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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #31

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    How about THREE raptures - just to mess up the whole matter more.

    […]

    We have ONE HARVEST, but three events, and just what you said, even though "messy" in your estimation, it answers the objections to my theory. Take your time bro, and God bless.

    PS. In Romans 1:19-20 we are told that the things created show the things of God. So, in addition to Leviticus 23, if you wold take the time, observe the harvest IN NATURE. You will find these SAME THREE events in the ONE HARVEST - Firstfruits (which usually go to the farmer and his family), the General Harvest (which usually goes into the Barn), and the Gleanings, which, here in Central Europe are still harvested by the poorer citizens of the village.
    Walls, consider the following:

    --when we look at the TWO "firstfruit" of Lev23, verses 10-12 and then verse 17 are the two "firstfruit"... and the second one says it involves "TWO LOAVES" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" [and are "unto the Lord," similar to the Revelation 14:4c wording (re: the 144,000)] (but of "the Church which is His body" is it said, "ye are UN leavened")

    --I believe the 144,000 are "firstfruit" of the WHEAT harvest (WHEAT being harvested by means of a "tribulum," as opposed to the earlier harvest which is harvested by means of tossing into the air and separating the chaff--note that 2Th2:13 [to/for/about "the Church which is His body"] in some versions has it translated there as "hath chosen you firstfruit" and that the word for "hath chosen" is different than the usual Greek words for "chose," this being "G138 - heilato / haireo" which the concordance states is "probably akin to 'airo - G142]' " meaning "I raise, lift up, take away, remove")

    --[note also James 1:18 "a KIND of firstfruit"... seeming to mean there is more than one kind of "firstfruit," each belonging to its own particular "harvest" (I tend to see that there are 3 harvests, as in nature, or at least in the Leviticus 23 chpt [not to be understood as saying 3 "raptures"--I believe "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints)]

    --I believe "the Church which is His body" is not a part of the "WHEAT harvest" (and that the "My barn" [Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50] of the WHEAT harvest is the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth [per Rev19])

  2. #32
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Pentecost is different to Firstfruits for in Firstfruits it is the sheaf which is waved, but in Pentecost it is the bread which is waved.
    This doesn't speak of "overcoming" Christians, but simply those who were with th early harvest.
    There is no mention of firstfruits for the later harvest as that is conducted after everything has been gathered in - hence it also being called "ingathering".
    This is because Firstfruits is offered at the START of the harvest, and Shavuot is offered which mentions the gleanings (which is NOT mentioned with the other two harvests).
    I hear you. But the grand types of Leviticus 23 were used ONLY to explain why the 144,000 of Revelation 14 are called "firstfruits", and why the innumerable company of Revelation 7, who went through THE Great Tribulation, are not. In the posting you answered I showed you, based on your previous posting, that Leviticus 23 pictured MORE, but that it did not touch our theme. Sure there are details that I did not thouroughly show. I only wanted to enlarge of Matthew 13 which deals with planting, growing and the harvest.

    However, if you want something to chew on, here is my disagreement with you. If Revelation 14 shows EXEMPLARY Christians and calls them FIRSTFRUITS, and Chapter 7 shows SINFUL Christians and they pass through the the Great Tribulation, are not the 144,000 of Revelation 14 those of Revelation 3:10; "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth"? "FIRST-FRUITS is an issue of TIME - those ripe FIRST! and the Overcomers of Revelation 3:10 are kept from THE HOUR - an issue of TIME. The innumerable Company of Revelation 7 went through THE Great Tribulation because their rapture was about 1260 days LATE.
    1. Overcomers = Firstfruits
    2. Sinful Christians = extra heat and dryness (the two things needed for Wheat to mature) which take TIME

    And this is not all. Paul, born again and faithful servant of the Lord through death threats, stonings and beatings, writes in Philippians 3:13-14 that the "UP-Calling" (lit. Gk.) was a PRIZE to be ATTAINED to, and that he had not yet ATTAINED to this. That is, in context with the "special-resurrection" (ex-anastasis - Gk. v.11) there is an UP-calling that is NOT guaranteed. It must be PAID for. It is to be fought for. It is to be ATTAINED by this; "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (v.10). The grammar of 1st Thessalonians 4 13-18 GUARANTEES a rapture to the air and the clouds, but Paul alludes to a rapture that must be ATTAINED to.

    The evidence is overwhelming. If the Rapture is a harvest, then there is a part of it that must WON and part of it that is guaranteed. What decides which one you will partake of? MATURITY! Have you been through all that Christ has? Have you walked His road? Have you known Him and are you known by Him? Has the heat and dryness of "the fellowship of HIS sufferings" and being "made conformable to His death" made you ripe early? Will you be harvested FIRST because you are a MATURE Christian. Paul wrote Philippians 3:10-14 about three years before his martyrdom - and he says under inspiration that he is not yet RIPE. What about you? And don't bother to ask about me! I probably need twice the heat and dryness that you do.

    Having your sins forgiven, having righteousness imputed to you, experiencing the rebirth, partaking of the divine nature and being a son of God IS ALL FOR FREE BY FAITH. But a pre-Tribulation rapture is a PRIZE. The price? YOUR LIFE and YOUR UNDIVIDED LOVE OF JESUS. God is not mocked and His Word is settled in concrete. The PRIZE of the "UP-calling" are to be ATTAINED. To teach other Christians that escape from the Great Tribulation is FREE is the same as teaching that the OIL needed in our VESSELS (not Lamps) IS FOR FREE. Both doctrines lead to TERRIBLE LOSS. Some saints will be KEPT from the HOUR of Tribulation by being redeemed FROM the earth. They will be Virgins, without fault and without guile. They will be FIRSTFRUITS!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope. Matthew 13 simply shows an uprooting of the tares AT harvest time, but no mention of firstfruits or gleanings. It is considered one in this parable.(Or you could argue is outside the scope of what the parable is presenting).
    This is where you are wrong and in danger. Let us examine the Wheat's harvest. The pertinent verses are Matthew 13:24, 30 and 40-43. They read;

    24 "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
    ...
    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
    ...
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."


    Verse 24: The whole parable and the explanation concerns PRIMARILY the Millennial Kingdom.
    Verse 30: There is a HARVEST at the end of this age. That this harvest is also applicable to the Wheat is twofold. (i) Wheat is harvested. It is not grown to fertilize the land. It is grown as a staple diet of men. In John 12:24 the fruit is desired. (ii) The Wheat ended in Christ's BARN - showing a completed harvest.
    Verse 40: This settles the END of the Tares. From this verse onward NOTHING more is said of the Tares.
    Verse 41: The Parable NOW RETURNS TO THE KINGDOM. Who is eligible for the Kingdom? ALL BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS (Jn.3:3-5). Thus, the parable NOW CONSIDERS ALL BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS. Who then offends? Slothful and sinful CHRISTIANS! Who "does iniquity"? Why, THOSE OF MATTHEW 7:21-23 - CHRISTIANS WHO CAST OUT DEMONS WITHOUT IT BEING THE WILL OF THE FATHER, AND CHRISTIANS WHO DO MANY WONDROUS WORKS WITHOUT IT BEING THE WILL OF THE FATHER. The Tares DO NOT OFFEND "in the Kingdom"! They are NOT PART OF THE KINGDOM. Their "seed" was wrong! Their BIRTH was from the womb not the Holy Spirit! The offenders here are slothful, disobedient CHRISTIANS.
    Verse 42: Who is NOW cast into a fire? The Tares? NO! That happened in verse 40! Which fire does verse 40 speak of? The Second Death where "their worm will not die and their fire shall not be quenched": Which Fire does verse 42 speak of? The answer is found in a letter addressed - not to heathen and imposters like the Tares, BUT TO A CHURCH! "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Rev.2:11). That is, those who do NOT OVERCOME will be hurt of the Second Death!
    Verse 43: Who will shine forth IN THE KINGDOM? THE RIGHTEOUS! Not the born again but slothful, iniquitous, disobedient, uncaring, self-serving! The RIGHTEOUS in this verse are CONTRASTED to the Christians who should have stayed in the kingdom but are cast out!

    Far from taking the parable out of its scope, I have addressed what it shows:
    • Wheat planted by our Lord (Jn.12:24)
    • Tares, that look like wheat until the fruit is produced, are sown by Satan
    • The growing - the Church age
    • The end of the age which ends in a HARVEST OF BOTH the Wheat and the Tares - the Tares being first (this is important in later identifying who they are, but which is not part of this thread)
    • The Tares, harvested first, land in a fire
    • The Wheat is harvested and put in the Lord's Barn.
    • In this Barn the angels go to work. They separate Wheat that is RIGHTEOUS from Wheat that "does iniquity"
    • The RIGHTEOUS Wheat shine forth as the SUN. Who is the SUN of righteousness? Jesus (Mal.4:2)! The righteous Wheat is "like" Jesus.
    • The INIQUITOUS Wheat is cast into a similar Fire to the Tares. Whereas the Tares are "destroyed" by the fire, the unrighteous iniquitous Wheat are "hurt" by this fire. They are not consumed. The fire is a Purging Fire. At the end of the Millennium God, "... shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev.21:4).

    Beware of not taking the parable to its logical end.

  3. #33
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Walls, consider the following:

    --when we look at the TWO "firstfruit" of Lev23, verses 10-12 and then verse 17 are the two "firstfruit"... and the second one says it involves "TWO LOAVES" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" [and are "unto the Lord," similar to the Revelation 14:4c wording (re: the 144,000)] (but of "the Church which is His body" is it said, "ye are UN leavened")

    --I believe the 144,000 are "firstfruit" of the WHEAT harvest (WHEAT being harvested by means of a "tribulum," as opposed to the earlier harvest which is harvested by means of tossing into the air and separating the chaff--note that 2Th2:13 [to/for/about "the Church which is His body"] in some versions has it translated there as "hath chosen you firstfruit" and that the word for "hath chosen" is different than the usual Greek words for "chose," this being "G138 - heilato / haireo" which the concordance states is "probably akin to 'airo - G142]' " meaning "I raise, lift up, take away, remove")

    --[note also James 1:18 "a KIND of firstfruit"... seeming to mean there is more than one kind of "firstfruit," each belonging to its own particular "harvest" (I tend to see that there are 3 harvests, as in nature, or at least in the Leviticus 23 chpt [not to be understood as saying 3 "raptures"--I believe "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints)]

    --I believe "the Church which is His body" is not a part of the "WHEAT harvest" (and that the "My barn" [Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50] of the WHEAT harvest is the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth [per Rev19])
    I hear you. Thank you for setting forth your understanding of the harvest. We are quite close. I see the harvest as ONE harvest. For 8 years I lived in a small village in Central Europe. The 4-family house I lived in until I could afford my own, was right on the edge of Maize fields. For eight years I watched the farmers harvest. With the short Central European summer there is only ONE harvest. One harvest of the maize, the wheat, the apples, the cherries and the berries. In ALL cases this one harvest produced THREE events:
    1. The farmers went out and harvested that which was FIRST RIPE. It was over quickly for it was but a small part of the crop. They NEVER TOUCHED that which was not yet ripe.
    2. Then, some days or even weeks later, they did "all-day-and-nighters" on their Combines under powerful lights to get the now ripe "general harvest". They couldn't harvest it a day early or a day too late otherwise they would loose the crop.
    3. The next day, and for days after, the poor people (and the not so poor), mostly wives, could be seen in the field searching among the stalks for "Gleanings"

    If the "gathering of the Church into God's Barn" is a harvest, then there will be three precisely timed "gatherings" - based on how mature the Christians are. Romans 1:19-20 says that the things of the creation show the things of God. And if God says that the end of the age is a harvest, and the Wheat lands in the Barn, then by observing the creation as I did for eight years, one can understand the Rapture and why some Christians miss the Great Tribulation and some Christians must pas through it before they too are raptured. It is ONE harvest - ONE rapture, but in relays.

    I realize that Leviticus 23 is a very rich Chapter. Its Types are many and it show many things. But for this thread we want to know about a harvest, and it shows the same as I observed in nature.

  4. #34

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Raptured to heaven? Yes. But I believe it's after the tribulation. I think the Bible is pretty clear that Jesus has a second coming where he will a) "rapture" us and b) defeat the enemy once and for all. While Revelation doesn't explicitly say when we will be raptured we do know when Jesus comes down to earth and that is after the tribulation. I could only see someone thinking it's pre-tribulation (which for some reason is the most common belief I see nowadays) if they think Jesus is coming back more than just one more time. But you'd think Revelation would take note of that. It doesn't and nowhere does it say that Jesus is coming back more than once. So in my opinion, it's pretty safe to say Jesus is coming back once more after the tribulation to rapture us and defeat the enemy.

  5. #35
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greeny View Post
    It doesn't and nowhere does it say that Jesus is coming back more than once. So in my opinion, it's pretty safe to say Jesus is coming back once more after the tribulation to rapture us and defeat the enemy.
    Yes but it also doesn't say anyone is rapture to Heaven either. They are rapture to be gathered together instead of being spread about all alone. They meet with Christ and the heavenly saints and as you say, Christ isn't going back to heaven. He is going to Earth to defeat an enemy so his raptured saints follow him there.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  6. #36

    Cool Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yes but it also doesn't say anyone is rapture to Heaven either. They are rapture to be gathered together instead of being spread about all alone. They meet with Christ and the heavenly saints and as you say, Christ isn't going back to heaven. He is going to Earth to defeat an enemy so his raptured saints follow him there.
    You are right on there ewq, when Christ comes back He will first gather His church then touch down on the Mount of Olives (Acts 1:11).
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  7. #37
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    You are right on there ewq, when Christ comes back He will first gather His church then touch down on the Mount of Olives (Acts 1:11).
    Thanks...

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    You are right on there ewq, when Christ comes back He will first gather His church then touch down on the Mount of Olives (Acts 1:11).
    Thanks...
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  8. #38
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I hear you. But the grand types of Leviticus 23 were used ONLY to explain why the 144,000 of Revelation 14 are called "firstfruits", and why the innumerable company of Revelation 7, who went through THE Great Tribulation, are not. In the posting you answered I showed you, based on your previous posting, that Leviticus 23 pictured MORE, but that it did not touch our theme. Sure there are details that I did not thouroughly show. I only wanted to enlarge of Matthew 13 which deals with planting, growing and the harvest.
    Only deals with ONE planting, that of wheat, and thus ONE harvest, the harvest of wheat.

    However, if you want something to chew on, here is my disagreement with you. If Revelation 14 shows EXEMPLARY Christians and calls them FIRSTFRUITS, and Chapter 7 shows SINFUL Christians and they pass through the the Great Tribulation, are not the 144,000 of Revelation 14 those of Revelation 3:10; "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth"? "FIRST-FRUITS is an issue of TIME - those ripe FIRST! and the Overcomers of Revelation 3:10 are kept from THE HOUR - an issue of TIME. The innumerable Company of Revelation 7 went through THE Great Tribulation because their rapture was about 1260 days LATE.
    1. Overcomers = Firstfruits
    2. Sinful Christians = extra heat and dryness (the two things needed for Wheat to mature) which take TIME

    And this is not all. Paul, born again and faithful servant of the Lord through death threats, stonings and beatings, writes in Philippians 3:13-14 that the "UP-Calling" (lit. Gk.) was a PRIZE to be ATTAINED to, and that he had not yet ATTAINED to this. That is, in context with the "special-resurrection" (ex-anastasis - Gk. v.11) there is an UP-calling that is NOT guaranteed. It must be PAID for. It is to be fought for. It is to be ATTAINED by this; "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (v.10). The grammar of 1st Thessalonians 4 13-18 GUARANTEES a rapture to the air and the clouds, but Paul alludes to a rapture that must be ATTAINED to.
    I don't see EXEMPLARY Christians in Rev 14 nor SINFUL Christians in Rev 7. So I don't have anything to chew on.
    Rev 3:10 does NOT speak of End Times GT, but of a time of persecution which has ALREADY been and gone.
    Rev 3 is about the time BEFORE the things John is shown from Rev 4 onwards.
    IOW there is a present part of the prophecy, the 7 churches around at the time of Revelation being written, and the a future aspect which starts with the opening of the 1st seal.

    The evidence is overwhelming. If the Rapture is a harvest, then there is a part of it that must WON and part of it that is guaranteed. What decides which one you will partake of? MATURITY! Have you been through all that Christ has? Have you walked His road? Have you known Him and are you known by Him? Has the heat and dryness of "the fellowship of HIS sufferings" and being "made conformable to His death" made you ripe early? Will you be harvested FIRST because you are a MATURE Christian. Paul wrote Philippians 3:10-14 about three years before his martyrdom - and he says under inspiration that he is not yet RIPE. What about you? And don't bother to ask about me! I probably need twice the heat and dryness that you do.

    Having your sins forgiven, having righteousness imputed to you, experiencing the rebirth, partaking of the divine nature and being a son of God IS ALL FOR FREE BY FAITH. But a pre-Tribulation rapture is a PRIZE. The price? YOUR LIFE and YOUR UNDIVIDED LOVE OF JESUS. God is not mocked and His Word is settled in concrete. The PRIZE of the "UP-calling" are to be ATTAINED. To teach other Christians that escape from the Great Tribulation is FREE is the same as teaching that the OIL needed in our VESSELS (not Lamps) IS FOR FREE. Both doctrines lead to TERRIBLE LOSS. Some saints will be KEPT from the HOUR of Tribulation by being redeemed FROM the earth. They will be Virgins, without fault and without guile. They will be FIRSTFRUITS!
    Don't see any overwhelming evidence, I see an assertion, which is yet to be supported by scripture as such.
    All the harvest comes from what is planted, and this is what Matthew 13 highlights.
    There is no ripening early, there are not two raptures, but ONLY ONE.
    1 Thessalonians 4 makes that quite clear, as the dead rise (which is ALL the dead in Christ - not just some of the dead in Christ), and then ALL those who are alive who are in Christ are raptured to join them and meet Jesus in the clouds.

    This is where you are wrong and in danger. Let us examine the Wheat's harvest. The pertinent verses are Matthew 13:24, 30 and 40-43. They read;
    24 "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
    ...
    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
    ...
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."


    Verse 24: The whole parable and the explanation concerns PRIMARILY the Millennial Kingdom.
    Verse 30: There is a HARVEST at the end of this age. That this harvest is also applicable to the Wheat is twofold. (i) Wheat is harvested. It is not grown to fertilize the land. It is grown as a staple diet of men. In John 12:24 the fruit is desired. (ii) The Wheat ended in Christ's BARN - showing a completed harvest.
    Verse 40: This settles the END of the Tares. From this verse onward NOTHING more is said of the Tares.
    Verse 41: The Parable NOW RETURNS TO THE KINGDOM. Who is eligible for the Kingdom? ALL BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS (Jn.3:3-5). Thus, the parable NOW CONSIDERS ALL BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS. Who then offends? Slothful and sinful CHRISTIANS! Who "does iniquity"? Why, THOSE OF MATTHEW 7:21-23 - CHRISTIANS WHO CAST OUT DEMONS WITHOUT IT BEING THE WILL OF THE FATHER, AND CHRISTIANS WHO DO MANY WONDROUS WORKS WITHOUT IT BEING THE WILL OF THE FATHER. The Tares DO NOT OFFEND "in the Kingdom"! They are NOT PART OF THE KINGDOM. Their "seed" was wrong! Their BIRTH was from the womb not the Holy Spirit! The offenders here are slothful, disobedient CHRISTIANS.
    Verse 42: Who is NOW cast into a fire? The Tares? NO! That happened in verse 40! Which fire does verse 40 speak of? The Second Death where "their worm will not die and their fire shall not be quenched": Which Fire does verse 42 speak of? The answer is found in a letter addressed - not to heathen and imposters like the Tares, BUT TO A CHURCH! "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Rev.2:11). That is, those who do NOT OVERCOME will be hurt of the Second Death!
    Verse 43: Who will shine forth IN THE KINGDOM? THE RIGHTEOUS! Not the born again but slothful, iniquitous, disobedient, uncaring, self-serving! The RIGHTEOUS in this verse are CONTRASTED to the Christians who should have stayed in the kingdom but are cast out!
    Verse 24 is not about the MK, but about the Kingdom of Heaven. Now if you want to claim the KoH is ONLY the MK, then that is another discussion.
    Verse 30 simply says the time of harvest. This could be an early harvest tied into Shavuot or a later harvest tied into Ingathering (at which fruit is also harvested). Personally I see it as Ingathering.
    Verse 40, disagree. This is about the tares. The tares is also in verse 42. Verse 41 and 42 is giving more details about verse 40.

    Far from taking the parable out of its scope, I have addressed what it shows:
    • Wheat planted by our Lord (Jn.12:24)
    • Tares, that look like wheat until the fruit is produced, are sown by Satan
    • The growing - the Church age
    • The end of the age which ends in a HARVEST OF BOTH the Wheat and the Tares - the Tares being first (this is important in later identifying who they are, but which is not part of this thread)
    • The Tares, harvested first, land in a fire
    • The Wheat is harvested and put in the Lord's Barn.
    • In this Barn the angels go to work. They separate Wheat that is RIGHTEOUS from Wheat that "does iniquity"
    • The RIGHTEOUS Wheat shine forth as the SUN. Who is the SUN of righteousness? Jesus (Mal.4:2)! The righteous Wheat is "like" Jesus.
    • The INIQUITOUS Wheat is cast into a similar Fire to the Tares. Whereas the Tares are "destroyed" by the fire, the unrighteous iniquitous Wheat are "hurt" by this fire. They are not consumed. The fire is a Purging Fire. At the end of the Millennium God, "... shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev.21:4).

    Beware of not taking the parable to its logical end.
    I do take the parable to its logical end.
    I simply disagree that verse 41 and 42 are not about the Tares.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I hear you. But the grand types of Leviticus 23 were used ONLY to explain why the 144,000 of Revelation 14 are called "firstfruits", and why the innumerable company of Revelation 7, who went through THE Great Tribulation, are not. In the posting you answered I showed you, based on your previous posting, that Leviticus 23 pictured MORE, but that it did not touch our theme. Sure there are details that I did not thouroughly show. I only wanted to enlarge of Matthew 13 which deals with planting, growing and the harvest.
    Only deals with ONE planting, that of wheat, and thus ONE harvest, the harvest of wheat.

    However, if you want something to chew on, here is my disagreement with you. If Revelation 14 shows EXEMPLARY Christians and calls them FIRSTFRUITS, and Chapter 7 shows SINFUL Christians and they pass through the the Great Tribulation, are not the 144,000 of Revelation 14 those of Revelation 3:10; "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth"? "FIRST-FRUITS is an issue of TIME - those ripe FIRST! and the Overcomers of Revelation 3:10 are kept from THE HOUR - an issue of TIME. The innumerable Company of Revelation 7 went through THE Great Tribulation because their rapture was about 1260 days LATE.
    1. Overcomers = Firstfruits
    2. Sinful Christians = extra heat and dryness (the two things needed for Wheat to mature) which take TIME

    And this is not all. Paul, born again and faithful servant of the Lord through death threats, stonings and beatings, writes in Philippians 3:13-14 that the "UP-Calling" (lit. Gk.) was a PRIZE to be ATTAINED to, and that he had not yet ATTAINED to this. That is, in context with the "special-resurrection" (ex-anastasis - Gk. v.11) there is an UP-calling that is NOT guaranteed. It must be PAID for. It is to be fought for. It is to be ATTAINED by this; "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (v.10). The grammar of 1st Thessalonians 4 13-18 GUARANTEES a rapture to the air and the clouds, but Paul alludes to a rapture that must be ATTAINED to.
    I don't see EXEMPLARY Christians in Rev 14 nor SINFUL Christians in Rev 7. So I don't have anything to chew on.
    Rev 3:10 does NOT speak of End Times GT, but of a time of persecution which has ALREADY been and gone.
    Rev 3 is about the time BEFORE the things John is shown from Rev 4 onwards.
    IOW there is a present part of the prophecy, the 7 churches around at the time of Revelation being written, and the a future aspect which starts with the opening of the 1st seal.

    The evidence is overwhelming. If the Rapture is a harvest, then there is a part of it that must WON and part of it that is guaranteed. What decides which one you will partake of? MATURITY! Have you been through all that Christ has? Have you walked His road? Have you known Him and are you known by Him? Has the heat and dryness of "the fellowship of HIS sufferings" and being "made conformable to His death" made you ripe early? Will you be harvested FIRST because you are a MATURE Christian. Paul wrote Philippians 3:10-14 about three years before his martyrdom - and he says under inspiration that he is not yet RIPE. What about you? And don't bother to ask about me! I probably need twice the heat and dryness that you do.

    Having your sins forgiven, having righteousness imputed to you, experiencing the rebirth, partaking of the divine nature and being a son of God IS ALL FOR FREE BY FAITH. But a pre-Tribulation rapture is a PRIZE. The price? YOUR LIFE and YOUR UNDIVIDED LOVE OF JESUS. God is not mocked and His Word is settled in concrete. The PRIZE of the "UP-calling" are to be ATTAINED. To teach other Christians that escape from the Great Tribulation is FREE is the same as teaching that the OIL needed in our VESSELS (not Lamps) IS FOR FREE. Both doctrines lead to TERRIBLE LOSS. Some saints will be KEPT from the HOUR of Tribulation by being redeemed FROM the earth. They will be Virgins, without fault and without guile. They will be FIRSTFRUITS!
    Don't see any overwhelming evidence, I see an assertion, which is yet to be supported by scripture as such.
    All the harvest comes from what is planted, and this is what Matthew 13 highlights.
    There is no ripening early, there are not two raptures, but ONLY ONE.
    1 Thessalonians 4 makes that quite clear, as the dead rise (which is ALL the dead in Christ - not just some of the dead in Christ), and then ALL those who are alive who are in Christ are raptured to join them and meet Jesus in the clouds.

    This is where you are wrong and in danger. Let us examine the Wheat's harvest. The pertinent verses are Matthew 13:24, 30 and 40-43. They read;
    24 "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
    ...
    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
    ...
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."


    Verse 24: The whole parable and the explanation concerns PRIMARILY the Millennial Kingdom.
    Verse 30: There is a HARVEST at the end of this age. That this harvest is also applicable to the Wheat is twofold. (i) Wheat is harvested. It is not grown to fertilize the land. It is grown as a staple diet of men. In John 12:24 the fruit is desired. (ii) The Wheat ended in Christ's BARN - showing a completed harvest.
    Verse 40: This settles the END of the Tares. From this verse onward NOTHING more is said of the Tares.
    Verse 41: The Parable NOW RETURNS TO THE KINGDOM. Who is eligible for the Kingdom? ALL BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS (Jn.3:3-5). Thus, the parable NOW CONSIDERS ALL BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS. Who then offends? Slothful and sinful CHRISTIANS! Who "does iniquity"? Why, THOSE OF MATTHEW 7:21-23 - CHRISTIANS WHO CAST OUT DEMONS WITHOUT IT BEING THE WILL OF THE FATHER, AND CHRISTIANS WHO DO MANY WONDROUS WORKS WITHOUT IT BEING THE WILL OF THE FATHER. The Tares DO NOT OFFEND "in the Kingdom"! They are NOT PART OF THE KINGDOM. Their "seed" was wrong! Their BIRTH was from the womb not the Holy Spirit! The offenders here are slothful, disobedient CHRISTIANS.
    Verse 42: Who is NOW cast into a fire? The Tares? NO! That happened in verse 40! Which fire does verse 40 speak of? The Second Death where "their worm will not die and their fire shall not be quenched": Which Fire does verse 42 speak of? The answer is found in a letter addressed - not to heathen and imposters like the Tares, BUT TO A CHURCH! "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Rev.2:11). That is, those who do NOT OVERCOME will be hurt of the Second Death!
    Verse 43: Who will shine forth IN THE KINGDOM? THE RIGHTEOUS! Not the born again but slothful, iniquitous, disobedient, uncaring, self-serving! The RIGHTEOUS in this verse are CONTRASTED to the Christians who should have stayed in the kingdom but are cast out!
    Verse 24 is not about the MK, but about the Kingdom of Heaven. Now if you want to claim the KoH is ONLY the MK, then that is another discussion.
    Verse 30 simply says the time of harvest. This could be an early harvest tied into Shavuot or a later harvest tied into Ingathering (at which fruit is also harvested). Personally I see it as Ingathering.
    Verse 40, disagree. This is about the tares. The tares is also in verse 42. Verse 41 and 42 is giving more details about verse 40.

    Far from taking the parable out of its scope, I have addressed what it shows:
    • Wheat planted by our Lord (Jn.12:24)
    • Tares, that look like wheat until the fruit is produced, are sown by Satan
    • The growing - the Church age
    • The end of the age which ends in a HARVEST OF BOTH the Wheat and the Tares - the Tares being first (this is important in later identifying who they are, but which is not part of this thread)
    • The Tares, harvested first, land in a fire
    • The Wheat is harvested and put in the Lord's Barn.
    • In this Barn the angels go to work. They separate Wheat that is RIGHTEOUS from Wheat that "does iniquity"
    • The RIGHTEOUS Wheat shine forth as the SUN. Who is the SUN of righteousness? Jesus (Mal.4:2)! The righteous Wheat is "like" Jesus.
    • The INIQUITOUS Wheat is cast into a similar Fire to the Tares. Whereas the Tares are "destroyed" by the fire, the unrighteous iniquitous Wheat are "hurt" by this fire. They are not consumed. The fire is a Purging Fire. At the end of the Millennium God, "... shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev.21:4).

    Beware of not taking the parable to its logical end.
    I do take the parable to its logical end.
    I simply disagree that verse 41 and 42 are not about the Tares.

  9. #39
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greeny View Post
    Raptured to heaven? Yes. But I believe it's after the tribulation. I think the Bible is pretty clear that Jesus has a second coming where he will a) "rapture" us and b) defeat the enemy once and for all. While Revelation doesn't explicitly say when we will be raptured we do know when Jesus comes down to earth and that is after the tribulation. I could only see someone thinking it's pre-tribulation (which for some reason is the most common belief I see nowadays) if they think Jesus is coming back more than just one more time. But you'd think Revelation would take note of that. It doesn't and nowhere does it say that Jesus is coming back more than once. So in my opinion, it's pretty safe to say Jesus is coming back once more after the tribulation to rapture us and defeat the enemy.

    Hi Greeny and welcome to the Forum. You might want to consider this;

    When our Lord Jesus was raptured in Acts 1:9-11, it says in Ephesians 4:10 He, "... ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things." When He returns then, He must make a journey. It will start "above" the highest heavens, proceed through heaven, proceed through the stratosphere, through the Troposphere, through clouds and then finally touch down on Mount Olives (Zech.14:4; Act.1:11-12). If, as 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 says that we meet the Lord IN THE AIR, IN THE CLOUDS, why would our Lord have to come twice? You make a train journey from New York to Los Angeles. Your journey takes you through Chicago. There you meet up with your wife who has been visiting family. Do you have to go the Los Angeles twice to meet your wife in Chicago? It is on the way.

    What might help is the various Greek words used for "Coming":
    • "Erchomai" means "to arrive". That is, you have COME to your destination. We find it in Jude 1:14, "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord ARRIVES with ten thousands of his saints," Now, "arrives" implies the end of a journey. But the word itself does not show the destination. So, our Lord Jesus, on His journey, can "arrive" at an intermediate destination, or he can "arrive" at the final destination. The sense and context must decide.
    • "Parousia" means "present". On a journey from New York to Los Angeles by train, you are "present" all the time in the train, and you are "present" at all your intermediate stops. So, in 1 Thessalonians 4:15, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the PRESENCE of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep", we only know that Lord is PRESENT. He could be present in heaven, in the clouds, on Mount Olives or in Bozrah. The text and context must tell. In the verse above it is given by the context that our Lord will be "PRESENT" in the clouds where we will meet Him.
    • "Apokalypsis" means that someone or something is REVEALED. From this we have the other name of the book of Revelation - "Apocalypse". So 2 Thessalonians 1:7 says; "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED from heaven with his mighty angels".

    So, the following scenarios are possible.
    • Our Lord Jesus leaves the highest heaven and is PRESENT in the clouds. He has not ARRIVED on earth nor been REVEALED to men.
    • Our Lord Jesus is to meet His Church in the clouds, so when He is PRESENT in the clouds He has ARRIVED - but will go further, later
    • Our Lord Jesus is to save Jerusalem and fight the Beast and his armies at Armageddon. So he is REVEALED from the clouds, ARRIVES on earth and is PRESENT firt at Jerusalem and then later at Armageddon.

    The reason I show you this is that in studying the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus, we must pay attention to the Greek word used AND the context. our Lord Jesus can have ARRIVED and He could be PRESENT but still not REVEALED. Or, from earth's point of view, He could be PRESENT in the clouds, but not PRESENT on the earth. He could have ARRIVED in the clouds but not ARRIVED on earth. He could be REVEALED to His Church in the clouds but not REVEALED to men on earth.

    This helped me immensely once it was pointed out to me.

  10. #40
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Hi Greeny and welcome to the Forum. You might want to consider this;

    When our Lord Jesus was raptured in Acts 1:9-11, it says in Ephesians 4:10 He, "... ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things." When He returns then, He must make a journey. It will start "above" the highest heavens, proceed through heaven, proceed through the stratosphere, through the Troposphere, through clouds and then finally touch down on Mount Olives (Zech.14:4; Act.1:11-12). If, as 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 says that we meet the Lord IN THE AIR, IN THE CLOUDS, why would our Lord have to come twice? You make a train journey from New York to Los Angeles. Your journey takes you through Chicago. There you meet up with your wife who has been visiting family. Do you have to go the Los Angeles twice to meet your wife in Chicago? It is on the way.

    What might help is the various Greek words used for "Coming":
    • "Erchomai" means "to arrive". That is, you have COME to your destination. We find it in Jude 1:14, "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord ARRIVES with ten thousands of his saints," Now, "arrives" implies the end of a journey. But the word itself does not show the destination. So, our Lord Jesus, on His journey, can "arrive" at an intermediate destination, or he can "arrive" at the final destination. The sense and context must decide.
    • "Parousia" means "present". On a journey from New York to Los Angeles by train, you are "present" all the time in the train, and you are "present" at all your intermediate stops. So, in 1 Thessalonians 4:15, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the PRESENCE of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep", we only know that Lord is PRESENT. He could be present in heaven, in the clouds, on Mount Olives or in Bozrah. The text and context must tell. In the verse above it is given by the context that our Lord will be "PRESENT" in the clouds where we will meet Him.
    • "Apokalypsis" means that someone or something is REVEALED. From this we have the other name of the book of Revelation - "Apocalypse". So 2 Thessalonians 1:7 says; "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED from heaven with his mighty angels".

    So, the following scenarios are possible.
    • Our Lord Jesus leaves the highest heaven and is PRESENT in the clouds. He has not ARRIVED on earth nor been REVEALED to men.
    • Our Lord Jesus is to meet His Church in the clouds, so when He is PRESENT in the clouds He has ARRIVED - but will go further, later
    • Our Lord Jesus is to save Jerusalem and fight the Beast and his armies at Armageddon. So he is REVEALED from the clouds, ARRIVES on earth and is PRESENT firt at Jerusalem and then later at Armageddon.

    The reason I show you this is that in studying the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus, we must pay attention to the Greek word used AND the context. our Lord Jesus can have ARRIVED and He could be PRESENT but still not REVEALED. Or, from earth's point of view, He could be PRESENT in the clouds, but not PRESENT on the earth. He could have ARRIVED in the clouds but not ARRIVED on earth. He could be REVEALED to His Church in the clouds but not REVEALED to men on earth.

    This helped me immensely once it was pointed out to me.
    Greeny
    Another word Walls omitted, that is also relevant, is the Greek word Epiphanea. It also means 'Appearing' and is used to denote the Lord's Appearing at His return.

    Studying these Greek root words are great, because they can also help you understand that the Lord's Rapture and final return to the Earth; are not separated by 7 years as dispensationalism teaches; but rather; both occur as Jesus is on the way down; at the same time.
    The words Erchomai, Parousia, Apokalypsis, and Epipanea are all used interchangeable for both the rapture, change, gathering event and resurrection of believers; as well as the aspect of His return involving the judgment and destruction of the wicked.

    Knowing these words well; provides a strong clear case for a single post-trib return of the Lord from Heaven, encompassing all aspects into that single, glorious descent. (as opposed to the two-coming-ed phased alternative, that became popular in the early 19th century)

  11. #41
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Only deals with ONE planting, that of wheat, and thus ONE harvest, the harvest of wheat.


    I don't see EXEMPLARY Christians in Rev 14 nor SINFUL Christians in Rev 7. So I don't have anything to chew on.
    Rev 3:10 does NOT speak of End Times GT, but of a time of persecution which has ALREADY been and gone.
    Rev 3 is about the time BEFORE the things John is shown from Rev 4 onwards.
    IOW there is a present part of the prophecy, the 7 churches around at the time of Revelation being written, and the a future aspect which starts with the opening of the 1st seal.


    Don't see any overwhelming evidence, I see an assertion, which is yet to be supported by scripture as such.
    All the harvest comes from what is planted, and this is what Matthew 13 highlights.
    There is no ripening early, there are not two raptures, but ONLY ONE.
    1 Thessalonians 4 makes that quite clear, as the dead rise (which is ALL the dead in Christ - not just some of the dead in Christ), and then ALL those who are alive who are in Christ are raptured to join them and meet Jesus in the clouds.


    Verse 24 is not about the MK, but about the Kingdom of Heaven. Now if you want to claim the KoH is ONLY the MK, then that is another discussion.
    Verse 30 simply says the time of harvest. This could be an early harvest tied into Shavuot or a later harvest tied into Ingathering (at which fruit is also harvested). Personally I see it as Ingathering.
    Verse 40, disagree. This is about the tares. The tares is also in verse 42. Verse 41 and 42 is giving more details about verse 40.


    I do take the parable to its logical end.
    I simply disagree that verse 41 and 42 are not about the Tares.
    Good. You have stated your case and you see what you see. I have nothing more to add except a short comment on your take of Revelation 3:10. When John is commanded to write to the the seven Churches he is commanded to write to THE Seven Churches. Although the article is not written, it is implied and all the best translators do not dispute this. Added to this, the context supports the usage of "the" because by 95 AD there were many more than seven local Churches. Thus, when John writes to THE seven Churches they are a selection of Local Churches that REPRESENT all the Church in every place. This is further proven by the fact that John must write every letter to every Church (v.11). If it be the case that these seven Churches are REPRESENTATIVE of all Churches everywhere, then they must be written to your Local Church as well - and mine. And if so, they are still valid today.

    And if they are valid today the admonishment is still valid. In my travels I have seen every problem of the seven Churches in action before my eyes in my own Local Church and in the Local Churches I have visited. What makes these warnings so VALID for today is the the FOUR LAST Churches ALL are warned of the Lord's imminent and sudden coming. That is, our Lord will COME while that problem exists in the seven Churches. If that is so, then Revelation 3:10 is valid for today. But there is even more evidence that Revelation 3:10 is still valid for today. It reads;

    "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon ALL the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."


    It is still FUTURE for although the earth has seen wars, famines and pestilence in diverse places, there has never been one universal TRIAL of "ALL the world" since Noah.

    I propose that Revelation 3:10 applies to all Christians who ever lived. The Thessalonians were worried about this and Paul answers them. And to day, we Christians know that (i) this Great Trial over ALL men is not far off, and (ii) the promise in that verse is yet to be carried out seeing as it addresses the LIVING at the time of this TRIAL. (The dead are in Hades and will not experience the Great Tribulation.)

    There is no escape from the fact that Revelation 3:10 can ONLY address Christians LIVING at the onset of the Great Tribulation.

    To the rest, thank you for the exchange and God bless.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Good. You have stated your case and you see what you see. I have nothing more to add except a short comment on your take of Revelation 3:10. When John is commanded to write to the the seven Churches he is commanded to write to THE Seven Churches. Although the article is not written, it is implied and all the best translators do not dispute this. Added to this, the context supports the usage of "the" because by 95 AD there were many more than seven local Churches. Thus, when John writes to THE seven Churches they are a selection of Local Churches that REPRESENT all the Church in every place. This is further proven by the fact that John must write every letter to every Church (v.11). If it be the case that these seven Churches are REPRESENTATIVE of all Churches everywhere, then they must be written to your Local Church as well - and mine. And if so, they are still valid today.
    The claim they represent ALL the Church in every place is simply a claim, but without any backing from Revelation itself. In fact Revelation shows the OPPOSITE.
    The things stated are SPECIFIC to each church and a re not for every Church.
    Every church can learn from it, just as we can learn from the letter to Ephesus, or Corinth. However that does NOT make Corinth every church, nor Ephesus.

    There is no escape from the fact that Revelation 3:10 can ONLY address Christians LIVING at the onset of the Great Tribulation.
    To the rest, thank you for the exchange and God bless.
    Rev 3:10* Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

    No mention of the Great Tribulation, but simply an hour of trial that will come on the whole world. Some interpret that to mean the GT, but it isn't what is stated.
    The question is what is meant by whole world CONTEXTUALLY?
    The simple answer is the Roman World, which was the world in which ALL these churches were to be found. Yet John was noting this trial would be for an area greater than simply Asia Minor, where these churches were.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The claim they represent ALL the Church in every place is simply a claim, but without any backing from Revelation itself. In fact Revelation shows the OPPOSITE.
    The things stated are SPECIFIC to each church and a re not for every Church.
    Every church can learn from it, just as we can learn from the letter to Ephesus, or Corinth. However that does NOT make Corinth every church, nor Ephesus.


    Rev 3:10* Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

    No mention of the Great Tribulation, but simply an hour of trial that will come on the whole world. Some interpret that to mean the GT, but it isn't what is stated.
    The question is what is meant by whole world CONTEXTUALLY?
    The simple answer is the Roman World, which was the world in which ALL these churches were to be found. Yet John was noting this trial would be for an area greater than simply Asia Minor, where these churches were.

    Another point that is not recognized by the pretrib view; is that Revelation 3:10's phrase 'Kept from' the hour; is the Greek Teruo Ek.
    Teruo Ek is only found in one other place in the bible; and it shows the context to be 'kept from while remaining present end through an event; like all OT examples of plagues, wrath, and tribulation always show as precendence.
    ....not removal from the planet to escape the event.


    Here is the other verse. It is taught specifically from Jesus, the one who is doing the event, coincidentally.

    Jesus taught, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [TEROU EK] from the evil one." John 16:15

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Another point that is not recognized by the pretrib view; is that Revelation 3:10's phrase 'Kept from' the hour; is the Greek Teruo Ek.
    Teruo Ek is only found in one other place in the bible; and it shows the context to be 'kept from while remaining present end through an event; like all OT examples of plagues, wrath, and tribulation always show as precendence.
    ....not removal from the planet to escape the event.


    Here is the other verse. It is taught specifically from Jesus, the one who is doing the event, coincidentally.

    Jesus taught, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [TEROU EK] from the evil one." John 16:15
    Thank you for that. I was aware but had forgotten.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Greeny
    Another word Walls omitted, that is also relevant, is the Greek word Epiphanea. It also means 'Appearing' and is used to denote the Lord's Appearing at His return.

    Studying these Greek root words are great, because they can also help you understand that the Lord's Rapture and final return to the Earth; are not separated by 7 years as dispensationalism teaches; but rather; both occur as Jesus is on the way down; at the same time.
    The words Erchomai, Parousia, Apokalypsis, and Epipanea are all used interchangeable for both the rapture, change, gathering event and resurrection of believers; as well as the aspect of His return involving the judgment and destruction of the wicked.

    Knowing these words well; provides a strong clear case for a single post-trib return of the Lord from Heaven, encompassing all aspects into that single, glorious descent. (as opposed to the two-coming-ed phased alternative, that became popular in the early 19th century)
    You are correct. I omitted "Epiphaneia". It means "the manifestation". The sense of the word is how the object looked. In 2nd Thessalonians 2:8 it is rendered ... "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.". It does define our Lord's "appearing" but not one of the verses it is used (6 times altogether) will further your quest to settle the sequence of our Lord's coming and our rapture to Him. Or maybe you could expound the verses in which it appears so that we can all see how it pertains to the rapture. I'm always open.

    Your grudge against "Dispensationalism" has a downside. You tag one doctrine with the name "Dispensationalism", and then revile it. But Dispensationalism is a Biblical fact without prophecy, without the Rapture, without the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus and without a TIME-LINE. The Greek word rendered "Dispensation" is "Oikonomia". It means "Household Management" or "Stewardship". The sense is of a mother "dispensing" food to a hungry family. "Dispensation" appears in the following verses, 1st Corinthians 9:17, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2 and Colossians 1:25, and it ALWAYS means "Dispensing". Next, since Ephesians 3:2, which reads; "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward", it is clear that Paul received a different ministry to Moses. Moses "Dispensed" the Law. Thus, independent of TIME, those who adhere to Moses have a different Dispensing to those who adhere to Paul's teaching. Without any TIME FRAME (for Jews today still adhere to Moses), there are at least TWO dispensations and they run concurrently.

    So maybe it is better to select a man and his doctrine and then argue it. Putting a rat in a box and then calling all who disagree with you rats is effective, but not conducive to the truth. If you are not sure, then please, either tell me my doctrine (with proof), and expose why it is wrong. Or are you going to consign me to a box - one you have attached a suspicious tag to?

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