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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #121
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    Sounds interesting until one reads Revelation and finds out the church is never mentioned after Chapter 3 until the final salutation of the book. If the church was the focus it seems strange it isn’t even mentioned.
    So who is it seen in Rev 7 who came through the GT?
    They are definitely described as Christians.
    If they are IN Christ then that means His body is on earth, and therefore the Church is there.
    The focus in Revelation is enduring and this is mentioned in relation to the saints. Are you really suggesting the saints are NOT the Church?
    Matt 24:22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
    23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.

    Note that this speaks of the elect - are they not Christians?
    Do you not notice that Jesus states in verse 23 THEN... YOU.
    Clearly Jesus associates those who are there with YOU, to whom He was presently speaking.

  2. #122
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'd like to emphasize the fact that the whole idea of the Church being snatched up to heaven has to do with our physical conformity to God. Since God is in heaven, and we are on a sinful earth, we must all be translated into heaven, where God rules, and receive new physical bodies that are sinless and immortal.

    The major teaching originating this event at the 2nd Coming comes from Dan 7 where the Son of Man comes, after heavenly deliberations, descends from the clouds of heaven. The clouds of the sky represent heaven, where God rules. And since the Son of Man, Jesus, has ascended into heaven, to obtain his own glorified standing, we must be taken up to him to receive our own glorified bodies.

    And so, NT teaching derives from Dan 7 and repeats this notion of our physical transformation in heaven at the 2nd Coming of the Son of Man. As in Dan 7, the 2nd Coming of Christ takes place *after* the tribulations of the present age, which prevent Israel from obtaining her inheritance.

    Since Gentiles are now co-heirs of the Kingdom of heaven we will all obtain our inheritance at the same time that the faithful of Israel do, when Christ returns after the tribulations of the present age. That's why the book of Revelation was written, to encourage the Church to endure in times of tribulation, until we can be rescued at the return of Christ.
    So we CANNOT be physical transformed on earth?
    What does 1 Cor 15 show? 1 Thess 4 has the SAME. We are transformed BEFORE we meet Jesus in the clouds.
    Dan 7 does not make the suggestion even in the slightest way that we are raptured to heaven.

  3. #123
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yet calling someone wrong because they are wrong is not an indictment against myself. It is a friendly and required action on my part else I would do you an injustice.
    The proper way to refute someone who posts error, as you believe; is to prove your case with scripture. Let us see your proofs for a 'rapture' and a resurrection of all Christians before the GWTJ.

  4. #124
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The proper way to refute someone who posts error, as you believe; is to prove your case with scripture. Let us see your proofs for a 'rapture' and a resurrection of all Christians before the GWTJ.
    Al the dead are raised for the GWToJ.
    So a bit of a strange question.
    Those who were raised earlier than the GWToJ of course are not raised because they were ALREADY raised.

  5. #125
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    So we CANNOT be physical transformed on earth?
    What does 1 Cor 15 show? 1 Thess 4 has the SAME. We are transformed BEFORE we meet Jesus in the clouds.
    Dan 7 does not make the suggestion even in the slightest way that we are raptured to heaven.
    I Corinthians 15:50-56 is plainly a prophecy about the GWT Judgement. Proved by the fact of Death being no more then. Revelation 21:4
    There is no 'transformation' before, during or after Jesus Returns, except for the Tribulation martyrs, who are brought back to life, not yet made immortal.

  6. #126
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I Corinthians 15:50-56 is plainly a prophecy about the GWT Judgement. Proved by the fact of Death being no more then. Revelation 21:4
    There is no 'transformation' before, during or after Jesus Returns, except for the Tribulation martyrs, who are brought back to life, not yet made immortal.
    Nope, 1 Cor 15 is NOT about the GWToJ, as the death no more is ONLY for those who are resurrected AT THAT TIME, and not for everyone.
    Note that those who are raised for the GWToJ do NOT have the promise of no death, in fact they are called "the dead" in Rev 20. Some go as afar as to say they all will go to hell, but I take it that it is a judgement with some going to hell and others then being given life.
    1 Cor 15 is the SAME event as 1 Thess 4.
    15:23 states UNEQUIVOCALLY that those who are His AT HIS RETURN are resurrected to life. This is the Rapture as clearly noted in 1 Thess 4.
    And yes this is the time of transformation.
    Rev 20:4 is not an EXCLUSIVE statement but a special statement for those who go through the GT.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Al the dead are raised for the GWToJ.
    So a bit of a strange question.
    Those who were raised earlier than the GWToJ of course are not raised because they were ALREADY raised.
    You don't read scripture properly.
    Those martyrs whose souls are brought back to earth when Jesus Returns, are raised to life, but Revelation 20:6 says that over them the second death has no power, so they may die again and will eventually stand before God with everyone else, but as their names are Written in the Book of Life, they will receive immortality at the GWT.

  8. #128
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The proper way to refute someone who posts error, as you believe; is to prove your case with scripture. Let us see your proofs for a 'rapture' and a resurrection of all Christians before the GWTJ.
    That's been presented already.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  9. #129
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    You don't read scripture properly.
    Those martyrs whose souls are brought back to earth when Jesus Returns, are raised to life, but Revelation 20:6 says that over them the second death has no power, so they may die again and will eventually stand before God with everyone else, but as their names are Written in the Book of Life, they will receive immortality at the GWT.
    Really, in what way don't I read it properly?
    I agree that the martyrs are resurrected - they are the dead in Christ after all. I also agree that over them - those who were dead for Christ (and in Christ) - the second death has no power over.
    Therefore it is a bizarre claim to say they can die again.
    They were dead (PHYSICALLY) and we are told they are made alive PHYSICALLY, and we are told they are ALIVE SPIRITUALLY (for the second death has no power over them). Therefore they HAVE immortality.
    The same is true of those who are raptured at Jesus return. However this promise of no more death is ONLY for those who are raised to life at His return.

    Not a SINGLE Christian will stand before the GWToJ for judgement. We will ALREADY have been raided from the dead and will not be part of that group who is raised for judgement.

  10. #130
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    except for the Tribulation martyrs, who are brought back to life, not yet made immortal.
    That passage and others are clear they are resurrected to immortality so this is clearly wrong.

    1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
    1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
    1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    This is the same exact timeframe and event in which the beheaded saints are raised incorruptible, the second coming and last trump.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  11. #131
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Not a SINGLE Christian will stand before the GWToJ for judgement. We will ALREADY have been raided from the dead and will not be part of that group who is raised for judgement.
    The GWT is Gods righteous judgment ,and all will be there to receive what is written in the books. The book of life is opened revealing the redeemed who belong to the Lamb.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  12. #132
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    The GWT is Gods righteous judgment ,and all will be there to receive what is written in the books. The book of life is opened revealing the redeemed who belong to the Lamb.
    It is God's righteous judgment on those who are NOT in Christ.
    We will NOT be there. We will ALREADY have been given eternal life, and ALREADY transformed BEFORE the GWToJ.
    This is about those who died without knowing Jesus. They are judged therefore as Paul noted in Romans 2, and as is stated elsewhere.

    As a Christian we have passed from death to life.

    On a separate note the chronology shows this (even if you are Amil).

    Jesus returns
    Those who are in Christ (the dead first and then the living) are raptured and transformed, clothed in the imperishable (as 1 Cor 15 states) at His return.
    Then the rest of the dead are raised (premil says this is after the MK).
    Then we have the GWToJ, but ALL Christians are ALREADY clothed in the imperishable, we already HAVE eternal life. This is the blessed assurance we have, which is fulfilled at His appearing.

    Our judgement is NOT for eternal life, but for rewards.

  13. #133
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It is God's righteous judgment on those who are NOT in Christ.
    We will NOT be there. We will ALREADY have been given eternal life, and ALREADY transformed BEFORE the GWToJ.
    This is about those who died without knowing Jesus. They are judged therefore as Paul noted in Romans 2, and as is stated elsewhere.

    As a Christian we have passed from death to life.

    On a separate note the chronology shows this (even if you are Amil).

    Jesus returns
    Those who are in Christ (the dead first and then the living) are raptured and transformed, clothed in the imperishable (as 1 Cor 15 states) at His return.
    Then the rest of the dead are raised (premil says this is after the MK).
    Then we have the GWToJ, but ALL Christians are ALREADY clothed in the imperishable, we already HAVE eternal life. This is the blessed assurance we have, which is fulfilled at His appearing.

    Our judgement is NOT for eternal life, but for rewards.
    Paul gives a good example of Gods righteous judgment in 2 thess 1.-- Christians and non Christians are caught up in it.

    3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

    5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
    8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

    11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  14. #134
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Paul gives a good example of Gods righteous judgment in 2 thess 1.-- Christians and non Christians are caught up in it.

    3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

    5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
    8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

    11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Weird. In this Paul speaks about our persecution BEFORE He returns.
    When Jesus returns is NOT to afflict us more. That is then on those who afflicted us. Therefore clearly separate.

    There is NO WHERE in scripture where Christians are judged for eternal life. That is sorted because Jesus took the penalty we deserve. This is the gospel we have. No judgement for ANYONE who is IN Christ (for eternal life).

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Weird. In this Paul speaks about our persecution BEFORE He returns.
    When Jesus returns is NOT to afflict us more. That is then on those who afflicted us. Therefore clearly separate.
    Don't understand what you are trying to say here. All Christians are glorified when he comes to eternally separate those who have rejected him ….v 8,9,10

    There is NO WHERE in scripture where Christians are judged for eternal life. That is sorted because Jesus took the penalty we deserve. This is the gospel we have. No judgement for ANYONE who is IN Christ (for eternal life).

    We are judged and revealed as righteous that's all, and we receive our inheritance being the prepared place.


    34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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