivision.

    (3) In Daniel 12:1-3 we have "THY PEOPLE" in verse 1. Daniel's People are Israel. They are not the Gentiles and the Church was not revealed to prophets of old (Eph.3:5, 9, etc). So they are not Christians. They are called "Thy (Daniel's) People" because God had disowned them and divorced them. They were in captivity in Babylon for their iniquities and God had called them Lo-ammi - "you are NOT my People". Verse 1 also alludes to the Great Tribulation and Michael coming to Israel's aid. A promise is made that Israel would, at this time, be delivered. But immediately TWO CLASSES of Israelite are shown - (i) those in a Book, and (ii) those not in this Book. Verse 2 goes on to show another subdivision. In that "many" Israelites are resurrected means that NOT ALL will be resurrected. And within this company of "many" there is a subdivision of (i) those who are judged to enter the bliss of life in restored Israel in FAME (like the prophets), and (ii) those who are resurrected but live in restored Israel IN SHAME (like Saul and Solomon). Verse 3 cements this subdivision by alluding to the "WISE". By introducing "THEY that be wise", it is IMPLIED that there are "THEY who were NOT wise".

    My esteemed brother, there is no escape from scripture. It lays forth the simplicity of Christ being embraced or rejected with the consequences. It also shows the subdivisions within the Church, within Israel and within the Gentiles with selective consequences. These subdivisions are vitally important to our doctrine because our doctrine dictates our behavior. What the Christian BELIEVES will decide what he DOES, and what he DOES is JUDGED at Christ's Judgments seat.

  9. #24
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    This is one of the reasons I abandoned the Dispensational view of eschatalogy years ago.

    To many divisions, subgroups, segregations, and racial destinies and slicing and dicing of people groups to keep up with; where NT over and over again, brings together, and doesn't segregate apart, and narrows it down to two types of people:
    (those who are Gods, and those who reject God).

    An alternate expectation do the dispensational separate groups is:

    1) The resurrection of Jesus following His death, burial, and third day.
    2) The resurrection of the just and the unjust of all humanity of all time at His Return (regardless of race, religion, or birthdate).


    Acts 24:15 " there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. "

    John 5:28 "the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. "

    Luke 11:23 "He that is not with me is against me"

    Matthew 13:47 "a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. "

    John 6:40; 12:46 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

    Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. "

    II Thess 1:7 "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe"

    Revelation 11:18 "thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants"

    Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man"


    Dispensationalism takes paragraphs and paragraphs of external commentary by the presenter, to explain, and to attempt to justify to the audience.
    Non-Dispensationalism allow the scriptures themselves to speak above, on their own; without any commentary; to lead the listener in how to understand and what to expect.

    Anyone even a child, can read the above 8 simple and direct passages, and understand what to expect when the Lord returns; without me providing one verse of personal commentary to lead the reader to expect anything differently.

    I just ask, how do those verses above, reach out to each one of you as you read them?


    Exactly. ...........
    ďAĒ cannot be ďAĒ & not ďAĒ at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  10. #25
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    How about THREE raptures - just to mess up the whole matter more.

    In the parable of the Wheat and the Tares the "end of the age" is likened to a harvest (v.39) with the angels as reapers who put the Wheat in God's BARN (v.30). If we are faithful ONLY to interpret scripture with scripture (2nd Pet.1.20), then we must look to scripture for the harvest. And we do not have to look further than Leviticus 23. In it is ONE HARVEST. BUT ... this one harvest is divided into three events.
    1. The harvest of the Firstfruits. These usually are enjoyed by the Husbandman as He has waited long for them so they would be in His House (unless He eats in the barn)
    2. Then, the fruit that was not completely ripe must wait a while in the summer heat to dry up. Only then is it harvested. This goes into the BARN
    3. Then we have the harvest of the gleanings - a special fruit left for the poor and underprivileged.

    Now, knowing this, let us see ...
    1. The Virgins of Revelation Chapter 14 stand, without fault, rejoicing in the company of the 24 Elders and 4 Creatures before the throne. The were "redeemed from among men" AND they are "redeemed from the earth" AND they are FIRSTFRUITS to God and His Lamb
    2. The great majority of those associated with Christ found in Revelation Chapter 7 must wash their robes. Contrary to those of Chapter 14 who were "without fault", these needed to wash their garments. In parable, a garment is one's works (Rev.19:8, etc). They have "come out of THE Great Tribulation" (The article is in the best texts. Even the NKJV admits this). So their Rapture must be at the end of the Great Tribulation
    3. Then, saints like the Two Witnesses are left to testify during the great Tribulation. They are Gleanings. They are left to PROFIT somebody. The Two Witnesses are Raptured at the end of the 1260 days.

    We have ONE HARVEST, but three events, and just what you said, even though "messy" in your estimation, it answers the objections to my theory. Take your time bro, and God bless.

    PS. In Romans 1:19-20 we are told that the things created show the things of God. So, in addition to Leviticus 23, if you wold take the time, observe the harvest IN NATURE. You will find these SAME THREE events in the ONE HARVEST - Firstfruits (which usually go to the farmer and his family), the General Harvest (which usually goes into the Barn), and the Gleanings, which, here in Central Europe are still harvested by the poorer citizens of the village.
    Good job, you see the three Harvests, but I must admit I think you conflate them somewhat. The First fruits were the Jews who were called first, so many a Jew is yet to be resurrected but are indeed the First fruits. But they are raised at the end, as Daniel was told in Dan. 12:1-2, when Jesus returns as we now know, Jesus was speaking to Daniel in chapter 12 {the man in linen}.

    Rev. 14 covers the full 7 years of the 70th week. We see the 144,000, or IMHO, ALL Israel, more like 5 million Jews who repented or 1/3 of the Jews via Zechariah 13. We see Jesus returning to Mt. Zion with the "first fruits" Harvest of Israel {Wheat} in Rev. 14:1, the "144,000" Jews who fled and I would imagine the Saints of old like Daniel. In verses 18-20 we see the Harvest of the Wicked {Tares}. The Wheat {Israel} and the Tares {Wicked} grow together until the end.

    But there is another Harvest in verse 14, Jesus himself thrusts in the Sickle to Harvest the Church it seems. But the 24 Elders are of the Church, they are even shown in Rev. 4 and 5 to have attained the very gifts promised unto the Church in Rev. 1.

    We see the Church in Heaven before the Seals are opened !!

    Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

    The different views of who these 24 Elders are here below....................see the Blue.

    1.) The 24 Elders are Angels...........................Well, we see humans called Elders but never have we seen Angels called elders. Also throughout the book of Revelation Elders and Angels are distinguished. Thirdly in Rev. 5:9 the Elders sing a Song of Redemption, so lets discount that viewpoint.

    2.) The Elders are the Church AND Israel..........The problem with this is that Israel will not be Resurrected (Daniel 12:1-2) and rewarded until the Second Coming of Christ.

    3.) The 24 Elders are the Church..........BINGO..........The reasons are many, I will list them below:

    The Rewards promised to the Seven Churches are given unto the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4 ad 4-10.

    * A Crown - ( Rev. 2:10, 3:11, 4:4 and 4:10 )

    * A Throne - ( Rev. 3:21 and 4:4 )

    * A White Robe - ( Rev. 3:4-5 and Rev. 4:4 )

    In Pre-tribulationism: the Rapture occurs BEFORE the tribulation.

    So the above definition of pre-trib fits perfectly with the 24 Elders being the Church in Heaven doesn't it ? Before the Seals are opened !!

    This however wouldn't work in Post tribulation theory or with pre-wrath theory either !!

    As per the 24 Elders meaning ? or why 24 Elders !! Well this fits 1 Chronicles 24:7-19 where we are told there are 24 orders of priests.

    We are also called kings and priests in Rev. chapter 7..............Rev.7:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    One Harvest 3 Events or 3 Harvests, same thing in essence. But the 24 Elders represent the Church in Heaven before the Seals are opened, that is a very important aspect. It proves a Pre Trib Rapture.

  11. #26
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    In reading your proffered scriptures I am in full agreement with them. They address, as you say, those who embraced Christ and those who did not. So we can agree that we have multiple scriptures promoting, challenging and demanding that Christ be believed in or there will be consequences. But then we have scriptures, also multiple, that show that WITHIN these TWO groups, we have different cases. These two must be equally addressed. We may not be selective with scripture. I will give some examples.

    (1) In Matthew 25:31-46 we see Christ's Throne set on earth in glory. Those to be judged are clearly said to be THE NATIONS. Throughout both Old and New Testaments the NATIONS are those who are NOT Israel and NOT the Church. They are interchangeably called the Gentiles.
    1. Now, the first subdivision is that those before the Throne of Christ are the LIVING at the end of the great Tribulation. The DEAD must wait another thousand years for their turn at Christ's White Throne (Rev.20:4-6).
    2. The second subdivision is that among these LIVING, our Lord divides them into TWO GROUPS based on how they treated" the least of His brethren" during the Great Tribulation.

    (2) In Matthew 25:14-30 the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his OWN servants, and delivered unto them his goods. Note that throughout the Parable, irrespective of the behavior of these Servants who are OWNED by the Lord, their status as servants of the Lord NEVER CHANGES. But we again have TWO SUBDIVISIONS:
    1. Those who were faithful and multiplied their talents. In verse 21 the faithful servant is called, "thou good and faithful servant" and are REWARDED
    2. Those who were slothful and buried their talents in the earth. Note that in verse 24 the slothful servant still calls our Lord, "Lord". Note also that in verse 26 "HIS Lord" answered, and "his Lord" called him "SERVANT" showing that his status had not changed. Then, as the servant reaps the LOSS for his slothfulness in verse 30 he is still called SERVANT.

    In this scripture on who will be rewarded and who will suffer loss, the status of the Lord's servant NEVER CHANGES. His DESTINY changes but not his status. Thus, within God's servants we have a subdivision.

    (3) In Daniel 12:1-3 we have "THY PEOPLE" in verse 1. Daniel's People are Israel. They are not the Gentiles and the Church was not revealed to prophets of old (Eph.3:5, 9, etc). So they are not Christians. They are called "Thy (Daniel's) People" because God had disowned them and divorced them. They were in captivity in Babylon for their iniquities and God had called them Lo-ammi - "you are NOT my People". Verse 1 also alludes to the Great Tribulation and Michael coming to Israel's aid. A promise is made that Israel would, at this time, be delivered. But immediately TWO CLASSES of Israelite are shown - (i) those in a Book, and (ii) those not in this Book. Verse 2 goes on to show another subdivision. In that "many" Israelites are resurrected means that NOT ALL will be resurrected. And within this company of "many" there is a subdivision of (i) those who are judged to enter the bliss of life in restored Israel in FAME (like the prophets), and (ii) those who are resurrected but live in restored Israel IN SHAME (like Saul and Solomon). Verse 3 cements this subdivision by alluding to the "WISE". By introducing "THEY that be wise", it is IMPLIED that there are "THEY who were NOT wise".

    My esteemed brother, there is no escape from scripture. It lays forth the simplicity of Christ being embraced or rejected with the consequences. It also shows the subdivisions within the Church, within Israel and within the Gentiles with selective consequences. These subdivisions are vitally important to our doctrine because our doctrine dictates our behavior. What the Christian BELIEVES will decide what he DOES, and what he DOES is JUDGED at Christ's Judgments seat.
    Good example proving my point above.
    Instead of presenting clear scriptures alone and letting the present the expectation, you spent 60 lines of commentary explaining why all of the dividing and separating and grouping must be applied to derive the dispensationalism view.

    It is impossible to list 8 passages without external commentary, that explains the dispensationalism return(s) of Christ and various groups and multiple supposed resurrections.

    Think about it.
    Why canít the dispensationalism view stand and be easily understood on scriptures only, without adding external commentary to explain the premise and narrative?

  12. #27
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Good example proving my point above.
    Instead of presenting clear scriptures alone and letting the present the expectation, you spent 60 lines of commentary explaining why all of the dividing and separating and grouping must be applied to derive the dispensationalism view.

    It is impossible to list 8 passages without external commentary, that explains the dispensationalism return(s) of Christ and various groups and multiple supposed resurrections.

    Think about it.
    Why can’t the dispensationalism view stand and be easily understood on scriptures only, without adding external commentary to explain the premise and narrative?
    Amen Dave let the scriptures interpret themselves and other scriptures

  13. #28
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    We are raptured to change our bodies so we can enter the current heaven while God destroys the earth then come down as the new Jerusalem the holy City
    Not quite. The rapture is about physically moving people located all over the Earth to one specific point as a large group. They are moved from the Earth to the clouds of the Earth.
    The change of bodies from mortal to immortal happens right before the rapture simply so these people can survive being somewhere where there is no oxygen.

    They do not go up into the third heaven after this, but follow Christ downward to the Earth because all this happens during the second coming and Christ to going to Armageddon to fight a war which really is simply a slaughter but He needs to destroy the beast's army then cast the beast and FP into the LOF.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  14. #29
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Good example proving my point above.
    Instead of presenting clear scriptures alone and letting the present the expectation, you spent 60 lines of commentary explaining why all of the dividing and separating and grouping must be applied to derive the dispensationalism view.

    It is impossible to list 8 passages without external commentary, that explains the dispensationalism return(s) of Christ and various groups and multiple supposed resurrections.

    Think about it.
    Why canít the dispensationalism view stand and be easily understood on scriptures only, without adding external commentary to explain the premise and narrative?
    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Amen Dave let the scriptures interpret themselves and other scriptures
    I understand. It is the glory of man to want a single simple line. He deals well with this. God, on the other hand, is able to master an infinite number of threads all intertwined. He wrote His Bible for men to understand. But at the same time it is written to explain itself. Finally, it is written in language - the medium of transmitting ideas. And language has rules to make it coherent. So we follow what it says according to those rules. If I say; "All players with black uniforms stand this side", a number of things NOT said are apparent:
    1. There is a game on the go
    2. This game has players
    3. This game is a team game
    4. There are players dressed in black
    5. There are players dressed in an other color
    6. The players in black will play against the players not dressed in black.

    Am I accused of complicating things? NO! The sentence is concise but reveals much. So also is the Bible. The Master of languages, God, writes very economically and reveals much.

  15. #30
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Yes. There are THREE harvests, one to denote the resurrection of Christ, the second to denote the resurrection of Christians and the third to denote the resurrection of Israel. This is the "wave offering". There you have a Wave Offering WITHOUT leaven which speaks of Christ's resurrection. Then at Pentecost you have a Wave Offering WITH leaven, but which is also called the firstfruits, which speaks of the Overcoming Christians, and then you have a harvest at Tabernacles but no mention of a Wave Offering. But notice the grammar in regard to the "harvest when you come into the Land that I will give you". It addresses the Firstfruits and the Gleanings. The General harvest is implied because it is a "harvest". That is, because Israel was so fertile, it had multiple harvests. But WITHIN ONE HARVEST was always the Firstfruits, General harvest and Gleanings.
    Pentecost is different to Firstfruits for in Firstfruits it is the sheaf which is waved, but in Pentecost it is the bread which is waved.
    This doesn't speak of "overcoming" Christians, but simply those who were with th early harvest.
    There is no mention of firstfruits for the later harvest as that is conducted after everything has been gathered in - hence it also being called "ingathering".
    This is because Firstfruits is offered at the START of the harvest, and Shavuot is offered which mentions the gleanings (which is NOT mentioned with the other two harvests).

    Thus we have, in the harvest of the Wheat in Mathew 13, IMPLIED,
    1. the firstfruits - the Overcoming Christians - those of Revelation 14
    2. the general harvest some time later - the rest of the Church who were not Overcomers - those of Revelation 7
    3. the Gleanings at the end - those few who serve the Lord in the face of the Beast - example; the Two Witnesses (you can add those who refuse the mark of the Beast as reported in in Revelation 20:4)

    And so the harvest at the end of the age allows for THREE different types of Believer. Some kept from the hour of trial because they were ripe first. The bulk who pass through the great Tribulation because they were not ripe in time and needed the heat and dryness of the Great Tribulation to ripen. And finally the Gleanings - a few specially selected Christians who will testify before the rest of men who are overwhelmed by the Beast - the poor and the needy.
    Nope. Matthew 13 simply shows an uprooting of the tares AT harvest time, but no mention of firstfruits or gleanings. It is considered one in this parable.(Or you could argue is outside the scope of what the parable is presenting).

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