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Thread: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

  1. #16
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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I don't have it reversed.
    The kingdom remains, but the rule (THEIR dominion) over that kingdom is removed.
    A beast represents a kingdom in every prophecy, therefore if its life remains, the kingdom (or nation using modern terms) remains.
    What is removed is the power (the dominion) of that nation.
    These beasts ruled with authority and dominion over other nations, especially over the Jews and Israel.
    You've clarified it now. This is not how you put it earlier.

  2. #17
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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    All the others will be in the lake of fire already

    If there is a future MK on the earth why then does revelation chapter 20 if literal not state

    1000 year reign on the earth?

    1000 years of peace?

    Jesus on the earth?

    Satan and his army surrounding Jesus and the saints?

    Jesus going back up to heaven?
    All the above is clearly answered in scripture. I'm sure you've already read them but understood it differently.

  3. #18
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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The main objections to the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM seem to be;
    1. That this prophecy, among all the others, is NOT LITERAL
    2. That the conditions on earth under the rule of the rod of iron are no better than now

    Point #1 is easily answered. Every single prophecy that has been fulfilled, was fulfilled LITERALLY and accurately. What are the chances that this one won't? The wording concerning this reign of Christ's gives no absurdity, no logic problems, no conflict with the rest of the Bible. It AGREES with all that is said about this Kingdom. Christ came and offered Israel this Kingdom. If it was allegorical, then what is an allegorical Kingdom? If there was no Kingdom, was Christ a liar? Do all the Parables concerning the Kingdom mean nothing? Or is it not as simple as it is written that the "prince of this world" will be thrown out and that his minions are judged, and a NEW KING will rule the earth? These are some of the questions that the "allegorical" Camp must answer. It is a sickness among men that anything that they don't agree with in the Bible must be allegorical. But God is not mocked. The minute you refuse a direct statement of scripture and assign it an allegorical status, you start a chain reaction of ERROR. You go down a path of ever-increasing absurdity. Something like this. "The Kingdom that our Lord sets up on earth is allegorical. Therefore the defeat of Satan morally on the cross was allegorical. Armageddon, where our Lord takes the Kingdom by force and crushes His opponents as Daniel predicted, is allegorical. Satan must therefore be allegorical. The Lake of Fire is allegorical. And if all this be allegorical, then Jesus, redemption, rebirth and co-kingship with Jesus are all allegorical." And so the absurdity is complete and Satan laughs as we Christians trash the Bible.

    Point #2 is the product of men's thoughts who do not read the Bible. It is that men wish for a Utopia UNREASONABLY. In Singapore the crime rate is almost non existent. The City is clean and the medical services work. Water is drinkable and nearly all citizens who work, earn enough. Taxes are low and it is safe for a woman to walk the streets at night. Why? Because the authorities rule with an iron fist. But in this country of low crime, low taxes and safety, are JAILS. Men and women who would injure the average citizen are locked up. Those criminals who would kill and steal and rape ARE UNHAPPY, but the law-abiding citizen is free of danger and injustice. Is Singapore a UTOPIA. NO! There is unhappiness and there are tragedies, but the general tone is one of law and order. And this is what some on this Forum object to?

    The Pagan Roman Catholic teaching is that we die and go to heaven where we walk on golden streets after going through gates of pearl. A fine thought, but does the Bible show this? NO! The Bible shows creatures of God who have exercised their free will FOR EVIL in a Lake of Fire IN SIGHT of other men - for ever (Isa.66:22-24). Although these men and women chose to go up against God, although they freely perpetrated suffering on God and other men, although they had a chance to repent and take a wonderful and expensive way out, they went ahead and shook their fists at God and man. And then, when they land in the Lake of Fire, the bleeding heart Christians on this Forum and elsewhere, call God's justice into question! And then, because the Lake of Fire is a well-documented FACT of the Bible, they accuse God of not having a UTOPIA like the Roman Church. But wait! Is not the Lake of Fire ALLEGORICAL??? And if so, let us eat drink, be merry, murder, steal and worship idols, for the Lake of Fire does not really exist - just like Christ's future rule with the rod of iron for 1,000 years doesn't really exist!
    You couldn't have put it better. Let's see how those who want to theorise everything respond to this.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It has occurred to me that the concept and makeup of the Millennial Kingdom require a closer look. Matters arising from another OP has forced me to really question what the Millennium entails, it's composition, etc. Generally, we all accept that it is a thousand-year earthly reign of Christ with his saints on earth, with Jerusalem as capital where the Lord will pitch his Throne.

    That said, what is the Millennium Kingdom?


    • Will it cover the whole earth or just Israel and Jerusalem?
    • The majority (myself included) believe that the New Jerusalem [the holy city] will descend at the inception of the MK. I recognise that some disagree with this view and believe that it will come down after the 1000 years are over.
    • From Isaiah 65:20 we learn that death will occur in the Millennium. Yet in Rev 21 and 22 we learn also that death and sorrow will not be found in the holy city.


    Rev 22:14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15Outside [the holy city/New Jerusalem] are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

    If wickedness, sin and death are found outside the holy city - what then do we understand by "outside" of the holy city? I would say it denotes the rest of the world as we know it. Consequently, it begs the question, is the rest of the world at that time be part of the Millennial Kingdom or not?

    For those who deny that the holy city will start from the beginning of the Millennium, how do they explain a scenario where no boundary exists between Jerusalem where Jesus and his saints dwell and the rest of the world with its inherent evil and wickedness? At least in Rev 21:12-21, we know that the holy city will have gates (as a demarcation from the rest of the world) with angels presumably to keep reprobate freeloaders at bay.

    Your thoughts are welcome.
    Based on past discussions you have had in the past, assuming I'm recalling correctly, your overall position makes little sense to me. If I recall, in the past you indicated that the NHNE are after the GWTJ, and that the GWTJ is after the thousand years, thus the chronology would be the thousand years followed by the GWTJ followed by the NHNE. Yet in the OP you apparently indicate the holy city of Rev 21-21 will start from the beginning of the Millennium. The holy city can't do that without it also involving the NHNE in Rev 21-22 though. Nowhere in Rev 21-22 is there the holy city apart from the NHNE, nor vice versa. So going by what you indicate in the OP, assuming you take the thousand years to still be in the future, the chronology would be such, which BTW would agree with what FHG and I both conclude, where in the past I seem to recall you disputing and not even agreeing with this chronology. Maybe you have changed your mind since then, and that I'm not aware that you did? Or maybe I'm confusing you for someone else though I don't think I am in this case?

    The chronology according to what you indicated in the OP would have to be thus. The thousand years and the NHNE beginning at the same time, followed by the GWTJ. But if you disagree with that, in the OP you are contradicting yourself and Rev 21-22 if you are concluding the thousand years and the holy city begin at the same time, and occur post the 2nd coming, yet doesn't also involve the NHNE of Rev 21-22.

  5. #20
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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It has occurred to me that the concept and makeup of the Millennial Kingdom require a closer look. Matters arising from another OP has forced me to really question what the Millennium entails, it's composition, etc. Generally, we all accept that it is a thousand-year earthly reign of Christ with his saints on earth, with Jerusalem as capital where the Lord will pitch his Throne.
    Maybe this topic can end up being interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    That said, what is the Millennium Kingdom?
    The reign of Jesus Christ on Earth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    • Will it cover the whole earth or just Israel and Jerusalem?
    • The majority (myself included) believe that the New Jerusalem [the holy city] will descend at the inception of the MK. I recognise that some disagree with this view and believe that it will come down after the 1000 years are over.
    • From Isaiah 65:20 we learn that death will occur in the Millennium. Yet in Rev 21 and 22 we learn also that death and sorrow will not be found in the holy city.
    1. I believe the Kingdom will Cover the whole earth. I base this on Passages such as Daniel 2:21-45, Daniel 7:14,26-27. 2. I still find FHG to be the only person on this boards who agrees with you on the timing of the NJ (Glad he is here to confirm that you 2 share this belief). 3. Death and Sorrow will not be found in the NHNE at all much less in the NJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Rev 22:14[FONT="]Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15[/FONT][FONT="]Outside [the holy city/New Jerusalem] are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.[/FONT]

    If wickedness, sin and death are found outside the holy city - what then do we understand by "outside" of the holy city? I would say it denotes the rest of the world as we know it.
    I believe this Passage Just denotes those who Do not enter the City not the state of the world as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Consequently, it begs the question, is the rest of the world at that time be part of the Millennial Kingdom or not?
    Do you believe that there will be no more death in the NHNE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    For those who deny that the holy city will start from the beginning of the Millennium, how do they explain a scenario where no boundary exists between Jerusalem where Jesus and his saints dwell and the rest of the world with its inherent evil and wickedness? At least in Rev 21:12-21, we know that the holy city will have gates (as a demarcation from the rest of the world) with angels presumably to keep reprobate freeloaders at bay.
    I think you've misunderstood this passage the seperation is between those who can enter the city and those who cannot, the fact of the matter is you have not personally addressed your beliefs of the state of the World into the eschaton. If you believe that after the NHNE there is no more death (Rev 21:4) then it is clear that the NJ is not the only place where death is No more. If this is the case those described as *outside the city* would mean all those who did not recieve christ that they may enter it.

  6. #21
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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Based on past discussions you have had in the past, assuming I'm recalling correctly, your overall position makes little sense to me. If I recall, in the past you indicated that the NHNE are after the GWTJ, and that the GWTJ is after the thousand years, thus the chronology would be the thousand years followed by the GWTJ followed by the NHNE. Yet in the OP you apparently indicate the holy city of Rev 21-21 will start from the beginning of the Millennium. The holy city can't do that without it also involving the NHNE in Rev 21-22 though. Nowhere in Rev 21-22 is there the holy city apart from the NHNE, nor vice versa. So going by what you indicate in the OP, assuming you take the thousand years to still be in the future, the chronology would be such, which BTW would agree with what FHG and I both conclude, where in the past I seem to recall you disputing and not even agreeing with this chronology. Maybe you have changed your mind since then, and that I'm not aware that you did? Or maybe I'm confusing you for someone else though I don't think I am in this case?


    The chronology according to what you indicated in the OP would have to be thus. The thousand years and the NHNE beginning at the same time, followed by the GWTJ. But if you disagree with that, in the OP you are contradicting yourself and Rev 21-22 if you are concluding the thousand years and the holy city begin at the same time, and occur post the 2nd coming, yet doesn't also involve the NHNE of Rev 21-22.

    Yes, I believe FHG convinced him to Change his view on the NJ, while they continued to disagree on the timing of the NHNE. It was a sad day(to me) when he accepted FHG views on the timing of the NJ(believing wrongly in my opinion that Rev 22:15 created a contradiction that could only be reconciled by moving up the timing of the arrival of the NJ). Still, FHG Still believes the NJ & NHNE come at the same time so Trivalee chronology is unique to the views expressed by anyone else on these boards from what I've seen, with the Belief that the NJ comes down during the start of the MK and that the NJ and NHNE do not share the same timing.

  7. #22
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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It has occurred to me that the concept and makeup of the Millennial Kingdom require a closer look. Matters arising from another OP has forced me to really question what the Millennium entails, it's composition, etc. Generally, we all accept that it is a thousand-year earthly reign of Christ with his saints on earth, with Jerusalem as capital where the Lord will pitch his Throne.
    Trivalee,

    Where do you place the vision of Ezekiel 40-48 in relation to the above?

    Do you think it occurs before the New Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven, or
    do you think Ezekiel 40-48 is a parallel vision of Rev 21-22, or
    do you think Ezekiel 40-48 was only a vision of what could have happened, and was discarded and replaced with a better temple in the 1st Century, or
    do you think Ezekiel 40-48 occurs some other way?

  8. #23
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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Yes, I believe FHG convinced him to Change his view on the NJ, while they continued to disagree on the timing of the NHNE. It was a sad day(to me) when he accepted FHG views on the timing of the NJ(believing wrongly in my opinion that Rev 22:15 created a contradiction that could only be reconciled by moving up the timing of the arrival of the NJ). Still, FHG Still believes the NJ & NHNE come at the same time so Trivalee chronology is unique to the views expressed by anyone else on these boards from what I've seen, with the Belief that the NJ comes down during the start of the MK and that the NJ and NHNE do not share the same timing.
    It's pretty simple in my opinion. The NHNE has to occur soon after Christ has returned. A thousand years later is not soon. That can mean only one of two things. 1...Assuming one takes the thousand years to be post the 2nd coming, the NHNE would have to begin when the thousand years do. 2...Assuming that's not a possible conclusion, the only thing left to conclude then, Amils have been correct all along, because the only way the NHNE can begin with the 2nd coming, yet not start with the beginning of the thousand years, thus follow after the 1000 years instead, the 1000 years would have to precede the 2nd coming, not follow it. Even though I'm Premil it makes no sense to me that Christ would return, yet the beginning of the NHNE wouldn't even occur until some 1000 years later. I'm still not entirely convinced Amils are incorrect.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    All the above is clearly answered in scripture. I'm sure you've already read them but understood it differently.
    Which scriptures I'm not sure which ones you mean?

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    I have no problem with the idea of Christ's kingdom coming to the Earth at the 2nd Coming.

    I actually expect it to occur.

    I however, do not limit it to 1000 years. I see it being everlasting.

    I also believe multiple NT passages tell me when Christ's Kingdom descends from Heaven to the Earth, that the curse of sin and death will have been removed from it; and only the glorified redeemed will be present.

    I expect a true, perfect, pristine, peace and harmony Kingdom, with Christ as the Lord of it, forevermore.

    Where I have issues with many common Premill views, is the ethnic divisions, and the continuation of sin and rebellion within that kingdom.

    I believe a small handful of OT passages have been misunderstood and misapplied into Christ's post-2nd coming kingdom; that creates the conflict.

    I cannot see any reason personally from the scriptures, for a post-2nd Coming kingdom where wickedness, sin, and death continue to plague the earth, and plague Christ's kingdom for an additional 1000 years after He establishes His kingdom.

    The Chialist historic-premill view taught by Justin Martyr and Iraneaus didn't teach most of the expectations of sin and death and racial divisions that modern day premill views have adopted and accepted.

    But, imo, the Chiliast view, when you look at the details of Christ's post-2nd coming Earth; is much more similar to the historic Amill/Postmill views; than the modern premill view.

    For me, it comes down to the idea that everything via the cross or via the 2nd coming itself; will finalize all reasons for any continuation of sin and death and wickedness in Christ's Kingdom; and when He reigns, it will be a kingdom of righteousness only, with those who are His.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    I have no problem with the idea of Christ's kingdom coming to the Earth at the 2nd Coming.

    I actually expect it to occur.

    I however, do not limit it to 1000 years. I see it being everlasting.
    Per my view though, right or wrong, if the NHNE begin with the thousand years, the thousand years would simply be the first thousand years of the everlasting kingdom, and not that the kingdom is only 1000 years in length. Maybe other Premils reason it differently and conclude there are two kingdoms once Christ has returned...a thousand year kingdom followed by the everlasting kingdom. I can't agree with that though, even If I too am Premil.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    The NHNE starts at the end of the 1000 years. It should not be confused with the holy city that descends at the beginning of the MK. In effect, the NHNE is a cleansing of the sin-polluted present earth. You can't have the NHNE at the beginning of the MK when sin, wickedness, etc. still pretty much run wild.

    The NHNE has to come as a replacement of the violated old one when all that offends are judged at the GWTJ. We are even told that it's when the old earth/heaven flees from the face of Jesus in Rev 20:11. It never ceases to amaze me how some wilfully ignore scripture in pursuit of mans' idea of what they believe God's plans are. It is also at this juncture (when death and wickedness are judged and the NHNE ushered in) that God the Father descends with his Tabernacle to dwell with us (Rev 21:3).

    I won't be surprised if some claim that the Godhead will also be on earth during the Millennial Age.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Per my view though, right or wrong, if the NHNE begin with the thousand years, the thousand years would simply be the first thousand years of the everlasting kingdom, and not that the kingdom is only 1000 years in length. Maybe other Premils reason it differently and conclude there are two kingdoms once Christ has returned...a thousand year kingdom followed by the everlasting kingdom. I can't agree with that though, even If I too am Premil.
    I just can't see any reason for an earthly 1000 year reign followed by an eternal reign myself what is the purpose? It would seam to be a failed 1000 year reign if almost the whole world turns against Jesus at the end. I think that gives satan too much credit

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I just can't see any reason for an earthly 1000 year reign followed by an eternal reign myself what is the purpose? It would seam to be a failed 1000 year reign if almost the whole world turns against Jesus at the end. I think that gives satan too much credit
    They were already against Jesus at the beginning of it. So much for today being the day of salvation .



    9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

    13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
    14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  15. #30

    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    The "millennial" Kingdom is entered by faith in Jesus.

    ye are come unto....the heavenly Jerusalem Heb.12:22

    Those outside are dead,

    let the dead bury their dead....we were dead
    Mt.8:22, Eph.2:5

    Those inside are living,

    whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die....made us alive together with Christ. Jn.11:26 Eph.2:5

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