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Thread: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

  1. #31
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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Exactly. But my thought was that since the 6th seal and the 6th trumpet take us up to the end of the age, and to Christ's Coming, that may be why there is this mystery associated with both the 7th seal and the 7th trumpet. The Coming of Christ is supposed to be a day of mystery, shrouded in secrecy by the Father himself. "That day and hour you don't know."

    And so, we don't know what the 7 thunders said. And we don't know what happens during the silence in heaven. And we are only told that the 7th trumpet is "coming soon" (Rev 11.14). That appears to be an indeterminate time?

    My theory is that although we know the exact number of days Antichrist will exercise his Reign of Terror, we don't know the historic development of the world towards Armageddon, which will climax on an unknown day.

    In other words, Antichrist may lose his grip on the world, and the world may begin to revolt against his world leadership, leading to Armageddon. This development may take place over an extended period of time, as armies are gathered for that war?

    What we have then is the following scenario:
    1) Antichrist's Reign of Terror for 1260 days.
    2) The 2 Witnesses are killed and lie in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 more days.
    3) Antichrist's rule on earth is rejected by opposing nations, and gradually there is preparation for Armageddon, which will take place over an unknown length of time.
    4) Christ returns on an as yet unknown day and hour, in the midst of a nuclear war.
    I like most of what you say, except I'm not in agreement with the indeterminate time. In my eyes that time is now, because only the Father knows when the Gospel mandate has been achieved.

    We have this sudden victory of the Gospel in Rev 12. The fullness of the nations in Hebrews 11. My view of Matt 24 is the Gospel reaches all nations then the great tribulation starts (we don't need to debate that, I'm just building a case for other readers too).

    Everything speaks of an indeterminate church age, then a great spiritual victory of the church that ironically manifests on earth as 3.5 years of persecution under the antichrist. When we are told that only the Father knows the day or the hour, it's because the time period is X + 3.5 years = second coming. Only God knows X, but as soon as He decides every Gentile nation has heard, then the definite period will kick in.

  2. #32
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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I like most of what you say, except I'm not in agreement with the indeterminate time. In my eyes that time is now, because only the Father knows when the Gospel mandate has been achieved.

    We have this sudden victory of the Gospel in Rev 12. The fullness of the nations in Hebrews 11. My view of Matt 24 is the Gospel reaches all nations then the great tribulation starts (we don't need to debate that, I'm just building a case for other readers too).

    Everything speaks of an indeterminate church age, then a great spiritual victory of the church that ironically manifests on earth as 3.5 years of persecution under the antichrist. When we are told that only the Father knows the day or the hour, it's because the time period is X + 3.5 years = second coming. Only God knows X, but as soon as He decides every Gentile nation has heard, then the definite period will kick in.
    We're not far apart on some of this--maybe even in agreement.

    We don't know the times and the seasons of the Church Age--that is clear. However, the saints have been predicting the Sabbath Millennial prognostication for many centuries now. They all seemed to know we would still be around, pre-Millennium, for 6000 years of recorded history.

    We definitely agree on the formula X + 3.5 = Christ's Coming. Thanks!

  3. #33
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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    I agree with you that Revelation presents a series of overlapping visions; not a single chronology 1-21 series of events. (yay we found an agreement point...been too many non-agreements lately )

    Where I think some folks error, in their approach to Revelation; is by forcing the term 'the tribuation' into it; and into any periods of it related to 7 years.

    Revelation never mentions a 7 year period.

    No NT passage, mentions a 7 year period.

    While Daniel mentions a 7 year period, Daniel's most literal reading would place it with the other 69 sevens of the 70 sevens prophecy; which btw, makes no mention of a tribuation period either; or of the 2nd Advent of the Lord.

    Revelation as you mention above, does mention 3.5 year as a period marker (1260 days, times-time-half-time, 42 weeks, etc...); however; nowhere does Revelation tell you to add them together to get a 7 year period; or two 3.5 year periods.

    There are a total of 5 3.5 year periods mentioned separately in Revelation; that if you added them, would be a 17.5 year period; again no instruction to do this either.

    Revelation also never mentions a tribulation period. It uses the word 5 times; two denote the general tribulations believers were experiencing at John's time; one as a retribution to Jezebel and those who fornicate after her during John's time, one denotes all overcomers of tribulation at the future time when God will wipe away all tears and they surround the living waters in the New Jerusalem.

    Nothing in Revelation says the word tribulation should be applied to any year period; or to any set of plagues (seals, trumps, thunders, bowls, winepress, etc)

    Nothing in Revelation defines lesser or greater tribulation periods by any time range or series of expanded events.

    just that people suffer tribulation; both believers and unbelievers.

    Also of note; only the wicked suffer wrath from God. The NT clearly distinguishes wrath (only targeted at the wicked) verse tribulation that can effect anyone at anytime.
    Jesus specifically told us we would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION, so the 2000 some odd year Church Age is Tribulation, it is a greater length of time than the 70th week which will be a 7 year period. Of course there will be a Peace Agreement just as Daniel 9 says, and there will be a 3.5 year period of the Greatest Ever Troubles. But all years until Jesus returns will be tribulation, that comes straight from Jesus' mouth, so I think that is why some people confuse.

    1.) We have a 2000 some of Year Tribulation Church Age.

    2.) We have a 7 year period of the 70th week, its still tribulation in that Jesus has not returned !!

    3.) We have a 3.5 year period of Gods Wrath called the Day of the Lord.

  4. #34
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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Some claim Revelation unfolds in sequence, each chapter being fulfilled sequentially. They therefore think that the 7 seals occur before the 7 trumpets and before the 7 bowls of wrath. On the contrary I shall show that Revelation contains multiple visions about the Final Tribulation and the Second Coming and Day of the Lord. We can then revisit the 7 seals and the 7 trumpets.

    Rev 1 to Rev 3 is a vision of Jesus. Rev 1:7 mentions the second coming. Then Jesus tells John about the 7 churches, but keeps mentioning the second coming here and there.

    Rev 4/5 scene in heaven preceding Rev 6/7 the 7 seals (will chat about this later)

    Rev 8/9/10/11 are about the 7 trumpets (will chat about this later)

    Rev 12 contains 3.5 years of Satans wrath - THE FINAL TRIBULATION

    Rev 13 contains 3.5 years of the Beast's reign - THE FINAL TRIBULATION

    Rev 14:9-12 is about the second coming. Then the winepress of wrath is mentioned in v17-20 outside Jerusalem. This winepress of wrath is mentioned in Rev 19:15 in second coming context. It is also mentioned in Joel 3, just outside Jerusalem in Jehosaphat, in Day of The Lord context. (SECOND COMING)

    Rev 15/16 are about the bowls of wrath, referring to the final battle and final great earthquake (TRIBULATION AND SECOND COMING)

    Rev 17/18 are about symbolic Babylon, but even these chapters mention the final beast and the ten horns, showing that the destruction of Babylon occurs during the beast's reign. (TRIBULATION CONTEXT)

    Rev 19 is about the second coming (SECOND COMING)

    In conclusion then, the book of Revelation does not unfold consecutively as some claim, but contains multiple visions about the tribulation and the second coming. It is often fulfilled SIMULTANEOUSLY and not consecutively, containing various visions about the events before the second coming.
    You are beginning to see it, but the Seals, Trumpets etc. etc don't overlap, all the Trumpets come from the Seals and the 7 Vials ARE the 3rd Woe. I just did a blog on this as per the timing of Revelation and decoding the book of Revelation.

    Revelation Decoded: Explained in "simple form" with the Chronological Order Explained.

    Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter: {Jesus Glorified, the Seven Churches and the coming Tribulation Events}

    In verse one we are told that God gave Jesus these things to show unto his servants, "things which must SHORTLY come to pass" !! This verse confuses many right off the bat, they say all Revelation must therefore be in the past, and all the Seals have been opened. Have no fear, they just needed to study more, they are reading a bad translation. The word "SHORTLY" has two Greek words behind it in Strong's Concordance, the words are {EN} and {TACHOS}, the word EN means a fixed time and place [in the future]. The word TACHOS means speedily or in haste {it is where we get the English word tachometer from}. So in essence Jesus is saying at a predetermined point in time {which only the Father knows} I will come in haste, or speedily, when I return at the Second Coming.

    John saw Jesus in all his Glory, and described it as such, thus Jesus was the things which he had seen. The things which are of course were the Seven Churches. The things that will be hereafter are of course the coming Tribulation after the Rapture of the Church, in chapters 4-22.

    Rev. 1 the Glorious Christ Revealed for all to see.

    Rev. 2 and 3, the Seven Churches are given things they are doing properly, and also told about things they need to work on, they are a "Type" of the Church Age" in general.

    Rev. 4 and 5 is the Raptured Church in Heaven, we see the Elders of the Church in Heaven wearing White. The 24 Elders are the Church. The reasons are many, I will list them below:

    Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

    The Rewards promised to the Seven Churches are given unto the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4 and 4:10.

    * A Crown - ( Rev. 2:10, 3:11, 4:4 and 4:10 )

    * A Throne - ( Rev. 3:21 and 4:4 )

    * A White Robe - ( Rev. 3:4-5 and Rev. 4:4 )

    As per the 24 Elders meaning ? or why 24 Elders !! Well this fits 1 Chronicles 24:7-19 where we are told there are 24 orders of priests.

    So the Church is in Heaven before the Seals are opened, thus the Rapture happens before the Seals are opened !! John saw them in Rev. chapters 4 and 5, the Elders are not in Heaven having marred the Lamb without the Church also being there, there is just ONE MARRIAGE !! 

    So the Church is shown in heaven, raptured before the Seals have been broken in Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9 where they sing a song of the Redeemed. Angels don't need to be redeemed !!

    In Rev. 6 we see the Seals {Wrath of the Lamb} being opened. The Anti-Christ is allowed to go forth Conquering. He takes Peace from the earth {Dan. 8:25, 9:27, 11:40-43} as the Red horse, his wars bring famine as the Black horse and of course he brings death and the grave via war and sickness thus the Pale Green horse. These deaths are of course many, but not the Raptured Church, we are in Heaven, these are the deaths of all that refuse to worship this man as God, the Muslims are the vast majority of these deaths {Rev.17:16} as per the Harlot being judged. But it comes to pass right off the bat, in Rev. 6, the Beast must subvert all other religions to start with, thus he will chase Israel into the wilderness, he will Martyr the Gentiles who have accepted Christ {5th Seal}, Rev. 12:17, and he will destroy all religions and appoint a BEAST over Religion, the False Prophet. The 2nd Beast of Rev. 13 who comes out of the land/earth {Israel}.

    The First Beast of course is a Gentile Geo-political leader from Europe, born in Greece. The Two-witnesses of Rev. 11 are already preaching repentance by the time the Beast Conquers Jerusalem/Mediterranean Sea Region, that is why some of the Jews {1/3} fled Judea just before the Beast goes forth Conquering. The 6th Seal is opened and mankind finally understand they are in the Lamb's Wrath {God's Wrath via the Lamb who opens the Seals}. These first Four Seals hit very fast, the Jews are fleeing Judea, then we get the 6th Seal that announces supernaturally, you are in God's Wrath, so mankind finally understand that the Anti-Christ represents the Four Horseman and that they have been in God's Wrath since the Anti-Christ or Little Horn went forth Conquering thereby becoming THE BEAST !!

    In Rev. 7 Just before Jesus opens the 7th Seal in Rev. 8, which will bring destruction to Babylon {this whole world} he tells his Angels to hold off until Israel {144,000} are protected in the Petra/Bozrah Mountain area, the 144,000 is a Metaphor for ALL ISRAEL, not every Jew. Israel as a Nation is preserved/saved, but only 1/3 of the Jews are saved/repent, 2/3 perish. We then are shown the Church in Heaven one last time in Rev. 7:9-17, they are said to have come out of the Great Tribulation, and everyone demands this to mean the Greatest Ever Troubles for Jacob, but it really means the 2000 some odd year Church Age Period, which is GREATER than the 7 year period of Jacob's troubles as in 2000>7. Jesus told us we were to have continual tribulation, so the 2000 some odd year Church Age was no doubt the Greatest Period of troubles, and that is what John was referring to, the Martyrs under the Altar are specifically told they must wait until their fellow brothers die in just the like manner as they did, so they must wait until the Beasts 42 month rule is over before they can rule with Christ {see Rev. 20:4} for 1000 years on earth.

    In Rev. 8, after the Jews are protected in the Petra region, God unleashes His fury on Babylon {see Rev. 18} which God sees as Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth, Satan is cast down to earth, Apollyon is released via the coming 1st Woe. The Two-witnesses are praying down these plagues no doubt, this is why the world hates them. All the grasses in all the world are burned up, as are a 1/3 of all the trees in the whole world, that is a whole lotta smoke in the air !! A 1/3 part of the Seas are turned to blood, 1/3 of the Sea Creatures die, 1/3 of the ships are Destroyed, and 1/3 of all the drinking waters are poisoned. A 1/3 part of the sun, moon and stars give not their light, one has to think all the smoke is blocking out the sun, moon and stars. Then an Angel announces there are THREE WOES LEFT, and the last three Trumpets that are yet to sound will indeed be the coming Three Woes.

    In Rev. 9 we see Woe #1 and Woe #2. Apollyon and his hordes of Demons are released from the bottomless pit in Woe #1, thus the world {Babylon} is become a Habitation of Devils {see Rev. 18}. They maim mankind but can not kill them. In Woe #2 we see an Angelic Army of God {200 Million} which brings plagues against Mankind where 1.5 Billion people are killed. We see the 2nd Woe repeated in Rev. 11, but it's the same Woe, Rev. 11 is not a REAL TIME EVENT, it's a Parenthetical Citation or a set-a-side chapter which speaks about other things that happened in the Judgement chapters besides the Seal, Trumpet or Vial Judgment's per se.

    Rev. 10 is a flash forward to the end.

    Rev. 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations, they are not a part of the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation.


    Rev. 11 is about the Two-witnesses ministry, it seems to start 75 days before the Beast comes to power and they seem to die about 75 days before the Beast dies. They preach repentance to the Jews for 1260 days. This happens from 75 days before the Beast comes to power until 75 days before the Beast is killed/destroyed by Jesus at the 7th Vial. When the 7th Trumpet sounds in Rev. chapter 11, the Two-witnesses are already dead, this means they actually put forth this prayer unto God before they died. The 7th Trumpet is nothing more than all 7 Vials Combined. This is why it says Babylon is Fallen. The 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe !!

    Rev. 12 and 13 both start of course in Rev. ch. 6 , in the Middle of the Week. One shows the Beast chasing Israel into the Wilderness and the other shows the Beast ruling for 42 months.

    Rev. 14 is all about three specific Harvests, the Church is Raptured in verse 14, the Wheat {144,000} grows with the Wicked Tares until the end !! Jesus gathers the Wheat into his barn, whilst bundling the Wicked Tares together to be burned at a later date. {Second Death}. This chapter thus covers the full 7 years in total.

    Rev. 15&16 are about the last 7 Vials, but they come forth from the Last/7th Trumpet, and thus the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe !! Jesus takes over in Rev. 16:19 and God sees the Nations he defeats as Babylon, and Vial #6 tells us who these Nations are, the Kings of the East, and the Kings of the WHOLE WORLD, so Babylon = the Whole World in God's eyes. This is the End of Babylon, or Satan's Rule on earth, Jesus takes over here, Babylon has fallen the Angel says IT IS DONE !! This of course ends the world as we know it. Thus Rev. 17 and 18 have to be about Events that have already come to pass, just as I have already asserted.

    Rev. 17 is the Judgment of the Harlot. All False Religion is Judged here. In the end she is killed off by the Kings in League with the Beast starting at the midway point, in Rev. 6, the Beast demands to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD, thus the Kings kill off Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and all religions. The Harlot {False Religions} had been co-mingled with Babylon {False/Beast Governments} since the beginning, she is the mother of harlots, she is an abomination, and she was a Mystery until God explained who she was. She was co-mingled with Babylon !!

    Rev. 18 is the other side of the two sided coin. The Harlot RIDES the Beast !! Babylon is the Whole World under the rule of Satan, Babel means confusion, all men that follow Satan by definition are CONFUSED no doubt. So all those that fight for Satan against God at Armageddon are seen as Babylon the Great !! And thus God gives them the winepress of His Wrath {Rev. 16:19}. God calls Israel to come out of Babylon in verse 4, lest she {Israel} receives of her {Babylon/Worlds} Plagues. Babylon or the Worlds Merchants are dismayed that her COMMERCE is destroyed, but of course that is what the Plagues of God were designed to do !! The Trees, Seas and the Earth are all hit with fires and plagues, the 2nd Woe kills 1.5 Billion people, the Anti-Christ/Beast kills 2 Billion people. Of course this hurts Babylons {WHOLE WORLDS} economy. In ONE HOUR judgment comes on Babylon, well the Kings rule with the Beast for ONE HOUR also {42 Months just as Rev. 17:12 says, the Kings have power with the Beast for ONE HOUR which = 42 Months}. Rev. 18 is the Whole World getting hit with God's Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, it starts in Rev. 6, and runs through Rev. 16, whereas the Harlot is killed off in Rev. ch. 6 to begin with, then she is replaced by the False Prophet Religious Beast.

    Rev. 19 is the Church going to Heaven, readying herself to become Christs Bride, Marrying the Lamb, then returning to earth with Jesus on White horses {as Conquerors}, where we have our Marriage Supper {Armageddon}. This chapter also lasts the full 7 years, thus it is also not a part of the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation.

    Rev. 20, is the Judgment Seat, Rev. 21 and 22 are the everafter and the New Jerusalem.

  5. #35
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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    We're not far apart on some of this--maybe even in agreement.

    We don't know the times and the seasons of the Church Age--that is clear. However, the saints have been predicting the Sabbath Millennial prognostication for many centuries now. They all seemed to know we would still be around, pre-Millennium, for 6000 years of recorded history.

    We definitely agree on the formula X + 3.5 = Christ's Coming. Thanks!
    Algebra equations have no place in Bible prophecy.

    Jesus said that He would work for two 'days, then attain His reward'. Luke 13:32. Paralleled by Hosea 6:2.
    We know from two witnesses; Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8, that to God, one day in heaven is equal to 1000 earth years.

    Therefore from the commencement of Jesus' Ministry in 29.5 AD, which is exactly 4000 years since Adam, we know the Jesus will Return circa 2029/2030
    This timeframe gives just enough time from now, for all that is prophesied in the end times to take place.
    Expect dramatic things soon!

  6. #36
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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    We're not far apart on some of this--maybe even in agreement.

    We don't know the times and the seasons of the Church Age--that is clear. However, the saints have been predicting the Sabbath Millennial prognostication for many centuries now. They all seemed to know we would still be around, pre-Millennium, for 6000 years of recorded history.

    We definitely agree on the formula X + 3.5 = Christ's Coming. Thanks!
    Sure, so then the gathering of the armies against the antichrist will occur around the end of the 3.5 years, the war of Armageddon/Joel starting during the last few days, possibly the SAME DAY as the second coming.

    To those others who wonder why armies are gathered AGAINST antichrist, well he rules the world for 42 months according to Rev 13, so he doesn't need to attack anyone. He comes to power in Israel, and so we can only assume Israel is one of his base countries. So the attack on Israel seems unlikely to be him attacking anyone, but the whole world secretly conspired against him.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Algebra equations have no place in Bible prophecy.

    Jesus said that He would work for two 'days, then attain His reward'. Luke 13:32. Paralleled by Hosea 6:2.
    We know from two witnesses; Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8, that to God, one day in heaven is equal to 1000 earth years.

    Therefore from the commencement of Jesus' Ministry in 29.5 AD, which is exactly 4000 years since Adam, we know the Jesus will Return circa 2029/2030
    This timeframe gives just enough time from now, for all that is prophesied in the end times to take place.
    Expect dramatic things soon!
    I agree it is soon. The world awaits the church to fulfil our mandate to preach to every tribe, and the amazing thing is that the final tribe may very well be a public event.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKCN1NQ0QT

    The Indian government is protecting that tribe like some kind of novelty, civilisation is not allowed to go near it. Could it be the very last tribe not to have heard the gospel? Maybe only God knows, but already the battle for the souls on that island has become a public event. One of these days God will intervene somehow and the outside world will be allowed to communicate with that tribe.

    Once the last tribe has been preached to , we get this amazing victory:
    They triumphed over him
    by the blood of the Lamb
    and by the word of their testimony;
    they did not love their lives so much
    as to shrink from death.
    12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
    and you who dwell in them!
    But woe to the earth and the sea,
    because the devil has gone down to you!
    He is filled with fury,
    because he knows that his time is short.”


    Then just 3,5 years are left.

  8. #38
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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Jesus specifically told us we would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION, so the 2000 some odd year Church Age is Tribulation, it is a greater length of time than the 70th week which will be a 7 year period. Of course there will be a Peace Agreement just as Daniel 9 says, and there will be a 3.5 year period of the Greatest Ever Troubles. But all years until Jesus returns will be tribulation, that comes straight from Jesus' mouth, so I think that is why some people confuse.

    1.) We have a 2000 some of Year Tribulation Church Age.

    2.) We have a 7 year period of the 70th week, its still tribulation in that Jesus has not returned !!

    3.) We have a 3.5 year period of Gods Wrath called the Day of the Lord.
    Much more than 2000 years of tribulation, so start the trib period at Adam.

    Multiple scriptures show the faithful in the OT also underwent tribulation.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Much more than 2000 years of tribulation, so start the trib period at Adam.

    Multiple scriptures show the faithful in the OT also underwent tribulation.
    Yes, but I am only speaking as per the Tribulation from the Church Age on, because I am pointing to the Church being Raptured then there being a 70th week of Tribulation after the 2000 some odd years of Tribulation the Church went through.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Algebra equations have no place in Bible prophecy.

    Jesus said that He would work for two 'days, then attain His reward'. Luke 13:32. Paralleled by Hosea 6:2.
    We know from two witnesses; Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8, that to God, one day in heaven is equal to 1000 earth years.

    Therefore from the commencement of Jesus' Ministry in 29.5 AD, which is exactly 4000 years since Adam, we know the Jesus will Return circa 2029/2030
    This timeframe gives just enough time from now, for all that is prophesied in the end times to take place.
    Expect dramatic things soon!
    Rev 11.2 They will trample on the holy city for 42 months...
    9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial....
    14 the third woe is coming soon.


    This looks very much like the algebra formula: 3.5 years + 3.5 days + X = the Final Tribulation.
    Jerusalem will continue to be oppressed by the nations, as it has been for the last 2000 years. This will continue in a final 3.5 year period in which Antichrist oppresses the city. At the end of Antichrist's period of control over Jerusalem, he will put the 2 Prophets to death, and they will lie in the streets of Jerusalem for 3.5 days. We are now at 1260 days + 3.5 days. Finally, we are told the 2nd Woe ends here, and the 3rd Woe will be the actual climax of the present age. This is an indeterminate period of time, suggested as "coming soon."

    I personally believe this final "indeterminate period of time" will be the time God prepares the nations to gather to Armageddon, for final judgment. How long it will take for Antichrist to prepare his forces for world war I don't know. But I feel sure it won't take long.

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Sure, so then the gathering of the armies against the antichrist will occur around the end of the 3.5 years, the war of Armageddon/Joel starting during the last few days, possibly the SAME DAY as the second coming.

    To those others who wonder why armies are gathered AGAINST antichrist, well he rules the world for 42 months according to Rev 13, so he doesn't need to attack anyone. He comes to power in Israel, and so we can only assume Israel is one of his base countries. So the attack on Israel seems unlikely to be him attacking anyone, but the whole world secretly conspired against him.
    That's how I see it. Antichrist is formidable in his 10 nation rule, which I believe will be centered in Europe. It may or may not include an Islamic bloc--I don't know? At any rate, his time of rule is limited to 1260 days. After that period, he kills the 2 Prophets, and the world begins to turn on him.

    Since it is his deception that brings the world to the point of war I have to assume that a large part of the world supports him. But his ways also likely incite other powers that do not appreciate a European-centered world power. This may be what leads to Armageddon?

    Rev 16.13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

    Initially, Antichrist, based in Europe, seems too formidable to resist (Rev 13.4). But he appears to establish a military position at Armageddon, in Israel, as if to challenge the rest of the world's religions. He destroys Rome, as the former religious center of Europe. And he challenges Jerusalem as both Jewish and Islamic religious centers. This may be what precipitates WW3?

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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Yes, but I am only speaking as per the Tribulation from the Church Age on, because I am pointing to the Church being Raptured then there being a 70th week of Tribulation after the 2000 some odd years of Tribulation the Church went through.
    The bible speaks of no church age.

    Don't bring external concepts foreign to the bible into the bible, and then use them to create disharmony with the scriptures.

    All believers, of all time have sufferend tribulation; according to the scriptures.

    Nowhere in the bible, not in Daniel 9; not in Revelation; nowhere....does it say there will be a period of time that is defined by a timeperiod, called 'the tribulation' or 'the great tribulation', nor is that missing timeline defined solely to a group of people.

    Jesus said to everyone, 'In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. ".

    Moses said the same thing 4000 years ago to the Hebrews, saying that at any time, when in tribulation....seek the Lord, He will not leave them or forsake them; the same thing the Hebrew writer wrote 2000 years later, to all men living at that time.

    "Deuteronomy 4:29 "if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. "


  13. #43
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    Re: Revelation: MULTIPLE VISIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    The bible speaks of no church age.

    Don't bring external concepts foreign to the bible into the bible, and then use them to create disharmony with the scriptures.

    All believers, of all time have sufferend tribulation; according to the scriptures.

    Nowhere in the bible, not in Daniel 9; not in Revelation; nowhere....does it say there will be a period of time that is defined by a timeperiod, called 'the tribulation' or 'the great tribulation', nor is that missing timeline defined solely to a group of people.

    Jesus said to everyone, 'In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. ".

    Moses said the same thing 4000 years ago to the Hebrews, saying that at any time, when in tribulation....seek the Lord, He will not leave them or forsake them; the same thing the Hebrew writer wrote 2000 years later, to all men living at that time.

    "Deuteronomy 4:29 "if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. "

    Of course it does, You (Church) will have continual tribulation...... In Rev. 2 and 3 we see a specified Church Age called the THINGS WHICH ARE and the coming 70th week specifically called the THINGS WHICH WILL BE HEREAFTER.

    And the 70th week is spoken of in Daniel Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it not there. Just like those who can't see the Pre tribulation Rapture are not going to stop it from happening. I just SMH at those who study the word but can't see these simple things, because it leads others astray, and we will answerer for that. There is really no call for not understanding these basic things.

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