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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #316
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    This and your next comment, are rude and unchristian. As well as inaccurate.
    I do say Christians will rise at Jesus' Return. But only those martyrs killed during the Great Trib. As Revelation 20:4 plainly states.
    You think Paul means every Christian is raised in 1 Cor 15:23. He doesn't say that and we find the actual people who will be raised then in Rev 20:4.

    Note that 1 Cor 15:23 goes on in verse 24 to say how Jesus will hand the Kingdom back to the Father at the end of the Millennium. These 2 verses actually tie together, so I see Pauls statement that [ALL] those who belong to Christ will be raised, as part of the GWT Judgment and they will then receive immortality.

    There is no immortality before the end of the entire 7000 year period of mankind and there is no reason there should be.
    Well, I disagree because you are wrong.

  2. #317
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Your point 2 is specifically a pretrib claim. Nowhere does scripture say that he Rapture is not seen.
    Point 3 actually shows Jesus leaving heaven, which is when the trumpet is blown and the rapture then occurs. Again you are going on pretrib thinking which requires the saints to be in the 3rd heaven already.

    What you seem to suggest is Jesus comes down to the clouds, has a secret Rapture and then returns to heaven with the saints and then comes again a third time - all pretrib nonsense.

    Your point 4 actually should help you get things right. Jesus is the Bridegroom which requires him to leave His home (heaven) and go to where the Bride is (earth) and get her and take her to His new home (NJ).
    There is no glorified church in heaven. The church is Raptured, which is when the Dead are glorified, and the living also - there is no event before that when the Church is glorified.
    So it's your view that the left behind will see the saints flying off into the sky? You couldn't be further from the truth. The Rapture will be a disappearing act. The left behind will see the clothes left by the Raptured but will neither see them fly off nor see them welcomed by Jesus in the clouds.

    Your argument is simply illogical. Meeting the saints in the air is NOT Jesus returning to earth; it is rather a junk doctrine to ignore the sequence of events in Rev 19. Unless you can prove that the meeting between Jesus and the saints in the air is open for the earth to see, I wonder why you insist on forcing it to be the Glorious return which "every eye shall see"? Rev 1:7.

    You are so fixated with your spurious argument that you're not even paying attention to what I say. My position is consistent with scripture; Jesus welcomes the raptured/resurrected church in the air and takes them back to heaven where they are described as "voice of much people" in heaven Rev 19:1. We see the events that follow before they accompany Jesus on his glorious return to earth in verses 11-18.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Part of the problem is in your translation on Rev 19:1
    After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out, (ESV)

    You have it as "people", so I guess this is from the NKJV or may be GNT.
    However the word is not for people, but simple a large group, ie crowd or multitude. This could mean people or it could mean angels.
    There are NO people in heaven and angels are not described as 'multitude'. It actually pays to align your theories with scripture.

  3. #318
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Well, I disagree because you are wrong.
    You disagree because what I point out conflicts with your beliefs.
    Beliefs that are based on assumptions, inferences and pure guesswork.

    The theory of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, is not Biblical.
    1/ Such a idea is not found in the Bible.
    2/ Jesus refutes it five times; John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, Revelation 5:10
    3/ Unprecedented, why should God remove His people today, when all up until today have been persecuted and martyred.
    4/ The prophets have told us what will happen in the end times; it is that we must endure until the end.
    5/ The ongoing dispute of pre, mid, post or anytime rapture, is evidence enough of there being no proper scripture about a 'rapture'.
    6/ Jesus said that we could be deceived. He was right!
    7/ Peter said that Satan is prowling around looking who he can devour with his lies and Paul says that people will listen to 'nice' stories, turning away from sound teaching.

    God has given us the information so we know His Plans for the end times, great Promises of protection and Blessings to His people as they stand firm in their faith thru all that must happen.

  4. #319
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    So it's your view that the left behind will see the saints flying off into the sky? You couldn't be further from the truth. The Rapture will be a disappearing act. The left behind will see the clothes left by the Raptured but will neither see them fly off nor see them welcomed by Jesus in the clouds.
    Really, you think that we will just disappear?
    What scripture are you basing that off? You seem to be following the "left behind" pretrib idea.
    In scripture we have two clear examples of a rapture and one which seems as close as a rapture as possible.
    The first was Elijah, and there is no suggestion he lost his clothes, left them behind or anything like that. He did drop his cloak, so perhaps you are suggesting that wasn't all he dropped - though I think if more had been left behind that would have been mentioned. He also was not invisible.
    The one which is like a rapture is of course the ascension of Jesus. Now the verb for rapture is not used, but we are told that our rapture will be of like kind when He returns in similar fashion - and we will be the ones going to the clouds. No mention of Jesus losing his clothes nor of being invisible.
    The second clear rapture in the NT is where Philip was raptured in Acts 8:39 and 40. Now it does say that after Philip was caught away the eunuch didn't see him anymore, so you may claim he was invisible, but that isn't what was actually stated. Also it does NOT seem that Philip lost his clothes.
    The Rapture is NOT portrayed as a disappearing act, but an appearing act. The dead rise, and will have PHYSICAL therefore visible bodies, and we rise and are clothed in immortality and He is seen meeting us in the clouds. This will be a VERY visible act.

    Your argument is simply illogical. Meeting the saints in the air is NOT Jesus returning to earth; it is rather a junk doctrine to ignore the sequence of events in Rev 19. Unless you can prove that the meeting between Jesus and the saints in the air is open for the earth to see, I wonder why you insist on forcing it to be the Glorious return which "every eye shall see"? Rev 1:7.

    You are so fixated with your spurious argument that you're not even paying attention to what I say. My position is consistent with scripture; Jesus welcomes the raptured/resurrected church in the air and takes them back to heaven where they are described as "voice of much people" in heaven Rev 19:1. We see the events that follow before they accompany Jesus on his glorious return to earth in verses 11-18.
    What is illogical?
    Jesus leaves heaven and comes to the earth, this is called His Second Coming.
    This is the blessed hope we are waiting for.
    I haven't ignored a single event in Rev 19, I am simply highlighting that the word "people" is not used in the Greek.
    The order is quite clear, and there is no marriage WITHOUT the Bride, who has made herself ready. Where is the Bride? She is on the earth waiting for her Bridegroom.

    As the meeting will be in the clouds, then I suppose it depends on whether the place will be very cloudy as to how easy it will be to see. It is also questionable how long it will take for us all to be raptured to where He is. However He certainly will be seen, as this IS His glorious return. I have no idea why you think it is NOT His glorious return:
    Titus 2:13 & 14 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

    There are NO people in heaven and angels are not described as 'multitude'. It actually pays to align your theories with scripture.
    I agree that there are no people in heaven. However the angels are described as saying this in Rev 5:
    Rev 5:11* Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,*
    Rev 5:12* saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!”

    Quite similar to this:
    Rev 19:1* After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,*
    Rev 19:2* for his judgments are true and just; for he has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality, and has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”

    The point is that nowhere do we have PEOPLE going into heaven, as a great multitude. yet Rev 19:1 is clearly a great crowd. Also Jesus has NOT yet descended or left heaven, so it CANNOT be people IN Heaven at this time.
    Your chronology doesn't actually work, for where is your rapture to heaven?

  5. #320
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    God's plan to unite us as one was Calvary; Jesus; He was their unity with us.
    He does indeed achieve that unity breaking down the wall that separates us.
    The question is WHEN?
    Is Daniel ALREADY resurrected? No, then we are not yet united with him.
    So WHEN Daniel is resurrected THEN the division is removed between us.

    Their faith looking forward to Him; was the same faith we have looking back on what He did for us.
    That the term 'Christian' didn't exist, has no bearing that God's faithful people are one group; not divided, segmented, discontinued subgroups.
    So Jesus was wrong to say that He has people from another fold?
    Jesus separated us, and it is clear that Christians are NOT Jews (at the moment) and Jews are NOT Christians (no matter how faithful they are to God.)

    When Hebrews says they did not obtain what they were seeking, is that they lived before the cross; before the incarnation of the Messiah to earth.
    But by their faith, like us, they participate in the same blessings and the same destiny.
    Those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth, include everyone Christ died for, from Adam forward.
    They will indeed participate one day, though you get it backward, for we are participating in the blessing they will one day receive.
    That they will receive it is not being questioned, the question is simply of WHEN this will happen.
    Daniel was SPECIFICALLY told it would happen at the resurrection of the just and unjust. This resurrection occurs at the GWToJ, or do you disagree with this timing?

    Paul told us specifically, that the OT faithful did have Christ.
    I believe him.
    I Corinthians 10:1 "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."
    Paul states they were baptised unto MOSES.

    Peter taught the same thing, here:
    I Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. "
    They searched and prophesied but did not find.

    When you exclude the OT faithful from the body of Christ, you create disunity with the foundation of His temple of holy stones made without hands.
    Abraham and Job are my brothers in Christ; by their faith and by my faith, we have the same destiny, and the same hope because of what Christ accomplished.
    Job's faith is the same as mine, the same expectation as mine.
    Who is in the Body of Christ? There is ONLY one group of PEOPLE who are in the Body and that is those who are IN Christ.
    You confuse the present REALITY and the FUTURE promise.

    Job 19:25 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. "
    Job had faith in Jesus, so did the disciples, and so do I.
    Nope, Job did not have faith in Jesus but in God, who was his redeemer.

    I John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you"
    You can't begin to get eschatology correct, until you get Jesus and the cross correct, and how that applied to every human that ever lived equally, and as one family; to all who believe.
    When you make the OT faithful some lesser, separate, non-included subgroup, you miss completely what Christ accomplished for them, the same as He accomplished for us.
    You simply miss what the Jews missed.
    They missed Jesus and so did NOT receive Him and lost out and have been through great distress, and have a partial hardening until the time of the Gentiles is over.
    This is FACTUAL reality, and what scripture stated would happen and has happened.
    There is a FUTURE promise for them, which is not in doubt, for Jesus died for them as for everyone.

    Paul summarizes this concept, exactly clear, and exactly perfect here:
    Ephesians 2:13 "in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together
    God has joined us and the prophets together in one body in Christ; there is no argument. If you want to argue, time for a self-check.
    I have checked this, and so far you have provided NOTHING which states that any Jew, who is NOT a Christian will be resurrected BEFORE the GWToJ.
    He makes in Himself us one, that we might BOTH be reconciled to God. This is not the question.
    Here Paul though is speaking to the Ephesians and telling them they are part of God's household and that the foundation is upon the prophets and apostles.
    It nowhere states that they are therefore Jews, or that Jews are Christians.
    This is clearly where you are wrong. You are claiming that the two are one, when it is the FUTURE promise of us being one IN Him.

  6. #321

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    To me where we go isn't as big of a deal as who we go to. Others have quoted 1 Thess. 4; I will as well:

    "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

  7. #322
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    To me where we go isn't as big of a deal as who we go to. Others have quoted 1 Thess. 4; I will as well:

    "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
    Well stated. The where simply helps us understand His plans which He has revealed to us.

  8. #323
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post

    So Jesus was wrong to say that He has people from another fold?
    Jesus was referring to the upcoming drawing of the gentiles out of darkeness, into the light with the faithful prophets of old. One fold. First the Jew, then later (Pentecost onward) the Gentile.

    Everything else you said, has no value to me. I will not accept the idea that the OT faithful are not just as much in Christ as you or I am, solely because of the date they were born.
    Their faith in the Messiah that would come, is sufficient for us to be the same body in Christ.

    The passages I listed show we are the same body in Christ, regardless of time.

    God's faithful people have always existed, and Christ has always been the uniting factor of faith.

    Jesus summed it up quite well here, and here to those who didn't believe Him:

    John 5:43 "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

    Luke 24:24 " Then Jesus said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. "

    "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me" John 12:32


    Paul even makes it clear the continuity of the OT and NT believers together here, in his opening salutation to the Romans:

    "unto the gospel of God, Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord"


    You say the Prophets didn't know Jesus. You say they were of a different group than modern believers.

    Jesus, said otherwise.
    You division of God's people and exclusion of some of God's people from Christ is not pursuasive.

  9. #324

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Really, you think that we will just disappear?
    What scripture are you basing that off?

    []

    The Rapture is NOT portrayed as a disappearing act, but an appearing act. The dead rise, and will have PHYSICAL therefore visible bodies, and we rise and are clothed in immortality and He is seen meeting us in the clouds. This will be a VERY visible act.
    Let me ask you this. Do you believe Jesus had a BODY, *like* we WILL have, when after His resurrection He "sat at meat" with the 2 Emmaus-road walkers [the evening of His Resurrection Day/ON FIRSTFRUIT (Lev23:10-12)] where it says, "And their eyes were opened, and they knew Him; and He VANISHED out of their sight." Lk24:31

    Are you saying that He didn't have His final PHYSICAL BODY at that point yet; OR are you saying that "VANISHED" means something different than what I think it does; OR are you saying that OUR bodies will be DIFFERENT from His was; OR are you saying... something else? (I think I had another option, but I'm forgetting what that was, at the moment )

    Because this is exactly "how" I see our Rapture [to be] taking place. I mean, I do believe WE ("the Church which is His body") will see it all, but I don't believe those who are not raptured will "SEE" anything (you may recall that I believe His 40-DAY-LATER "VISIBLE" thing pertains to His Second Coming to the earth, VISIBLY/"OPENLY MANIFEST" [1Tim6:15], per Rev19 etc, but that the thing He told MM on His Resurrection Day/ON FF was not "visible" to anyone, but was ONLY communicated verbally to others via His direction to her to do so [and accomplished ("[ACTIVE] ascend"]) that very day, ON FF])

  10. #325
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Let me ask you this. Do you believe Jesus had a BODY, *like* we WILL have, when after His resurrection He "sat at meat" with the 2 Emmaus-road walkers [the evening of His Resurrection Day/ON FIRSTFRUIT (Lev23:10-12)] where it says, "And their eyes were opened, and they knew Him; and He VANISHED out of their sight." Lk24:31
    Yes.

    Are you saying that He didn't have His final PHYSICAL BODY at that point yet; OR are you saying that "VANISHED" means something different than what I think it does; OR are you saying that OUR bodies will be DIFFERENT from His was; OR are you saying... something else? (I think I had another option, but I'm forgetting what that was, at the moment )
    Why He vanished is unknown. It doesn't say He was raptured. Simply that he vanished.

    Because this is exactly "how" I see our Rapture [to be] taking place. I mean, I do believe WE ("the Church which is His body") will see it all, but I don't believe those who are not raptured will "SEE" anything (you may recall that I believe His 40-DAY-LATER "VISIBLE" thing pertains to His Second Coming to the earth, VISIBLY/"OPENLY MANIFEST" [1Tim6:15], per Rev19 etc, but that the thing He told MM on His Resurrection Day/ON FF was not "visible" to anyone, but was ONLY communicated verbally to others via His direction to her to do so [and accomplished ("[ACTIVE] ascend"]) that very day, ON FF])
    I have NO idea WHY you think Jesus vanishing from two of His disciples speaks about the rapture.
    We don't know whether we will be able to disappear.

    Also an important point is that when we are raptured we don't know at what moment we are transformed. It may only be at the moment of meeting Him in the clouds, it may be before then.

    What I did was give scriptures of raptures and what Jesus did (and in which manner He will return), which all seem visible. So even if it may be possible for us to vanish, there is no reason to think we will.

  11. #326
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Jesus was referring to the upcoming drawing of the gentiles out of darkeness, into the light with the faithful prophets of old. One fold. First the Jew, then later (Pentecost onward) the Gentile.
    So you agree that there are two folds.
    So is the Jew fully in the fold right now?

    Everything else you said, has no value to me. I will not accept the idea that the OT faithful are not just as much in Christ as you or I am, solely because of the date they were born.
    Their faith in the Messiah that would come, is sufficient for us to be the same body in Christ.
    Well if you refuse to accept scripture, what can anyone say?

    The passages I listed show we are the same body in Christ, regardless of time.
    God's faithful people have always existed, and Christ has always been the uniting factor of faith.
    We are all God's faithful people, and the fact you ignore this statement says a lot about the paucity of your view.

    Jesus summed it up quite well here, and here to those who didn't believe Him:
    John 5:43 "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

    And? Moses would have if he could, but he didn't.

    Luke 24:24 " Then Jesus said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. "
    And? This does not make a single Jew a Christian.

    "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me" John 12:32
    Paul even makes it clear the continuity of the OT and NT believers together here, in his opening salutation to the Romans:
    "unto the gospel of God, Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord"


    You say the Prophets didn't know Jesus. You say they were of a different group than modern believers.
    They clearly are of a different fold. Jesus said the "least of the KoG is greater than John the Baptist". This is not because of faith, nor about the Holy Spirit, nor miracles nor works, but simply a child who is IN the KoG is greater than John the Baptist, who is the greatest of the OT men of God (according to this:
    Mat 11:11* Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

    Jesus, said otherwise.
    You division of God's people and exclusion of some of God's people from Christ is not pursuasive.
    No, Jesus did NOT say otherwise.
    Nor did any of the Apostles.
    Not a single one of them said a Jew is a Christian (except he believes in Jesus).
    Rather they said that the people of faith were looking forward to something they would not see.
    One day we will be in the one Kingdom, which is AFTER the GWToJ.

    However I notice that you failed to answer so simple questions which DIRECTLY challenge your stance.
    Do you agree that Daniel and David will be raised form the dead and will face the GWToJ?
    If you do then it is ABUNDANTLY clear that Daniel and David are NOT Christians.

    Yet Dan 12:13 for one shows that Daniel will (though he will be judged righteous).

    You see at heart is the question whether someone is judged for Eternal Life or not. Are you arguing that none of the righteous are judged?

  12. #327

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Yes.

    Why He vanished is unknown. It doesn't say He was raptured. Simply that he vanished.
    I didn't speak anything to the point of HIS BEING "raptured".

    I was asking you this particular question (questions) based on what you had said in your post, that it will definitely be "VISIBLE" BECAUSE we will have our glorified PHYSICAL BODIES (which bodies, apparently according to your view, cannot "VANISH" or "DISAPPEAR" as Trivalee put it [and I agree with Trivalee])

  13. #328

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    ^ I didn't word that quite as well as I should have, hope you all grasp my meaning despite the flub-up that I cannot now edit.

  14. #329
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I didn't speak anything to the point of HIS BEING "raptured".

    I was asking you this particular question (questions) based on what you had said in your post, that it will definitely be "VISIBLE" BECAUSE we will have our glorified PHYSICAL BODIES (which bodies, apparently according to your view, cannot "VANISH" or "DISAPPEAR" as Trivalee put it [and I agree with Trivalee])
    I didn't say CANNOT. I said this is what scripture shows when people are raptured. I even highlighted Philip with the Eunuch which may or may not have been a vanishing. What kind of body we have is immaterial really, as it is the work of the Holy Spirit who can vanish us IF He so chooses.

    The point of the Rapture is PRIMARILY Jesus' return. This is a visible EVENT:
    Mat 24:27* For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

    Now if you hold to the (truly bizarre) pre-trib idea, then of course you HAVE to have it as a secret event. This is why I noted for Trivalee his view is simply a pre-trib one.
    However IF you hold to post-trib, then Jesus' return is SEEN, and there is no reason for people to be invisible, and nor for them to lose their clothes.
    I highlighted that in not one rapture event (nor in your example) did anyone leave their clothes behind.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree that there are some good arguments for believing immortals will somehow be on the Millennial earth. For one thing, we return with Christ to establish his Kingdom here. Secondly, we are told we will reign over the earth.

    So you're on solid ground, in this regard. I just have a problem understanding *how* we will exist here, whether in some multi-dimensional sense, or otherwise?
    The immortal body is flesh, just a different and better type...there is no issue with an immortal living on this Earth just as Christ lived here with mortals for awhile, and he will return and do so again with many others coming with him.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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