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Thread: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

  1. #16
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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    I agree with you that Revelation presents a series of overlapping visions; not a single chronology 1-21 series of events. (yay we found an agreement point...been too many non-agreements lately )

    Where I think some folks error, in their approach to Revelation; is by forcing the term 'the tribuation' into it; and into any periods of it related to 7 years.

    Revelation never mentions a 7 year period.

    No NT passage, mentions a 7 year period.

    While Daniel mentions a 7 year period, Daniel's most literal reading would place it with the other 69 sevens of the 70 sevens prophecy; which btw, makes no mention of a tribuation period either; or of the 2nd Advent of the Lord.

    Revelation as you mention above, does mention 3.5 year as a period marker (1260 days, times-time-half-time, 42 weeks, etc...); however; nowhere does Revelation tell you to add them together to get a 7 year period; or two 3.5 year periods.

    There are a total of 5 3.5 year periods mentioned separately in Revelation; that if you added them, would be a 17.5 year period; again no instruction to do this either.

    Revelation also never mentions a tribulation period. It uses the word 5 times; two denote the general tribulations believers were experiencing at John's time; one as a retribution to Jezebel and those who fornicate after her during John's time, one denotes all overcomers of tribulation at the future time when God will wipe away all tears and they surround the living waters in the New Jerusalem.

    Nothing in Revelation says the word tribulation should be applied to any year period; or to any set of plagues (seals, trumps, thunders, bowls, winepress, etc)

    Nothing in Revelation defines lesser or greater tribulation periods by any time range or series of expanded events.

    just that people suffer tribulation; both believers and unbelievers.

    Also of note; only the wicked suffer wrath from God. The NT clearly distinguishes wrath (only targeted at the wicked) verse tribulation that can effect anyone at anytime.
    Agreed there is no 7 year tribulation mentioned anywhere in Revelation or is there any mention of a antichrist desecrating a future temple.

    I think that the great tribulation is only on the saints which started the day Stephen died and is still happening today which is totally different from God's wrath which is only on the unbelievers.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    I agree with you that Revelation presents a series of overlapping visions; not a single chronology 1-21 series of events. (yay we found an agreement point...been too many non-agreements lately )

    Where I think some folks error, in their approach to Revelation; is by forcing the term 'the tribuation' into it; and into any periods of it related to 7 years.

    Revelation never mentions a 7 year period.

    No NT passage, mentions a 7 year period.
    How about this, brother?: I agree!
    All the scenarios about a 7 year Tribulation originate from the 70 Weeks Prophecy of Daniel, in which the 70th Week is separated from the previous 69 Weeks by 2000 years! Pure nonsense (spoken in a loving sense).

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor
    While Daniel mentions a 7 year period, Daniel's most literal reading would place it with the other 69 sevens of the 70 sevens prophecy; which btw, makes no mention of a tribuation period either; or of the 2nd Advent of the Lord.
    I agree. It makes little sense to separate the 70th Week from a 70 Week Period. This would destroy the whole meaning of a "70 Week Period!" It would then be 2070 years--not a 490 year period!

    I'm not sure that the full 70th Week is completed, since Christ is cut off in the "midst of the Week?" But this matters less to me.

    And I agree that the "Great Tribulation," as it is often called, in reference to the Reign of Antichrist, is *not* in this passage! However, I have a different view of the Great Tribulation that is not currently popular in this circle, and that would define the Great Tribulation as the fate of the Jewish People in the present era. The Jewish People, the converting Christian remnant, as well as the unbelievers in Judaism, suffer the continual loss of their Kingdom until the 2nd Coming. Until "the times of the Gentiles" come to an end, this Great Tribulation continues, in my view. But again, this is not critical to the point.

    There is no 7 year Tribulation. It is rather called a 3.5 year period in which Antichrist reigns. If referred to as a tribulation at all, we might call it the "Final Tribulation?" In this time period Christians from all ethnicities suffer under Antichrist, and not just Jewish converts. And the Jewish People continue to suffer Gentile oppression until Christ's Return.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor
    Revelation as you mention above, does mention 3.5 year as a period marker (1260 days, times-time-half-time, 42 weeks, etc...); however; nowhere does Revelation tell you to add them together to get a 7 year period; or two 3.5 year periods.
    There are a total of 5 3.5 year periods mentioned separately in Revelation; that if you added them, would be a 17.5 year period; again no instruction to do this either.
    I believe 3.5 years are mentioned in 3 different ways--time, times and half a time, 42 months, and 1260 days--all referring to the same 3.5 years. At the end of Antichrist's reign there will be an undetermined length of time while Armageddon proceeds. See Rev 8.1; 10.4; and 11.14. The 3.5 years originate from the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign in Dan 7.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor
    Revelation also never mentions a tribulation period. It uses the word 5 times; two denote the general tribulations believers were experiencing at John's time; one as a retribution to Jezebel and those who fornicate after her during John's time, one denotes all overcomers of tribulation at the future time when God will wipe away all tears and they surround the living waters in the New Jerusalem.

    Nothing in Revelation says the word tribulation should be applied to any year period; or to any set of plagues (seals, trumps, thunders, bowls, winepress, etc)

    Nothing in Revelation defines lesser or greater tribulation periods by any time range or series of expanded events.

    just that people suffer tribulation; both believers and unbelievers.

    Also of note; only the wicked suffer wrath from God. The NT clearly distinguishes wrath (only targeted at the wicked) verse tribulation that can effect anyone at anytime.
    Many Pretribulationists refer to Antichrist's reign as the Great Tribulation to indicate not just the suffering of the Tribulation Saints, but also the Wrath of God, taking place over a period of 7 years. I believe that although God's wrath is always evident in limited ways in the present age, the Final Wrath only takes place at Armageddon.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Agreed there is no 7 year tribulation mentioned anywhere in Revelation or is there any mention of a antichrist desecrating a future temple.
    I think that the great tribulation is only on the saints which started the day Stephen died and is still happening today which is totally different from God's wrath which is only on the unbelievers.
    There is clearly a Great Tribulation mentioned in Rev 7 and also we are told of a period of 42 months when the beast will reign which will be a great Tribulation, and then Matthew 24 speaks of this great Tribulation.
    However I don't think there is any 7 year GT mentioned anywhere in the Bible either.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    There is clearly a Great Tribulation mentioned in Rev 7 and also we are told of a period of 42 months when the beast will reign which will be a great Tribulation, and then Matthew 24 speaks of this great Tribulation.
    However I don't think there is any 7 year GT mentioned anywhere in the Bible either.
    I didn't say that there is no great tribulation mentioned in Revelation I said that there is no 7 year tribulation. But to confirm with what I said the great tribulation mentioned in Revelation 7 is on the saints.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    I agree with you that Revelation presents a series of overlapping visions; not a single chronology 1-21 series of events. (yay we found an agreement point...been too many non-agreements lately )

    Where I think some folks error, in their approach to Revelation; is by forcing the term 'the tribuation' into it; and into any periods of it related to 7 years.

    Revelation never mentions a 7 year period.

    No NT passage, mentions a 7 year period.

    While Daniel mentions a 7 year period, Daniel's most literal reading would place it with the other 69 sevens of the 70 sevens prophecy; which btw, makes no mention of a tribuation period either; or of the 2nd Advent of the Lord.

    Revelation as you mention above, does mention 3.5 year as a period marker (1260 days, times-time-half-time, 42 weeks, etc...); however; nowhere does Revelation tell you to add them together to get a 7 year period; or two 3.5 year periods.

    There are a total of 5 3.5 year periods mentioned separately in Revelation; that if you added them, would be a 17.5 year period; again no instruction to do this either.

    Revelation also never mentions a tribulation period. It uses the word 5 times; two denote the general tribulations believers were experiencing at John's time; one as a retribution to Jezebel and those who fornicate after her during John's time, one denotes all overcomers of tribulation at the future time when God will wipe away all tears and they surround the living waters in the New Jerusalem.

    Nothing in Revelation says the word tribulation should be applied to any year period; or to any set of plagues (seals, trumps, thunders, bowls, winepress, etc)

    Nothing in Revelation defines lesser or greater tribulation periods by any time range or series of expanded events.

    just that people suffer tribulation; both believers and unbelievers.

    Also of note; only the wicked suffer wrath from God. The NT clearly distinguishes wrath (only targeted at the wicked) verse tribulation that can effect anyone at anytime.
    I agree with this all. Yes I agree there's no 7 year tribulation, rather a repeated 3.5 year period in Revelation. Just that fact alone proves that Revelation is not a sequential book, but overlaps often.

    I'm not too into the semantics of the word tribulation/distress, I was just using commonly used terminology. Many associate the final 3.5 years with the phrase great tribulation , and it is this final 3.5 years that will contain a lot of distress for this world. So it's not entirely a misnomer.

    I agree that we will not experience wrath, my take on that is we will avoid that wrath on the day of the Lord through being raptured earlier on that day, but will need to endure that 3.5 year period first.

  6. #21
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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yea, I really like this, though I'm not really sure of anything at this point. Never thought of it before, because I've read dozens of interpretations, and all of them were likely based on the numbering system you refer to. And I agree, this numbering system of chapter and verse was not necessarily inspired.

    What I like personally is that if we see the 7 sealed scroll vision alone in isolation it does seem to make more sense. It takes us to the end by the 6th seal, as you suggest. The 7th seal is actually the end itself, with the half hour of silence indicating the unknown period of time for the day of Christ's Coming. No man is supposed to know the day or the hour.

    We also see this in the 7 thunders.

    Rev 10.4 And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down.”

    Like the 7 sealed scroll vision, the 7 trumpets vision take us to the end of the age, to Armageddon, by the 6th trumpet. And before the blowing of the 7th trumpet we have this mysterious "silence" obscuring when the end will precisely take place. Anyway, it's a thought?
    Interesting thought. I hadn't really analysed the silence before, previously seeing it as an actual prophetic event of silence after the second coming. But now I see what you mean, the 6 seals revealed dramatic events, but heaven curiously goes quiet with the 7th seal. Which is obviously when the scroll is now ready to be opened now all 7 seals are broken. But we are not told what's in the scroll. Curious that.

    So yes this could ironically match the other event in Rev 10 when information is sealed and not revealed.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I agree with this all. Yes I agree there's no 7 year tribulation, rather a repeated 3.5 year period in Revelation. Just that fact alone proves that Revelation is not a sequential book, but overlaps often.

    I'm not too into the semantics of the word tribulation/distress, I was just using commonly used terminology. Many associate the final 3.5 years with the phrase great tribulation , and it is this final 3.5 years that will contain a lot of distress for this world. So it's not entirely a misnomer.

    I agree that we will not experience wrath, my take on that is we will avoid that wrath on the day of the Lord through being raptured earlier on that day, but will need to endure that 3.5 year period first.
    The only thing I disagree with here, is the idea of God removing people from the planet to avoid wrath and plauges and tribulation.
    In all biblical precidence in the past, God preserves His people while remaining on the earth through the trial of their day; never removing them from the planet to protect them.

    Pretrib has a group ascension into Heaven in I Thess; when the scripture mentions only the Lord Descending, and we meeting Him on His way down. No mention of a Lordly u-turn back up into Heaven where he came from.
    Revelation makes no mention of any group ascension into Heaven, but mentions Christians believers found throughout it's chapters found on the Earth.
    I corinthians 15 mentions a time of 'the change', but it venues it as occurring at the 2nd Advent (15:23) when death is defeated (15:26 & 52).


    Biblically, only the pretrib rapture cows will be taken out.

    Deuteronomy 10:26 "Our cattle also shall go with us; there shall not an hoof be left behind"

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    The only thing I disagree with here, is the idea of God removing people from the planet to avoid wrath and plauges and tribulation.
    In all biblical precidence in the past, God preserves His people while remaining on the earth through the trial of their day; never removing them from the planet to protect them.

    Pretrib has a group ascension into Heaven in I Thess; when the scripture mentions only the Lord Descending, and we meeting Him on His way down. No mention of a Lordly u-turn back up into Heaven where he came from.
    Revelation makes no mention of any group ascension into Heaven, but mentions Christians believers found throughout it's chapters found on the Earth.
    I corinthians 15 mentions a time of 'the change', but it venues it as occurring at the 2nd Advent (15:23) when death is defeated (15:26 & 52).


    Biblically, only the pretrib rapture cows will be taken out.

    Deuteronomy 10:26 "Our cattle also shall go with us; there shall not an hoof be left behind"
    I'm trying to figure out what you disagree with, we are both post trib, and even you said earlier that " only the wicked suffer wrath". I believe we will go through the tribulation and be raptured just before the attacking armies reach Jerusalem on the day of the Lord. We will avoid that final war and earthquake and the wrath of God poured out on those attacking armies ( the winepress of wrath).

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I'm trying to figure out what you disagree with, we are both post trib, and even you said earlier that " only the wicked suffer wrath". I believe we will go through the tribulation and be raptured just before the attacking armies reach Jerusalem on the day of the Lord. We will avoid that final war and earthquake and the wrath of God poured out on those attacking armies ( the winepress of wrath).
    I disagree with the 'we will be rapture out' (gathering of believers to Christ at the 2nd Advent as He descends from heaven); being a removal from the planet to avoid God's wrath upon the wicked.

    Other passages seem to show we remain on the Earth and are changed at His return, as the earth itself is changed back into a new creation, with the curse removed.

    If you believe the gathering occurs as He is descending in wrath upon the wicked, then it is likely just semantics...all happens so fast by that point.

    I disagree with the opposing view that believes Revelation is a sequential chronology, with multiple comings of the Lord, multiple resurrections, multiple ripping asunder of the sky and sun and moon, multiple treadings of the winepress, all that stuff that gets forced to occur, if one interprets Revelation as a strict 1-21 sequential chronology.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    I disagree with the 'we will be rapture out' (gathering of believers to Christ at the 2nd Advent as He descends from heaven); being a removal from the planet to avoid God's wrath upon the wicked.

    Other passages seem to show we remain on the Earth and are changed at His return, as the earth itself is changed back into a new creation, with the curse removed.

    If you believe the gathering occurs as He is descending in wrath upon the wicked, then it is likely just semantics...all happens so fast by that point.

    I disagree with the opposing view that believes Revelation is a sequential chronology, with multiple comings of the Lord, multiple resurrections, multiple ripping asunder of the sky and sun and moon, multiple treadings of the winepress, all that stuff that gets forced to occur, if one interprets Revelation as a strict 1-21 sequential chronology.
    Ok I understand now. I personally believe we are raptured up for the feast, where we are presented to the Father ( time being a relative concept). Then we join the heavenly army later that day to come back and destroy those wicked armies. The whole day could be seen as the second coming even though many events occur.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I agree with this all. Yes I agree there's no 7 year tribulation, rather a repeated 3.5 year period in Revelation. Just that fact alone proves that Revelation is not a sequential book, but overlaps often.

    I'm not too into the semantics of the word tribulation/distress, I was just using commonly used terminology. Many associate the final 3.5 years with the phrase great tribulation , and it is this final 3.5 years that will contain a lot of distress for this world. So it's not entirely a misnomer.

    I agree that we will not experience wrath, my take on that is we will avoid that wrath on the day of the Lord through being raptured earlier on that day, but will need to endure that 3.5 year period first.
    The final "3.5 years" is stated as being 42 months of the beast's reign, and is clearly a time of Great Tribulation, as something happens which is stated in Rev 13:7
    Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,
    ...
    Rev 13:9* If anyone has an ear, let him hear:*
    Rev 13:10* If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

    The time of the beast is one when we need to hear what God is saying about this time. It is a time of endurance required.
    This matches:
    Rev 14:12* Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

    This is speaking of during the time of wrath. The CRUCIAL thing to understand is that the 7 vials are NOT the whole of the wrath:
    Rev 15:1* Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

    The period BEFORE the vials is also part of the wrath of God.
    There is NO escape from wrath, rather like Israel when they were in Egypt, the wrath of God is DIRECTED on those who EITHER are NOT sealed with God's seal, OR take the Mark of the Beast:
    Rev 9:4* They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.*

    Rev 16:2* So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

    When we are raptured we do NOT go up to the Father. We go and meet Jesus in the clouds and then we are with Him.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The final "3.5 years" is stated as being 42 months of the beast's reign, and is clearly a time of Great Tribulation, as something happens which is stated in Rev 13:7
    Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,
    ...
    Rev 13:9* If anyone has an ear, let him hear:*
    Rev 13:10* If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

    The time of the beast is one when we need to hear what God is saying about this time. It is a time of endurance required.
    This matches:
    Rev 14:12* Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

    This is speaking of during the time of wrath. The CRUCIAL thing to understand is that the 7 vials are NOT the whole of the wrath:
    Rev 15:1* Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

    The period BEFORE the vials is also part of the wrath of God.
    There is NO escape from wrath, rather like Israel when they were in Egypt, the wrath of God is DIRECTED on those who EITHER are NOT sealed with God's seal, OR take the Mark of the Beast:
    Rev 9:4* They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.*

    Rev 16:2* So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

    When we are raptured we do NOT go up to the Father. We go and meet Jesus in the clouds and then we are with Him.
    Agreed, I like what you say about enduring the tribulation, yet the wrath is DIRECTED on others.

    What do you think about the two harvests of Rev 14, I believe we endure until the second coming, and then are harvested/raptured just before the harvest/winepress of wrath.

    When we are raptured we do NOT go up to the Father. We go and meet Jesus in the clouds and then we are with Him.
    Do you believe that we remain in the clouds, floating around with harps? Or maybe we go to the heavenly Jerusalem or come back down to earth? What is your view of what happens after we meet Jesus in the clouds?

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Agreed, I like what you say about enduring the tribulation, yet the wrath is DIRECTED on others.
    What do you think about the two harvests of Rev 14, I believe we endure until the second coming, and then are harvested/raptured just before the harvest/winepress of wrath.
    I think the timing of this is about the Rapture preceding the final battle of Rev 19.

    Do you believe that we remain in the clouds, floating around with harps? Or maybe we go to the heavenly Jerusalem or come back down to earth? What is your view of what happens after we meet Jesus in the clouds?
    We meet Jesus and we meet ALL the fellowship of Believers (who are IN Christ) from all ages.
    I see it like an airplane journey.
    There is the take off - which is when we are transformed.
    Then the in-flight - which is meeting Him and our brothers (and sisters).
    Then the landing - where He gets off first to clear the path for us to our new home.

    So we go up to the clouds and then back down to earth.
    I see Rev 21 as describing that return to earth:
    Rev 21:2* And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Interesting thought. I hadn't really analysed the silence before, previously seeing it as an actual prophetic event of silence after the second coming. But now I see what you mean, the 6 seals revealed dramatic events, but heaven curiously goes quiet with the 7th seal. Which is obviously when the scroll is now ready to be opened now all 7 seals are broken. But we are not told what's in the scroll. Curious that.

    So yes this could ironically match the other event in Rev 10 when information is sealed and not revealed.
    Exactly. But my thought was that since the 6th seal and the 6th trumpet take us up to the end of the age, and to Christ's Coming, that may be why there is this mystery associated with both the 7th seal and the 7th trumpet. The Coming of Christ is supposed to be a day of mystery, shrouded in secrecy by the Father himself. "That day and hour you don't know."

    And so, we don't know what the 7 thunders said. And we don't know what happens during the silence in heaven. And we are only told that the 7th trumpet is "coming soon" (Rev 11.14). That appears to be an indeterminate time?

    My theory is that although we know the exact number of days Antichrist will exercise his Reign of Terror, we don't know the historic development of the world towards Armageddon, which will climax on an unknown day.

    In other words, Antichrist may lose his grip on the world, and the world may begin to revolt against his world leadership, leading to Armageddon. This development may take place over an extended period of time, as armies are gathered for that war?

    What we have then is the following scenario:
    1) Antichrist's Reign of Terror for 1260 days.
    2) The 2 Witnesses are killed and lie in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 more days.
    3) Antichrist's rule on earth is rejected by opposing nations, and gradually there is preparation for Armageddon, which will take place over an unknown length of time.
    4) Christ returns on an as yet unknown day and hour, in the midst of a nuclear war.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    The only thing I disagree with here, is the idea of God removing people from the planet to avoid wrath and plauges and tribulation.
    In all biblical precidence in the past, God preserves His people while remaining on the earth through the trial of their day; never removing them from the planet to protect them.

    Pretrib has a group ascension into Heaven in I Thess; when the scripture mentions only the Lord Descending, and we meeting Him on His way down. No mention of a Lordly u-turn back up into Heaven where he came from.
    Revelation makes no mention of any group ascension into Heaven, but mentions Christians believers found throughout it's chapters found on the Earth.
    I corinthians 15 mentions a time of 'the change', but it venues it as occurring at the 2nd Advent (15:23) when death is defeated (15:26 & 52).


    Biblically, only the pretrib rapture cows will be taken out.

    Deuteronomy 10:26 "Our cattle also shall go with us; there shall not an hoof be left behind"
    Makes sense. I have some Mid Trib and Pre Wrath friends, who believe God will give escape to the Church after we have gone through at least some of the Antichrist's persecution. Their aim seems to be to excuse Christians from a time when actual wrath is poured out from God against the planet. It's thought Christians shouldn't be here during that time, since "God has not called us to wrath."

    However, I agree with you. Even though Christians do go through persecutions, and through times of wrath, such as when Jeremiah went through the time of Israel's wrath, that doesn't mean we're actually the target of that wrath. When Christ died for our sins, he experienced wrath against *others!*

    So I like this idea that we don't have to go up, to escape, and make a U-turn! In fact, the resurrection of the departed saints already live with God in heaven, in their disembodied spirits. They aren't escaping the earth anyway--why should the living saints escape either, since they are the apparent survivors of Armageddon?

    I do see surviving Christians as being caught up to heaven "in a moment." And so, it isn't so much a U turn as an instantaneous appearing in heaven with Christ, now glorified, and returning with him to earth. It's more an act of glorification than a trip! How, in other words, can a "twinkle of an eye" qualify as a "journey to heaven?"

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