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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #106
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The specific time the OT saints will rise is still a matter of debate. Some say they will rise to participate in the Millennial age, but others claim they will rise after the MK is over. The reason I mentioned this is that if they rise at the end of the MK kingdom, then Isaiah 26:19-21 cannot be said to corroborate with John 14:1-3 which denote the church.
    How about at this time

    Matthew 27:51-53
    51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The specific time the OT saints will rise is still a matter of debate. Some say they will rise to participate in the Millennial age, but others claim they will rise after the MK is over. The reason I mentioned this is that if they rise at the end of the MK kingdom, then Isaiah 26:19-21 cannot be said to corroborate with John 14:1-3 which denote the church.
    How about at this time

    Matthew 27:51-53
    51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

  2. #107
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    I did a search on a Ekklesia which is the Greek for “church” in every instance in Revelation, and it never occurs between chapter 3 an chapter 22.
    I'm not meaning the literal word church but the actual church the saints or the faithful

  3. #108
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    I did a search on a Ekklesia which is the Greek for “church” in every instance in Revelation, and it never occurs between chapter 3 an chapter 22.
    So if you only locate where the church is in chapters 4-22 by where the word ‘church’ is used;
    And Revelation 4-22 show scenes both in Heaven and Earth; and your word still isn’t found...

    Just where is the church located during chapters 4-22?

    Where is the church?
    where is the steeple?
    Where are the doors?
    And all of the people?

    Jupiter?
    The Moon?

  4. #109
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    So if you only locate where the church is in chapters 4-22 by where the word ‘church’ is used;
    And Revelation 4-22 show scenes both in Heaven and Earth; and your word still isn’t found...

    Just where is the church located during chapters 4-22?

    Where is the church?
    where is the steeple?
    Where are the doors?
    And all of the people?

    Jupiter?
    The Moon?
    Not only that but where the word is found isn't part of the Apocalyptic vision John was shown anyways so going by the lack of the appearance of the word, the church isn't found anywhere not even in the eternity
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  5. #110
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Not only that but where the word is found isn't part of the Apocalyptic vision John was shown anyways so going by the lack of the appearance of the word, the church isn't found anywhere not even in the eternity
    92 % of the entire New Testament verses also don’t use the word ‘Ekklessia’ church.
    Several entire NT books don’t use the word.

    Why is the church absent from 92% of the NT?

  6. #111
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That's wrong. The dead in Christ rise before the thousand years begins, and the last resurrection is the resurrection of the unsaved and even all of them have to resurrect before the GWTJ so they can be judged. So the false teaching is all yours brother.
    You are wrong.
    Revelation 20:4 is perfectly clear; it is only the martyrs killed during the GT that are brought back to life.
    The resurrection of ALL the dead does not happen until the GWTJ. Your unpleasant accusations rebound onto yourself.

  7. #112
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    You are wrong.
    Revelation 20:4 is perfectly clear; it is only the martyrs killed during the GT that are brought back to life.
    The resurrection of ALL the dead does not happen until the GWTJ.
    Even if you are right, the dead still resurrect before the GWTJ else they cannot stand there and be judged. But, you are wrong on Rev 20:4. It only focuses on that certain group but we are told "the dead in Christ rise first" which is all of them not one specific group. You are thus 0-2 on these issues being wrong on both counts.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  8. #113
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Why is the church absent from 92% of the NT?
    Good point. Its not.
    The true Church is always there and will overcome all the things spoken about in Rev to receive their reward at the end.

    rev 16....after the 6th bowl,

    15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”) 16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon

    17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, “It is done.”



    It is done at the second coming when he raises and judges the living and the dead at the 7th bowl.
    It is done, and time for the creating of all things new. without the old being present Amen.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Why is the church absent from 92% of the NT?
    Good point. Its not.
    The true Church is always there and will overcome all the things spoken about in Rev to receive their reward at the end.

    rev 16....after the 6th bowl,

    15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”) 16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon

    17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, “It is done.”



    It is done at the second coming when he raises and judges the living and the dead at the 7th bowl.
    It is done, and time for the creating of all things new. without the old being present Amen.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  9. #114
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Well, there has to be some sort of resurrection of the righteous up to the point of the tribulation period, since the OT has several passages that infer that idea.

    Also the GWT is not for the righteous.... dead, living, or zombie. The righteous have passed from death to life thru Yeshua and are no longer under condemnation. Now to be sure, there is a judgement of the righteous per Paul in Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10. That is the bema / seat judgment of rewards, not eternal life.

    The GWT is a prosecutorial judgement. It is one to prove that the Lord is justified in condemning them. The GWT passage in Revelation gives us no hint that any o these being judged get anything more than eternal punishment. They all go into the lake of fire. Not Sheol (hell) or any other place. Straight from the GWT to the lake of fire without stopping.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

  10. #115
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    Well, there has to be some sort of resurrection of the righteous up to the point of the tribulation period, since the OT has several passages that infer that idea.

    Also the GWT is not for the righteous.... dead, living, or zombie. The righteous have passed from death to life thru Yeshua and are no longer under condemnation. Now to be sure, there is a judgement of the righteous per Paul in Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10. That is the bema / seat judgment of rewards, not eternal life.

    The GWT is a prosecutorial judgement. It is one to prove that the Lord is justified in condemning them. The GWT passage in Revelation gives us no hint that any o these being judged get anything more than eternal punishment. They all go into the lake of fire. Not Sheol (hell) or any other place. Straight from the GWT to the lake of fire without stopping.
    No .. The book of life is opened at this time , revealing and glorifying the redeemed. ( righteous judgment of God ). The redeemed appear at the GWT immediately after the GT to tabernacle in the place prepared from the foundation of the world.



    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    Well, there has to be some sort of resurrection of the righteous up to the point of the tribulation period, since the OT has several passages that infer that idea.

    Also the GWT is not for the righteous.... dead, living, or zombie. The righteous have passed from death to life thru Yeshua and are no longer under condemnation. Now to be sure, there is a judgement of the righteous per Paul in Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10. That is the bema / seat judgment of rewards, not eternal life.

    The GWT is a prosecutorial judgement. It is one to prove that the Lord is justified in condemning them. The GWT passage in Revelation gives us no hint that any o these being judged get anything more than eternal punishment. They all go into the lake of fire. Not Sheol (hell) or any other place. Straight from the GWT to the lake of fire without stopping.
    No .. The book of life is opened at this time , revealing and glorifying the redeemed. ( righteous judgment of God ). The redeemed appear at the GWT immediately after the GT to tabernacle in the place prepared from the foundation of the world.



    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  11. #116
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    No .. The book of life is opened at this time , revealing and glorifying the redeemed. ( righteous judgment of God ). The redeemed appear at the GWT immediately after the GT to tabernacle in the place prepared from the foundation of the world.



    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”
    You are referencing Revelation 7. The GWT is in revelation 20.... AFTER... the rebellion when Satan is released and stirs up trouble again. Come on now, at least debate honestly.

    Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    No .. The book of life is opened at this time , revealing and glorifying the redeemed. ( righteous judgment of God ). The redeemed appear at the GWT immediately after the GT to tabernacle in the place prepared from the foundation of the world.



    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”
    You are referencing Revelation 7. The GWT is in revelation 20.... AFTER... the rebellion when Satan is released and stirs up trouble again. Come on now, at least debate honestly.

    Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

  12. #117
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    You are referencing Revelation 7. The GWT is in revelation 20.... AFTER... the rebellion when Satan is released and stirs up trouble again.
    That part of Rev 7 is clearly a glimpse into the eternity.


    Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
    Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  13. #118
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That part of Rev 7 is clearly a glimpse into the eternity.


    Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
    Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    Thankyou ewq.

    Its an honest post Cliff.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  14. #119
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Even if you are right, the dead still resurrect before the GWTJ else they cannot stand there and be judged. But, you are wrong on Rev 20:4. It only focuses on that certain group but we are told "the dead in Christ rise first" which is all of them not one specific group. You are thus 0-2 on these issues being wrong on both counts.
    Sure; everyone will stand before the GWT. They will be made conscious, I doubt if it means back into their bodies as those whose names are found in the Book of Life, will receive Eternal bodies.
    The 'dead in Christ' of 1 Thess 4:16b, must be referring to just the martyrs of Revelation 20:4, or there is a contradiction in the Bible. Paul does NOT use the word; all.....' the dead on Christ'

    Calling other people wrong because they counter your beliefs, is an indictment against you. None of us have all the truth, but the firmly held belief of a 'rapture to heaven' and the necessity of a transformation in order for that theory to work, is simply never stated in the Bible. It is all a Satanic deception and sadly many have fallen for it.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Calling other people wrong because they counter your beliefs, is an indictment against you.
    Yet calling someone wrong because they are wrong is not an indictment against myself. It is a friendly and required action on my part else I would do you an injustice.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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