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Thread: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

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    Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Some claim Revelation unfolds in sequence, each chapter being fulfilled sequentially. They therefore think that the 7 seals occur before the 7 trumpets and before the 7 bowls of wrath. On the contrary I shall show that Revelation contains multiple visions about the Final Tribulation and the Second Coming and Day of the Lord. We can then revisit the 7 seals and the 7 trumpets.

    Rev 1 to Rev 3 is a vision of Jesus. Rev 1:7 mentions the second coming. Then Jesus tells John about the 7 churches, but keeps mentioning the second coming here and there.

    Rev 4/5 scene in heaven preceding Rev 6/7 the 7 seals (will chat about this later)

    Rev 8/9/10/11 are about the 7 trumpets (will chat about this later)

    Rev 12 contains 3.5 years of Satans wrath - THE FINAL TRIBULATION

    Rev 13 contains 3.5 years of the Beast's reign - THE FINAL TRIBULATION

    Rev 14:9-12 is about the second coming. Then the winepress of wrath is mentioned in v17-20 outside Jerusalem. This winepress of wrath is mentioned in Rev 19:15 in second coming context. It is also mentioned in Joel 3, just outside Jerusalem in Jehosaphat, in Day of The Lord context. (SECOND COMING)

    Rev 15/16 are about the bowls of wrath, referring to the final battle and final great earthquake (TRIBULATION AND SECOND COMING)

    Rev 17/18 are about symbolic Babylon, but even these chapters mention the final beast and the ten horns, showing that the destruction of Babylon occurs during the beast's reign. (TRIBULATION CONTEXT)

    Rev 19 is about the second coming (SECOND COMING)

    In conclusion then, the book of Revelation does not unfold consecutively as some claim, but contains multiple visions about the tribulation and the second coming. It is often fulfilled SIMULTANEOUSLY and not consecutively, containing various visions about the events before the second coming.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    With the opening post as background, I propose that the 7 seals (Rev 4-7) and the 7 trumpets (Rev 8-11) are two separate visions about the events leading up to, and including the second coming:

    SECOND COMING:
    Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
    Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”


    SECOND COMING:
    Rev 11:14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.
    15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
    “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Posted this in the wrong forum, will repost in end-times. Please chat there.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    With the opening post as background, I propose that the 7 seals (Rev 4-7) and the 7 trumpets (Rev 8-11) are two separate visions about the events leading up to, and including the second coming:

    SECOND COMING:
    Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
    Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”


    SECOND COMING:
    Rev 11:14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.
    15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
    “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”
    My brother mentioned today the differences in the gospel accounts, indicating they are not always chronological. For example, in John we have the money changers cleared from the temple at the beginning of the book, whereas in the synoptic gospels this takes place later in the ministry of Jesus.

    I believe that even though there is often a chronology, along with the narrative, in the books of the Bible, the emphasis is more on truth than on chronology. So the stories obtain more significance in the way they are explained than in the order in which they are given. Jeremiah's visions are all over the place. The visions in Revelation are non-chronological and often over-lapping. You're right. Revelation is non-chronological.

    However, I don't usually separate the 7 trumpets from the vision of the 7 sealed scroll. And that's because the 7 trumpets issue out of the 7th seal of the scroll. In other words, it's all part of the same vision.

    But if you want to say that the 7 trumpets have their own chronology, that is likely true. Same vision, but separate chronologies. The only sequence is in the way the visions are given, in the particular order they are given. But this order is not equal to a chronological sequence. It's just the way the story is being told. It's a symbolic way of explaining what will happen. And symbols often cannot have a chronology. They are symbols!

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    My brother mentioned today the differences in the gospel accounts, indicating they are not always chronological. For example, in John we have the money changers cleared from the temple at the beginning of the book, whereas in the synoptic gospels this takes place later in the ministry of Jesus.

    I believe that even though there is often a chronology, along with the narrative, in the books of the Bible, the emphasis is more on truth than on chronology. So the stories obtain more significance in the way they are explained than in the order in which they are given. Jeremiah's visions are all over the place. The visions in Revelation are non-chronological and often over-lapping. You're right. Revelation is non-chronological.

    However, I don't usually separate the 7 trumpets from the vision of the 7 sealed scroll. And that's because the 7 trumpets issue out of the 7th seal of the scroll. In other words, it's all part of the same vision.

    But if you want to say that the 7 trumpets have their own chronology, that is likely true. Same vision, but separate chronologies. The only sequence is in the way the visions are given, in the particular order they are given. But this order is not equal to a chronological sequence. It's just the way the story is being told. It's a symbolic way of explaining what will happen. And symbols often cannot have a chronology. They are symbols!
    Actually your brother seems to be wrong.
    Joh 2:16* And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father's house a house of trade.”*
    Joh 2:17* His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for your house will consume me.”*
    Joh 2:18* So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?”*
    Joh 2:19* Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”*
    Joh 2:20* The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?”

    When do you have the 46 years start, and therefore what year is this?
    If Herod knocked down the old temple in 19 BC and then built the new one by 17 BC, then this would put the 46 year (depending on how you count the start) between 28 AD and 30 AD.
    Now if you have Jesus start His ministry in 27 AD (as you do) then it is possible for this event to be in the final week of His life. However if you count the 46 years from when Herod started the
    rebuilding, then you would put this event at the start of His ministry, which means John has it in chronological order.

    John simply makes no mention of the events during the final week after Jesus enters Jerusalem on the 10th Abib (Nisan) until the 14th Abib for Passover.

    The most chronological of the gospels are those of John and Mark.
    Luke is topical following a rough chronology.
    Matthew seems to be another kind of topical, again loosely following the chronology.

    Revelation has a backbone of chronology with visions explaining things around it. This in many ways is what we have in Luke, with a basic chronology but with side points based upon the topic that comes out from what happens.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    However, I don't usually separate the 7 trumpets from the vision of the 7 sealed scroll. And that's because the 7 trumpets issue out of the 7th seal of the scroll. In other words, it's all part of the same vision.
    There were two threads floating around with the same name (my fault) and now the one with our previous discussion has disappeared. Thanks for continuing the chat, I had forgotten what had transpired.

    There is nothing in the wording that forces the 7th seal (half an hour silence) to have anything whatsoever to do with the 7 trumpets. People may deny that a vision can end with silence, I don't see why not, it signifies completion and silencing of enemies.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Revelation has a backbone of chronology with visions explaining things around it. This in many ways is what we have in Luke, with a basic chronology but with side points based upon the topic that comes out from what happens.
    As per the opening post there is quite clearly no "backbone of chronology" whatsoever. Throughout Revelation there are a number of visions about the period prior to the second coming, and the second coming. The opening post establishes that.

    There is no reason why the 7 seals and the 7 trumpets shouldn't conform to that. Of course WITHIN the 3 sequences of seven there is a chronology of 1-7. The numbering system makes that sequence obvious.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually your brother seems to be wrong.
    Joh 2:16* And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father's house a house of trade.”*
    Joh 2:17* His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for your house will consume me.”*
    Joh 2:18* So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?”*
    Joh 2:19* Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”*
    Joh 2:20* The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?”

    When do you have the 46 years start, and therefore what year is this?
    If Herod knocked down the old temple in 19 BC and then built the new one by 17 BC, then this would put the 46 year (depending on how you count the start) between 28 AD and 30 AD.
    Now if you have Jesus start His ministry in 27 AD (as you do) then it is possible for this event to be in the final week of His life. However if you count the 46 years from when Herod started the
    rebuilding, then you would put this event at the start of His ministry, which means John has it in chronological order.

    John simply makes no mention of the events during the final week after Jesus enters Jerusalem on the 10th Abib (Nisan) until the 14th Abib for Passover.

    The most chronological of the gospels are those of John and Mark.
    Luke is topical following a rough chronology.
    Matthew seems to be another kind of topical, again loosely following the chronology.

    Revelation has a backbone of chronology with visions explaining things around it. This in many ways is what we have in Luke, with a basic chronology but with side points based upon the topic that comes out from what happens.
    Yea, you seem to have a point. My brother and I agreed that there may be other explanations, such as a repeat of the same event, etc. But in this case, if you go from 20 BC to 46 years later, you have 26 AD, which for me is the beginning of Jesus' ministry. Good point!!

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    As per the opening post there is quite clearly no "backbone of chronology" whatsoever. Throughout Revelation there are a number of visions about the period prior to the second coming, and the second coming. The opening post establishes that.

    There is no reason why the 7 seals and the 7 trumpets shouldn't conform to that. Of course WITHIN the 3 sequences of seven there is a chronology of 1-7. The numbering system makes that sequence obvious.
    Sorry but your opening post does not establish that at all. It posits something but without actually demonstrating it.
    As the seals, trumpets and vials are ALL stated in chronological order AND as they form the backbone so of course they are not conforming to the bits which are actually attached to this backbone.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    There were two threads floating around with the same name (my fault) and now the one with our previous discussion has disappeared. Thanks for continuing the chat, I had forgotten what had transpired.

    There is nothing in the wording that forces the 7th seal (half an hour silence) to have anything whatsoever to do with the 7 trumpets. People may deny that a vision can end with silence, I don't see why not, it signifies completion and silencing of enemies.
    I didn't disagree that a vision can end in silence, however in the case of the 7th seal we are told what happens DURING the silence AND we are told how the silence ends.

    This is beside the two issues that the trumpets CANNOT mirror the seals AND that each case the seals and trumpets are chronological.
    Alongside this is the weird idea that after Jesus has come to earth to reign, then He has to go to heaven to break the 7th seal afterwards.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    There were two threads floating around with the same name (my fault) and now the one with our previous discussion has disappeared. Thanks for continuing the chat, I had forgotten what had transpired.

    There is nothing in the wording that forces the 7th seal (half an hour silence) to have anything whatsoever to do with the 7 trumpets. People may deny that a vision can end with silence, I don't see why not, it signifies completion and silencing of enemies.
    Yea, I noticed your thread was gone, along with the comments that were made. But inasmuch as it's a real good question, I wanted to get it back for more considerations. Thanks for your perseverance!

    I never looked at things the way you're describing it. I'm undecided, but at least I'm looking at the possibility that there may be a disconnect between the 7th seal and the 7 trumpets. Never looked at it that way before!

    Rev 8.1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
    2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.


    I'm not sure how to determine that there is no link between the 7th seal and the 7 trumpets, but you could be right! It makes me want to look anew at the purpose of the period of silence. If the 7th seal is the end of the vision of the scroll, then the silence in heaven could reflect a pause between visions, indicating an indeterminate period of time that no one may share before the last trumpet blows?

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yea, I noticed your thread was gone, along with the comments that were made. But inasmuch as it's a real good question, I wanted to get it back for more considerations. Thanks for your perseverance!

    I never looked at things the way you're describing it. I'm undecided, but at least I'm looking at the possibility that there may be a disconnect between the 7th seal and the 7 trumpets. Never looked at it that way before!

    Rev 8.1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
    2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.


    I'm not sure how to determine that there is no link between the 7th seal and the 7 trumpets, but you could be right! It makes me want to look anew at the purpose of the period of silence. If the 7th seal is the end of the vision of the scroll, then the silence in heaven could reflect a pause between visions, indicating an indeterminate period of time that no one may share before the last trumpet blows?
    The chapter break makes it confusing and I am sure we all know that they were added afterwards, and not always at good places!
    If I could re-number the verses, I would move 8:1 to 7:18 to be with the end of the seals vision (ch 4-7). this in itself gves a whole new picture.

    The phrase "And I saw" is used often in Revelation, within visions, and to start visions. In this case I believe it is there to start a new vision in 8:2.

    Context itself should also assist, because truly there are fewer clearer descriptions of the second coming and day of wrath than the 6th seal. How many times will every mountain move, how many huge earthquakes , how many times will the stars fall to earth , and Jesus be seen, and the kings run and hide. The concept that this all occurs earlier is honestly a little ridiculous. When the lamb appears to kings and people's of this world, that will undoubtedly be the end of the world. Game Over!

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The chapter break makes it confusing and I am sure we all know that they were added afterwards, and not always at good places!
    If I could re-number the verses, I would move 8:1 to 7:18 to be with the end of the seals vision (ch 4-7). this in itself gves a whole new picture.

    The phrase "And I saw" is used often in Revelation, within visions, and to start visions. In this case I believe it is there to start a new vision.

    Context itself should also assist, because truly there are fewer clearer descriptions of the second coming and day of wrath than the 6th seal. How many times will every mountain move, how many huge earthquakes , how many times will the stars fall to earth , and Jesus be seen, and the kings run and hide. The concept that this all occurs earlier is honestly a little ridiculous, when the lamb appears to kings and people's of this world, that will undoubtedly be the end of the world. Game Over!
    Actually when we compare the 6th seal with the ACTUAL event we see the differences where the 6th seal is a LESSER event.

    So for example in the 6th seal the mountains are moved, but in the Day the mountains are removed.
    For the 6th seal there is a great earthquake (we have a number of those in Revelation) but on the Day is an earthquake greater than any ever before.

    Really you are not basing it on CONTEXT but on PRETEXT. Your understanding of the 6th seal is not based on the verses and explanation around it but on your reading elsewhere of what the Day will be like.
    You have a further problem because the 6th seal is described in Rev 6, but Rev 7 doesn't speak of the seals at all, but rather speaks of the trumpets. The 144k who need to be sealed BEFORE the sea or land is harmed (which happens with the first trumpet). The explanation of the Great Tribulation which is what is seen AFTER Jesus returns.

    The 7th seal is not only the half hour silence, but can also be said to be the 7 trumpets.
    The 7th trumpet is not only the declaration about Jesus, but can also be said to be the 7 vials.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The chapter break makes it confusing and I am sure we all know that they were added afterwards, and not always at good places!
    If I could re-number the verses, I would move 8:1 to 7:18 to be with the end of the seals vision (ch 4-7). this in itself gves a whole new picture.

    The phrase "And I saw" is used often in Revelation, within visions, and to start visions. In this case I believe it is there to start a new vision in 8:2.

    Context itself should also assist, because truly there are fewer clearer descriptions of the second coming and day of wrath than the 6th seal. How many times will every mountain move, how many huge earthquakes , how many times will the stars fall to earth , and Jesus be seen, and the kings run and hide. The concept that this all occurs earlier is honestly a little ridiculous. When the lamb appears to kings and people's of this world, that will undoubtedly be the end of the world. Game Over!
    Yea, I really like this, though I'm not really sure of anything at this point. Never thought of it before, because I've read dozens of interpretations, and all of them were likely based on the numbering system you refer to. And I agree, this numbering system of chapter and verse was not necessarily inspired.

    What I like personally is that if we see the 7 sealed scroll vision alone in isolation it does seem to make more sense. It takes us to the end by the 6th seal, as you suggest. The 7th seal is actually the end itself, with the half hour of silence indicating the unknown period of time for the day of Christ's Coming. No man is supposed to know the day or the hour.

    We also see this in the 7 thunders.

    Rev 10.4 And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down.”

    Like the 7 sealed scroll vision, the 7 trumpets vision take us to the end of the age, to Armageddon, by the 6th trumpet. And before the blowing of the 7th trumpet we have this mysterious "silence" obscuring when the end will precisely take place. Anyway, it's a thought?

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Some claim Revelation unfolds in sequence, each chapter being fulfilled sequentially. They therefore think that the 7 seals occur before the 7 trumpets and before the 7 bowls of wrath. On the contrary I shall show that Revelation contains multiple visions about the Final Tribulation and the Second Coming and Day of the Lord. We can then revisit the 7 seals and the 7 trumpets.

    Rev 1 to Rev 3 is a vision of Jesus. Rev 1:7 mentions the second coming. Then Jesus tells John about the 7 churches, but keeps mentioning the second coming here and there.

    Rev 4/5 scene in heaven preceding Rev 6/7 the 7 seals (will chat about this later)

    Rev 8/9/10/11 are about the 7 trumpets (will chat about this later)

    Rev 12 contains 3.5 years of Satans wrath - THE FINAL TRIBULATION

    Rev 13 contains 3.5 years of the Beast's reign - THE FINAL TRIBULATION

    Rev 14:9-12 is about the second coming. Then the winepress of wrath is mentioned in v17-20 outside Jerusalem. This winepress of wrath is mentioned in Rev 19:15 in second coming context. It is also mentioned in Joel 3, just outside Jerusalem in Jehosaphat, in Day of The Lord context. (SECOND COMING)

    Rev 15/16 are about the bowls of wrath, referring to the final battle and final great earthquake (TRIBULATION AND SECOND COMING)

    Rev 17/18 are about symbolic Babylon, but even these chapters mention the final beast and the ten horns, showing that the destruction of Babylon occurs during the beast's reign. (TRIBULATION CONTEXT)

    Rev 19 is about the second coming (SECOND COMING)

    In conclusion then, the book of Revelation does not unfold consecutively as some claim, but contains multiple visions about the tribulation and the second coming. It is often fulfilled SIMULTANEOUSLY and not consecutively, containing various visions about the events before the second coming.
    I agree with you that Revelation presents a series of overlapping visions; not a single chronology 1-21 series of events. (yay we found an agreement point...been too many non-agreements lately )

    Where I think some folks error, in their approach to Revelation; is by forcing the term 'the tribuation' into it; and into any periods of it related to 7 years.

    Revelation never mentions a 7 year period.

    No NT passage, mentions a 7 year period.

    While Daniel mentions a 7 year period, Daniel's most literal reading would place it with the other 69 sevens of the 70 sevens prophecy; which btw, makes no mention of a tribuation period either; or of the 2nd Advent of the Lord.

    Revelation as you mention above, does mention 3.5 year as a period marker (1260 days, times-time-half-time, 42 weeks, etc...); however; nowhere does Revelation tell you to add them together to get a 7 year period; or two 3.5 year periods.

    There are a total of 5 3.5 year periods mentioned separately in Revelation; that if you added them, would be a 17.5 year period; again no instruction to do this either.

    Revelation also never mentions a tribulation period. It uses the word 5 times; two denote the general tribulations believers were experiencing at John's time; one as a retribution to Jezebel and those who fornicate after her during John's time, one denotes all overcomers of tribulation at the future time when God will wipe away all tears and they surround the living waters in the New Jerusalem.

    Nothing in Revelation says the word tribulation should be applied to any year period; or to any set of plagues (seals, trumps, thunders, bowls, winepress, etc)

    Nothing in Revelation defines lesser or greater tribulation periods by any time range or series of expanded events.

    just that people suffer tribulation; both believers and unbelievers.

    Also of note; only the wicked suffer wrath from God. The NT clearly distinguishes wrath (only targeted at the wicked) verse tribulation that can effect anyone at anytime.

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