Page 1 of 16 123456789101112 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 239

Thread: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,900
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    It has occurred to me that the concept and makeup of the Millennial Kingdom require a closer look. Matters arising from another OP has forced me to really question what the Millennium entails, it's composition, etc. Generally, we all accept that it is a thousand-year earthly reign of Christ with his saints on earth, with Jerusalem as capital where the Lord will pitch his Throne.

    That said, what is the Millennium Kingdom?


    • Will it cover the whole earth or just Israel and Jerusalem?
    • The majority (myself included) believe that the New Jerusalem [the holy city] will descend at the inception of the MK. I recognise that some disagree with this view and believe that it will come down after the 1000 years are over.
    • From Isaiah 65:20 we learn that death will occur in the Millennium. Yet in Rev 21 and 22 we learn also that death and sorrow will not be found in the holy city.


    Rev 22:14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15Outside [the holy city/New Jerusalem] are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

    If wickedness, sin and death are found outside the holy city - what then do we understand by "outside" of the holy city? I would say it denotes the rest of the world as we know it. Consequently, it begs the question, is the rest of the world at that time be part of the Millennial Kingdom or not?

    For those who deny that the holy city will start from the beginning of the Millennium, how do they explain a scenario where no boundary exists between Jerusalem where Jesus and his saints dwell and the rest of the world with its inherent evil and wickedness? At least in Rev 21:12-21, we know that the holy city will have gates (as a demarcation from the rest of the world) with angels presumably to keep reprobate freeloaders at bay.

    Your thoughts are welcome.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,952
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    I see the MK as connecting directly with the kingdom stated in Dan 2:35 an d 2:44 and Dan 7: 13 & 14, 27.
    This shows us a Kingdom which destroys the ruling Kingdom, in effect taking its place.
    However it is also noted as an expanding kingdom, and we are told that the other beast kingdoms will remain for a season (Dan 7:12).
    So the NJ is the center of this new kingdom, and that the saints then rule over an increasing kingdom.
    Then the MK ends and Satan is released, and the test is for those who were ruled whether the stick with Jesus, and so flee to the camp of God (around the city) or if they join Satan.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,900
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I see the MK as connecting directly with the kingdom stated in Dan 2:35 an d 2:44 and Dan 7: 13 & 14, 27.
    This shows us a Kingdom which destroys the ruling Kingdom, in effect taking its place.
    However it is also noted as an expanding kingdom, and we are told that the other beast kingdoms will remain for a season (Dan 7:12).
    So the NJ is the center of this new kingdom, and that the saints then rule over an increasing kingdom.
    Then the MK ends and Satan is released, and the test is for those who were ruled whether the stick with Jesus, and so flee to the camp of God (around the city) or if they join Satan.
    I concur with Dan 2:35, Dan 2:44 and Dan 7:13 & 14, 27.
    However, regarding Dan 7:12 you have the order reversed. It is not their kingdoms that remain since they are taken away, rather it's the 'beasts lives' that are prolonged for a season.

    Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    6,613

    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It has occurred to me that the concept and makeup of the Millennial Kingdom require a closer look. Matters arising from another OP has forced me to really question what the Millennium entails, it's composition, etc. Generally, we all accept that it is a thousand-year earthly reign of Christ with his saints on earth, with Jerusalem as capital where the Lord will pitch his Throne.

    That said, what is the Millennium Kingdom?


    • Will it cover the whole earth or just Israel and Jerusalem?
    • The majority (myself included) believe that the New Jerusalem [the holy city] will descend at the inception of the MK. I recognise that some disagree with this view and believe that it will come down after the 1000 years are over.
    • From Isaiah 65:20 we learn that death will occur in the Millennium. Yet in Rev 21 and 22 we learn also that death and sorrow will not be found in the holy city.


    Rev 22:14[FONT="]Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15[/FONT][FONT="]Outside [the holy city/New Jerusalem] are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.[/FONT]

    If wickedness, sin and death are found outside the holy city - what then do we understand by "outside" of the holy city? I would say it denotes the rest of the world as we know it. Consequently, it begs the question, is the rest of the world at that time be part of the Millennial Kingdom or not?

    For those who deny that the holy city will start from the beginning of the Millennium, how do they explain a scenario where no boundary exists between Jerusalem where Jesus and his saints dwell and the rest of the world with its inherent evil and wickedness? At least in Rev 21:12-21, we know that the holy city will have gates (as a demarcation from the rest of the world) with angels presumably to keep reprobate freeloaders at bay.

    Your thoughts are welcome.
    Where do you place the vision of Ezekiel 40-48 in relation to the above?

    Do you think it occurs before the New Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven, or
    do you think Ezekiel 40-48 is a parallel vision of Rev 21-22, or
    do you think Ezekiel 40-48 was only a vision of what could have happened, and was discarded and replaced with a better temple in the 1st Century, or
    do you think Ezekiel 40-48 occurs some other way?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,896

    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It has occurred to me that the concept and makeup of the Millennial Kingdom require a closer look. Matters arising from another OP has forced me to really question what the Millennium entails, it's composition, etc. Generally, we all accept that it is a thousand-year earthly reign of Christ with his saints on earth, with Jerusalem as capital where the Lord will pitch his Throne.

    That said, what is the Millennium Kingdom?


    • Will it cover the whole earth or just Israel and Jerusalem?
    • The majority (myself included) believe that the New Jerusalem [the holy city] will descend at the inception of the MK. I recognise that some disagree with this view and believe that it will come down after the 1000 years are over.
    • From Isaiah 65:20 we learn that death will occur in the Millennium. Yet in Rev 21 and 22 we learn also that death and sorrow will not be found in the holy city.


    Rev 22:14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15Outside [the holy city/New Jerusalem] are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

    If wickedness, sin and death are found outside the holy city - what then do we understand by "outside" of the holy city? I would say it denotes the rest of the world as we know it. Consequently, it begs the question, is the rest of the world at that time be part of the Millennial Kingdom or not?

    For those who deny that the holy city will start from the beginning of the Millennium, how do they explain a scenario where no boundary exists between Jerusalem where Jesus and his saints dwell and the rest of the world with its inherent evil and wickedness? At least in Rev 21:12-21, we know that the holy city will have gates (as a demarcation from the rest of the world) with angels presumably to keep reprobate freeloaders at bay.

    Your thoughts are welcome.
    It is clear from scriptures like Isaiah Chapter 14 and Ezekiel Chapter 28 that Lucifer, the Covering Angel, ruled this earth. For reasons given in these Chapters, Lucifer, at some point, decided that he, in his created excellence, could be like God. The gory details of what happened after that have been studied and argued at length. But suffice to say that God decided to replace Lucifer with another created being - mankind.

    In order to avoid the debacle of Lucifer, God made man in His image and likeness, and put him in front of a Tree that, when the fruit was eaten, would impart the divine nature of God. With this ammunition, the man was given two duties;
    1. To SUBDUE the earth. This word "subdue" implies that a rebellion or revolt of some sort was still in progress. This proves correct when we see that not only is Lucifer and "Adversary" (the meaning of Satan), but he has command over one third of the angles and the demons. Added to this, Lucifer had free access to the Garden of Fellowship between God and His man.
    2. To RULE the earth. The word "rule" is active. It implies that there will be constant decisions to be made and constant problems which have to be settled.

    Now, we all know the tragic events of Eden. Man succumbed to the wiles of Satan and entered into rebellion with Satan for the very same reason as Satan. He was tempted to be like God. The ensuing poison that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil imparted, PLUS his transgression against the Almighty, caused an intrinsic change in Adam and he passed this on to all men in accordance with Genesis 1:11-12.

    4,000 years later another Man was born to a woman in the normal way but was not seed of Adam. He is Seed of the Holy Spirit and thus possessed, from the moment of inception. the divine nature of God. He is given TWO duties by His heavenly Father.
    1. Deal with sin and sins judicially by becoming an innocent but voluntary Substitute
    2. Take up where Adam failed - to SUBDUE and RULE the earth and its environs

    God had chosen a Nation among all the nations to use as His vehicle to bring heavenly SUBJUGATION and heavenly RULE to this chaotic earth. This Nation, Israel, had been 1,500 years in the making, but by the time of the Son of God's advent, it was in crisis. It had miserably failed to brings God's Law even to its own territory, let alone fill the earth with God's RULE. Nevertheless, God had promised this Messiah and He sent Him. This Messiah called Jesus offered the Kingdom of Heavenly RULE to this Nation but was abjectly refused and murdered.

    God is never surprised by anything, so, to display greater glory, He sets aside another 2,000 years to raise up a New People - the Church. The basis for this New People is twofold. They must (i) apply the judicial solution of their sin and sins by embracing and confessing the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ, and (ii) they must undergo a totally new and birth of the human spirit to impart the divine life needed for the job and sonship to God to make them HEIRS with Jesus Christ. This new people are to use their time on earth NOT for SUBDUING and RULING, but for TRAINING in righteousness and obedience. Many enjoy the forgiveness of sin and sins but object to self-denial of the good things the world under the rulership of Satan.

    After these 2,000 years God commissions His Son Jesus to return to earth, select His co-kings from among the self-denying, righteous and obedient Christians, and destroy the established rule of the Gentiles militarily. This is predicted in the book of Daniel clearly. The Kingdom that Jesus Christ sets up is an "everlasting" Kingdom. But in accordance with God's righteousness, and His glorious ability to deal with all situations sovereignly, He divides this everlasting Kingdom into TWO PHASES

    The FIRST PHASE is a TIME to SUBDUE God's enemies. The enemies of God are Satan, his angels, demons, fallen men, a defiled earth and physical death. This first PHASE is to last ONE THOUSAND YEARS. It starts with the military defeat of the combined armies of the Gentiles in the Valley of Jezreel at Megiddo about 70 miles west of Jerusalem. It continues with a visit to Edom to judge the nation of Esau for being brothers with Israel but helping the Gentiles when Israel was chastised. Then, the Lord Jesus' Throne is set up and THE LIVING of these Nations are judged. Then follows a THOUSAND YEARS of a rule called, "the rule of the rod of iron". The reason for this is that the Nations who survive the Great Tribulation are still in the flesh and possess the Adamic nature. The members of the Nations will ALWAYS TEND to evil, as they do now. They will fawn over Christ in this ONE THOUSAND YEARS, but secretly hate Him. They are prone to rebellion and deception and this is shown by the great percentage of their immediate joining of Satan at the end of this MILLENNIUM in rebellion. They must be SUBDUED during this MILLENNIUM by immediate and commensurate justice and retribution for any infraction against their fellow man, against nature and and against God and His King, Jesus.

    Because this MILLENNIUM is on the earth as we know it, the earth has been defiled and is cursed. This defilement by illegal shedding of blood, sexual sin and idol worship needs to be overturned. So God's Son, the Man Jesus, enforces righteousness, equity and total worship at God only. Added to this, because of His shed blood that "speaks better things than that of Abel", God is judicially allowed to overturn His curse, and the cursed earth is SUBDUED in this MILLENNIUM (Romans Chapter 8). One chastisement remains for those who refuse to pay homage to Emanuel in Jerusalem. God will hold back the rain on their ground. But throughout the whole earth the climate will be amenable to bumper harvests.

    The Nations are still in the flesh during this time and will, as always, tend to violence. The Lord Jesus will ban the manufacture of weapons, and all existing weapons will be reconstructed into agricultural implements. War will be banned and as the Covenant of the Rainbow is still in force while there is summer and winter, there will be the immediate and just killing of any man or woman who rises up in violence. But this brings us to the LAST THING TO BE SUBDUED - death.

    Throughout this ONE THOUSAND YEAR KINGDOM of the old earth - the one we know now, children will be born to the nations and live long lives under a very just and pleasant. But, no doubt, each generation will have to learn they same lessons. The death penalty, and the natural death toll of un-resurrected men and women means that death still abounds. And at the end of this ONE THOUSAND years Kingdom on earth, the Adversary is loosed from his subterranean prison and shackles to test this Kingdom. The question in eveybody's mind will be, "if we return to the status quo of this age, would this Kingdom survive?" The Almighty is unafraid of such tests. It is men who forever must know their limitations when going against the Almighty. So a new lesson is learned. The Adversary with a huge army of rebels goes up against Jerusalem. This rebellion led by Magog and Gog, is summarily put down by the "Protector" of the righteous rule on earth. The rebellion is quashed - but the death toll is enormous. So, until the end of the MILLENNIUM death remains UN-SUBDUED.

    Christ's resurrection was proof that all sin had been put away. God has the judicial right to apply Christ's death any way He wishes. So a GENERAL RESURRECTION is effected. All dead men languishing in Hades, and all the demons languishing in the sea, are called to life. Every dead man from Cain to the last to die in the battle of Magog will "stand". And immediately they are judged according to works as the "stand" before the White Throne. Death - the LAST ENEMY IS SUBDUED. And it is at this point that he SECOND PHASE of this everlasting kingdom will be introduced. But before we go there, one more very important fact concerning the MILLENNIUM must be shown.

    God, in His wisdom, knows that men with a free will will inevitably seek what is profitable for them selves. Adam and Eve, unburdened by sin and in perfect fellowship with God before the fall, made a decision against God because it looked like it would profit them. So God sets the MILLENNIUM - the FIRST THOUSAND YEARS of His Kingdom on earth AS A REWARD. It is a REWARD set before an man who has accepted Jesus Christ and confessed Him. The Christian feels pain like any other man, and he will live his whole life making decisions for, or against God. If he makes decisions for God he will suffer under the present Gentile rule. If he makes decisions against his flesh, he will suffer loss of pleasure. The Lord has set the MILLENNIUM as a REWARD for those who, (i) love His Son Jesus unconditionally, (ii) love God unconditionally, (iii) are meek to accept unjust suffering, (iv) are faithful to leave their lives in enemy territory in the hands of God even if this results in death, (v) are obedient even when they don't understand the command, (vi) will deny their souls and bodies unto death, (vii) be zealous for the Kingdom at all costs. The MILLENNIUM will take place. The question is, "will you be accounted WORTHY of it?"

    The SECOND PHASE of this everlasting Kingdom is initiated by
    1. Having subdued ALL ENEMIES including death
    2. Having completed the Church as both RULER and BRIDE with Christ
    3. Having has Israel keep the Law under the new Covenant for a thousand years
    4. Changing the earth to a PRISTINE condition by purging it with fire
    5. Changing the heavens, which were polluted by Satan's rebellion, to a PRISTINE condition
    6. Bringing a RULE from heaven to earth that is perfect within the bounds of what God allowed

    The SECOND PHASE of the Kingdom of God is an everlasting rule ON EARTH in PRISTINE conditions and a fully SUBDUED creation.

    The New Jerusalem is a multi-faceted "sign" of God's consummated work in bring men into the image and likeness of God and RULING the earth Gods way. God is glorified in this City. Christ is glorified in this City. All enemies are SUBDUED and in their judicially correct place. The Church glorifies God, satisfies Christ as a Bride and RULES equitously. Israel continue their duty of protecting the City and House of God from profane things, as they did in the Millennium. The Devil and his angels languish in a Lake of suffering. Those men who did not actively come against God are permitted to enter and enjoy the leaves of the Tree of Life. They will not posses eternal life, so Christ's actions and works are their sustenance. Those who actively opposed God join the fallen angels and demons in torment. They are all alive but in exquisite mental and physical pain. This pain is a combination of their appreciation of their loss PLUS retributive torment added by God (Matt.10:28).

    P.S. Please excuse typos etc. It got long and it got late here and I haven't proof read it.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    ADELAIDE / South Australia
    Posts
    3,873

    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It has occurred to me that the concept and makeup of the Millennial Kingdom require a closer look.
    Very Good, it does.

    So where do we start in the scriptures ?


    Jesus own words would be a good place to start.


    What did he have to say about it when he spoke about his second coming and the end of the age??.


    Did he allude to a future 1000 years of mortality and ultimate misery? Or did he allude to the exact opposite, being the inheriting of what was prepared from the foundation of the perfect world?
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    4,932
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Where do you place the vision of Ezekiel 40-48 in relation to the above?

    Do you think it occurs before the New Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven, or
    do you think Ezekiel 40-48 is a parallel vision of Rev 21-22, or
    I see both. The vision of the temple within the city stays constant. It will be here before and after the second coming.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    4,932
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It has occurred to me that the concept and makeup of the Millennial Kingdom require a closer look. Matters arising from another OP has forced me to really question what the Millennium entails, it's composition, etc. Generally, we all accept that it is a thousand-year earthly reign of Christ with his saints on earth, with Jerusalem as capital where the Lord will pitch his Throne.

    That said, what is the Millennium Kingdom?


    • Will it cover the whole earth or just Israel and Jerusalem?
    • The majority (myself included) believe that the New Jerusalem [the holy city] will descend at the inception of the MK. I recognise that some disagree with this view and believe that it will come down after the 1000 years are over.
    • From Isaiah 65:20 we learn that death will occur in the Millennium. Yet in Rev 21 and 22 we learn also that death and sorrow will not be found in the holy city.


    Rev 22:14[FONT="]Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15[/FONT][FONT="]Outside [the holy city/New Jerusalem] are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.[/FONT]

    If wickedness, sin and death are found outside the holy city - what then do we understand by "outside" of the holy city? I would say it denotes the rest of the world as we know it. Consequently, it begs the question, is the rest of the world at that time be part of the Millennial Kingdom or not?

    For those who deny that the holy city will start from the beginning of the Millennium, how do they explain a scenario where no boundary exists between Jerusalem where Jesus and his saints dwell and the rest of the world with its inherent evil and wickedness? At least in Rev 21:12-21, we know that the holy city will have gates (as a demarcation from the rest of the world) with angels presumably to keep reprobate freeloaders at bay.

    Your thoughts are welcome.

    Here are some thoughts to why there can not be a 1000 literal years.

    So why is the number "1000" a metaphor and does not actually mean specifically 1000 years?

    John is trying to quantify a measure of time which is unmeasurable. Now why is it unmeasurable? Well outside this realm wherein the sun, moon, and stars gives us the ability to measure time there is are no instruments to measure time outside this realm. Thus John when speaking of how long Satan is in the pit uses the number 1000.

    Why does John use 1000? Why not 100 or 1 million?

    Well the number 1000 was used in scripture for the same purpose as a metaphor thus the Spirit has John use the same number for consistency. Both instances are used as a metaphor and not a literal 1000 years.

    Peter 3
    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    Rev 20
    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,


    Are there any other scriptures which may show timelessness outside this realm which would support the need to use a metaphor?

    Yes. John himself in trying to determine a length of an event has to surmise at the time prior to the 7th seal being opened. Was John not sure, did not the Spirit give him the specific time? No John could not be sure as time outside this realm is not measured. Though the time was relatively short he knew it was "about" a half hour.

    Rev 20:8
    1. And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

    Now another support is the fact that no one not even Christ himself knows when the when the son of man will come. How is this possible? Well only because the instruments of being able to measure time have vanished, IE the sun, moon and stars.

    Mark 13
    31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.


    Other events contradict the possibility of a literal 1000 years.

    The resurrection of the dead both godly and ungodly occurs on the same day and not 1000+ years apart. Actually the saved are judged also at the GWT
    Are there really two little seasons? We see one in Rev 6 before Christs returns? Are they different or really the same time?
    Are there really two instances whereby an entity comes up from the bottomless pit? We see a beast come up AFTER 3.5 years referenced in Rev 11 and Rev 17. Which beast could this possibly be? The other beasts are already on earth. Also is the pit really like a revolving door? Open and shut, and open and shut again and then opened one last time?
    Does not IS 14 already so Satan in the pit prior to the 2nd coming? Does he go down twice?
    Are there really two great battles which take place whereby the whole world is gathered?. We see the battle of the great day in Rev 16 and another in Rev 20, different or the same?
    Does not the earth burn with unquenchable fire at the presence of the Lord at his return. Does not the sun, moon, stars and old earth roll up as a scroll at the 2nd coming? Thus the old earth passes away and a new earth would replace it. Is the supposed millennium with a new earth?
    Where is there any other support in scripture for a literal 1000 year period after Christ returns?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitt Meadows b.c.
    Posts
    4,965
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It has occurred to me that the concept and makeup of the Millennial Kingdom require a closer look. Matters arising from another OP has forced me to really question what the Millennium entails, it's composition, etc. Generally, we all accept that it is a thousand-year earthly reign of Christ with his saints on earth, with Jerusalem as capital where the Lord will pitch his Throne.

    That said, what is the Millennium Kingdom?


    • Will it cover the whole earth or just Israel and Jerusalem?
    • The majority (myself included) believe that the New Jerusalem [the holy city] will descend at the inception of the MK. I recognise that some disagree with this view and believe that it will come down after the 1000 years are over.
    • From Isaiah 65:20 we learn that death will occur in the Millennium. Yet in Rev 21 and 22 we learn also that death and sorrow will not be found in the holy city.


    Rev 22:14[FONT="]Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15[/FONT][FONT="]Outside [the holy city/New Jerusalem] are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.[/FONT]

    If wickedness, sin and death are found outside the holy city - what then do we understand by "outside" of the holy city? I would say it denotes the rest of the world as we know it. Consequently, it begs the question, is the rest of the world at that time be part of the Millennial Kingdom or not?

    For those who deny that the holy city will start from the beginning of the Millennium, how do they explain a scenario where no boundary exists between Jerusalem where Jesus and his saints dwell and the rest of the world with its inherent evil and wickedness? At least in Rev 21:12-21, we know that the holy city will have gates (as a demarcation from the rest of the world) with angels presumably to keep reprobate freeloaders at bay.

    Your thoughts are welcome.
    All the others will be in the lake of fire already

    If there is a future MK on the earth why then does revelation chapter 20 if literal not state

    1000 year reign on the earth?

    1000 years of peace?

    Jesus on the earth?

    Satan and his army surrounding Jesus and the saints?

    Jesus going back up to heaven?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,896

    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    The main objections to the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM seem to be;
    1. That this prophecy, among all the others, is NOT LITERAL
    2. That the conditions on earth under the rule of the rod of iron are no better than now

    Point #1 is easily answered. Every single prophecy that has been fulfilled, was fulfilled LITERALLY and accurately. What are the chances that this one won't? The wording concerning this reign of Christ's gives no absurdity, no logic problems, no conflict with the rest of the Bible. It AGREES with all that is said about this Kingdom. Christ came and offered Israel this Kingdom. If it was allegorical, then what is an allegorical Kingdom? If there was no Kingdom, was Christ a liar? Do all the Parables concerning the Kingdom mean nothing? Or is it not as simple as it is written that the "prince of this world" will be thrown out and that his minions are judged, and a NEW KING will rule the earth? These are some of the questions that the "allegorical" Camp must answer. It is a sickness among men that anything that they don't agree with in the Bible must be allegorical. But God is not mocked. The minute you refuse a direct statement of scripture and assign it an allegorical status, you start a chain reaction of ERROR. You go down a path of ever-increasing absurdity. Something like this. "The Kingdom that our Lord sets up on earth is allegorical. Therefore the defeat of Satan morally on the cross was allegorical. Armageddon, where our Lord takes the Kingdom by force and crushes His opponents as Daniel predicted, is allegorical. Satan must therefore be allegorical. The Lake of Fire is allegorical. And if all this be allegorical, then Jesus, redemption, rebirth and co-kingship with Jesus are all allegorical." And so the absurdity is complete and Satan laughs as we Christians trash the Bible.

    Point #2 is the product of men's thoughts who do not read the Bible. It is that men wish for a Utopia UNREASONABLY. In Singapore the crime rate is almost non existent. The City is clean and the medical services work. Water is drinkable and nearly all citizens who work, earn enough. Taxes are low and it is safe for a woman to walk the streets at night. Why? Because the authorities rule with an iron fist. But in this country of low crime, low taxes and safety, are JAILS. Men and women who would injure the average citizen are locked up. Those criminals who would kill and steal and rape ARE UNHAPPY, but the law-abiding citizen is free of danger and injustice. Is Singapore a UTOPIA. NO! There is unhappiness and there are tragedies, but the general tone is one of law and order. And this is what some on this Forum object to?

    The Pagan Roman Catholic teaching is that we die and go to heaven where we walk on golden streets after going through gates of pearl. A fine thought, but does the Bible show this? NO! The Bible shows creatures of God who have exercised their free will FOR EVIL in a Lake of Fire IN SIGHT of other men - for ever (Isa.66:22-24). Although these men and women chose to go up against God, although they freely perpetrated suffering on God and other men, although they had a chance to repent and take a wonderful and expensive way out, they went ahead and shook their fists at God and man. And then, when they land in the Lake of Fire, the bleeding heart Christians on this Forum and elsewhere, call God's justice into question! And then, because the Lake of Fire is a well-documented FACT of the Bible, they accuse God of not having a UTOPIA like the Roman Church. But wait! Is not the Lake of Fire ALLEGORICAL??? And if so, let us eat drink, be merry, murder, steal and worship idols, for the Lake of Fire does not really exist - just like Christ's future rule with the rod of iron for 1,000 years doesn't really exist!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,952
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I concur with Dan 2:35, Dan 2:44 and Dan 7:13 & 14, 27.
    However, regarding Dan 7:12 you have the order reversed. It is not their kingdoms that remain since they are taken away, rather it's the 'beasts lives' that are prolonged for a season.

    Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
    I don't have it reversed.
    The kingdom remains, but the rule (THEIR dominion) over that kingdom is removed.
    A beast represents a kingdom in every prophecy, therefore if its life remains, the kingdom (or nation using modern terms) remains.
    What is removed is the power (the dominion) of that nation.
    These beasts ruled with authority and dominion over other nations, especially over the Jews and Israel.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,900
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It is clear from scriptures like Isaiah Chapter 14 and Ezekiel Chapter 28 that Lucifer, the Covering Angel, ruled this earth. For reasons given in these Chapters, Lucifer, at some point, decided that he, in his created excellence, could be like God. The gory details of what happened after that have been studied and argued at length. But suffice to say that God decided to replace Lucifer with another created being - mankind.

    In order to avoid the debacle of Lucifer, God made man in His image and likeness, and put him in front of a Tree that, when the fruit was eaten, would impart the divine nature of God. With this ammunition, the man was given two duties;
    1. To SUBDUE the earth. This word "subdue" implies that a rebellion or revolt of some sort was still in progress. This proves correct when we see that not only is Lucifer and "Adversary" (the meaning of Satan), but he has command over one third of the angles and the demons. Added to this, Lucifer had free access to the Garden of Fellowship between God and His man.
    2. To RULE the earth. The word "rule" is active. It implies that there will be constant decisions to be made and constant problems which have to be settled.

    Now, we all know the tragic events of Eden. Man succumbed to the wiles of Satan and entered into rebellion with Satan for the very same reason as Satan. He was tempted to be like God. The ensuing poison that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil imparted, PLUS his transgression against the Almighty, caused an intrinsic change in Adam and he passed this on to all men in accordance with Genesis 1:11-12.

    4,000 years later another Man was born to a woman in the normal way but was not seed of Adam. He is Seed of the Holy Spirit and thus possessed, from the moment of inception. the divine nature of God. He is given TWO duties by His heavenly Father.
    1. Deal with sin and sins judicially by becoming an innocent but voluntary Substitute
    2. Take up where Adam failed - to SUBDUE and RULE the earth and its environs

    God had chosen a Nation among all the nations to use as His vehicle to bring heavenly SUBJUGATION and heavenly RULE to this chaotic earth. This Nation, Israel, had been 1,500 years in the making, but by the time of the Son of God's advent, it was in crisis. It had miserably failed to brings God's Law even to its own territory, let alone fill the earth with God's RULE. Nevertheless, God had promised this Messiah and He sent Him. This Messiah called Jesus offered the Kingdom of Heavenly RULE to this Nation but was abjectly refused and murdered.

    God is never surprised by anything, so, to display greater glory, He sets aside another 2,000 years to raise up a New People - the Church. The basis for this New People is twofold. They must (i) apply the judicial solution of their sin and sins by embracing and confessing the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ, and (ii) they must undergo a totally new and birth of the human spirit to impart the divine life needed for the job and sonship to God to make them HEIRS with Jesus Christ. This new people are to use their time on earth NOT for SUBDUING and RULING, but for TRAINING in righteousness and obedience. Many enjoy the forgiveness of sin and sins but object to self-denial of the good things the world under the rulership of Satan.

    After these 2,000 years God commissions His Son Jesus to return to earth, select His co-kings from among the self-denying, righteous and obedient Christians, and destroy the established rule of the Gentiles militarily. This is predicted in the book of Daniel clearly. The Kingdom that Jesus Christ sets up is an "everlasting" Kingdom. But in accordance with God's righteousness, and His glorious ability to deal with all situations sovereignly, He divides this everlasting Kingdom into TWO PHASES

    The FIRST PHASE is a TIME to SUBDUE God's enemies. The enemies of God are Satan, his angels, demons, fallen men, a defiled earth and physical death. This first PHASE is to last ONE THOUSAND YEARS. It starts with the military defeat of the combined armies of the Gentiles in the Valley of Jezreel at Megiddo about 70 miles west of Jerusalem. It continues with a visit to Edom to judge the nation of Esau for being brothers with Israel but helping the Gentiles when Israel was chastised. Then, the Lord Jesus' Throne is set up and THE LIVING of these Nations are judged. Then follows a THOUSAND YEARS of a rule called, "the rule of the rod of iron". The reason for this is that the Nations who survive the Great Tribulation are still in the flesh and possess the Adamic nature. The members of the Nations will ALWAYS TEND to evil, as they do now. They will fawn over Christ in this ONE THOUSAND YEARS, but secretly hate Him. They are prone to rebellion and deception and this is shown by the great percentage of their immediate joining of Satan at the end of this MILLENNIUM in rebellion. They must be SUBDUED during this MILLENNIUM by immediate and commensurate justice and retribution for any infraction against their fellow man, against nature and and against God and His King, Jesus.

    Because this MILLENNIUM is on the earth as we know it, the earth has been defiled and is cursed. This defilement by illegal shedding of blood, sexual sin and idol worship needs to be overturned. So God's Son, the Man Jesus, enforces righteousness, equity and total worship at God only. Added to this, because of His shed blood that "speaks better things than that of Abel", God is judicially allowed to overturn His curse, and the cursed earth is SUBDUED in this MILLENNIUM (Romans Chapter 8). One chastisement remains for those who refuse to pay homage to Emanuel in Jerusalem. God will hold back the rain on their ground. But throughout the whole earth the climate will be amenable to bumper harvests.

    The Nations are still in the flesh during this time and will, as always, tend to violence. The Lord Jesus will ban the manufacture of weapons, and all existing weapons will be reconstructed into agricultural implements. War will be banned and as the Covenant of the Rainbow is still in force while there is summer and winter, there will be the immediate and just killing of any man or woman who rises up in violence. But this brings us to the LAST THING TO BE SUBDUED - death.

    Throughout this ONE THOUSAND YEAR KINGDOM of the old earth - the one we know now, children will be born to the nations and live long lives under a very just and pleasant. But, no doubt, each generation will have to learn they same lessons. The death penalty, and the natural death toll of un-resurrected men and women means that death still abounds. And at the end of this ONE THOUSAND years Kingdom on earth, the Adversary is loosed from his subterranean prison and shackles to test this Kingdom. The question in eveybody's mind will be, "if we return to the status quo of this age, would this Kingdom survive?" The Almighty is unafraid of such tests. It is men who forever must know their limitations when going against the Almighty. So a new lesson is learned. The Adversary with a huge army of rebels goes up against Jerusalem. This rebellion led by Magog and Gog, is summarily put down by the "Protector" of the righteous rule on earth. The rebellion is quashed - but the death toll is enormous. So, until the end of the MILLENNIUM death remains UN-SUBDUED.

    Christ's resurrection was proof that all sin had been put away. God has the judicial right to apply Christ's death any way He wishes. So a GENERAL RESURRECTION is effected. All dead men languishing in Hades, and all the demons languishing in the sea, are called to life. Every dead man from Cain to the last to die in the battle of Magog will "stand". And immediately they are judged according to works as the "stand" before the White Throne. Death - the LAST ENEMY IS SUBDUED. And it is at this point that he SECOND PHASE of this everlasting kingdom will be introduced. But before we go there, one more very important fact concerning the MILLENNIUM must be shown.

    God, in His wisdom, knows that men with a free will will inevitably seek what is profitable for them selves. Adam and Eve, unburdened by sin and in perfect fellowship with God before the fall, made a decision against God because it looked like it would profit them. So God sets the MILLENNIUM - the FIRST THOUSAND YEARS of His Kingdom on earth AS A REWARD. It is a REWARD set before an man who has accepted Jesus Christ and confessed Him. The Christian feels pain like any other man, and he will live his whole life making decisions for, or against God. If he makes decisions for God he will suffer under the present Gentile rule. If he makes decisions against his flesh, he will suffer loss of pleasure. The Lord has set the MILLENNIUM as a REWARD for those who, (i) love His Son Jesus unconditionally, (ii) love God unconditionally, (iii) are meek to accept unjust suffering, (iv) are faithful to leave their lives in enemy territory in the hands of God even if this results in death, (v) are obedient even when they don't understand the command, (vi) will deny their souls and bodies unto death, (vii) be zealous for the Kingdom at all costs. The MILLENNIUM will take place. The question is, "will you be accounted WORTHY of it?"

    The SECOND PHASE of this everlasting Kingdom is initiated by
    1. Having subdued ALL ENEMIES including death
    2. Having completed the Church as both RULER and BRIDE with Christ
    3. Having has Israel keep the Law under the new Covenant for a thousand years
    4. Changing the earth to a PRISTINE condition by purging it with fire
    5. Changing the heavens, which were polluted by Satan's rebellion, to a PRISTINE condition
    6. Bringing a RULE from heaven to earth that is perfect within the bounds of what God allowed

    The SECOND PHASE of the Kingdom of God is an everlasting rule ON EARTH in PRISTINE conditions and a fully SUBDUED creation.

    The New Jerusalem is a multi-faceted "sign" of God's consummated work in bring men into the image and likeness of God and RULING the earth Gods way. God is glorified in this City. Christ is glorified in this City. All enemies are SUBDUED and in their judicially correct place. The Church glorifies God, satisfies Christ as a Bride and RULES equitously. Israel continue their duty of protecting the City and House of God from profane things, as they did in the Millennium. The Devil and his angels languish in a Lake of suffering. Those men who did not actively come against God are permitted to enter and enjoy the leaves of the Tree of Life. They will not posses eternal life, so Christ's actions and works are their sustenance. Those who actively opposed God join the fallen angels and demons in torment. They are all alive but in exquisite mental and physical pain. This pain is a combination of their appreciation of their loss PLUS retributive torment added by God (Matt.10:28).

    P.S. Please excuse typos etc. It got long and it got late here and I haven't proof read it.
    An insightful and exploratory exegesis. I like the way you outlined the two phases of Jesus Christ' Eternal Kingdom and explained why it was necessary to split it into these phases. And you went further to explain the difference between them also. You provided information on stuff we presume to know but haven't thought them out.

    I started this OP to enable us to question and evaluate what we think we know about the Millennium, and you have provided a mindblowing account of God's divine plans for humanity from Adam to the eschaton.

    I hope others enjoy it as much as I have.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,900
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Very Good, it does.

    So where do we start in the scriptures ?


    Jesus own words would be a good place to start.


    What did he have to say about it when he spoke about his second coming and the end of the age??.


    Did he allude to a future 1000 years of mortality and ultimate misery? Or did he allude to the exact opposite, being the inheriting of what was prepared from the foundation of the perfect world?
    Jeff: you posed more questions than you provided answers to the discourse.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,900
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I see both. The vision of the temple within the city stays constant. It will be here before and after the second coming.
    Looks like the temple will be destroyed at some point after Jesus returns because according to Rev 21:22 there will be no temple in the holy city.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,900
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Here are some thoughts to why there can not be a 1000 literal years.

    So why is the number "1000" a metaphor and does not actually mean specifically 1000 years?

    John is trying to quantify a measure of time which is unmeasurable. Now why is it unmeasurable? Well outside this realm wherein the sun, moon, and stars gives us the ability to measure time there is are no instruments to measure time outside this realm. Thus John when speaking of how long Satan is in the pit uses the number 1000.

    Why does John use 1000? Why not 100 or 1 million?

    Well the number 1000 was used in scripture for the same purpose as a metaphor thus the Spirit has John use the same number for consistency. Both instances are used as a metaphor and not a literal 1000 years.

    Peter 3
    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    Rev 20
    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,


    Are there any other scriptures which may show timelessness outside this realm which would support the need to use a metaphor?

    Yes. John himself in trying to determine a length of an event has to surmise at the time prior to the 7th seal being opened. Was John not sure, did not the Spirit give him the specific time? No John could not be sure as time outside this realm is not measured. Though the time was relatively short he knew it was "about" a half hour.

    Rev 20:8
    1. And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

    Now another support is the fact that no one not even Christ himself knows when the when the son of man will come. How is this possible? Well only because the instruments of being able to measure time have vanished, IE the sun, moon and stars.

    Mark 13
    31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.


    Other events contradict the possibility of a literal 1000 years.

    The resurrection of the dead both godly and ungodly occurs on the same day and not 1000+ years apart. Actually the saved are judged also at the GWT
    Are there really two little seasons? We see one in Rev 6 before Christs returns? Are they different or really the same time?
    Are there really two instances whereby an entity comes up from the bottomless pit? We see a beast come up AFTER 3.5 years referenced in Rev 11 and Rev 17. Which beast could this possibly be? The other beasts are already on earth. Also is the pit really like a revolving door? Open and shut, and open and shut again and then opened one last time?
    Does not IS 14 already so Satan in the pit prior to the 2nd coming? Does he go down twice?
    Are there really two great battles which take place whereby the whole world is gathered?. We see the battle of the great day in Rev 16 and another in Rev 20, different or the same?
    Does not the earth burn with unquenchable fire at the presence of the Lord at his return. Does not the sun, moon, stars and old earth roll up as a scroll at the 2nd coming? Thus the old earth passes away and a new earth would replace it. Is the supposed millennium with a new earth?
    Where is there any other support in scripture for a literal 1000 year period after Christ returns?
    The reference to the 1000 year Millennial kingdom is literal. There is nothing figurative about it. In Rev 20:2 Satan is detained for a literal 1000 years which corroborates with the MK. Let me ask you, do you think that God needs the sun, moon and stars to "measure time"?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 26
    Last Post: Nov 4th 2016, 10:24 PM
  2. Eden and the Millennial Kingdom
    By Trivalee in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: Nov 3rd 2015, 07:23 PM
  3. Millennial Kingdom Animal Sacrifices
    By RCn10ec in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 135
    Last Post: Sep 21st 2013, 10:00 AM
  4. the millennial kingdom
    By locboxx in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 115
    Last Post: Mar 26th 2009, 09:49 PM
  5. Discussion Who are these mortals in the millennial kingdom
    By DIZZY in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 101
    Last Post: Dec 24th 2008, 11:37 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •