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Thread: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

  1. #211
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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The question is whether Daniel understood anything about Jesus Christ? I don't think so. We have seen throughout the scriptures that the Spirit of God enabled men (even heathens) to proclaim and attest to the glory of God and in some cases, mention the Son of God. Let's see an example:

    Dan 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.

    25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.


    Here we have Nebuchadnezzar, a heathen king saying he saw the Son of God, just like Daniel did in (7:13-14). Clearly, they spoke by divine inspiration without themselves comprehending the concept of the "Son of God" as Jesus. So I agree that despite their visions of Jesus, none them knew him.
    It is interesting to me that Daniel wrote on of the most exact messianic prophecies in the OT.
    Dan 9:24-27, also in the furnace, also in chapt 7 and 12.

    Daniel knee of Christ for he wrote of him.
    None of us can judge his personal relationship.

    Daniel also was the teacher over the maji scientists and astronomers.

    Unprovable from silent scripture, but I believe likely His teaching about His knowledge of Messiah was passed down from Maui to maji until the time of Herod, when other faithful believing maji, followwed the Star to Bethlehem, so they could bow down and worship the babe Messiah incarnate.

    Their OT faith in Jesus spoke for itself, regardless of how much details we know of their relationship.

  2. #212
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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    It is interesting to me that Daniel wrote on of the most exact messianic prophecies in the OT.
    Dan 9:24-27, also in the furnace, also in chapt 7 and 12.

    Daniel knee of Christ for he wrote of him.
    None of us can judge his personal relationship.

    Daniel also was the teacher over the maji scientists and astronomers.

    Unprovable from silent scripture, but I believe likely His teaching about His knowledge of Messiah was passed down from Maui to maji until the time of Herod, when other faithful believing maji, followwed the Star to Bethlehem, so they could bow down and worship the babe Messiah incarnate.

    Their OT faith in Jesus spoke for itself, regardless of how much details we know of their relationship.
    Of course Daniel did NOT know Jesus. It is a nonsense to claim he did. We can judge by the FACt that Daniel made no reference to any personal relationship.
    Moreover we have an angel telling Daniel his fate, and it was NOT that Daniel would meet Jesus in the clouds, but that Daniel would rise with the just and the unjust.
    Daniel knew that God had plans through the visions Daniel was given.

    As for the Magi, it may well be true that certain Magi paid attention to what Daniel taught. They weren't looking for Jesus though, but for the fulfillment of a vision that the anointed one, a ruler over the Jews would come.

    No one is denying their OT faith. In fact I for one uphold it, that just as we live by faith, so they too lived by faith.
    We simply have the blessing (undeserved) of knowing Jesus.
    This doesn't make us better than them, it simply means we will receive the things Jesus has said we will, a promise NOT given to them.

  3. #213
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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Your explanation still falls short of proving what you claim. Fortunately, you agree that the large group (presumably OT saints) also had faith and the smaller group you believe is the church. Now, while Jesus was unknown to the OT faithful, that in no way hindered them having a *relationship* with God.
    I never said they had no relationship with God (that is the OT saints). In fact I would argue the opposite, and as Brother mark posted various verses which show they had this relationship.
    However the large group is not made up of only OT saints, it includes ALL those that Paul said would receive eternal life in Romans 2, through doing good. Paul states why they did good, was due to their aim, their faith, their perseverance.

    For example, God himself called Abraham "his friend" (Isaiah 41:8, James 2:23). He called David a man after his own heart. Further, God said he won't do anything without revealing it to his servants and Prophets (Amos 3:7). None of these would have been possible without a relationship with God which despite the absence of the Paraclete, is no different to our relationship with Jesus, enhanced by the Holy Spirit.

    Just as the OT faithful struggled with their relationship with God in the face of prevailing circumstances of their time, the church today is no different despite being aided by the H.S. We face a daily struggle against sin, persecution and everything else out there designed to war against the church.
    The Church has an advantage they didn't. We have Jesus. We have been born from above. There is ONLY ONE way we can lose our salvation, and it isn't by being faithless, but through denial alone.

  4. #214
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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The question is whether Daniel understood anything about Jesus Christ? I don't think so. We have seen throughout the scriptures that the Spirit of God enabled men (even heathens) to proclaim and attest to the glory of God and in some cases, mention the Son of God. Let's see an example:

    Dan 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.

    25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.


    Here we have Nebuchadnezzar, a heathen king saying he saw the Son of God, just like Daniel did in (7:13-14). Clearly, they spoke by divine inspiration without themselves comprehending the concept of the "Son of God" as Jesus. So I agree that despite their visions of Jesus, none them knew him.
    I agree he did not know Jesus, but he did know about God's plan for an anointed one to come, who would set up and rule the Kingdom.
    Some seem to think the two mean the same thing, but I see we are in agreement that they are not.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Of course Daniel did NOT know Jesus. It is a nonsense to claim he did. We can judge by the FACt that Daniel made no reference to any personal relationship.
    Moreover we have an angel telling Daniel his fate, and it was NOT that Daniel would meet Jesus in the clouds, but that Daniel would rise with the just and the unjust.
    Daniel knew that God had plans through the visions Daniel was given.

    As for the Magi, it may well be true that certain Magi paid attention to what Daniel taught. They weren't looking for Jesus though, but for the fulfillment of a vision that the anointed one, a ruler over the Jews would come.

    No one is denying their OT faith. In fact I for one uphold it, that just as we live by faith, so they too lived by faith.
    We simply have the blessing (undeserved) of knowing Jesus.
    This doesn't make us better than them, it simply means we will receive the things Jesus has said we will, a promise NOT given to them.
    I can't agree. (we seem to be at odds frequently lately).

    I see Jesus as just as much their savior as my savior.

    I don't think He put Himself in a box, and waiting until His incarnation to fellowship with faithful believers like Abrham and Daniel, etc...and that is why all of the scriptures you were given, show their interaction with Him.

    You tend to make it impersonal, and solely prophetic, as if they had no idea what they were presenting; but I see it as much more personal. Christ is their Lord, He did for each one of them, no less than us; and I think He did reveal Himself to them.

    There are many Theophanies and Christophanies in the OT, and I feel confident that many if not most of those were preincarnate visits from Jesus to them.

    I don't think Daniel or Job or David or Isaiah had impersonal relationships with Jesus....I think they were deeply personal.

    They may not have known His name as 'Jesus', but He was their Lord. Jesus was always present in the lives of the OT faithful.

    I also spoke and shared some in the other threads, about no man can seek God unless he is drawn and it is the work of God. He fills believers, it is very personal. OT believers were no less people that post-pentecost people.

    If they did good, if they sought God, if they followed the path of righteousness, it was through the leading of the Spirit in them....not of their own fleshly ability.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually there is.
    A Christian does NOT gain eternal life through doing good works.
    Are you really poorly grounded in foundational truth?
    A Christian receives eternal life as a gift from Jesus due to His sacrifice and death in our place. We do NOT receive it due to our works, for then we could boast. Paul notes we CANNOT boast about this.
    So your above claim can ONLY be correct IF Christians receive eternal life through doing good works.
    What they did is part of "bearing fruit" enabled by the fruit of the Spirit that believers have. I'm just saying that your interpretation is not the only valid way to look at the text.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Christians do indeed live by faith. It is the ONLY way to eternal life if you think about it. A Christian may shrink back, but then they don't lose their eternal life.
    However a just person who shrinks back will lose it. This is part of the Gospel we have: 2Ti 2:13* if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.
    If someone denies Christ, but that is not the same as being faithless. So again we have a difference between someone called "just" and a Christian.
    1. I disagree that a believer who shrinks back (backslides and didn't repent before death) will not lose their salvation. The once saved, never lose salvation irrespective of what we do is a false doctrine that deceives many. You have used a pretty poor interpretation of 2 Tim 2:3 (which says that if one rejects the Christ, their rejection of the Gospel will in no way negate the efficacy of Christ and his Gospel because it stands sure. Now you've twisted it to mean that a Christian without faith will still receive eternal life.

    2. Only you can make such a statement and not see that it's an oxymoron. For if he doesn't have "faith" then his Christianity is void. Perhaps you should avail yourself on the scriptures position regarding faith in James 2:14-18?

    3. If you show me a believer without faith in Jesus Christ, I'll show you a charlatan.

    4. I notice you consistently speak about the "Just" in the present tense? Are you advocating by any chance that despite the Bible's express warning (that in this dispensation, acceptance of Christ is the only way to be saved) that it is OK for some to hear the Gospel, reject it and still be saved because of their good works? Jesus said in the OD (Matt 24:14) that when the Gospel has been preached in all the world for a witness the end will come. Please tell me you're not making a case for those who reject Christ that they will yet receive eternal life?

    5. The Just of the OT are different from those in the church age. You accused me of being poorly grounded in foundational truth - yet I find your claim that "If someone denies Christ, but that is not the same as being faithless." as the epitome of lack of foundational truth. If a believer denies Christ and supposedly *not faithless* who then is their faith based on then? The moon or the stars, perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I don't see how you can. Joh 5:24* Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

    Are you saying he does come into judgement? Are you saying this is not speaking about a Christian? Are you saying a Christian will NOT be raptured?
    So I am not sure what you are seeing differently, or how you can?
    Maybe you do not notice in John 5:24 that since they have (a) eternal life (b) does not come into judgment (c) and have passed from death to life; it leads to the resurrection of life v29!
    What I'm seeing differently which you seem blind to, are the millions of saints that have died since Stephen who will rise at the voice of the Lord - into LIFE. You seem to focus only on the living being raptured into immortality without considering the saints that are asleep.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Where is the goat in John 5?
    If you mean Matthew 25, then these are people who did NOT perish during the GT.
    The goat obviously denotes the condemned, so they can easily fit the left behind.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No, as I stated living by faith is not the sum total of a Christian. A Christian believes in Christ.
    There are more people who will be given eternal life than just Christians - a whole load of Jews for one. Then also those who lived before Christ in lands like Australia or China, who will face judgement. They will be the Just who lived according to their faith and so did works accordingly. This does NOT make them Christians.
    Some think that everyone who is not a Christian is going to hell, but I don't. I believe they will face judgement and many may well go to hell, but some will not.
    Yes, Paul made it clear in Rom 2:14-15 that Gentiles who lived before Christ will be judged according to their works of faith. We know that God is merciful and his criteria for justice is unlike ours. But the NT said in many places that Jesus is the only way to be saved. You allude to the possibility that those who lived in this age and rejected him (unless they did not hear the Gospel before death) may yet receive eternal life. Only God knows, so I won't shut the door firmly against them.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    It is interesting to me that Daniel wrote on of the most exact messianic prophecies in the OT.
    Dan 9:24-27, also in the furnace, also in chapt 7 and 12.

    Daniel knee of Christ for he wrote of him.
    None of us can judge his personal relationship.

    Daniel also was the teacher over the maji scientists and astronomers.

    Unprovable from silent scripture, but I believe likely His teaching about His knowledge of Messiah was passed down from Maui to maji until the time of Herod, when other faithful believing maji, followwed the Star to Bethlehem, so they could bow down and worship the babe Messiah incarnate.

    Their OT faith in Jesus spoke for itself, regardless of how much details we know of their relationship.
    Let us not confuse the OT prophets belief in "a great prophet to come" with absolute knowledge of Christ - something that was beyond their comprehension at the time. Let me put it this way, we all have knowledge about the future Two Witnesses. Yet none of us presently can explicitly talk about them intimately beyond what is prophecied about them. It was the same with Moses, Daniel et al. They knew by divine inspiration that a great prophet will come and that's about the sum total of what they knew about him.

    The key word here is they "knew Jesus". My point, however, is that their knowing Jesus was subjective. It was certainly not in the same way we know him.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I never said they had no relationship with God (that is the OT saints). In fact I would argue the opposite, and as Brother mark posted various verses which show they had this relationship.However the large group is not made up of only OT saints, it includes ALL those that Paul said would receive eternal life in Romans 2, through doing good. Paul states why they did good, was due to their aim, their faith, their perseverance.
    No disagreement with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    There is ONLY ONE way we can lose our salvation, and it isn't by being faithless, but through denial alone.
    FHG, just take a breather and reconsider what you're saying. Can't you see that denial of Christ is precipitated by lack of faith? IOW, faithlessness and denial are interconnected? Yet you're trying to separate one from the other.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I agree he did not know Jesus, but he did know about God's plan for an anointed one to come, who would set up and rule the Kingdom.
    Some seem to think the two mean the same thing, but I see we are in agreement that they are not.
    We are in agreement indeed.

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You could have given us an overview of Dr Andy Woods exegesis.
    Don’t really need to. The question that is paramount is when did the Kingdom begin? How one develops their view on the Kongdom later stems from that. And few if any even ask or consider where it began, even though it has substantial bearing on what it is later.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

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    Re: Re-examining the Millennial Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    Don’t really need to. The question that is paramount is when did the Kingdom begin? How one develops their view on the Kongdom later stems from that. And few if any even ask or consider where it began, even though it has substantial bearing on what it is later.

    The kingdom of God is God’s sovereign lordship over all creation.

    Psalms 145
    “All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee. They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power; To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom. Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations”

    Psalms 103
    “The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.”




    It reached it’s zenith, at Christ’s 1st Advent, when He was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and sent His laborers out into the harvest ripe and white to all nations.

    Acts Acts 28:31
    “Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence”




    Then it’s completion at Christ’s return:

    Revelation 11:15 “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

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