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Thread: Raptured to heaven?

  1. #331
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    So you agree that there are two folds.
    So is the Jew fully in the fold right now?
    There is no Jew fold. There is one fold now containing both Jew and Gentile, and it continues to be filled, as long as the Lord tarries.
    The reason Jesus said there were two folds in that passage, AT THAT TIME, is because the Lord had not yet started to bring the Gentiles out of the shadow of darkness, and into the family of God en-masse yet.
    That started at Pentecost. God's single fold, continues to grow, with sheep from every tongue, tribe, and nation joining in togther as living stones.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Do you agree that Daniel and David will be raised form the dead and will face the GWToJ?
    Every single human being will be raised, and given an account on the Final day of Judgment (GWT).

    Daniel and David and you and I will all be in the uncountable throng on judgement day, according to the scriptures.


    "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

    "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment"

    "Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. "

    "who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work"

    ""Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people."

    "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

    "the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. "

    "the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; "

    "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. "

    "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ..[B]how shall God judge the world[/B "

    "the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath"


    God's word solves all bad-doctrinal positions, like those who say the final judgment is only for this group or that group; but not group abc or group xyz.

    God's word above tells you who will be there giving an account to Him on Judgment Day.

    If you doctrine is conflicting with the verses, it's a good time to consider adjusting it.

  2. #332
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    There is no Jew fold. There is one fold now containing both Jew and Gentile, and it continues to be filled, as long as the Lord tarries.
    The reason Jesus said there were two folds in that passage, AT THAT TIME, is because the Lord had not yet started to bring the Gentiles out of the shadow of darkness, and into the family of God en-masse yet.
    That started at Pentecost. God's single fold, continues to grow, with sheep from every tongue, tribe, and nation joining in togther as living stones.




    Every single human being will be raised, and given an account on the Final day of Judgment (GWT).

    Daniel and David and you and I will all be in the uncountable throng on judgement day, according to the scriptures.


    "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

    "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment"

    "Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. "

    "who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work"

    ""Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people."

    "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

    "the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. "

    "the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; "

    "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. "

    "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ..[B]how shall God judge the world[/B "

    "the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath"


    God's word solves all bad-doctrinal positions, like those who say the final judgment is only for this group or that group; but not group abc or group xyz.

    God's word above tells you who will be there giving an account to Him on Judgment Day.

    If you doctrine is conflicting with the verses, it's a good time to consider adjusting it.
    The only problem with those verses is none of them show the just being judged at the same time as the unjust. Rev 20 shows the just judged before the unjust so that's the proper order and only Rev 20 tells how much time is inbetween the two days of mass judging.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    There is no Jew fold. There is one fold now containing both Jew and Gentile, and it continues to be filled, as long as the Lord tarries.
    The reason Jesus said there were two folds in that passage, AT THAT TIME, is because the Lord had not yet started to bring the Gentiles out of the shadow of darkness, and into the family of God en-masse yet.
    That started at Pentecost. God's single fold, continues to grow, with sheep from every tongue, tribe, and nation joining in togther as living stones.




    Every single human being will be raised, and given an account on the Final day of Judgment (GWT).

    Daniel and David and you and I will all be in the uncountable throng on judgement day, according to the scriptures.


    "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

    "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment"

    "Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. "

    "who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work"

    ""Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people."

    "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

    "the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. "

    "the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; "

    "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. "

    "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ..[B]how shall God judge the world[/B "

    "the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath"


    God's word solves all bad-doctrinal positions, like those who say the final judgment is only for this group or that group; but not group abc or group xyz.

    God's word above tells you who will be there giving an account to Him on Judgment Day.

    If you doctrine is conflicting with the verses, it's a good time to consider adjusting it.
    The only problem with those verses is none of them show the just being judged at the same time as the unjust. Rev 20 shows the just judged before the unjust so that's the proper order and only Rev 20 tells how much time is inbetween the two days of mass judging.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  3. #333
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


    Here we again have judgment of the righteous first! No wicked are being judged with the righteous. Exactly what Rev 20 shows.


    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Christ does not address time in this but according to Rev 20, there is a period of time inbetween the judgment of the dead in Christ vs. the rest of the dead so we know there is time inbetween these two judgments.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  4. #334
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The only problem with those verses is none of them show the just being judged at the same time as the unjust. Rev 20 shows the just judged before the unjust so that's the proper order and only Rev 20 tells how much time is inbetween the two days of mass judging.
    .
    The huge problem with your idea that the wicked and the righteous will be judged separately, is that those of either side can only be established by a Judgment.
    Your premise is impossible, as well as unscriptural.

    Revelation 20:11-15 is as plain as it is possible to be: ALL the people who have ever lived including those still alive at the end of the Millennium, will stand before God at the GWTJ. Obviously, Matthew 25:34-46 also refers after the GWTJ, where the wicked go to punishment and the righteous inherit the Eternal Kingdom

  5. #335
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The immortal body is flesh, just a different and better type...there is no issue with an immortal living on this Earth just as Christ lived here with mortals for awhile, and he will return and do so again with many others coming with him.
    You say there's no issue, but there is with me. And that's because this is a "highly unusual" situation. It was not normal for Jesus to live here with mortals for awhile, unless it was as a mortal himself. And I don't believe Jesus appeared in his glorified immortal body. He had been resurrected, I think, in his old mortal body.

    We have no real precedent for this kind of living arrangement. Men have not lived with angels for hundreds of years. We have never, as human beings, lived with immortals for hundreds of years. So no, I reject the idea that this is just par normal.

    But neither do I outright reject your proposition. It may be true, or not. I just don't have a firm basis for making the determination, apart from what I've already said.

    I know the Church is coming back with Christ to reign on earth. What that will look like I don't know. And what immortal bodies look like I don't know. Jesus certainly had a human appearance when he appeared as immortal. But he also had unusual capacities.

  6. #336

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

    ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

    ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

    No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

    The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period. Wheres that leave the pre-tribbers?

  7. #337

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Really alls ya gotta do is keep reading the so called rapture scripture

    1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    1 THES. 5 [1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a WOMAN WITH CHILD; and they shall not escape.

    Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. 1Thes.5 directly follows 1Thes.4 verse 18. There were no chapters and verses when 1Thes was written. It clearly says that the goins on of 1Thes.4 takes place on the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord takes place after the tribulatuion.

    Thes. scriptures---women with child—V.16 resurrection---sudden destruction—Day of the Lord
    Isaiah26-----------women with child----V.19 resurrection---punish earthlings-----Day of the Lord

    ISAIAH 26 [17] Like as a WOMAN WITH CHILD, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord. [18] We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, THE LORD COMETH OUT OF HIS PLACE TO PUNISH THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH FOR THEIR INIQUITY: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

    Isaiah 26 Verse 19. The dead in Christ shall rise first {1Thes.4v16}. It has to be. Cant be no other found in scripture.

  8. #338

    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    The two set of scriptures below are the same exact event. There is only one Second Coming (The Day of the Lord) and there is no rapture (as preached). When Jesus meets us in the air you will find no where in scripture that He brings us to heaven. What you do find in scripture is that He brings us to the 1000yr period of rest.

    1 Thessalonians 4 and 5
    4:15 - coming (Parousia)
    4:17 - clouds
    4:16 - shout, voice trump
    4:17 - caught up together
    5:1 – times and seasons
    5:2 - a thief
    5:3 - sudden destruction
    5:6 - watch

    Matthew 24
    24:27 - coming (Parousia)
    24:30 - clouds
    24:31 - sound of a trumpet
    24:31 - gather together
    24:36 - day or hour
    24:43 - a thief
    24:39 - took them in a flood
    24:42 - watch

    Do you think all these events will happen twice? No way. Both sets of scripture are describing a single event.

  9. #339
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

    ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

    ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

    No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

    The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period. Wheres that leave the pre-tribbers?
    Good post.

    Also the diligent bible student knows the 2nd Advent verses from 1 Thess 4 go with the 2nd Advent verses of 1 Thess 5; which specifically tells us it is occurring on The Day of the Lord.

    2 Thess 1 and 2 Thess 2 also corroborate the same expectation.

  10. #340
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    The two set of scriptures below are the same exact event. There is only one Second Coming (The Day of the Lord) and there is no rapture (as preached). When Jesus meets us in the air you will find no where in scripture that He brings us to heaven. What you do find in scripture is that He brings us to the 1000yr period of rest.

    1 Thessalonians 4 and 5
    4:15 - coming (Parousia)
    4:17 - clouds
    4:16 - shout, voice trump
    4:17 - caught up together
    5:1 – times and seasons
    5:2 - a thief
    5:3 - sudden destruction
    5:6 - watch

    Matthew 24
    24:27 - coming (Parousia)
    24:30 - clouds
    24:31 - sound of a trumpet
    24:31 - gather together
    24:36 - day or hour
    24:43 - a thief
    24:39 - took them in a flood
    24:42 - watch

    Do you think all these events will happen twice? No way. Both sets of scripture are describing a single event.
    Adding Mark’s variant wording...

    “From the uttermost part of the Earth
    To the uttermost part of Heaven”

    Shows this is not an earthly, ethnic, unbelieving Jewish gathering on the planet to Jerusalem, either, as some attempt to read into the Olivets Parousia Advent Return of Jesus, for His elect.

  11. #341
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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You say there's no issue, but there is with me. And that's because this is a "highly unusual" situation. It was not normal for Jesus to live here with mortals for awhile, unless it was as a mortal himself. And I don't believe Jesus appeared in his glorified immortal body. He had been resurrected, I think, in his old mortal body.

    We have no real precedent for this kind of living arrangement. Men have not lived with angels for hundreds of years. We have never, as human beings, lived with immortals for hundreds of years. So no, I reject the idea that this is just par normal.

    But neither do I outright reject your proposition. It may be true, or not. I just don't have a firm basis for making the determination, apart from what I've already said.

    I know the Church is coming back with Christ to reign on earth. What that will look like I don't know. And what immortal bodies look like I don't know. Jesus certainly had a human appearance when he appeared as immortal. But he also had unusual capacities.
    Obviously Jesus had His mortal body after He was resurrected. It still had holes in it! John 20:27 He was able to appear suddenly, but there are other ways of explaining that.

    We do have a firm basis for understanding that no one will become immortal until the GWTJ, because it is only then; the Book of Life will be opened and eternal life will be conferred upon those whose names are Written there.

    The 'Church' of every faithful Christian do not come back with Christ, because they will never leave this earth. Jesus Returns, accompanied by the armies of heaven. Matthew 16:27 & 25:31

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Obviously Jesus had His mortal body after He was resurrected. It still had holes in it! John 20:27 He was able to appear suddenly, but there are other ways of explaining that.
    Did Jesus have a mortal body? What did he do to deserve that? He would have lived forever if they hadn't killed him.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You say there's no issue, but there is with me. And that's because this is a "highly unusual" situation.
    I'm afraid that isn't evidence nor have you provided any. It cannot be denied that people will be immortal and will reign over the mortal nations for a thousand years...that's what the scriptures present and what they do not present is ruling from heaven. I already mentioned the rebel mortals after the thousand years that surround the city and camp of the saints. The saints are immortal and their camp is near Jerusalem, on the Earth where the immortals lived during the thousand years. The immortals don't have mortals in their camp but all do reside upon the Earth.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I'm afraid that isn't evidence nor have you provided any. It cannot be denied that people will be immortal and will reign over the mortal nations for a thousand years...that's what the scriptures present and what they do not present is ruling from heaven. I already mentioned the rebel mortals after the thousand years that surround the city and camp of the saints. The saints are immortal and their camp is near Jerusalem, on the Earth where the immortals lived during the thousand years. The immortals don't have mortals in their camp but all do reside upon the Earth.
    Sheer speculation and unscriptural nonsense.
    The fact is that immortality is only given to those who are worthy to be with God for Eternity. At the GWTJ, after the Millennium.

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    Re: Raptured to heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Did Jesus have a mortal body?
    Yep, that's why that body died.

    What did he do to deserve that?
    Get born.

    He would have lived forever if they hadn't killed him.
    lol...nothing contradictory in that!
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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