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Thread: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

  1. #91
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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    See post #83.
    Read and responding. You didn't actually deal with the point except to say it isn't figurative. Well is us being a new creation simply figurative?

    I don't know what you believe you've proved regarding Rev 20:11? I have expounded on the reason this present heaven and earth will be replaced and it has nothing to do with Jesus defeating the powers and principalities of the air.
    I simply highlighted that your chronological claim is not supported by the scripture.

    I'm glad you mentioned Rev 12 ("Now has the kingdom of God come..."). As I've pointed out earlier, the kingdom of God is not NHNE. If you fail to understand the meaning, the difference between these different concepts, you will run into trouble and what you're grappling with. As a clever bloke, you present an argument that ostensibly appears logical to the unlearned, but falls apart when compared with scripture by the discerning...
    The NHNE comes about BECAUSE of the KoG. The KoG clears out heaven, so making it a NH. therefore the two are intertwined.
    The KoG then clears out the earth, so making it a NE.
    The NHNE is where the KoG will be.
    However you seem to be arguing a strawman with yourself as I haven't claimed they are the same thing.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Someone else suggested it is parenthetical, the problem is the reference to them being outside, is being outside the place where the Tree of Life is, which means it is DURING the NHNE when the NJ is on earth. So parenthetical or not, it is about the future situation, and this then means it is not about the present people. we don;t wash our robes, we are given new robes.


    Let's look at this from verse 6 to the end of the chapter then.

    Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
    7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
    8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
    9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
    10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
    18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
    21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    Look at all of the verses in here that are clearly parenthetical, thus have nothing to do with when the NHNE and NJ actually arrive. Meaning these things are not things that will take place during that era of time. It is in this context where we find verse 14 and 15. What should we make of it then?


    Verse 15 says...For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    Maybe we should interpret that in light of the following.

    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Would not the LOF be without the city?

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Ok but think this through logically, if the NJ continues into the NHNE, will death and sorrow still be found *OUTSIDE the City* during the NHNE?
    By turning my post into one-liners you make it difficult for others to follow my argument.

    Your question proves that you still have understood the proper chronology of the NJ and NHNE. As I've stated several times, 1000 years separates the holy city and NHNE. When the NHNE comes, sorrow and death will no longer be found because they have been judged at the GWTJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    By turning my post into one-liners you make it difficult for others to follow my argument.
    Correct it is Ludicrous to argue that the NHNE starts at the beginning of the MK but it is also Ludacris to argue the same for the NJ, the main reason is that there clearly is a temple during the MK(see Ezekiel's temple) and there is None in the NJ or more accurately Godhead and the Lamb are the temples. So clearly you have the Godhead on earth before the GWTJ and Before the NHNE(see Rev 21:22) when wickedness and death still exist. Also Clearly, if the NJ is present during the NHNE there is no death Anywhere in or out the city right??
    See my previous posts.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Yes it is as stated in Rev 22:15
    Rev 22:14* Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.*
    Rev 22:15* Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
    I don't see anything in here about people outside still dying in that passage do you?.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Notice very clearly the NJ is here with the tree of life, and therefore this is DURING the NHNE.
    Yup during the NHNE not the MK.




    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually it is NOT ludicrous to suggest that.
    It takes a bit of discernment and thinking.
    However for one we KNOW the NJ and NHNE start at the beginning of the MK as Isaiah 65 & 66 testify:
    Isa 65:17* “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.*
    Isa 65:18* But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.*
    Isa 65:19* I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.*


    Are you really claiming there will be TWO NHNEs?
    Are you really claiming this isn't at the START of MK?
    Are you really saying the words stated here are NOT the SAME as stated in Rev 21?
    Rev 21:3* And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.*
    Rev 21:4* He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”


    Isa 66:22* “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain.*
    Isa 66:23* From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.*


    Is this not the same NHNE?
    It's your own fault for being unable to separate what is said about *Jerusalem* and what is said about the *NHNE*. Nowhere in Isaiah 65-66 is death mentioned as existing in the NHNE, it is mentioned as happening exclusively in the city *Jerusalem* which destroys your whole position about Death not happening in the NJ. No need for 2 different NHNE both refers to the same thing but Isaiah 65:18 - Isaiah 66:22 speaks about what God will do before the NHNE not After. So none of your problems exist in my position because I don't apply what is said in Isaiah 65:20 to the NHNE it's about Jerusalem during the MK. So no death in the NHNE


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Ezekiel 47 speaks of the River of life coming from out of the temple.
    Rev 22 tells us it comes from the throne of God.


    Your main claim seems to revolve around the idea that there is no temple in the NJ.
    Well you are right and you are wrong.


    You are clearly wrong because Jesus and God are the temple, so there is one.
    You are right because there is not one made by human hands.
    You are wrong though because what IS the temple? The one made by human hands is a copy or shadow of the REAL temple which is in heaven.
    Pretty sure I said that the Godhead and the Lamb are the temple.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Here though is a seeming contradiction:
    Rev 7:15* “Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.*


    This verse speaks clearly of God's temple and it is speaking about those who come out of the Great Tribulation and so is speaking of DURING the time of the MK and being in temple of God.
    Yet note, the temple is where His throne is.


    Rev 11:19* Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple.
    Here we have God's temple seen in heaven. This is the Temple not built with human hands.
    It is where His throne is.


    So we find that the Throne of God IS the heavenly temple, and that this heavenly temple IS on earth in the NJ in the NHNE.
    Honestly this last part is just a jumbled mess to me, there is a temple during the MK then there is a new temple (the Godhead & the lamb) during the NHNE located in the NJ. My views do not, therefore, have the *contradictions* yours does.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The problem has always been our understanding and interpretation of scripture. You've just cited Rev 21-22 and threw in Isaiah 65 for good measure. But it is clear as day that your understanding of these scriptures is questionable.
    Maybe my understanding is questionable if that's what you want to think. And even if it is, it's not like yours isn't as well. I don't exactly see a whole lot of folks agreeing with your understanding of some of these things either.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Besides the fact that they're found in the same passage you mean? Clearly, the NHNE is mentioned immediately before the coming of the NJ in Rev 21:1-7. I'm just saying again the contradiction you believe exist still isn't solved by moving up the timing of the NJ so i don't think you should do it at all it's not needed.
    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    Now tell me, do you believe that the resurrections into LIFE and DAMNATION will occur at the same time? If you agree that 1000 years separate the resurrection of life (first resurrection) and that of the wicked (second resurrection) then you will understand that not all prophecies like Rev 21:1-7 and Isaiah 65 (which some use to claim that NJ and NHNE come at the same time) sometimes provides clues elsewhere to clarify their chronology.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Of course the NJ is not the NHNE. Is anyone even suggesting that it is? But that doesn't take away the fact, that the NJ resides within the NHNE. But if you disagree with that you are suggesting that either there won't be a NJ for forever, or that there won't be a NHNE for forever. But if both are for forever, how then can you have one without the other?
    The NJ and NHNE will last forever. But that, however, doesn't mean they start at the same time.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    Now tell me, do you believe that the resurrections into LIFE and DAMNATION will occur at the same time? If you agree that 1000 years separate the resurrection of life (first resurrection) and that of the wicked (second resurrection) then you will understand that not all prophecies like Rev 21:1-7 and Isaiah 65 (which some use to claim that NJ and NHNE come at the same time) sometimes provides clues elsewhere to clarify their chronology.
    Yes, I do believe the ressurection onto life and the ressurection onto Damnation happen at the same time, so no this does not help me understand why you believe the moving of the NJ to the start of the MK is needed.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I don't see anything in here about people outside still dying in that passage do you?.
    What happens to sinners?

    Yup during the NHNE not the MK.
    Problem the Tree of Life is here DURING the MK, just read Ezekiel 47.

    It's your own fault for being unable to seperate what is said about *Jerusalem* and what is said about the *NHNE*. No where in Isaiah 65-66 is death mentioned as exisiting in the NHNE, it is mentioned as happening exclusively in the city *Jerusalem* which destroys your whole position about Death not happening in the NJ. No need for 2 different NHNE both refer to the same thing but Isaiah 65:18 - Isaiah 66:25 speaks about what God will do before the NHNE.
    Really, no death mentioned in the NHNE in Isaiah 65 and 66?
    I think you are basing this on Isaiah 65:20 however this verse doesn't speak of IN the NJ. I know some translations use the word "in", but there is no "in" in the Hebrew:
    There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. (KJV)

    No longer will a nursing infant live but a few days, or an old man not live out his days. For the youth will die at a hundred years, and he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (BSB)

    Neither shall there be there any more a child that dies untimely, or an old man who shall not complete his time: for the youth shall be a hundred years old, and the sinner who dies at a hundred years shall also be accursed: (Septuagint Translation)

    Also note what is stated here:
    Isa 65:25* The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,” says the LORD.

    Did you notice that this speaks of the serpent STILL eating dust. This means the curse for the serpent is still NOT lifted. There is no death in the NJ, but there is outside.

    This also creates a further problem for you as Jerusalem is clearly IN the NHNE, which means IF you have death occurring in Jerusalem then this means it occurs in the NHNE, so your own stance shows that there is death in the NHNE contrary to what I quoted you as saying.

    Honestly this last part is just a jumbled mess to me, there is a temple during the MK then there is a new temple (the Godhead & the lamb) during the NHNE located in the NJ.
    I'll put it as simply as possible for you.
    God is in the temple right now.
    However it is NOT a temple on earth, nor built with human hands, so it is NOT the temple that John saw earlier in Rev 11.
    It IS the Throne of God.
    So in Rev 22 when John sees the Throne of God he is seeing the temple from heaven. It just sin;t the temple of Man which he had previously seen.
    This is why Ezekiel states the River of Life as flowing from the temple, whilst John says the Throne of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Yes, I do believe the ressurection onto life and the ressurection onto Damnation happen at the same time, so no this does not help me understand why you believe the moving of the NJ to the start of the MK is needed.
    I believe this too! We have agreement about something.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

    This verse establishes the context of what follows in ch 21 and 22. Why is the NHNE even mentioned if it has zero to do with what follows in these last two chapters?

    Maybe give Isaiah 60 a reread when you have time. Compare some of it to Rev 21-22. The timing is during the NHNE. Then consider Isaiah 60:12 in light of that.
    The fact you stated that Rev 21:1 "establishes the context of what follows in ch 21 and 22" clearly shows you believe that chapter 21 & 22 follow in chronology. This tells me you are far away from coming to terms with John's narrative of these concluding events.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Let's look at this from verse 6 to the end of the chapter then.

    Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
    7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
    8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
    9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
    10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
    18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
    21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    Look at all of the verses in here that are clearly parenthetical, thus have nothing to do with when the NHNE and NJ actually arrive. Meaning these things are not things that will take place during that era of time. It is in this context where we find verse 14 and 15. What should we make of it then?

    Verse 15 says...For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    Maybe we should interpret that in light of the following.

    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Would not the LOF be without the city?
    No the LoF is NOT without the city.
    I know some take Isaiah 66 as being the LoF and this speaks of a place outside the city, so I do get why some people think that.
    However the point here is that this speaks of WHEN there is a city to be outside of, which therefore speaks of during the MK.

    Verse 6 - 12 speaks of what IS with verse 11 speaking of continuing UNTIL He comes, which is verse 12, which then leads to verse 13 speaking of who He is, and verse 14 speaking of the reward which He will bring which therefore speaks of the MK, which verse 15 also speaks of.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Someone else suggested it is parenthetical, the problem is the reference to them being outside, is being outside the place where the Tree of Life is, which means it is DURING the NHNE when the NJ is on earth. So parenthetical or not, it is about the future situation, and this then means it is not about the present people. we don;t wash our robes, we are given new robes.

    Why can't it simply be a prophetic warning that has either a blessing to it, or a curse to it?

    The blessing....Do My commandments in this age and I will reward you in the next age with having right to the tree of life, that you may enter in through the gates into the city.

    The curse...Don't do My commandments in this age and I will reward you in the next age with being without the city where are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. That being in the LOF according to Revelation 21:8.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    What happens to sinners?
    They are excluded from ever entering God presence found in the NJ.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Problem the Tree of Life is here DURING the MK, just read Ezekiel 47.
    I will agree that the tree of Life is mentioned in Ezekiel 47


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Really, no death mentioned in the NHNE in Isaiah 65 and 66?
    I think you are basing this on Isaiah 65:20 however this verse doesn't speak of IN the NJ. I know some translations use the word "in", but there is no "in" in the Hebrew:
    There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. (KJV)

    No longer will a nursing infant live but a few days, or an old man not live out his days. For the youth will die at a hundred years, and he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (BSB)

    Neither shall there be there any more a child that dies untimely, or an old man who shall not complete his time: for the youth shall be a hundred years old, and the sinner who dies at a hundred years shall also be accursed: (Septuagint Translation)

    Also note what is stated here:
    Isa 65:25* The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,” says the LORD.

    Did you notice that this speaks of the serpent STILL eating dust. This means the curse for the serpent is still NOT lifted. There is no death in the NJ, but there is outside.

    This also creates a further problem for you as Jerusalem is clearly IN the NHNE, which means IF you have death occurring in Jerusalem then this means it occurs in the NHNE, so your own stance shows that there is death in the NHNE contrary to what I quoted you as saying.
    No, you're still not presenting problems for my position. My position is that death still exist during the MK in Jerusalem and in the world, but that in the NHNE death does not exisit in the NJ or in the World basically NO Death at all. The last enemy Jesus defeats is death so this must happen at the End of the MK then he returns the Kingdom of God to the father and God is All in All (1 Cor 15:24-28) so once more my position is that Isaiah 65:20 applies to the City during the MK not the NJ. Also i still don't get how the above helps your position that there is No death in Jersulem but death in the world.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I'll put it as simply as possible for you.
    God is in the temple right now.
    However it is NOT a temple on earth, nor built with human hands, so it is NOT the temple that John saw earlier in Rev 11.
    It IS the Throne of God.
    So in Rev 22 when John sees the Throne of God he is seeing the temple from heaven. It just sin;t the temple of Man which he had previously seen.
    This is why Ezekiel states the River of Life as flowing from the temple, whilst John says the Throne of God.
    We disagree about the temple during the MK you believe it is the Lamb and Godhead in the NJ, but i believe that the temple during the MK is *Christ + Church* (Ephesians 2:21).


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I believe this too! We have agreement about something.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Why can't it simply be a prophetic warning that has either a blessing to it, or a curse to it?

    The blessing....Do My commandments in this age and I will reward you in the next age with having right to the tree of life, that you may enter in through the gates into the city.

    The curse...Don't do My commandments in this age and I will reward you in the next age with being without the city where are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. That being in the LOF according to Revelation 21:8.
    It IS a prophetic warning. For it to be a VALID prophetic warning it means that they will be outside the city. However this is NOT stated as being in the LoF. If Jesus had wanted to say the LoF, then He could have done so especially as Rev 20 mentions the fate of those who are judged.
    the comparative WITHIN the example is INSIDE the city, which has the Tree of Life, or OUTSIDE the city which has the sinners.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The NJ and NHNE will last forever. But that, however, doesn't mean they start at the same time.
    Correct but the question is Does Rev 22:15 create a contradiction for the time when the NJ+NHNE are both active and death is Gone from Both locations?

    If no, then no need to move the NJ to the start of the MK.

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