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Thread: origin of the 7 sealed scroll?

  1. #1
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    origin of the 7 sealed scroll?

    This is pure speculation, but I'm wondering if the origin of the 7 sealed scroll in Rev 5 comes from Dan 12?

    Rev 5.1
    Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals.

    Dan 12.
    4
    But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end.

    2ndly, are the 4 horsemen representative of angelic powers, since the 4 living creatures open the 1st 4 seals?

    Finally, are these 4 horsemen representative of divine judgment, such as when God sent armies against Israel to judge her? Is this beginning with the Roman Empire, as it conquered that part of the world? Or, is this about the end of the age, when God brings about final judgment to the earth?

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    Re: origin of the 7 sealed scroll?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is pure speculation, but I'm wondering if the origin of the 7 sealed scroll in Rev 5 comes from Dan 12?

    Rev 5.1
    Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals.

    Dan 12.
    4
    But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end.

    2ndly, are the 4 horsemen representative of angelic powers, since the 4 living creatures open the 1st 4 seals?

    Finally, are these 4 horsemen representative of divine judgment, such as when God sent armies against Israel to judge her? Is this beginning with the Roman Empire, as it conquered that part of the world? Or, is this about the end of the age, when God brings about final judgment to the earth?
    In times of yesteryear, they usually put 7 Seals on a Will. Now think of it like this, God is taking back the deed to earth. It is announced as such when Jesus returns.

    The Four Horsemen are all about one man, the Anti-Christ. All Six Seals are basically opened at the same time, with a smidgen of variance. The First Seal is the Anti-Christ RELEASED to go forth Conquering. But he goes forth Conquering for 3.5 years until Jesus STOPS HIM.

    The 2nd Seal is the same man taking Peace from the earth and how long does that last ? 3.5 years of Wars until Jesus returns.

    The 3rd Seal is Famine brought by these wars, endless wars which only end after Jesus returns in 3.5 years.

    The 4th Seal is Death and the Grave/Sickness, and that of course lasts for 3.5 years.

    So the Seals do not get opened, then we wait on one to come to pass and another is opened, the First Four Seals are all about the Anti-Christ, the Seals RELEASE HIM to do what he is going to do over a 3.5 year period, then we are shown the Martyrs or his handiwork in Seal #5. So all of those seals are opened Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing there is no wait, they are only RELEASING certain events, showing what this evil tyrant is going to do. Then the Sixth Seal is opened, at about the same time as the first 5 seals, it announces the Wrath of God supernaturally, but all the Seals are God's Wrath, he has allowed a tyrant to go forth Conquering. But no one waits on the Seals to pass, the 7th Seal is HELD UP, because the 144,000 or the Jews who flee Judea have to be given time before the 7th Seal is opened, because the 7th Seal beings the 7 Trumpet Judgments.

    So whilst the Beast accomplishes the FOUR SEALS bringing to pass the 5th Seal, which is ANNOUNCED as here/upon mankind by the Sixth Seal, the earth is getting pelted by the 7 Trumpet Judgments and the 7 Vial Judgments. It is all the Wrath of God.

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    Re: origin of the 7 sealed scroll?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is pure speculation, but I'm wondering if the origin of the 7 sealed scroll in Rev 5 comes from Dan 12?

    Rev 5.1
    Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals.

    Dan 12.
    4
    But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end.

    2ndly, are the 4 horsemen representative of angelic powers, since the 4 living creatures open the 1st 4 seals?

    Finally, are these 4 horsemen representative of divine judgment, such as when God sent armies against Israel to judge her? Is this beginning with the Roman Empire, as it conquered that part of the world? Or, is this about the end of the age, when God brings about final judgment to the earth?
    Dan 12 is not about Rev 5. Dan 12 is about the vision given at that time. However verse 4 speaks of a book which is first mentioned in verse 1, This would seem to be the book of life.

    Wikipedia makes the link you are proposing.

    Psalm 40:7 is an interesting connection as it states the scrollof the book is written of Him. IOW the focus is on Jesus (which is where it should be).

    Ezekiel 2 and 3 of course makes a good connection, and it ties into Rev 10. Is this the SAME scroll?
    However it could be a unique scroll.

    I don't see the 4 horsemen as angelic powers as such, rather there are symbolic representations of things.
    Yet they may be connected with the four living creatures.

    They are not about divine judgement though.

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    Re: origin of the 7 sealed scroll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    In times of yesteryear, they usually put 7 Seals on a Will. Now think of it like this, God is taking back the deed to earth. It is announced as such when Jesus returns.

    The Four Horsemen are all about one man, the Anti-Christ. All Six Seals are basically opened at the same time, with a smidgen of variance. The First Seal is the Anti-Christ RELEASED to go forth Conquering. But he goes forth Conquering for 3.5 years until Jesus STOPS HIM.

    The 2nd Seal is the same man taking Peace from the earth and how long does that last ? 3.5 years of Wars until Jesus returns.

    The 3rd Seal is Famine brought by these wars, endless wars which only end after Jesus returns in 3.5 years.

    The 4th Seal is Death and the Grave/Sickness, and that of course lasts for 3.5 years.

    So the Seals do not get opened, then we wait on one to come to pass and another is opened, the First Four Seals are all about the Anti-Christ, the Seals RELEASE HIM to do what he is going to do over a 3.5 year period, then we are shown the Martyrs or his handiwork in Seal #5. So all of those seals are opened Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing there is no wait, they are only RELEASING certain events, showing what this evil tyrant is going to do. Then the Sixth Seal is opened, at about the same time as the first 5 seals, it announces the Wrath of God supernaturally, but all the Seals are God's Wrath, he has allowed a tyrant to go forth Conquering. But no one waits on the Seals to pass, the 7th Seal is HELD UP, because the 144,000 or the Jews who flee Judea have to be given time before the 7th Seal is opened, because the 7th Seal beings the 7 Trumpet Judgments.

    So whilst the Beast accomplishes the FOUR SEALS bringing to pass the 5th Seal, which is ANNOUNCED as here/upon mankind by the Sixth Seal, the earth is getting pelted by the 7 Trumpet Judgments and the 7 Vial Judgments. It is all the Wrath of God.
    Okay, that's pretty reasonable. Thanks for your perspective. Do you believe the scroll relates to Dan 12? And do you think the creatures releasing the 4 horsemen are angels?

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    Re: origin of the 7 sealed scroll?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Dan 12 is not about Rev 5. Dan 12 is about the vision given at that time. However verse 4 speaks of a book which is first mentioned in verse 1, This would seem to be the book of life.

    Wikipedia makes the link you are proposing.

    Psalm 40:7 is an interesting connection as it states the scrollof the book is written of Him. IOW the focus is on Jesus (which is where it should be).

    Ezekiel 2 and 3 of course makes a good connection, and it ties into Rev 10. Is this the SAME scroll?
    However it could be a unique scroll.

    I don't see the 4 horsemen as angelic powers as such, rather there are symbolic representations of things.
    Yet they may be connected with the four living creatures.

    They are not about divine judgement though.
    It seems the 4 living creatures are the ones releasing the 4 horsemen. I see them as angels, but how can I know? I don't know if there is a single scroll for several of these occasions, or if each scroll simply represents an individual prophecy. But I'll check out your links. Thank you.

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    Re: origin of the 7 sealed scroll?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is pure speculation, but I'm wondering if the origin of the 7 sealed scroll in Rev 5 comes from Dan 12?

    Rev 5.1
    Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals.

    Dan 12.
    4
    But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end.

    2ndly, are the 4 horsemen representative of angelic powers, since the 4 living creatures open the 1st 4 seals?

    Finally, are these 4 horsemen representative of divine judgment, such as when God sent armies against Israel to judge her? Is this beginning with the Roman Empire, as it conquered that part of the world? Or, is this about the end of the age, when God brings about final judgment to the earth?
    I don't think the Daniels scroll and revelations scroll are the same at all. The scrolls are events of prophecy and Daniel was told to seal his up because the events in his were in his far future as when seals on scrolls were opened it meant that what was in the scroll was about to take place.

    John was told not to seal Revelations scroll because the events were about to happen. I believe that Revelations scroll are the same events of Matthew chapter 24 the time leading up to 70AD. So yes the ones in Revelation was Gods judgment by Rome on Israel

    The four living creatures don't open up the first four seals Jesus does.

    The verses below tells you what they are as these four horses even have the same colors.

    Zechariah 6:1-8
    6 I looked up again, and there before me were four chariots coming out from between two mountains—mountains of bronze. 2 The first chariot had red horses, the second black, 3 the third white, and the fourth dappled—all of them powerful. 4 I asked the angel who was speaking to me, “What are these, my lord?”

    5 The angel answered me, “These are the four spirits[a] of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world. 6 The one with the black horses is going toward the north country, the one with the white horses toward the west,[b] and the one with the dappled horses toward the south.”

    7 When the powerful horses went out, they were straining to go throughout the earth. And he said, “Go throughout the earth!” So they went throughout the earth.

    8 Then he called to me, “Look, those going toward the north country have given my Spirit[c] rest in the land of the north.”

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    Re: origin of the 7 sealed scroll?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I don't think the Daniels scroll and revelations scroll are the same at all. The scrolls are events of prophecy and Daniel was told to seal his up because the events in his were in his far future as when seals on scrolls were opened it meant that what was in the scroll was about to take place.

    John was told not to seal Revelations scroll because the events were about to happen. I believe that Revelations scroll are the same events of Matthew chapter 24 the time leading up to 70AD. So yes the ones in Revelation was Gods judgment by Rome on Israel

    The four living creatures don't open up the first four seals Jesus does.
    I didn't say otherwise. I'm just saying Jesus used the 4 cherubim to call forth the 4 horsemen. Dispensationalists tend to view everything beginning at ch. 4 and following as a time after the Rapture, involving the last 7 years of the age. I don't agree with Dispensationalism, nor with the Pretrib Rapture, but I think it's possible this latter section of the book has to do with the time of Antichrist, which I believe lasts 3.5 years.

    But I also see the Beast as a prophecy that originated in Dan 7, a beast representing the Roman Empire. And John certainly prophesied in the days of the Roman Empire. So I just don't know whether this prophecy of the 4 horsemen was designed to reflect on latter day Rome or on ancient Rome? I guess you're saying it took place in ancient Rome? Don't you believe in a future Roman Empire of sorts, under Antichrist? I guess not, if you are a preterist, and believe that Nero was the Antichrist?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox
    The verses below tells you what they are as these four horses even have the same colors.

    Zechariah 6:1-8
    6 I looked up again, and there before me were four chariots coming out from between two mountains—mountains of bronze. 2 The first chariot had red horses, the second black, 3 the third white, and the fourth dappled—all of them powerful. 4 I asked the angel who was speaking to me, “What are these, my lord?”

    5 The angel answered me, “These are the four spirits[a] of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world. 6 The one with the black horses is going toward the north country, the one with the white horses toward the west,[b] and the one with the dappled horses toward the south.”

    7 When the powerful horses went out, they were straining to go throughout the earth. And he said, “Go throughout the earth!” So they went throughout the earth.

    8 Then he called to me, “Look, those going toward the north country have given my Spirit[c] rest in the land of the north.”
    Yea, I know. The horses in Zechariah seem to have to do with Zechariah's time, and following, during the rebuilding of Jerusalem. Various powers in the world caused there to be a limited peace, to allow for Israel's restoration.

    That's why I think the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse represent an angelic preparation for the coming of God's Kingdom. Angelic events stifle world events, to enable the coming of Christ's Kingdom. Just as the Tower of Babel was stifled, so events in the world keep the world from developing its own utopia. Ultimately Christ's Kingdom comes as the real answer to the world's problems.

  8. #8

    Re: origin of the 7 sealed scroll?

    Dan 12 is finished, Daniel has been resurrected at the cross. Christ is the first seal, rather you are, rather the Christian movement. This beast are four planets that have four Angels that control each of them planets. The twenty are the elders over the four. Christ is the first and the last. The vials, trumpets, and seals. In Christ own Words He also states the first shall be last and the last shall be first. The Sabbath not included for in it God stop His creation rather rested the end of earth. They will open as 6 vial, 6 trumpet, 6 seal. Then 5 vial, 5 trumpet, 5 seal then 4,3,2,1 as this pattern shows. 7 is the end of time. Study in this manner and eyes will open.

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    Re: origin of the 7 sealed scroll?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Reese View Post
    Dan 12 is finished, Daniel has been resurrected at the cross. Christ is the first seal, rather you are, rather the Christian movement. This beast are four planets that have four Angels that control each of them planets. The twenty are the elders over the four. Christ is the first and the last. The vials, trumpets, and seals. In Christ own Words He also states the first shall be last and the last shall be first. The Sabbath not included for in it God stop His creation rather rested the end of earth. They will open as 6 vial, 6 trumpet, 6 seal. Then 5 vial, 5 trumpet, 5 seal then 4,3,2,1 as this pattern shows. 7 is the end of time. Study in this manner and eyes will open.
    That's rather strange! There are some commentators who see Christ as the rider on the white horse--the 1st horse. Since this rider conquers, it could be a conquering Christian Army, perhaps represented by Roman or European armies in history. Certainly, Christian civilization has grown powerful in history, and has often had its way in history!

    I don't know what planets have to do with angels except that stars are sometimes used as metaphors for angels. Perhaps like Mormons you believe men and angels rule planets? I do believe the elders and the cherubim in the throne room represent angelic orders, much as we have human orders on earth. They carry out God's judgments on earth, just as the 1st angel barred Man from the way back to the tree of life. I personally believe the throne room scene in Rev 4-5 is based on the throne room scene in Dan 7, which is the court that determines Christ's Kingdom will rule over the kingdoms of this world.

    I don't understand the 7 days of Creation being equated with the 7 vials, trumpets, and seals unless you're just saying that these judgments bring all of creation to a place of rest? I might agree with this. Thanks for your input.

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    Re: origin of the 7 sealed scroll?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That's rather strange! There are some commentators who see Christ as the rider on the white horse--the 1st horse. Since this rider conquers, it could be a conquering Christian Army, perhaps represented by Roman or European armies in history. Certainly, Christian civilization has grown powerful in history, and has often had its way in history!
    My own view of the first seal is that this is Christendom - the unification of state and church, and so leading to the church conquering nations through the state. It isn;t Anti-christ and yet it also is not Christ. It is not His Kingdom, but Man's attempt at His Kingdom, hence ChristENdom.

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    Re: origin of the 7 sealed scroll?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    My own view of the first seal is that this is Christendom - the unification of state and church, and so leading to the church conquering nations through the state. It isn;t Anti-christ and yet it also is not Christ. It is not His Kingdom, but Man's attempt at His Kingdom, hence ChristENdom.
    I consider that very possible. Israel was never fully compliant either. And so, the Church has been largely a nominal faith in history, and yet containing the true Church, which are true believers residing within these states.

    I would never argue that all of the crusades, or all of Western colonialism, has been the product of genuine Christian interests! But neither would I say that everything Western civilization has done should be suspect, and criticized as the most barbaric cases of inhumanity vs humanity!

    There have been plenty of civilizations and cultures that have been guilty of great cruelty against their fellow man. Christianity contained a superior religion, even if the majority in the populations did not fully practice the ideal.

    That being said, I do believe God has used Christian civilization to keep antiChristianity at bay for centuries. Today I see Christian civilization collapsing. And I have little doubt the Antichrist will soon arise.

  12. #12

    Re: origin of the 7 sealed scroll?

    Just as Revelation states you will be in charge of your own stone if it be so. A solar system is a living structure as God designed. Just as Ezekiel tells us ( wheels ). Satan rules his own, Micheal rules His own, So do many others. As for creation have you read these are the generations of heaven and earth. This statement is open rather is not complete because earth is not finish yet. The end of earth is when God rest no more creations no more saved. Genesis 2. Not all around the throne are in Heaven. The tree of life is Christ, and them that grabbed hold of it was resurrected at the cross. The kingdoms of this world will be the kingdoms of Christ and his kingdom is not this world if so He would have sent His angels to fight but He did not. His kingdom is in Heaven He rules from Heaven. 777. Blessed are they that understand. Your welcome. Thank you.

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    Re: origin of the 7 sealed scroll?

    I didn't say otherwise. I'm just saying Jesus used the 4 cherubim to call forth the 4 horsemen. Dispensationalists tend to view everything beginning at ch. 4 and following as a time after the Rapture, involving the last 7 years of the age. I don't agree with Dispensationalism, nor with the Pretrib Rapture, but I think it's possible this latter section of the book has to do with the time of Antichrist, which I believe lasts 3.5 years
    I agree but when was that time? LOL

    Don't you believe in a future Roman Empire of sorts, under Antichrist? I guess not, if you are a preterist, and believe that Nero was the Antichrist?
    No I don't but I am not a preterist more like a partial one.

    I believe that Nero was just one of the heads of the beast in the spirit of antichrist as there are many antichrist.

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    Re: origin of the 7 sealed scroll?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Reese View Post
    Just as Revelation states you will be in charge of your own stone if it be so. A solar system is a living structure as God designed. Just as Ezekiel tells us ( wheels ). Satan rules his own, Micheal rules His own, So do many others. As for creation have you read these are the generations of heaven and earth. This statement is open rather is not complete because earth is not finish yet. The end of earth is when God rest no more creations no more saved. Genesis 2. Not all around the throne are in Heaven. The tree of life is Christ, and them that grabbed hold of it was resurrected at the cross. The kingdoms of this world will be the kingdoms of Christ and his kingdom is not this world if so He would have sent His angels to fight but He did not. His kingdom is in Heaven He rules from Heaven. 777. Blessed are they that understand. Your welcome. Thank you.
    So you sort of see everything through the lens of your avatar, as solar systems within solar systems? Like an atom is a solar system itself, with electrons swirling around a nucleus, so the earth has its own solar system around it, and heaven has its own solar system around it?

    I've always found the wheels within wheels in Eze 1 intriguing. The angels, or cherubim, moved one way, and the world's forces moved in lock step with them. And the angels moved in direct accordance with how the word of God moved them. Such was how the world was created, to operate in conformity with God's word. This also is how you and I should operate, in direct correspondence to God's word.

    It's true that those who take hold of the cross are moving in orbit around it, and benefit from it as their nucleus. We are all able to rise from the dead when we operate according to Christ's word.

    But the world does not conform to Christ's word, and so must perish, making way for a new heaven and a new earth. I do believe that those of us who operate on the principles of this new creation will find maybe not their own earth, but their own realm to be in charge of? I do believe it will be on the new earth, and will work in perfect harmony with all others who have thrown in their lot with Christ. And yes, I trust I understand!

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    Re: origin of the 7 sealed scroll?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I agree but when was that time? LOL



    No I don't but I am not a preterist more like a partial one.

    I believe that Nero was just one of the heads of the beast in the spirit of antichrist as there are many antichrist.
    Don't get my wrong. I wasn't criticizing you for being a partial preterist--just questioning if that was your position? A number of people here have thought I was a PP too, since my view of the Olivet Discourse is very similar, in some ways, to that. Thanks for your input!

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