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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #91
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    I'd like to emphasize the fact that the whole idea of the Church being snatched up to heaven has to do with our physical conformity to God. Since God is in heaven, and we are on a sinful earth, we must all be translated into heaven, where God rules, and receive new physical bodies that are sinless and immortal.

    The major teaching originating this event at the 2nd Coming comes from Dan 7 where the Son of Man comes, after heavenly deliberations, descends from the clouds of heaven. The clouds of the sky represent heaven, where God rules. And since the Son of Man, Jesus, has ascended into heaven, to obtain his own glorified standing, we must be taken up to him to receive our own glorified bodies.

    And so, NT teaching derives from Dan 7 and repeats this notion of our physical transformation in heaven at the 2nd Coming of the Son of Man. As in Dan 7, the 2nd Coming of Christ takes place *after* the tribulations of the present age, which prevent Israel from obtaining her inheritance.

    Since Gentiles are now co-heirs of the Kingdom of heaven we will all obtain our inheritance at the same time that the faithful of Israel do, when Christ returns after the tribulations of the present age. That's why the book of Revelation was written, to encourage the Church to endure in times of tribulation, until we can be rescued at the return of Christ.

  2. #92
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    John 14:1-3
    14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
    Nice one.............

  3. #93
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree. And the worst thing about the Pretrib Rapture teaching is that it completely undoes the value of the book of Revelation. That book is all about encouraging Christians to persevere in times of Tribulation. But if we're taught that we can escape the Tribulation, we will derive no benefit from this book at all. It will be all about escapism, and not endurance. Thanks for your bold statement of belief!
    Sounds interesting until one reads Revelation and finds out the church is never mentioned after Chapter 3 until the final salutation of the book. If the church was the focus it seems strange it isn’t even mentioned.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

  4. #94
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yes. He sure isn't going to take the dead from one place to another. Naturally he is taking the living with him where he is going. Those that die go to Armageddon themselves and they are already there when Christ arrives with his raptured/taken saints.
    Huh how do you come to that conclusion biblically?

  5. #95
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    Sounds interesting until one reads Revelation and finds out the church is never mentioned after Chapter 3 until the final salutation of the book. If the church was the focus it seems strange it isn’t even mentioned.
    Actually the church is mentioned a few times between chapter 4 & 21.

    Revelation is all about Jesus as in who He is and what He did. He is God and He ushered in the New Covenant

    But I do completely agree with your view on the timing of the rapture

  6. #96
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    One way to look at what CBH posted is to view John 14:1-3 in light of Isaiah 26. The entire chapter is relevant, but specifically....

    Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead will live;
    Their corpses will rise.
    You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
    For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
    And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
    20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms
    And close your doors behind you;
    Hide for a little while
    Until indignation runs its course.

    21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
    To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
    And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
    And will no longer cover her slain.
    The specific time the OT saints will rise is still a matter of debate. Some say they will rise to participate in the Millennial age, but others claim they will rise after the MK is over. The reason I mentioned this is that if they rise at the end of the MK kingdom, then Isaiah 26:19-21 cannot be said to corroborate with John 14:1-3 which denote the church.

  7. #97
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    Sounds interesting until one reads Revelation and finds out the church is never mentioned after Chapter 3 until the final salutation of the book. If the church was the focus it seems strange it isn’t even mentioned.
    Common red herring.
    The word ‘church’ isn’t used in Chapters 4:1-22:15.

    1) believers however, are found both in Heaven and on Earth in those passages.
    2) if the church(believers not the ‘word usage’) isn’t present at the 2nd Advent, Resurrection, or NHNE, where are we? Those are kinda important Revelation 19,20,21,22 events not to miss.

  8. #98
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The specific time the OT saints will rise is still a matter of debate.
    The only reason when the OT saints will rise is still a matter of debate, is because some allow their end-time-view to create confusion and disarray regarding the resurrection.

    If only folks would re-examine their end-time-view against what scripture says, there then becomes no matter of debate.

    Scripture tells us over and over and over, there is one resurrection of all mankind, at the same time; addressing both the just and the unjust.

    Why don't we accept those scriptures? We have grown comfortable in our present end-time-view, and we don't want to question it.

    What do the scriptures say?

    Leaving all commentary aside below, do they say multiple resurrections at multiple times by multiple groups; or
    1 resurrection for all men, just and unjust at the same time?

    • "dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. " Isaiah 26:19
    • "Therefore in the resurrection" Matt 22:28
    • "For in the resurrection" Matt 22:30
    • "the resurrection of the dead" Matt 22:31
    • "In the resurrection" Mark 12:23
    • "the resurrection of the dead" Luke 14:14
    • "In the resurrection" Luke 20:33
    • "the resurrection from the dead" Luke 20:35
    • "of the resurrection" Luke 20:36
    • "they that have done good,the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. " John 5:29
    • "the resurrection at the last day" John 11:24
    • "the resurrection John 11:25
    • "the resurrection from the dead" Acts 4:2
    • "the resurrection John 11:25
    • "the resurrection" Acts 17:18
    • "the resurrection of the dead" Acts 17:32
    • "the resurrection of the dead" Acts 24:21
    • "the resurrection of the dead" Romans 1:4
    • "the resurrection of the dead" ICor 15:13
    • "the resurrection of the dead" ICor 15:21
    • "the resurrection of the dead" ICor 15:42
    • "the resurrection of the dead" Phi 3:10
    • "the resurrection of the dead" Phi 3:11
    • "the resurrection of the dead" 2Tim 2:18
    • "the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets" Rev 11:18
    • "I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man


    What does the consistent bible student take from this, without being coherced by conflicting endtime views that argue against with the above?

  9. #99

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    I may have said this (in this thread or perhaps another) but people, a lot of times, view Daniel 12:1-4 [along with its parallels of Isa26:16-21; Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Hosea 5:15-6:3; Romans 11:15(25); etc] as being a "resurrection [from the DEAD]," but I believe it is instead referring to Israel coming up out of "the graveyard of nations, where scattered" … and that "the WISE [OF them]" go on to "turn many to righteousness" DURING the trib-years (the context of Dan 12);

    ...whereas (by contrast) Daniel 12:13 IS referring to a "physical/bodily resurrection [from the DEAD]" when Daniel was told he would be resurrected ['stand in thy lot' means to be resurrected to stand again on the earth] "AT THE END of the days [at the END of the "days" referred to in that CONTEXT, vv.6-7,1, meaning at the END OF THE TRIB--now, note, this is NOT "the rapture," though there IS a rapture, this is NOT its CONTEXT, this [Daniel's / OT saints' RESURRECTION] is "AT THE END of the days" which is at the END of the TRIB; Martha well-knew of this "resurrection," it was NO MYSTERY).

    1Cor15:23 says "[re: resurrection] but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" (IF there were remaining only ONE SINGULAR "resurrection," then these words would be superfluous... and we know that is not the case). So... it is a matter of digging out the "chronology" of just WHAT happens WHEN (and who it involves, at what times... etc), but I won't go into all that in this post... (I did make another post awhile back showing in part why I believe, biblically, the 144,000 are "firstfruit" [Rev14:4] of the WHEAT harvest--and that "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" isn't of THAT harvest)


    [hoping I don't have any typos in this post, LOL]

    I may have said this (in this thread or perhaps another) but people, a lot of times, view Daniel 12:1-4 [along with its parallels of Isa26:16-21; Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Hosea 5:15-6:3; Romans 11:15(25); etc] as being a "resurrection [from the DEAD]," but I believe it is instead referring to Israel coming up out of "the graveyard of nations, where scattered" … and that "the WISE [OF them]" go on to "turn many to righteousness" DURING the trib-years (the context of Dan 12);

    ...whereas (by contrast) Daniel 12:13 IS referring to a "physical/bodily resurrection [from the DEAD]" when Daniel was told he would be resurrected ['stand in thy lot' means to be resurrected to stand again on the earth] "AT THE END of the days [at the END of the "days" referred to in that CONTEXT, vv.6-7,1, meaning at the END OF THE TRIB--now, note, this is NOT "the rapture," though there IS a rapture, this is NOT its CONTEXT, this [Daniel's / OT saints' RESURRECTION] is "AT THE END of the days" which is at the END of the TRIB; Martha well-knew of this "resurrection," it was NO MYSTERY).

    1Cor15:23 says "[re: resurrection] but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" (IF there were remaining only ONE SINGULAR "resurrection," then these words would be superfluous... and we know that is not the case). So... it is a matter of digging out the "chronology" of just WHAT happens WHEN (and who it involves, at what times... etc), but I won't go into all that in this post... (I did make another post awhile back showing in part why I believe, biblically, the 144,000 are "firstfruit" [Rev14:4] of the WHEAT harvest--and that "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" isn't of THAT harvest)


    [hoping I don't have any typos in this post, LOL]

  10. #100

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    "ye that dwell in dust" Isa26:16-21 (in several other passages that are similar to this) refers to Israel in "the graveyard of nations, where scattered" (rather than a physical/bodily burial and resurrection)… see the parallel passages I placed in the previous post... and also note that Rom9:26/Hos1:10 (regarding Israel) is distinct from Rom9:25/Hos2:23b (regarding the Gentiles)… and note the context of Israel's "future" in Rom11:25-29[v.15; where v.15 LIKENS it to a resurrection]

    "ye that dwell in dust" Isa26:16-21 (in several other passages that are similar to this) refers to Israel in "the graveyard of nations, where scattered" (rather than a physical/bodily burial and resurrection)… see the parallel passages I placed in the previous post... and also note that Rom9:26/Hos1:10 (regarding Israel) is distinct from Rom9:25/Hos2:23b (regarding the Gentiles)… and note the context of Israel's "future" in Rom11:25-29[v.15; where v.15 LIKENS it to a resurrection]

  11. #101
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Actually the church is mentioned a few times between chapter 4 & 21.

    Revelation is all about Jesus as in who He is and what He did. He is God and He ushered in the New Covenant

    But I do completely agree with your view on the timing of the rapture
    I did a search on a Ekklesia which is the Greek for “church” in every instance in Revelation, and it never occurs between chapter 3 an chapter 22.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

  12. #102
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    It is straight out false teaching to say that the resurrection of the dead happens before the Great White Throne Judgement.
    There is a bringing back to life of those killed during the Great Tribulation, Revelation 20:4, similar to what happened to Lazarus, that is not into Eternal Life, as they may die again, as Lazarus did. But over them, the second death has no power. Revelation 20:6

    Church or ekklesia is not used in Revelation, but the holy people of God is. Revelation 13:7 Same thing and nowhere it is said that they go to live in heaven.

    It is straight out false teaching to say that the resurrection of the dead happens before the Great White Throne Judgement.
    There is a bringing back to life of those killed during the Great Tribulation, Revelation 20:4, similar to what happened to Lazarus, that is not into Eternal Life, as they may die again, as Lazarus did. But over them, the second death has no power. Revelation 20:6

    Church or ekklesia is not used in Revelation, but the holy people of God is. Revelation 13:7 Same thing and nowhere it is said that they go to live in heaven.

  13. #103
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    I did a search on a Ekklesia which is the Greek for “church” in every instance in Revelation, and it never occurs between chapter 3 an chapter 22.
    Just because a single word is not there doesn't mean the church isn't mentioned. The two witnesses are two candlesticks and two olive trees and candlesticks represent churches so the church and even Christian prophets are found in Rev 11. What isn't found is this idea the church disappears before the trib. The rapture only occurs after the second coming and the church doesn't disappear, it is brought together one believer at a time so all Christians are gathered in one place to meet Christ and all of them together return to the Earth.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  14. #104
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    It is straight out false teaching to say that the resurrection of the dead happens before the Great White Throne Judgement.
    That's wrong. The dead in Christ rise before the thousand years begins, and the last resurrection is the resurrection of the unsaved and even all of them have to resurrect before the GWTJ so they can be judged. So the false teaching is all yours brother.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #105
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Common red herring.
    The word ‘church’ isn’t used in Chapters 4:1-22:15.

    1) believers however, are found both in Heaven and on Earth in those passages.
    2) if the church(believers not the ‘word usage’) isn’t present at the 2nd Advent, Resurrection, or NHNE, where are we? Those are kinda important Revelation 19,20,21,22 events not to miss.
    Revelation does mention saints after chapter 3, but it is presumptuous to equate them with the “church” from Shavuot to The Tribulation period. There were saints resurrected shortly after Yeshua’s resurrection before the church began 49 days later. And while Matthew didn’t go into more detail, many EC writers said these saints were taken by Yeshua to the Father. That seems to be supported in Psalms 66:18 and Paul seems to think so in Ephesians 4:8
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

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