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Thread: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

  1. #31
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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Amils have been correct all along, because the only way the NHNE can begin with the 2nd coming, yet not start with the beginning of the thousand years, thus follow after the 1000 years instead, the 1000 years would have to precede the 2nd coming, not follow it.
    Amils are correct HOWEVER they stumble yet with understanding the "1000" years. They wrongly will support their view in saying that a literal 1000 years occurs before Christ returns which started at the time of Christ and Satan being bound. This then creates why those do not agree with them as Satan is not bound today.

    The solution which I know you have heard from myself before and perhaps are ready to grasp is that there is no 1000 literal years after or before and that the "1000" is a metaphor. The 1000 has been used before in 2 Peter as a metaphor. To again state why John used a metaphor was that he could not determine the exact time Satan will be in the pit as time not measured outside this realm and used 1000 as a constant with 2 Peter.

    Satan is thrown into the pit Rev 12 in the future. Comes up from the pit Rev 13 (second beast).

  2. #32
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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Yes, I believe FHG convinced him to Change his view on the NJ, while they continued to disagree on the timing of the NHNE. It was a sad day(to me) when he accepted FHG views on the timing of the NJ(believing wrongly in my opinion that Rev 22:15 created a contradiction that could only be reconciled by moving up the timing of the arrival of the NJ). Still, FHG Still believes the NJ & NHNE come at the same time so Trivalee chronology is unique to the views expressed by anyone else on these boards from what I've seen, with the Belief that the NJ comes down during the start of the MK and that the NJ and NHNE do not share the same timing.
    Part of what Trivalee's challenge is, is that he is struggling with the NHNE starting at the start of the MK.
    Your error is that you have no more death in the NHNE.
    Yet do we really get what the NHNE is and how it differs from the NJ?

    The NJ (New Jerusalem) is the place where believers will live on earth DURING the MK. This is a separate idea to the NHNE. The point being that John 14 states Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us, and then we will be with Him where He is. As He will be on earth DURING the MK (and us as well) then it follows this place will also be on earth, and this is the NJ.

    The NHNE though is not speaking about a brand new creation, but about a change in the heavenlies and on earth. It starts with the heavenlies, as in heaven so on earth. This is when Satan is kicked out of heaven and Jesus is no longer needed to intercede for us as the Accuser has been finally thrown down (through the testimony of Believers and the Blood of the Lamb).
    There is then the GT and reign of the Beast whilst the church is refined, and the tares removed.
    Then Jesus retunrs as King of Kings and so the kingdoms of the earth become the kingdom of our God, which means we have a new earth as well as a new heaven.
    This timing is confirmed in the prophecy to Isaiah 65 and 66 (and other places such as Daniel 2 and 7).

    You see your sole claim to no more death in the NHNE is from Rev 21:4 but this is a quote which is actually a statement about the NJ only - note Isaiah 65:19.

    Now we agree that the Kingdom of Jesus WILL cover the whole earth. The difference is that you have this happen instantaneously, whilst I understand it to take time. Eventually it will cover the whole earth. Dan 2 actually says the Rock will GROW to fill the whole earth. Not it IS the whole earth.
    The same picture is shown in Ezekiel 47 with the River of Life which flows to bring life to what was dead. It is a process.

    The same picture we also see in our own lives. We ARE a NEW creation, yet we are in the process of renewing our minds and being transformed to His likeness.
    So the NHNE is in process and the process is not finished until Satan has his final defeat and the GWToJ occurs. This is the actual purpose of the MK - to restore that which is ruined.

  3. #33
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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The NHNE starts at the end of the 1000 years. It should not be confused with the holy city that descends at the beginning of the MK.
    How can this not be contradicting what Rev 21-22 plainly states, not to mention, also what Isaiah 65 plainly states? The contradiction being that the holy city descends without it also involving the NHNE.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    An insightful and exploratory exegesis. I like the way you outlined the two phases of Jesus Christ' Eternal Kingdom and explained why it was necessary to split it into these phases. And you went further to explain the difference between them also. You provided information on stuff we presume to know but haven't thought them out.

    I started this OP to enable us to question and evaluate what we think we know about the Millennium, and you have provided a mindblowing account of God's divine plans for humanity from Adam to the eschaton.

    I hope others enjoy it as much as I have.
    Thank you for your kind words. But I rejoice much more that we have agreement. God bless.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The NHNE starts at the end of the 1000 years. It should not be confused with the holy city that descends at the beginning of the MK. In effect, the NHNE is a cleansing of the sin-polluted present earth. You can't have the NHNE at the beginning of the MK when sin, wickedness, etc. still pretty much run wild.
    Are you a NEW creation?
    Do you still struggle with sin?
    Are these two things impossible?
    If not then there is no issue with an NHNE at the beginning of the MK.

    The NHNE has to come as a replacement of the violated old one when all that offends are judged at the GWTJ. We are even told that it's when the old earth/heaven flees from the face of Jesus in Rev 20:11. It never ceases to amaze me how some wilfully ignore scripture in pursuit of mans' idea of what they believe God's plans are. It is also at this juncture (when death and wickedness are judged and the NHNE ushered in) that God the Father descends with his Tabernacle to dwell with us (Rev 21:3).

    I won't be surprised if some claim that the Godhead will also be on earth during the Millennial Age.
    The godhead is indeed 100% on the earth DURING the MK.
    Jesus is definitely here, and the NJ is here, and the Father is with Jesus in the NJ, and I am sure the Holy Spirit will be around, so why you would think the godhead is NOT here is a bit

    As for Rev 20:11 it is incorrect to state that someone is "wilfully ignoring scripture". I have given you the actual meaning of the grammar involved in this verse which shows that the heaven and earth flee away PRIOR to Jesus sitting on this throne. So really the question is why are YOU wilfully ignoring what scripture says? Of course you may simply disagree with my interpretation, but I gave you the links so you could confirm for yourself. Even in English it can have that meaning as it is not stating that it flees when He sits down, but that it has fled:
    Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.

    What makes the Heavens new? Is it because God does a brand new creation or is it because God defeats the powers and principalities of the air?
    The second is the correct answer, and that happens when Satan is kicked out of heaven shortly before Jesus returns to earth. Rev 12 speaks of a MAJOR change in the heavenlies and most people just read right by it, or they focus on the woman and the children. Yet the statement is "Now has the kingdom of God come..."

    And the earth is new when Jesus starts His reign for He is now King of Kings etc.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    there is no issue with an NHNE at the beginning of the MK.
    The issue is that you think some folks survive the process from old to nhne

    How does anyone survive the transformation to the NHNE at the 2nd coming? No one survives not even the old earth itself.....

    If you wrongly suggest that that those who are changed in a twinkling are evidence of survivors, they would still need to die to be made incorruptible, it is appointed to die, the wages of sin death and so on. Though the verse being changed in a twinkling refers the dead being changed from the grave.

    In addition, again if you wrongly suggest that I thess 4 speaks of survivors after the 2nd coming it is in contraction to the points above. Everyone dies!!! and everyone needs to die to be changed!!! The alive and remain are those dead resurrected made alive from the grave and remain as the wicked are cast out.

    And if you wrongly suggest that Zech speaks of those left from the nations are living survivors of the 2nd coming again the above. Those "left" or remain does not preclude them from still dying.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Amils have been correct all along, because the only way the NHNE can begin with the 2nd coming, yet not start with the beginning of the thousand years, thus follow after the 1000 years instead, the 1000 years would have to precede the 2nd coming, not follow it.
    Hi DD good to have you back again.

    So just to clarify you agree with the amil view now?

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Hi DD good to have you back again.

    So just to clarify you agree with the amil view now?
    No, Marty, not yet. I just don't discount the possibility that the view could be correct. IOW I'm not closedminded to the possibility, though there were a few times I thought about being closedminded about Amil because Amils are closedminded about Premil. But I then decided that would be a bad reason for doing so, so I eventually decided to not fully close my mind to the possibility of Amil. BTW, that quote you have quoted by me, that's not the post I made in context. Read the original post and not what Ross quoted me out of context as having said.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    No, Marty, not yet. I just don't discount the possibility that the view could be correct. IOW I'm not closedminded to the possibility, though there were a few times I thought about being closedminded about Amil because Amils are closedminded about Premil. But I then decided that would be a bad reason for doing so, so I eventually decided to not fully close my mind to the possibility of Amil. BTW, that quote you have quoted by me, that's not the post I made in context. Read the original post and not what Ross quoted me out of context as having said.
    Okay thanks for clarifying

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    The "millennial" Kingdom is entered by faith in Jesus.

    ye are come unto....the heavenly Jerusalem Heb.12:22

    Those outside are dead,

    let the dead bury their dead....we were dead
    Mt.8:22, Eph.2:5

    Those inside are living,

    whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die....made us alive together with Christ. Jn.11:26 Eph.2:5
    That's not exactly true because some of those outside the holy city can still enter the holy city if they believe.

    Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    That's not exactly true because some of those outside the holy city can still enter the holy city if they believe.

    Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
    We are the reigning kings and we bring our glory into the holy city. We don't keep going in or out we enter it for good that's why we walk in the light as God is the light not the sun

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Based on past discussions you have had in the past, assuming I'm recalling correctly, your overall position makes little sense to me. If I recall, in the past you indicated that the NHNE are after the GWTJ, and that the GWTJ is after the thousand years, thus the chronology would be the thousand years followed by the GWTJ followed by the NHNE. Yet in the OP you apparently indicate the holy city of Rev 21-21 will start from the beginning of the Millennium. The holy city can't do that without it also involving the NHNE in Rev 21-22 though. Nowhere in Rev 21-22 is there the holy city apart from the NHNE, nor vice versa. So going by what you indicate in the OP, assuming you take the thousand years to still be in the future, the chronology would be such, which BTW would agree with what FHG and I both conclude, where in the past I seem to recall you disputing and not even agreeing with this chronology. Maybe you have changed your mind since then, and that I'm not aware that you did? Or maybe I'm confusing you for someone else though I don't think I am in this case?

    The chronology according to what you indicated in the OP would have to be thus. The thousand years and the NHNE beginning at the same time, followed by the GWTJ. But if you disagree with that, in the OP you are contradicting yourself and Rev 21-22 if you are concluding the thousand years and the holy city begin at the same time, and occur post the 2nd coming, yet doesn't also involve the NHNE of Rev 21-22.
    Of course, my position will not make sense to you since you confuse the holy city with the NHNE. When you recognise that they are different, then you'll be opened to a whole new way of understanding the Millennium. The holy city (New Jerusalem) is not attached to the NHNE - any such assumption is folly.

    This is my position:

    1. The holy city descends at the inception of the Millennial kingdom. This is where the Lord's Throne is.
    2. At the end of the MK, the GWTJ is set up, then this old heaven and earth flee from the face of the righteous Judge (Rev 20:11) and is replaced by the NHNE.
    3. After all that offends are judged and cast into the lake of fire - God the Father comes down to earth and dwells with us.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    No, Marty, not yet. I just don't discount the possibility that the view could be correct. IOW I'm not closedminded to the possibility, though there were a few times I thought about being closedminded about Amil because Amils are closedminded about Premil. But I then decided that would be a bad reason for doing so, so I eventually decided to not fully close my mind to the possibility of Amil. BTW, that quote you have quoted by me, that's not the post I made in context. Read the original post and not what Ross quoted me out of context as having said.
    I cannot account for all situations, but I can share my observations.

    From what I have observed, in the 20 odd years I have been a member of this forum, is that:

    1) A large portion of Amill/Postmill members here, were once originally Premill, most of which were dispensational Premill.
    2) I can only remember one Premill person here, who was originally Amill/Postmill that I have met.

    So to some degree, I think what you see, are some folks seeming 'closeminded' but in reality, they have ardently believed and reviewed both perspectives; and for whatever reason, they chose to forgoe the premill view.
    To then convince them to turn back to it, isn't impossible, and I think many could be open to the idea; but then it depends on the details of what is required to do so. Most non-Premills I know, would not ever consider it bilbilcally sound to return
    to ethnic divisions, animal sacrifices, physical circumcision, and different ways of salvation based on when and to whom you were born. Not all Premill folks do this, but a good portion do some or even most of this is common.

    From what I also see, most who are premill, were always premill. They have one perspective, and it makes it difficult at times, to forgoe the tentants of that perspecitve, and see things from an alternate perspective.

    All that being said, everyone is on their own time-table, and their own path. Some are more open to consider other perspectives and alternatives, others are adamant they have the sole correct way; and if you disagree, you are wrongly dividing the word of truth, so to speak.

    At best, we should continue to be patient with each other, and to attempt to listen and understand differing perspectives, and what the reason might be for someone having a different perspective is.

    As I said above, I am expect Christ to come and reign on the Earth.
    I don't call it the Mill-Kingdom, because that is presumptive. No OT scriptures mention a Mill-period of time specifically anywhere, and only 6 verses in the entire NT mention a Mill-period of time.
    It is to assume those 6 NT verses into Isaiah 65, and Ezekiel 40-48, and Zech 14 that Premill must do. I won't do that.
    I will say Christ's Kingdom.
    But I also believe the characteristics of Christ's kingdom at His return, will be much more optimistic that most Premill brethren present in their "Mill-Kingdom', because of the details and characteristics they force themselves to apply to it, based on their assumption of where those above passage they feel must be venued.

    I see Christ's kingdom as the removal of the curse on Creation, as Paul taught in ROmans 8 and Peter taught in chapter 3, and Luke taught in Acts 3, and John taught in Revelation 11 and 21-22.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The issue is that you think some folks survive the process from old to nhne
    Indeed everybody who is alive remains alive.

    How does anyone survive the transformation to the NHNE at the 2nd coming? No one survives not even the old earth itself.....
    Here is where you are getting confused.
    Are you the same you who became a Christian?
    You are a new you, but you are also a continuation of the old you.
    When it says the old earth and old heaven are gone, it is talking about powers and principalities and systems. Remember our fight is not against flesh and blood etc.
    We are trasnformed and clothed in immortality so we live, but also there are the nations which are gathered (as per MAtt 25 which highlights that some survive.)

    If you wrongly suggest that that those who are changed in a twinkling are evidence of survivors, they would still need to die to be made incorruptible, it is appointed to die, the wages of sin death and so on. Though the verse being changed in a twinkling refers the dead being changed from the grave.

    In addition, again if you wrongly suggest that I thess 4 speaks of survivors after the 2nd coming it is in contraction to the points above. Everyone dies!!! and everyone needs to die to be changed!!! The alive and remain are those dead resurrected made alive from the grave and remain as the wicked are cast out.

    And if you wrongly suggest that Zech speaks of those left from the nations are living survivors of the 2nd coming again the above. Those "left" or remain does not preclude them from still dying.
    As Zechariah and Isaiah, just to mention two have people living (as does Jesus in Matt 25, I think I will go with those prophets and passages.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Of course, my position will not make sense to you since you confuse the holy city with the NHNE. When you recognise that they are different, then you'll be opened to a whole new way of understanding the Millennium. The holy city (New Jerusalem) is not attached to the NHNE - any such assumption is folly.

    This is my position:

    1. The holy city descends at the inception of the Millennial kingdom. This is where the Lord's Throne is.
    2. At the end of the MK, the GWTJ is set up, then this old heaven and earth flee from the face of the righteous Judge (Rev 20:11) and is replaced by the NHNE.
    3. After all that offends are judged and cast into the lake of fire - God the Father comes down to earth and dwells with us.
    Trivalee, the Holy city comes down on a NHNE.

    Rev 21
    Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband



    Peter looked for a NHNE at the promise of his coming.

    8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

    10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

    11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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