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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #46
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Here is a study which I did a little while ago

    What and when is the rapture?

    Does the bible really teach us that the rapture is the church being rescued by Jesus from a 7 year tribulation?

    The rapture or a seven year tribulation are not mentioned in the book of Revelation. The book of Revelation shows the church going through a 3 1/2 year persecution by a beast. This is a modern interpretation. In order to obtain truth, we need to be willing to sacrifice cherished traditions on the alter of scriptural revelation. This is what we will propose in this article.

    What the book of Revelation doesn’t say about the rapture.

    The book of Revelation was given with a specific warning to 7 churches of what would soon take place. Within this book of the bible a solemn promise is given that Jesus will stand with them and reward them for their trials and tribulations. The book of Revelation is written for us but not written to us.

    Why would God choose one generation to be saved from persecutions and all of the other generations to suffer through them? It is great a privilege to suffer for Christ.

    Here are some verses in the bible that leads some to believe is applicable to the rapture.

    Revelation 4:1*2 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

    This is not the rapture. It says come up here and I will show YOU (meaning John) what must take place after this. John is taken in the Spirit and receives a vision in heaven.

    Some also believe that Revelation 3:10*-12 is the rapture.

    Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

    In Revelation 3:11-*12 Jesus tells them to hold on so that no one can take their crown so they can overcome and be rewarded. This was a personable letter given to the church of Philadelphia, it wasn’t written to us, instead it was written for us.
    Is the rapture in the Olivet Discourse?

    Some also believe that Matthew 24:31 is the rapture

    And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his ELECT from the four winds,from one end of the heavens to the other.

    This is not the rapture either. Matthew, Mark and Luke tell us that the ELECT are the chosen Jews that God saved during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. 1.1 million Jews were killed during the siege on Jerusalem and 97 000 people were taken captives.

    These verses are during this conflict that was in their future and in our past.

    1.Mark 13:20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the ELECT, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them

    2.Luke 21:24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    3.Matthew 24:22-*24 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the ELECT those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the ELECT

    The ones taken in Matthew 24:40*-41 are not raptured either, they are taken in judgment.

    Matthew 24:36-*41 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

    In Noah’s time it was better to be left than to be taken.

    In verse 39, the flood came and took them away. They are taken in judgment and the people were killed by the flood. The ones left behind were on the ark safe and sound. The ones in Noah’s day are taken away just like the ones in verse 40*-41 are taken away. They are taken away in judgment. I want to be left behind safe and secure.

    What did Paul teach us that the rapture is for? When it would occur?

    There are two main teaching by Paul on the rapture,the first one is:

    1.1 Thessalonians 4:13*-18 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

    The second example that is used is in 1st Corinthians.

    1 Corinthians 15:35*-58 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

    42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life*giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

    50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true:

    “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

    55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

    There is also no mention of a tribulation upon the earth or a persecution upon the saints after these events. Paul tells us that the rapture is only for changing of our bodies so we can enter heaven. Paul also says that this happens at the last trumpet. The last trumpet is the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15.The number seven means completeness to God, the completeness of Gods wrath is finished. Remember there was also a trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

    Back to Revelation

    Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

    The voices say that Jesus will reign for ever and ever, not for just a 1000 years on the earth.

    The 24 elders say in Revelation 11:18 say (at the seventh trumpet)

    The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

    The time has come for judging the dead and rewarding your servants and for destroying the earth. The judging the dead happens in Revelation 20:12 after Satan is defeated and cast into hell which is after the 1000 years.

    And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

    The destroying of the ones who destroyed the earth is in Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 22:12*-13 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

    Jesus says here that when he comes he will reward us and give to each person according to what they have done. Jesus does this on the judgment day in Revelation chapter 20. Jesus also says that he is the beginning and the end, Jesus made the earth in the beginning and will come at the end. I believe that the rapture is at the end of Satan’s release right before he is cast into hell. The 1000 years is not what most people think. The bible does not say that the 1000 years is a time of peace or on the earth because Satan is bound from doing any evil. There is no mention Jesus being on the earth during the 1000 years in the book of Revelation. I believe that we are in the 1000 years now, and possibly in the time of Satan’ release. The 1000 year reign and the 1000 year binding start, and end, at different times in Revelation 20. The binding starts in verse 2 and ends in verse 7. The reign starts in verse 4 and ends in verse 11 & 12 verse 5 tells us this. The 1000 year reign ends after Satan is released defeated and cast into hell. Satan is only bound by deceiving the nations because of the message of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit.

  2. #47

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Why would God choose one generation to be saved from persecutions and all of the other generations to suffer through them? It is great a privilege to suffer for Christ.
    This ^ is an oft misunderstood viewpoint of the purpose of our Rapture. "The Church which is His body" has been (and will continue to) experience/-ing "persecutions" and "suffering" and "tribulations" ALL THROUGH its ENTIRE existence on the earth (since its beginning the first century). In fact, Paul was writing to the Thessalonians to acknowledge just that, note his words...

    in 2Th1:4 :

    Berean Literal Bible
    so as for us ourselves to boast in you in the churches of God about your endurance and faith in all your persecutions, and in the tribulations that you are bearing.

    New American Standard Bible
    therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

    King James Bible
    So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:


    This was the purpose of his second letter to them, because (in part, due to their present and very negative, ONGOING persecutions and tribulations THEY WERE PRESENTLY ENDURING) they were being [wrongly] convinced [and easily / understandably VERY DISTRAUGHT over thinking] that "the Day of the Lord [time period which unfolds upon the earth] IS PRESENT". It wasn't, and Paul is telling them "WHY" it is not so!

    Additionally, Paul refers to our Rapture something like 10 times in these 2 epistles (using various terms and phrases for it). AND the SEQUENCE (how one event "fits" TIME-WISE IN RELATION TO other events) is repeated 3x in 2Th2, and is the SAME SEQUENCE as was also given in 1Th4-5 (which SEQUENCE, by the way, is the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE to the circumstances shown in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 when the angels will "REAP" at the time surrounding His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [promised to Israel, not to "the Church which is His body"]).

    No, "the Church which is His body" experiences "persecutions, sufferings, tribulations" ALL THRU its existence on the earth (from the 1st century until our Rapture; which Rapture is for more PURPOSE than what most realize )

  3. #48
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    This ^ is an oft misunderstood viewpoint of the purpose of our Rapture. "The Church which is His body" has been (and will continue to) experience/-ing "persecutions" and "suffering" and "tribulations" ALL THROUGH its ENTIRE existence on the earth (since its beginning the first century). In fact, Paul was writing to the Thessalonians to acknowledge just that, note his words...

    in 2Th1:4 :

    Berean Literal Bible
    so as for us ourselves to boast in you in the churches of God about your endurance and faith in all your persecutions, and in the tribulations that you are bearing.

    New American Standard Bible
    therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

    King James Bible
    So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:


    This was the purpose of his second letter to them, because (in part, due to their present and very negative, ONGOING persecutions and tribulations THEY WERE PRESENTLY ENDURING) they were being [wrongly] convinced [and easily / understandably VERY DISTRAUGHT over thinking] that "the Day of the Lord [time period which unfolds upon the earth] IS PRESENT". It wasn't, and Paul is telling them "WHY" it is not so!

    Additionally, Paul refers to our Rapture something like 10 times in these 2 epistles (using various terms and phrases for it). AND the SEQUENCE (how one event "fits" TIME-WISE IN RELATION TO other events) is repeated 3x in 2Th2, and is the SAME SEQUENCE as was also given in 1Th4-5 (which SEQUENCE, by the way, is the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE to the circumstances shown in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 when the angels will "REAP" at the time surrounding His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [promised to Israel, not to "the Church which is His body"]).

    No, "the Church which is His body" experiences "persecutions, sufferings, tribulations" ALL THRU its existence on the earth (from the 1st century until our Rapture; which Rapture is for more PURPOSE than what most realize )
    So are you agreeing with me because I am saying that the church will always suffer persecution and will not escape it?

  4. #49
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The claim they represent ALL the Church in every place is simply a claim, but without any backing from Revelation itself. In fact Revelation shows the OPPOSITE.
    The things stated are SPECIFIC to each church and a re not for every Church.
    Every church can learn from it, just as we can learn from the letter to Ephesus, or Corinth. However that does NOT make Corinth every church, nor Ephesus.


    Rev 3:10* Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

    No mention of the Great Tribulation, but simply an hour of trial that will come on the whole world. Some interpret that to mean the GT, but it isn't what is stated.
    The question is what is meant by whole world CONTEXTUALLY?
    The simple answer is the Roman World, which was the world in which ALL these churches were to be found. Yet John was noting this trial would be for an area greater than simply Asia Minor, where these churches were.
    Fair enough. Every man sees what he sees, but it would have been nice if you had addressed what the verse addressed.
    • The Overcomers of Philadelphia are "KEPT FROM". The Root: "a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause." (Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary). It's sense is "starting at this point, and with motion, proceeding".
    • The Overcomers of Philadelphia are "kept from THE HOUR". The reward for their keeping of Christ's word of patience is not to be kept IN the Trial, but KEPT FROM the TIME that the trial takes.

    The verse, in relatively plain language, says that the Philadelphian Overcomers at some point will start a motion away from a time when all the world has a trial.

    And our esteemed brother David Taylor's understanding of John 17:15 will not help. Let us examine it an its context. It reads: [I]"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil (one)."
    • For brother David Taylor's comparison to be true the verse should have read; "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the WORLD." He mixes two things whereas Revelation 3:10 only introduces ONE.
    • Brother David Taylor ignores the fact that this TRIAL over all the earth is God WRATH on ungodliness of men. Christ's salvation is exactly what KEEPS us from this wrath. In context with "that day" in 1st Thessalonians 5:9, the inspired record says; "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" And then IMMEDIATELY TELLS US HOW! Verse 10 reads; "Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.". The previous verses show how we will be WITH our Lord Jesus in the air and the clouds and now, in the same context, tells us how we escape God's wrath - BY BEING WITH JESUS. Is our Lord Jesus to return to earth to suffer the Great Tribulation! NO! He is in the process of traveling from heaven to earth to execute the final portion of God's wrath - the battle of Armageddon, and pauses in the clouds to judge His Church.
    • The context of John 17:15 is different to Revelation 3:10. The context is God raising up a Church for His Name. Verse 18 says; "As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world." The Disciples spoken of in John 17:15 are at the beginning of being "salt" and "light". The world in which they are to be salt and light hates salt, for it prevents corruption, and hates light, for it reveals their darkness. The result is that Satan, "Prince of this world" would stir up men to hate, persecute and try to annihilate this testimony. So for the gospel age our Lord Jesus prays the Father to keep them. But not the Great Tribulation. It is God's judgement on ungodliness. Romans 1:18 predicts that at a certain time; "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" For two thousand years God holds back and offers grace and reconciliation. But then the "times of the Gentiles are full". They embrace a Roman king after being told of Jesus and His goodness and love. It is GOD not the world that unleashes torment on men from heaven as the Seals are opened in heaven. This torment, this trial is universal. It is over ALL the earth. If you are on earth you CANNOT escape. The last time that God's wrath caused universal judgement an Ark is supplied to KEEP Noah and family. This time a Rapture is set up for NOWHERE ON EARTH is there NO TRIBULATION. You cannot be kept from the Tribulation if you are earth.

    Finally, for the record, I have, in this thread, and all the others on this subject, maintained an argument for a harvest with three gatherings. I have consistently told of Overcomers being removed from God's wrath. I have also said that the bulk of Christianity pass through the Great Tribulation. Let me not be branded as a "Pre-Triber". It would be a deep dishonesty coming from fellow Christians.
    1. The Overcomers who are LIVING at the time of the great Tribulation are removed BEFORE the onset.
    2. The BULK of apostate Christianity pass through it
    3. Some very special saints also pass through it - notably the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11

    So my last question to brother David Taylor is, concerning these last two - ARE THEY KEPT???
    • THE TWO WITNESSES ARE NOT KEPT!!
    • And of the bulk of Christianity we read in Revelation 13:7; "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: ... ." ARE THEY KEPT. NO! They Beast Overcomes them!!!

  5. #50
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    the sequence of our Lord's coming and our rapture to Him. Or maybe you could expound the verses in which it appears so that we can all see how it pertains to the rapture. I'm always open.
    I will be happy to share the verses, that show there is 1 single future erchromai, parousia, apoklyptis, epiphanea of the Lord; at one time; not two 7-year separated events.
    Will try to get to that later today.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Your grudge against "Dispensationalism" has a downside. You tag one doctrine with the name "Dispensationalism", and then revile it.

    Putting a rat in a box and then calling all who disagree with you rats is effective, but not conducive to the truth. If you are not sure, then please, either tell me my doctrine (with proof), and expose why it is wrong. Or are you going to consign me to a box - one you have attached a suspicious tag to?
    Ok, me saying I disagree with the "dispensational view" (pretrib) of how the components of Christ's return are separated into two coming events separate by 7 years; is not having a grudge or reviling it.
    Also, the naming of rats, and putting rats in a box is your words not mine.

    Disagreeing with a viewpoint, is not personally reviling individuals or any of that such.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Fair enough. Every man sees what he sees, but it would have been nice if you had addressed what the verse addressed.
    • The Overcomers of Philadelphia are "KEPT FROM". The Root: "a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause." (Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary). It's sense is "starting at this point, and with motion, proceeding".
    • The Overcomers of Philadelphia are "kept from THE HOUR". The reward for their keeping of Christ's word of patience is not to be kept IN the Trial, but KEPT FROM the TIME that the trial takes.

    The verse, in relatively plain language, says that the Philadelphian Overcomers at some point will start a motion away from a time when all the world has a trial.
    Rev 3:10 simply means kept from the trial which will occur at a certain time.
    Even IF I accept it refers to an example of a church, I can't reject what it must mean for that SPECIFIC church, which means that the church in Philadelphia was NOT raptured, but did not experience the trial experienced by others.
    Now once we accept it has a meaning of a SPECIFIC church then that meaning can also be understood in general terms which therefore means there is no rapture in view either.

    And our esteemed brother David Taylor's understanding of John 17:15 will not help. Let us examine it an its context. It reads: [I]"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil (one)."
    [LIST][*]For brother David Taylor's comparison to be true the verse should have read; "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the WORLD." He mixes two things whereas Revelation 3:10 only introduces ONE.
    Not really.
    The first part is actually a denial of a rapture, as the word for take is airo, which is to raise.
    The second then fits exactly and speaks of the opposite, which is tereo and means guard or protect.

    This means that though we are in the world, and thus will be persecuted by it, yet Jesus prays for God's protection over us through it.

    Finally, for the record, I have, in this thread, and all the others on this subject, maintained an argument for a harvest with three gatherings. I have consistently told of Overcomers being removed from God's wrath. I have also said that the bulk of Christianity pass through the Great Tribulation. Let me not be branded as a "Pre-Triber". It would be a deep dishonesty coming from fellow Christians.
    Actually your view would make you a pretrib, midtrib / pre wrath and possibly post trib.
    I think I understand where you are making your claims from, and find that I am not persuaded at all.
    Mainly as I note there are three harvests, but ONLY one at the end.
    That the Tares are removed DURING that harvest, and this is the removal of the ungodly from the church. It is therefore NOT a removal of the godly by rapture, but a removal through a falling away and excising out.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    ough it - notably the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11

    So my last question to brother David Taylor is, concerning these last two - ARE THEY KEPT???
    [*]THE TWO WITNESSES ARE NOT KEPT!![*]And of the bulk of Christianity we read in Revelation 13:7; "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: ... ." ARE THEY KEPT. NO! They Beast Overcomes them!!!
    My point isn't that all people are kept or not kept.

    My point is, the usage of the term 'kept from' does not mean a removal from the planet for protection.

    Jesus didn't spoke the opposite meaning of 'kept from' in John 17:15.

    When the flood came, Noah and family and animals were kept from the wrath, while remaining on the planet, and God protecting them through the storm.

    When the fire and brimstone came, Lot and family were kept from the wrath, while remaining on the planet, and God protecting them through the storm.

    When the wrath and plagues of Egypt came, the Hebrew children were kept from the wrath, while remaining on the planet, and God protecting them through the storm.

    When Shadrach, Mishach, and Abednigo were cast into the fiery furnace, they were kept from the wrath, while remaining on the planet, and God protecting them through the storm.

    Bible precidence after precidence, shows God protecting his faithful through the storms, while them remain on the planet during the storm.

    Revelation 3:10 shouldn't be interpretted and expected any differently.
    Especially since Paul told us in Thessalonians that there would be believers who are alive and remain until the 2nd Advent of the Lord; and also since Revelation shows believers alive and on the Earth throughout almost every chapter.

    God knows how to protect His, if it is in His will.
    Yes sometimes God allows His people to die or be maryted; so noone can expect to be kept if the Lord decides it is their time.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    This is a difficult undertaking to organize into a readable html table view.
    Let's start with the writings to the Thessalonians about Christ's return; and see if this is edifyable to us or not.


    Greek word, and most common translated English Word.

    3952 Parousia (Coming)
    2015 Epiphanea (Appearing)
    601/602 Apokalypsis (Revelation)
    2064 Erchromai (Coming)
    726 Harpazo (Caught up)


    Chapter Greek Word Participants
    1 Thess 2 Parousia v19 believers v19
    1 Thess 3 Parousia v13 believers v13
    1 Thess 4 Parousia v15, Harpazo v17, Epiphanea, Apokalypsis believers v15-18
    1 Thess 5 Parousia v23, Epiphanea, Apokalypsis believers v 1-2, 4-6, 8-28, wicked 2-5,7,9
    2 Thess 1 Apoklypsis, v7, Erchomai v10 believers v3-7, 10, wicked, v8-10
    2 Thess 2 Parousia v1, v8, Epiphanea v8, Apokalypsis, v3, v6, v8 believers v1, wicked, v8

    Above mentioned focal passages:

    "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

    "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. "

    "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. "

    "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together; And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

    "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. "

    "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    The ones taken in Matthew 24:40*-41 are not raptured either, they are taken in judgment.
    Yes taken in judgment but positive judgment to receive immortality and be brought to Christ, they are taken (which is what rapture means) at the second coming which is the timeframe Christ sets the one taken within. It is the one left (which means rejected and left to die in the Greek) which is judged to punishment and death most notably found in the battle of Armageddon where the righteous ones are taken to witness the slaughter.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yes taken in judgment but positive judgment to receive immortality and be brought to Christ, they are taken (which is what rapture means) at the second coming which is the timeframe Christ sets the one taken within. It is the one left (which means rejected and left to die in the Greek) which is judged to punishment and death most notably found in the battle of Armageddon where the righteous ones are taken to witness the slaughter.
    You have it backwards ewq on this one.

    It is easy to do; because the pretrib view (who's motto is 'Left Behind') often gets it backwards by only looking at Matthew's account of those taken and those left.
    Matthew 24's account is more generic, and doesn't give the details of the taken/left part.

    To get the backwards problem fixed, and to know that those who are taken are taken not in rapture to immortality or heaven; but rather taken to wicked destruction; you need to review the lesser referenced and more detailed Luke 17 account.

    Here it is:

    17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
    17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
    17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
    17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
    17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
    17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
    17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    17:37 And they answered and said unto him, (Taken)Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body(carcasse) is, thither will the eagles(vultures) be gathered together.


    Luke says those who in Noah and Lot's day were destroyed; will also be the same in Jesus' Revelation day; they will be taken to destruction; where their bodies will be feasted on by the buzzards.
    Luke quotes the OT here...same as John does in Revelation; as to the analogy of the wicked taken to destruction and fed upon by the vultures.

    Isaiah 16:4 They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

    Isaiah 34:20 I will even give them into the hand of their enemies, and into the hand of them that seek their life: and their dead bodies shall be for meat unto the fowls of the heaven, and to the beasts of the earth.

    Revelation the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Jesus shows the same order here also, in Matthew 13:

    "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. "

    The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father

    "So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire"


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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yes taken in judgment but positive judgment to receive immortality and be brought to Christ, they are taken (which is what rapture means) at the second coming which is the timeframe Christ sets the one taken within. It is the one left (which means rejected and left to die in the Greek) which is judged to punishment and death most notably found in the battle of Armageddon where the righteous ones are taken to witness the slaughter.
    In Noahs day it was better to be left behind

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    You have it backwards ewq on this one.

    It is easy to do; because the pretrib view (who's motto is 'Left Behind') often gets it backwards by only looking at Matthew's account of those taken and those left.
    Matthew 24's account is more generic, and doesn't give the details of the taken/left part.

    To get the backwards problem fixed, and to know that those who are taken are taken not in rapture to immortality or heaven; but rather taken to wicked destruction; you need to review the lesser referenced and more detailed Luke 17 account.

    Here it is:

    17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
    17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
    17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
    17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
    17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
    17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
    17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    17:37 And they answered and said unto him, (Taken)Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body(carcasse) is, thither will the eagles(vultures) be gathered together.


    Luke says those who in Noah and Lot's day were destroyed; will also be the same in Jesus' Revelation day; they will be taken to destruction; where their bodies will be feasted on by the buzzards.
    Luke quotes the OT here...same as John does in Revelation; as to the analogy of the wicked taken to destruction and fed upon by the vultures.

    Isaiah 16:4 They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

    Isaiah 34:20 I will even give them into the hand of their enemies, and into the hand of them that seek their life: and their dead bodies shall be for meat unto the fowls of the heaven, and to the beasts of the earth.

    Revelation the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men
    thanks for the input Dave T

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    In Noahs day it was better to be left behind
    I'd rather be taken to safety in the Ark then left outside of it because I can't swim and I hate breathing water but each to his own. Same for fire, I'd rather have been taken to safety by the angels rather than be left back in the city to burn to death. These scenarios are given as symbolic of what happens on the day Christ returns. Either he takes you or he leaves you. The Greek words literally mean being accepted or rejected yet so many people want to the the one left/rejected not realizing what that actually means.

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    In Noahs day it was better to be left behind
    I'd rather be taken to safety in the Ark then left outside of it because I can't swim and I hate breathing water but each to his own. Same for fire, I'd rather have been taken to safety by the angels rather than be left back in the city to burn to death. These scenarios are given as symbolic of what happens on the day Christ returns. Either he takes you or he leaves you. The Greek words literally mean being accepted or rejected yet so many people want to the the one left/rejected not realizing what that actually means.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    My point isn't that all people are kept or not kept.

    My point is, the usage of the term 'kept from' does not mean a removal from the planet for protection.

    Jesus didn't spoke the opposite meaning of 'kept from' in John 17:15.

    When the flood came, Noah and family and animals were kept from the wrath, while remaining on the planet, and God protecting them through the storm.

    When the fire and brimstone came, Lot and family were kept from the wrath, while remaining on the planet, and God protecting them through the storm.

    When the wrath and plagues of Egypt came, the Hebrew children were kept from the wrath, while remaining on the planet, and God protecting them through the storm.

    When Shadrach, Mishach, and Abednigo were cast into the fiery furnace, they were kept from the wrath, while remaining on the planet, and God protecting them through the storm.

    Bible precidence after precidence, shows God protecting his faithful through the storms, while them remain on the planet during the storm.

    Revelation 3:10 shouldn't be interpretted and expected any differently.
    Especially since Paul told us in Thessalonians that there would be believers who are alive and remain until the 2nd Advent of the Lord; and also since Revelation shows believers alive and on the Earth throughout almost every chapter.

    God knows how to protect His, if it is in His will.
    Yes sometimes God allows His people to die or be maryted; so noone can expect to be kept if the Lord decides it is their time.
    You introduced John 17:15 to support an argument that Revelation 3:10 means that God will keep His people IN the Great Tribulation. My answer was that those of the Lord's who pass through the Great Tribulation are not kept and showed the scriptures. Now you change your doctrine and say that they are NOT kept. Which is it?

    As to your posting above, 1st Thessalonians quite clearly shows a removal of God's people from the earth. Or do you deny this too? If not, what then is the purpose of this "catching away"? The context of 1st Thessalonians 4:13 to 5:10 is plain for all to see. You are schooled in scripture and the meaning of words. You also know that the Chapter divisions do not appear in the original. Thus, it reads in one thought;

    13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
    8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."


    The theme is;
    • what happens to the dead Christians at the time of Rapture?
    • what happens at the "Presence" of the Lord
    • the "times and seasons" of "that day" and the "presence of the Lord"
    • the hope of salvation from "that day"
    • the avoidance of God's wrath through this salvation
    • being ALIVE and with the Lord at His "presence" in the clouds

    It is clear, even to a high-school student that it is a "time and season" of "destruction" and "God's wrath", and that the Thessalonian Christians were to wear a "helmet of hope" of salvation from this time. A helmet is to guard the head - the seat of a man's thoughts. Hope is a thought that counters despair!

    Now, shall I address your argument that the history of the Bible that God preserves ON EARTH and not in the clouds? The Last Days of our age are pictured by Noah and Lot. They faced God's wrath on men. But, unlike you, I divide these two cases because Lot does not picture the "saints on high". This picture is fulfilled by Abraham, who, at the same time that Lot was in the "Valley", ca 1,500 ft BELOW sea level, was at Hebron, which means "fellowship" or "association", interceding for Lot. So the true picture of Lot's escape must include Abraham on High, and Lot in the lowest place on earth. The picture shows Lot barely escaping, and this by the forecful hand of angels, to a place of drunkenness, incest and the disgrace of bringing forth two great enemies of God's People.

    So the picture is what I have said all along.
    1. There are two righteous men, Abraham and Lot. One is ON HIGH at Hebron in fellowship and association with God, and one barely escapes but escapes to disgrace. As the Great Tribulation starts, what do we have?
    2. The Overcomers (or Firstfruits of the harvest) ON HIGH (Rev.14) having escaped by Rapture to the clouds (1st Thessalonians 4 - 5) as promised in Revelation 3:10 and Luke 21:36.
    3. And we have "the remainder" of the heavenly woman's seed "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ, fleeing to a wilderness (Rev.12), defeated and disgraced by the Beast (Rev.13:8) who must wash their dirty garments, who go through the Great Tribulation (Rev.7), and all this on earth as opposed to the clouds

    So your evoking the case of Lot rather favors my theory.

    In Noah's case the wrath and judgement of God was water "UPON" the face of the earth. And Noah's escape was an Ark that went "UPON" the waters (Gen.7:18). Noah is not removed from earth but he was "Exceedingly ABOVE the highest mountain" (17:19). Death "below" and some "alive above".

    The case of Egypt in the plagues are not the wrath of God. They also do not show UNIVERSAL judgment as the are where the Hebrews were diid not suffer the plague. The plagues were temporal and local. But the angel of death was UNIVERSAL to the whole of Egypt. There the Hebrews are as guilty as the Egyptians for they worships the Egyptian gods (Josh.24:14). In this you have produced an argument that supports my thesis. The guilty Christians must stay in the Land but are preserved fed in a wilderness. In this, you prove what I say that in Revelation 12 the NON-Overcomer stays on earth while the Man-Child, "... they that overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death" (v.11), is Raptured to the Throne.

    I realize that we do not have the time nor the right to derail the thread, but all indications in Revelation 12 show the Man-Child to be the overcomers. Only TWO get to rule the nations with a rod of iron (Rev.2:27 or Rev.19:15) - Christ or the Overcomers. We must decide. The setting is the end of the age not the beginning when Christ was raptured. The setting is the time when Satan has but a short time. The setting is when Satan and the fallen angles are cast out of heaven. The Man-Child is plural. The Man-Child is not Christ as it (plural) has the "blood of the Lamb". Christ does not need His blood. His blood is for others.

    The case of David's three friends is not a case of God's wrath. It is men's wrath. For this you have John 17:15. Added to this, they had no promise of preservation. Added to this they were men under Law which had certain promises. I am the first to say that God preserves. I have lived a long full life and seen God's preservation in my own life multiple times. The scriptures are full of God's preservation. What we discuss here is not whether God preserves, but what we discuss is; As God's holy and righteous wrath descends from heaven to earth, and WHOLE earth is encompassed in unlivable conditions, where the Beast prevails over Christian and even the Two Witnesses, and the Jewish Remnant must be "sealed" so that the mechanisms of the Great Tribulation do not hurt them (Rev.9:4), has God promised an escape for the diligent Christian. If so, there is only one escape proposed - One must be "accounted worthy", and one must "stand before the Son of man"( Luke 21:36).
    • Escape is CONDITIONAL
    • "stand" means you are alive
    • "stand" denotes a place - before the Son of man
    • And where is the Son of man at this time - "PRESENT" in the clouds

    I think you have to admit, as this thread unfolds, the many and varied proofs and Types give a weight of evidence to a Rature
    to escape the great Tribulation
    1. one first to accommodate the "worthy" and the "Firstfruits"
    2. one to accommodate those who needed to wash their garments - the general harvest
    3. one to accommodate the Gleanings - those who remain to benefit men but are cherished by the Lord like the Two Witnesses

    I think that if you are honest, you will admit that I have a compelling argument, and that I do not have to wrest any scriptures but can take them at face value. Even the Types agree with men. Take the Transfiguration for instance. The Lord Takes ONLY three of twelve ON HIGH. They ALONE are privy to Christ's glory and His Kingdom in His PRESENCE ("Parousia"). They alone are in the company of two other renowned servants of the Lord - Elijah and Moses. Elijah speaks for Overcoming saints who are alive when they are called on high. Moses speaks for the dead faithful whose body is fought for and who "stands" before the Son of man. And while all this grandeur is ON HIGH, the other nine are LEFT BELOW where they are overcome by a single demon. They are accused by the Lord of having no faith. They are LEFT below while certain disciples are on high. They must wait for the Lord to ARRIVE ("Erchomai") from on high to deal with the demon. They are rebuked by the Lord and must admit DEFEAT. Is this not also a Type of what we discuss, and hat I propose?

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