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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #61
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    This is a difficult undertaking to organize into a readable html table view.
    Let's start with the writings to the Thessalonians about Christ's return; and see if this is edifyable to us or not.


    Greek word, and most common translated English Word.

    3952 Parousia (Coming)
    2015 Epiphanea (Appearing)
    601/602 Apokalypsis (Revelation)
    2064 Erchromai (Coming)
    726 Harpazo (Caught up)


    Chapter Greek Word Participants
    1 Thess 2 Parousia v19 believers v19
    1 Thess 3 Parousia v13 believers v13
    1 Thess 4 Parousia v15, Harpazo v17, Epiphanea, Apokalypsis believers v15-18
    1 Thess 5 Parousia v23, Epiphanea, Apokalypsis believers v 1-2, 4-6, 8-28, wicked 2-5,7,9
    2 Thess 1 Apoklypsis, v7, Erchomai v10 believers v3-7, 10, wicked, v8-10
    2 Thess 2 Parousia v1, v8, Epiphanea v8, Apokalypsis, v3, v6, v8 believers v1, wicked, v8

    Above mentioned focal passages:

    "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

    "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. "

    "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. "

    "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together; And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

    "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. "

    "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"
    I must commend you on masterful display of IT capability. I wish I could do this because we all know that 70% - 80% of our learning is via the eyes.

    But returning to "Epiphaneia", I find it in the following verses:
    2 Thessalonians 2:8; "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming"
    1 Timothy 6:14; "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
    2 Timothy 1:10; "But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel"
    2 Timothy 4:1; "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom"
    2 Timothy 4:8; "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."
    Titus 2:13; "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

    Could you explain;
    1. why you have it in 1st Thessalonians 4:17
    2. why you have it in 1st Thessalonians 5:23
    3. which of the verses, that Strong's gives it in, has to do with the Rapture? This was original reason for "omitting" it from my explanation to Greeny, but which you say is pertinent to the rapture.

  2. #62

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    So are you agreeing with me because I am saying that the church will always suffer persecution and will not escape it?
    No, I'm saying that the Church which is His body experiences "persecutions" and "sufferings" and "tribulations" all throughout its entire existence on the earth (since the first century clear up until our Rapture/The Departure/our "gathering-together [episynagoges G1997] UNTO HIM" [IN THE AIR]).

    1Thess1:10 states, "... the One delivering us [the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY] out-from the wrath coming." [that is, the wrath coming to unfold upon the earth over some time, from the moment Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6, 2Th2:7b-8a (SIMILAR to the wording of Lam2:3-4!, note)]


    So here is a post I just made elsewhere, perhaps it will help you see my viewpoint:

    [quoting that post... much more could be said ]
    I continually am making two particular points (in my posts), especially:

    --when the phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in the SAME CONTEXTS, they refer to the same time period; and

    --the passage in 2Th2:7b-8a sounds very closely similar to a passage in Lamentations 2:1-7, esp. vv. 3-4 (a section labeled [with a heading, by some] as "God's Anger Over Jerusalem"--just saying it is SIMILARLY-WORDED, not that each of these two passages have to be referring to the same precise moments in time/history, mind you); here are those passages to compare side by side:

    Lamentations 2:3-4 -



    ג

    3 He hath cut off in his fierce anger all the horn of Israel: he hath drawn back [withdrawn] his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about. [just like saying a protection is withdrawn, let 'er loose! let 'er rip!]


    ד

    4 He hath bent his bow like an enemy: he stood with his right hand as an adversary, and slew all that were pleasant to the eye in the tabernacle of the daughter of Zion: he poured out his fury like fire.



    [notice the similarity of the verse 3 bolded, with that of...]

    2Th2:7b-8a -

    "...there is only the one at present restraining it, until he might be gone out of the midst [UNTIL out of the midst he be come / come to be]. AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..."

    [this is at the START of the 7-yrs, not in the MIDDLE as many suppose; this is SEAL #1 (rider of the white horse with a bow [often meaning 'DECEPTION']), aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"]" ; "the prince THAT SHALL COME," the "whose COMING" aka "man of sin be revealed"; the Dan9:27[26] one who does the "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yr]" thing, starting at the BEGINNING of the 7-yrs, when Jesus Himself will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Rev5:6; 2Th2:7b-8a (LIKE Lam2:3-4)]


    Point 2 (from above), the phrases "the Day of the Lord, " and "IN THAT DAY" are BOTH used in the 2Th1-thru-2 passage, and when we review those words (set in a contrast to one another, per CONTEXT), we can see clearly that it is most certainly a TIME PERIOD (the OT told us that clearly, when spelling it out, but HERE TOO!) where it shows the TWO DISTINCT [and OPPOSITE] "beliefs" people will come to hold WITHIN that future time period, EITHER [coming to believe] 2Th1:10b ("the testimony of us to you" was indeed TRUE) OR [they will INSTEAD believe] 2Th2:10-12 ("the FALSE/the pseudei" the "LIE," the "strong delusion"), and Jesus Himself knows from the beginning who is who.

    Recall, I've stated that some people will indeed come to faith within the tribulation period (following our Rapture), whereas others will be hardened in their unbelief... This, I believe, is the gist of that CONTRAST spoken of here.

    [end of that post]


    I would also point out that 1Th1:10 I mentioned at top, is not defining HERE just what all "the wrath coming" will entail (altogether), it just says "the wrath coming" (that is, the wrath that will unfold upon the earth over some time; I can provide a number of scriptures that show that NOT ONLY the VIALS [in which "the wrath of God was COMPLETED" not when it STARTED!] being the [only] point of "wrath coming" but also wrath well before the Vials point in the chronology. But this post is long enough for now )

  3. #63
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I'd rather be taken to safety in the Ark then left outside of it because I can't swim and I hate breathing water but each to his own. Same for fire, I'd rather have been taken to safety by the angels rather than be left back in the city to burn to death. These scenarios are given as symbolic of what happens on the day Christ returns. Either he takes you or he leaves you. The Greek words literally mean being accepted or rejected yet so many people want to the the one left/rejected not realizing what that actually means.



    I'd rather be taken to safety in the Ark then left outside of it because I can't swim and I hate breathing water but each to his own. Same for fire, I'd rather have been taken to safety by the angels rather than be left back in the city to burn to death. These scenarios are given as symbolic of what happens on the day Christ returns. Either he takes you or he leaves you. The Greek words literally mean being accepted or rejected yet so many people want to the the one left/rejected not realizing what that actually means.
    But the ones taken in Naohs day were taken in judgment. Jesus was using the same words when He said the one taken and the other one left

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    But the ones taken in Naohs day were taken in judgment. Jesus was using the same words when He said the one taken and the other one left
    I think you are correct.

  5. #65

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    But the ones taken in Naohs day were taken in judgment. Jesus was using the same words when He said the one taken and the other one left
    I agree with this sentence.


    [where you and I likely disagree, about this, is, that I believe the CONTEXT here is His Second Coming to the earth (and NOT our Rapture--I do not believe the Olivet Discourse speaks anything to the SUBJECT of our Rapture; his disciples were asking Him about "the end [singular] of the age [singular]," which He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50, when the angels will "REAP" (WHEAT harvest, etc), so at the time He spoke His Olivet Discourse, He had NOT YET spoken anything regarding our Rapture... that is not its CONTEXT, but is instead covering the circumstances surrounding His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" there]

  6. #66
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I must commend you on masterful display of IT capability. I wish I could do this because we all know that 70% - 80% of our learning is via the eyes.

    But returning to "Epiphaneia", I find it in the following verses:
    2 Thessalonians 2:8; "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming"
    1 Timothy 6:14; "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
    2 Timothy 1:10; "But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel"
    2 Timothy 4:1; "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom"
    2 Timothy 4:8; "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."
    Titus 2:13; "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

    Could you explain;
    1. why you have it in 1st Thessalonians 4:17
    2. why you have it in 1st Thessalonians 5:23
    3. which of the verses, that Strong's gives it in, has to do with the Rapture? This was original reason for "omitting" it from my explanation to Greeny, but which you say is pertinent to the rapture.
    Ephanea is only mentioned in the Thessalonian verses, in 2 2:8 I believe.
    4:17 's usage is Parousia (continuation of v15) and Harpazo
    5:23's usage is Parousia.

    Thessalonians is good though, because all of the writings mention all of the words, in various verses.

    Another good example though if Epiphanea(using the tense variant Phanaroo-5319), you didn't list above, and I didn't list because it was outside of the Thessalonians I was limiting to, is I John; which tells us the Epiphanea occurs with the Parousia.

    I John 2:28 "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear[Paneroo-5319], we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming[Parousia-3952]. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear[Paneroo-5319], we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."


    Another thing of note; going back to the idea of whether the rapture and the revelation of Jesus are the same event; or separate by 7 years; are these passages.
    Here we find that Christians are told to wait for (not the rapture); but rather, to wait for the Revelation. Often they are missed in English by the reader, because they translation 602-Apokalypsis as a different English word than Revelation...but we both know that the Lord's Revelation is His Apocalypsis.

    I Corinthians 1:7 "So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming[Apocalypsis-0601] of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

    II Thess 1:7 "And to you (verse 3 sets the 'you' as the members of the church suffering tribulation) who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed[Apocalypsis-0601] from heaven with his mighty angels"

    I Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing[Apocalypsis-0601] of Jesus Christ"

    I Peter 4:13 "But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that when his glory shall be revealed[Apocalypsis-0601], ye may be glad also with exceeding joy."

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I think you are correct.
    Thanks FHG.....

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I agree with this sentence.


    [where you and I likely disagree, about this, is, that I believe the CONTEXT here is His Second Coming to the earth (and NOT our Rapture--I do not believe the Olivet Discourse speaks anything to the SUBJECT of our Rapture; his disciples were asking Him about "the end [singular] of the age [singular]," which He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50, when the angels will "REAP" (WHEAT harvest, etc), so at the time He spoke His Olivet Discourse, He had NOT YET spoken anything regarding our Rapture... that is not its CONTEXT, but is instead covering the circumstances surrounding His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" there]
    Actually I don’t think that it has anything to do with the rapture but His coming in judgement in 70AD

  9. #69
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    No, I'm saying that the Church which is His body experiences "persecutions" and "sufferings" and "tribulations" all throughout its entire existence on the earth (since the first century clear up until our Rapture/The Departure/our "gathering-together [episynagoges G1997] UNTO HIM" [IN THE AIR]).

    1Thess1:10 states, "... the One delivering us [the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY] out-from the wrath coming." [that is, the wrath coming to unfold upon the earth over some time, from the moment Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6, 2Th2:7b-8a (SIMILAR to the wording of Lam2:3-4!, note)]
    I agree the church does always suffer persecution while on the earth but this is different than the wrath. The persecution is from satan but the wrath is from God and the church is protected as we see below

    Rev 7:1-3
    After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

    So we are here on the earth but protected from Gods wrath

    --when the phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in the SAME CONTEXTS, they refer to the same time period;
    Agreed

    "...there is only the one at present restraining it, until he might be gone out of the midst [UNTIL out of the midst he be come / come to be]. AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..."

    [this is at the START of the 7-yrs, not in the MIDDLE as many suppose; this is SEAL #1 (rider of the white horse with a bow [often meaning 'DECEPTION']), aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"]" ; "the prince THAT SHALL COME," the "whose COMING" aka "man of sin be revealed"; the Dan9:27[26] one who does the "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yr]" thing, starting at the BEGINNING of the 7-yrs, when Jesus Himself will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Rev5:6; 2Th2:7b-8a (LIKE Lam2:3-4)]
    I see the six seals as the same time as Matthew chapter 24 but Daniels 70th week as back in Antiochus Epiphanies time. I also see the man of lawlessness as Nero

    No, I'm saying that the Church which is His body experiences "persecutions" and "sufferings" and "tribulations" all throughout its entire existence on the earth (since the first century clear up until our Rapture/The Departure/our "gathering-together [episynagoges G1997] UNTO HIM" [IN THE AIR]).

    1Thess1:10 states, "... the One delivering us [the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY] out-from the wrath coming." [that is, the wrath coming to unfold upon the earth over some time, from the moment Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6, 2Th2:7b-8a (SIMILAR to the wording of Lam2:3-4!, note)]
    I agree the church does always suffer persecution while on the earth but this is different than the wrath. The persecution is from satan but the wrath is from God and the church is protected as we see below

    Rev 7:1-3
    After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

    So we are here on the earth but protected from Gods wrath

    --when the phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in the SAME CONTEXTS, they refer to the same time period;
    Agreed

    "...there is only the one at present restraining it, until he might be gone out of the midst [UNTIL out of the midst he be come / come to be]. AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..."

    [this is at the START of the 7-yrs, not in the MIDDLE as many suppose; this is SEAL #1 (rider of the white horse with a bow [often meaning 'DECEPTION']), aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"]" ; "the prince THAT SHALL COME," the "whose COMING" aka "man of sin be revealed"; the Dan9:27[26] one who does the "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yr]" thing, starting at the BEGINNING of the 7-yrs, when Jesus Himself will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Rev5:6; 2Th2:7b-8a (LIKE Lam2:3-4)]
    I see the six seals as the same time as Matthew chapter 24 but Daniels 70th week as back in Antiochus Epiphanies time. I also see the man of lawlessness as Nero

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Ephanea is only mentioned in the Thessalonian verses, in 2 2:8 I believe.
    4:17 's usage is Parousia (continuation of v15) and Harpazo
    5:23's usage is Parousia.

    Thessalonians is good though, because all of the writings mention all of the words, in various verses.

    Another good example though if Epiphanea(using the tense variant Phanaroo-5319), you didn't list above, and I didn't list because it was outside of the Thessalonians I was limiting to, is I John; which tells us the Epiphanea occurs with the Parousia.

    I John 2:28 "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear[Paneroo-5319], we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming[Parousia-3952]. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear[Paneroo-5319], we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."


    Another thing of note; going back to the idea of whether the rapture and the revelation of Jesus are the same event; or separate by 7 years; are these passages.
    Here we find that Christians are told to wait for (not the rapture); but rather, to wait for the Revelation. Often they are missed in English by the reader, because they translation 602-Apokalypsis as a different English word than Revelation...but we both know that the Lord's Revelation is His Apocalypsis.

    I Corinthians 1:7 "So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming[Apocalypsis-0601] of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

    II Thess 1:7 "And to you (verse 3 sets the 'you' as the members of the church suffering tribulation) who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed[Apocalypsis-0601] from heaven with his mighty angels"

    I Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing[Apocalypsis-0601] of Jesus Christ"

    I Peter 4:13 "But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that when his glory shall be revealed[Apocalypsis-0601], ye may be glad also with exceeding joy."
    I realize that the crowd you call "Dispensationalist" have a variety of beliefs. Only one of them is that there is a 7 year period between Christ leaving Heaven and touching down of earth. This is due to the erroneous understanding that the Great Tribulation is 7 years long and not 3½. The Great Tribulation starts with the Abomination of Desolation (Matt.24:21). The Abomination of Desolation is when the daily oblation ceases. And that, according to Daniel 9:27 is halfway into the last Seven. My theory is that if the firstfruits are raptured to avoid the Great Tribulation, they only need to be raptured slightly longer than 3½ years before Christ touches down on Olivet. But there is a problem with this.

    In 2nd Thessalonians 2:3-6 there is an obscure verse that needs dealing with, and is actually the decisive verse if one is to establish the time that our Lord is in the air. It reads;

    3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."


    The problem in the Local Church at Thessaloniki was that because of the virulent persecution of Christians (Paul could only survive three weeks before having to flee), some teachers started teaching that the Great Tribulation ("that day") had started, and they, the Church at Thessaloniki, had missed the Rapture. So Paul sets forth a number of factors that must occur before the "Man of sin" is revealed. They are;
    verse 3. Apostasy in the Church. The Greek for "falling away" means "defection or falling from an elevated place". The Jews hated and had rejected Christ, and the Nations were indifferent. They were on a LOW place. Only the Church was on a "high place" that be fallen from. So one of the chief signs is Apostasy. But this will not help us much because whatever one's take of the Seven Churches of Revelation 2 and 3 is, one thing is clear. 5 of the 7 Churches are rebuked. 1 is admonished. And 1 is commended. Apostasy was a fact when John wrote in 95 AD.
    verse 4. A Temple must be in place and the Beast must have caused Israel to allow him to sit in the Holy of Holies. But this does not help too much because the Beast is "revealed" at least 7 years before Christ's return to Olivet. He must be prominent to effect the "strengthening of the Covenant" spoken of in Daniel 9:27.
    verse 5. Paul reminds the the Church at Thessaloniki that they have already been taught this in the short 3 weeks that Paul was there in Acts 17. That is quite important for the contextual setting in 2nd Thessalonians. The Church there were not ignorant - but like on this Forum, they need repetitive teaching.
    verse 6. Paul had taught the Thessalonians that someone or something was in place on earth that hindered the Man of sin being manifested. We are not told who or what it is. It is left for us to DEDUCE. How shall we do that?

    There are five things that could hinder the appearance or "revelation" of the Beast, but only one turns out to be viable:
    1. Since he comes out of the Abyss, being once dead, the TIME for his resurrection was wrong. He should only be resurrected along with the "rest of the dead" AFTER the Millennium. But it said of him in Daniel 7:25 that he is allowed to "change times".
    2. Since Satan, who gives him all his power, succumbs to Michael, Michael could, strictly speaking, be a hinderer. But Michael operates in heaven in Revelation 12, not on earth.
    3. Jesus is capable of hindering the Beast, but He does not. Our Lord Jesus is removed to heaven 2,000 years before the Beast is revealed and did not hinder him. Rather, our Lord Jesus, Who has the keys to Hades, is responsible for allowing the beast to rise out of his time.
    4. The Holy Spirit could hinder him. But the Holy Spirit is not removed since He is active in resurrecting the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11:11.
    5. This leaves only one "hinderer" that can be, and is removed. It is the OVERCOMERS. They are hinderers to corruption by being salt, and hinderers of darkness by being light. They OVERCAME the Dragon morally in Revelation 12:10-11. And they DISPLACED Satan physically when they were "caught away" to the Throne in heaven. It was not the ascent of Jesus that displaced Satan from heaven. Satan is allowed to be the "prince of the power of the air" long after our Lord Jesus was raptured. The Dragon is displaced to earth when the Man-Child is Raptured, leaving him the short time of 1260 days.

    Thus, it would seem, for different reasons than the Dispensationalists give, that the Rapture of the Firstfruits IS 7 or more years before Christ touches down on Olivet. This sounds a lot when you can read this in the bible in 7 minutes, but consider this. Starting with Peter and the 10 in the room of resurrection day (Jn.20:22), millions of Christians have been born again. And everyone must appear before our Lord Jesus to give an account of him/herself before the BEMA (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10). How long would you take to give an account of yourself? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? Whatever, there are 525,600 minutes in a year, and if each saint uses 5 minutes that would mean that only 105,120 Christians could give their account PER YEAR. So after 7 years only about ¾ of ONE Million Christians will have been judged. Let's be generous and set the time at 1 minute. Now the figure is 3.68 million in 7 years. But that is still nothing compared to how many Christians who ever lived since John 20:22. Lets divide that by 10, given each Christian only 6 seconds to give an account of their whole Christian career and you have still only 37 million Christians judged in seven years. If only 3% of today's population are born again Christians, the living Christians of today number 210 million.

    So all of a sudden, 7 years in the air, on the Bema (the traveling throne of Jesus), seems like nearly not enough time for our Lord to judge every Christian who every lived. We might have a small hint in Genesis 7:1-10. Noah was called by God to enter the Ark 7 days before the rain started. Could it be that even 7 years that the Dispensationalists tout is TOO LITTLE - but for other reasons?

    Just following an argument to its logical end.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    But the ones taken in Naohs day were taken in judgment.
    I know. The taken were judged to life. The left were judged to death. The one taken is always the survivor and the one left is always the one that dies. So that goes against your interpretation and so does the meanings of taken and left in the Greek. Nothing supports your viewpoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    But the ones taken in Naohs day were taken in judgment.
    I know. The taken were judged to life. The left were judged to death. The one taken is always the survivor and the one left is always the one that dies. So that goes against your interpretation and so does the meanings of taken and left in the Greek. Nothing supports your viewpoint.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I know. The taken were judged to life. The left were judged to death. The one taken is always the survivor and the one left is always the one that dies. So that goes against your interpretation and so does the meanings of taken and left in the Greek. Nothing supports your viewpoint.



    I know. The taken were judged to life. The left were judged to death. The one taken is always the survivor and the one left is always the one that dies. So that goes against your interpretation and so does the meanings of taken and left in the Greek. Nothing supports your viewpoint.
    Matthew 24:37-41
    37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

    In verse 39 Jesus states that the flood came and took them away. The ones caught in the flood were taken in judgment as they drowned in the flood

    Jesus then goes onto say " That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

    Thus the ones taken are taken (killed) in judgment. The ones left behind were Noah and his family they were saved in the ark. Like the saints are saved in the new ark which is Jesus

    Jesus uses the same word "taken" in bother verses

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Jesus uses the same word "taken" in bother verses
    Actually he used two different words. The one taken is not the same as the flood "taking" people. That's the first and most common error people make in this.

    By the time the flood comes (or fire comes in the story of Lot), the one taken is already gone, to a safe place. The ones the flood/fire comes for are the ones left/rejected.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Actually he used two different words. The one taken is not the same as the flood "taking" people. That's the first and most common error people make in this.

    By the time the flood comes (or fire comes in the story of Lot), the one taken is already gone, to a safe place. The ones the flood/fire comes for are the ones left/rejected.
    The verses below support my position especially verse 37

    Luke 17:26-37
    26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

    28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

    30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]

    37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

    He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    The verses below support my position especially verse 37
    37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

    He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”
    Yes that's where the one taken is taken to. They come with Christ to that Armageddon battle.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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