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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #451
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    Which scripture did you make vanish

    JOHN 3 [12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? [13] And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    Above scripture relates to the so called rapture
    That has nothing to do with the rapture.


    JOHN 7 [33] Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I GO UNTO HIM THAT SENT ME.[34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and WHERE I AM, THITHER YE CANNOT COME.

    I go to Him that sent me. To the Father. Heaven. Jesus said we cant go there.
    He isn't saying that. He is saying the living disciples can't follow him to heaven.


    This to relates

    JOHN 17 [14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, BUT THAT THOU SHOULDEST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL.

    The Word knew you guys would come along.

    So which of those scriptures do not relate to the rapture?
    None of them are about the rapture.


    A better question is WHY do you believe none of these scriptures would relate to your version of the rapture?
    Simply because none of them are related to the rapture. FYI my version of the rapture is the version Paul described.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  2. #452
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Those who say some scripture does not apply to us today, are self appointed arbiters who do it to suit their beliefs taught by men. A very serious thing to do, which may result in a more severe Judgment. Janes 3:1

    There is no scripture that says there will be a ‘rapture’, but there is plenty saying such a thing is impossible:
    John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.
    John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....
    John 8:21-23 Your home is on earth......
    John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take My followers out of the world, but keep them from the evil one.
    Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I Return. To those who are Victorious, to those who persevere in doing My will until the end, I will give them authority over the nations. Revelation 5:9-10

    We will all be here to face the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath:
    Luke 21:35....that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.
    Jeremiah 25:29...I am summoning a Sword against all the inhabitants of the earth.
    1 Corinthians 1:7-8 There is no gift you lack, while you wait expectantly for Jesus to Return. He will keep you firm in your faith until the end.......

  3. #453
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Those who say some scripture does not apply to us today, are self appointed arbiters who do it to suit their beliefs taught by men. A very serious thing to do, which may result in a more severe Judgment. Janes 3:1
    Those who say EVERY scripture APPLIES to us is misrepresenting scripture.
    What scripture tells us is that:
    2Ti 3:16* All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,*
    2Ti 3:17* that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.*

    So we are to LEARN and be made complete from ALL scripture, but something said to Gideon is not then a command for us. A command for Abraham to sacrifice his son is not a command for us to do the same.
    A statement made at a SPECIFIC time in history was true AT THAT TIME, but does NOT mean it will always be true.
    For example when God says that a distress will come NEVER equalled before or until that time, then this does NOT mean a greater distress might not come at a later date.
    We must ALWAYS take what is said in scripture as to its MEANING at the time it is said.
    To do otherwise is to DISTORT scripture and that is a dangerous thing to do.

  4. #454
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Those who say EVERY scripture APPLIES to us is misrepresenting scripture.
    What scripture tells us is that:
    2Ti 3:16* All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,*
    2Ti 3:17* that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.*

    So we are to LEARN and be made complete from ALL scripture, but something said to Gideon is not then a command for us. A command for Abraham to sacrifice his son is not a command for us to do the same.
    A statement made at a SPECIFIC time in history was true AT THAT TIME, but does NOT mean it will always be true.
    For example when God says that a distress will come NEVER equalled before or until that time, then this does NOT mean a greater distress might not come at a later date.
    We must ALWAYS take what is said in scripture as to its MEANING at the time it is said.
    To do otherwise is to DISTORT scripture and that is a dangerous thing to do.
    Sheer foolishness! I am referring to teachings for our information and how to live a godly life. As is every verse I posted in #451.
    When someone has to say verses like those do not apply to them in order to support a doctrine, then it is that doctrine that must be examined first, not the scripture.
    What is dangerous for you FHG and for all who expect God to take them to heaven before he devastates the earth on His Day of wrath, is the shocking let down you will experience when it doesn't happen.
    I suggest you read Psalms 91, for a good teaching of how the Lord will protect His People, during terrible happenings.

  5. #455
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    There is no scripture that says there will be a ‘rapture’, but there is plenty saying such a thing is impossible:
    John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.
    John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....
    John 8:21-23 Your home is on earth......
    John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take My followers out of the world, but keep them from the evil one.
    Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I Return. To those who are Victorious, to those who persevere in doing My will until the end, I will give them authority over the nations. Revelation 5:9-10 We will all be here to face the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath:
    Luke 21:35....that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.
    Jeremiah 25:29...I am summoning a Sword against all the inhabitants of the earth.
    1 Corinthians 1:7-8 There is no gift you lack, while you wait expectantly for Jesus to Return. He will keep you firm in your faith until the end.......
    First...With God nothing is impossible -Lk 1:37
    Next ...the verses from John does not exclude a rapture event. As has also been posted ...
    John 14...In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
    As Heaven was already 'prepared' endless eons ago, the Lord was obviously referring to somewhere that did not yet exist. How could that prophecy be fulfilled if the Lord did not come and take [what is apparently the Church] to this place?
    Whenever the 'world' is mentioned in these prophesies, it refers to an unbelieving world...
    Rom 12:2 1 Cor 1:20 1 Cor 5:10
    The 'sword that is summoned' is against an unbelieving world not the Church. Why would it be against a believing Church?

  6. #456

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Sheer foolishness! I am referring to teachings for our information and how to live a godly life. As is every verse I posted in #451.
    When someone has to say verses like those do not apply to them in order to support a doctrine, then it is that doctrine that must be examined first, not the scripture.
    What is dangerous for you FHG and for all who expect God to take them to heaven before he devastates the earth on His Day of wrath, is the shocking let down you will experience when it doesn't happen.
    I suggest you read Psalms 91, for a good teaching of how the Lord will protect His People, during terrible happenings.


    Very good points you make and I think I agree with your view points on end time events. I posted this on another thread, but believe it will fit well on this thread also.

    These are some conflicts that I see with the eschatology beliefs that the rapture of the church will occur prior to the 1000-year millennial reign (Points 1-4).

    According to common premil belief or similar variations, the church will be rapture, and Christ will return to Earth and set up a physical Kingdom on earth and will reign for a 1000 years. Of course only the saints will be raptured. But the unsaved will continue to live out their lives on earth as normal mortal human beings until after the 1000 year millennial period ends. Then after the 1000 years has ended, Satan will be loosed from the pit and shortly after, the Lord will destroy him and cast him into the lake of fire.

    Points:
    1) Immediately after the days of the tribulation period, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. Also, with the sound of a trumpet they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The Heaven and earth shall pass away. So, how can a kingdom can be established on a heaven and earth that is passed away (Matthew 24:29-35)?
    2) How is this physical kingdom going to be established on an Earth that has been melted with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:10)? Or how do they live with heavens flaming and on fire, being dissolved (2 Peter 3:10-12)?
    3) How are the unsaved that are not raptured going to breath with no heaven or atmosphere? Remember, they were departed as a scroll (2 Peter 3:10 & Rev 6:14)? The event in Rev 6:14 occurred on the 6th Seal. Most who believe as premil, do believe the 7 seals are all opened before the 1000-year millennial reign occurs.
    4) How will any mortal human be alive during the millennial after the rapture has occurred? There will be no more time. The Lord ended all time (Rev 10:6). And likewise, most who believe as premil, do believe the events in Rev 10:4-6, which are the sounding of the 7 trumpets are all sounded before the 1000-year millennial reign occurs.


    Matthew 24:
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    2 Peter 3:
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    Revelation 6:14
    And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    Revelation 10:
    4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
    5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
    6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

  7. #457
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    But the unsaved will continue to live out their lives on earth as normal mortal human beings until after the 1000 year millennial period ends. Then after the 1000 years has ended, Satan will be loosed from the pit and shortly after, the Lord will destroy him and cast him into the lake of fire.
    This part is the same in Amil and Premil.


    Points:
    1) Immediately after the days of the tribulation period, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. Also, with the sound of a trumpet they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The Heaven and earth shall pass away. So, how can a kingdom can be established on a heaven and earth that is passed away (Matthew 24:29-35)?
    Those verses do not say heaven and earth is passed away.

    2) How is this physical kingdom going to be established on an Earth that has been melted with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:10)? Or how do they live with heavens flaming and on fire, being dissolved (2 Peter 3:10-12)?
    None of that happens until after the GWTJ in preparation for the NHNE.


    3) How are the unsaved that are not raptured going to breath with no heaven or atmosphere? Remember, they were departed as a scroll (2 Peter 3:10 & Rev 6:14)?
    Heaven departing like a scroll doesn't mean there is no oxygen. If there was none, how exactly are these people moving and talking in verses 15-17?

    4) How will any mortal human be alive during the millennial after the rapture has occurred?
    The bible doesn't give those numbers.

    There will be no more time. The Lord ended all time (Rev 10:6).
    No, it doesn't say time ends. It's speaking of no delay in time before certain events happen. Time never ends. It literally goes on for an eternity.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  8. #458

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    This part is the same in Amil and Premil.

    Those verses do not say heaven and earth is passed away.

    None of that happens until after the GWTJ in preparation for the NHNE.

    Heaven departing like a scroll doesn't mean there is no oxygen. If there was none, how exactly are these people moving and talking in verses 15-17?

    The bible doesn't give those numbers.

    No, it doesn't say time ends. It's speaking of no delay in time before certain events happen. Time never ends. It literally goes on for an eternity.




    But the unsaved will continue to live out their lives on earth as normal mortal human beings until after the 1000 year millennial period ends. Then after the 1000 years has ended, Satan will be loosed from the pit and shortly after, the Lord will destroy him and cast him into the lake of fire.


    This part is the same in Amil and Premil.

    Yes, its the same regarding the unsaved, but regarding a rapture before the 1000 year millennial is where we differ. Those who endure until the end will be saved. Not by a premil rapture.



    Points:
    1) Immediately after the days of the tribulation period, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. Also, with the sound of a trumpet they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The Heaven and earth shall pass away. So, how can a kingdom can be established on a heaven and earth that is passed away (Matthew 24:29-35)?


    Those verses do not say heaven and earth is passed away.

    You are correct. Jesus said immediately after the tribulation of those days.... And concludes in verse 35 below:
    "Heaven and earth shall pass away." There is no mention of another period of living for another 1000 years, nor a another coming of Jesus after that period. He says in plain verbiage, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."

    Matthew 24:
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.



    2) How is this physical kingdom going to be established on an Earth that has been melted with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:10)? Or how do they live with heavens flaming and on fire, being dissolved (2 Peter 3:10-12)?

    None of that happens until after the GWTJ in preparation for the NHNE.

    Very well! So then I will ask; after the GWTJ, how is this physical kingdom on earth going to be established on earth for a 1000-year millennial reign, while in preparation for the NHNE, on a earth that has been melted with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:10)? Or how do they live with heavens flaming and on fire, being dissolved (2 Peter 3:10-12) while waiting for a new heaven?


    3) How are the unsaved that are not raptured going to breath with no heaven or atmosphere? Remember, they were departed as a scroll (2 Peter 3:10 & Rev 6:14)?

    Heaven departing like a scroll doesn't mean there is no oxygen. If there was none, how exactly are these people moving and talking in verses 15-17?

    When heaven is departed as a scroll, I assure you, there is no atmosphere. Peter said, "the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved".
    Most Amils do not believe Revelation is written in chronological order. Verse 14 is telling a story regarding heaven and earth passing away after the 1000-year millennial reign. The same story of the destruction of the heaven and earth is told again in later chapters of Revelation, but with a different view point or perspective.

    The scripture states; "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. This event is written in Rev 6 which occurs before Rev. 20.

    2 Peter 3:12
    Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved,



    4) How will any mortal human be alive during the millennial after the rapture has occurred?

    The bible doesn't give those numbers.

    Because there are no mortals alive after the 1000-year millennial.



    There will be no more time. The Lord ended all time (Rev 10:6).

    No, it doesn't say time ends. It's speaking of no delay in time before certain events happen. Time never ends. It literally goes on for an eternity.

    You are inserting an opinion on what you believe the scripture is implying, but that is not at all what the scripture actually says.
    It says, "there should be time no longer (Rev 10:6)" Time no longer means time no longer. Not an intercession or not a delay, not until certain events happen.

    Revelation 10:
    4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
    5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
    6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

  9. #459
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by tfcrew View Post
    The 'sword that is summoned' is against an unbelieving world not the Church. Why would it be against a believing Church?
    The wrath of God isn't against the people of God. He will destroy His enemies, who include the Jewish State of Israel. Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Jeremiah 12:14, Romans 9:27, +

    But as many scriptures tell us, we must be tested and pass thru this fiery Judgment. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, Hebrews 10:36-37

  10. #460
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Sheer foolishness! I am referring to teachings for our information and how to live a godly life. As is every verse I posted in #451.
    When someone has to say verses like those do not apply to them in order to support a doctrine, then it is that doctrine that must be examined first, not the scripture.
    What is dangerous for you FHG and for all who expect God to take them to heaven before he devastates the earth on His Day of wrath, is the shocking let down you will experience when it doesn't happen.
    I suggest you read Psalms 91, for a good teaching of how the Lord will protect His People, during terrible happenings.
    I notice you failed to actually address the point I made and instead try to build a strawman of what I was saying.
    I am highlighting a REALITY of scripture that for example we are NOT to circumcise ourselves as this is NOT for the Gentiles, but ONLY for the Jews. Paul makes this clear and states that those who would teach otherwise he wishes would castrate themselves. So are you teaching otherwise?
    God will 100% take me to heaven, because that is what His scripture promises (and which you are arguing I should be taking seriously), but I have noted a multitude of times, that "heaven" in this CONTEXT means the sky, where the clouds are.
    Also I have NEVER said we will be raptured from His wrath.

    Try to deal with the argument put before you, instead of creating an imaginary one.

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