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Thread: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

  1. #211
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Are you saying the books won't be opened for you at your resurrection? This does not happen till the GWT.

    Revelation 20:11-12 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    Won't be opened for me. Instead this is what will happen when Jesus returns:
    1Co 3:13* each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.

    There will be a fire to test what work has been done - this is not a literal fire. So you could say the books are also not literal. In both cases there is a consideration of works, but one is tested to its durability, its Kingdom value, whilst the other is noted for what it shows about a person.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    OK, to clarify all we need to do is check what the judgement is for and then we know who is involved.
    If it is a judgement for eternal life, then we KNOW without any doubt this is not about Christians.

    The GWToJ happens after the Millennium Kingdom (MK). There are no Christians in that group. However Christians is referring to those who are IN Christ WHEN He comes. IOW anyone who recognises Jesus as God DURING the MK is not a Christian, for they missed that opportunity. However a Christian does NOT total everyone who is in the Kingdom of God. God will have not only Christians, but also the OT saints (of which we are told a number in Hebrews 11), and then also we have those who during the MK wash their robes, and then those who were BEFORE Noah who will be part of those judged at the GWToJ.
    The clearest example of this is the parable of the vineyard:
    Mat 20:1* “For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.*
    Mat 20:2* After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.*
    Mat 20:3* And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace,*
    Mat 20:4* and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’*
    Mat 20:5* So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same.*
    Mat 20:6* And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’*
    Mat 20:7* They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’*
    Mat 20:8* And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’*
    Mat 20:9* And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius.*
    Mat 20:10* Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius.*
    Mat 20:11* And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house,*
    Mat 20:12* saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’*
    Mat 20:13* But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?*
    Mat 20:14* Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you.*
    Mat 20:15* Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’*
    Mat 20:16* So the last will be first, and the first last.”

    Most latch onto the final sentence - the last will be first and the first will be last.
    However almost everyone agrees that this parable is a picture of the gift of eternal life.

    We have early morning, third hour, sixth hour, ninth hour and eleventh hour.
    Some think we are in the eleventh hour now.
    From Adam to Abraham could be early
    Abraham to Moses could be third
    Moses to Jesus could be sixth
    Jesus to now could be ninth
    From His return for the MK could be eleventh

    IOW we have 5 different groups, who are called at different times, but all receive the denarius.

    As for the passages, I find the ESv is a better translation:
    I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:

    This suggests the judging is not at the appearing, unlike the KJV which does.

    Romans 14:10 is true for everyone, even though the time when each happens is different - the context though is that of for rewards, as Christians.

    John 5 though is directly connected to the GWToJ as it is about deeds done and for eternal life.

    The main problem a lot of people have is that they say - the ONLY way is through Jesus, therefore you cannot be given eternal life at the GWToJ, for that is too late. However Jesus is the Judge and He is judging what people did with their lives according to what they knew.
    What you are failing to see with the parable is that “all were paid at the same time” at the “last day”.

    So you are asking me to believe that Jesus does what He prayed the Father not do by taking all the christians out of the world:

    John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

    And you are asking me to believe these works are not judged and that the book of “life” is not opened for christians at His coming when the books are opened in Revelation 20:11-12 :

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    That does not fit to me, you are judged by works as stated for reward, so the books need to be opened for you and that is the GWT. Thank you for explaining your position though, I just see to many things that don't fit, therefore there is a better answer for all this.

  3. #213
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Won't be opened for me. Instead this is what will happen when Jesus returns:
    1Co 3:13* each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.

    There will be a fire to test what work has been done - this is not a literal fire. So you could say the books are also not literal. In both cases there is a consideration of works, but one is tested to its durability, its Kingdom value, whilst the other is noted for what it shows about a person.
    So you are not in the book of life?

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Are you saying the books won't be opened for you at your resurrection? This does not happen till the GWT.
    You are only assuming there is no other time books are opened, not that God needs to open them to know what's in them anyways. Rev 20 speaks of two times of judgment and resurrection, separated by a thousand years.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    You are only assuming there is no other time books are opened, not that God needs to open them to know what's in them anyways.
    We are told when they will be opened.

    Rev 20 speaks of two times of judgment and resurrection, separated by a thousand years.

    I think Rev 20 speaks of a time that now is and was when Jesus spoke these words...,

    Jn 5
    24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life
    This is the first resurrection ( transfer from death to life ) we experience as new born babes and the most important one . Participate in this reality now and you will in no way come into the judgment of the second death at the GWT.

    REV 20
    6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years

    Jn 5
    25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    We are told when they will be opened.
    As I said before, God doesn't have to open any books if he chooses not to. They also can be opened without saying they were opened. In Daniel there is a judgment scene before the beast is destroyed that would match the timeframe of the judgment found in Rev 20:4 and in Daniel the books are opened. All of this shows that the ending of Rev 20 is not the only times the books were opened, and shows two days of judgment.


    I think Rev 20 speaks of a time that now is and was when Jesus spoke these words...,
    The dead in Christ rising bodily does not happen now. That is the first of two mass resurrections found in Rev 20. You are mixing contexts and timeframes and misunderstanding Rev 20 is speaking of the bodily resurrection not something else.

    The first resurrection is dead Christians coming back to life, and the rest of the dead (who aren't Christians) coming back to life much later. If one sticks to the actual context of Rev 20, then this will be apparent and obvious. Anything else is just stirring the water until it's no longer clear.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    As I said before, God doesn't have to open any books if he chooses not to. They also can be opened without saying they were opened. In Daniel there is a judgment scene before the beast is destroyed that would match the timeframe of the judgment found in Rev 20:4 and in Daniel the books are opened. All of this shows that the ending of Rev 20 is not the only times the books were opened, and shows two days of judgment.




    The dead in Christ rising bodily does not happen now. That is the first of two mass resurrections found in Rev 20. You are mixing contexts and timeframes and misunderstanding Rev 20 is speaking of the bodily resurrection not something else.

    The first resurrection is dead Christians coming back to life, and the rest of the dead (who aren't Christians) coming back to life much later. If one sticks to the actual context of Rev 20, then this will be apparent and obvious. Anything else is just stirring the water until it's no longer clear.
    All I am saying is "we will not come into judgment and suffer the second death " - is a present reality that Now Is.

    You seem to contradict this by saying we need a physical resurrection in order to have the hope of avoiding the second death.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    All I am saying is "we will not come into judgment and suffer the second death " - is a present reality that Now Is.
    It's only officially judged that way at the resurrection.

    You seem to contradict this by saying we need a physical resurrection in order to have the hope of avoiding the second death.
    Immortality does not come to people who are still mortal and will die the first death so a physical resurrection is the final step in all of this. What you have brought up is the initial step not the final step.

    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    This is also found here:

    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Same event, the dead in Christ putting on immortality and death is swallowed up in victory.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  9. #219
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Some of those *might* refer to the thousand years but since none are clear, I don't bring those up. What is written in Rev is enough for me and is the basis for what I have said.

    Can you comment on Rev 2?

    Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

    That is the second coming, yes?

    Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

    After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the nations. Clearly this isn't overcomers having power over nations of overcomers. The correct context is the overcomers having power over nations who did not overcome.

    Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

    After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations. Even the term overcomer is a reference to those who received immortal life, overcoming all bad things and reaching that special reward of immortality which we do know occurs when Jesus comes as we find reference to in verse 25.

    If this is correct, and I believe it is, this puts an end to Amil's version of these things since the reign during the thousand years wouldn't even start until Christ comes. There can be no doubt the ruling with the rod of iron is the same rule Rev 19 and 20 speak about.
    Sorry ewq, I am trying to go back and see what your position is as I am unclear. On this post you made this sounds good but aren't you basically saying you will be ruling over everyone that took the mark of the beast and worshiped it? If so then this does not fit to me either.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    You are only assuming there is no other time books are opened, not that God needs to open them to know what's in them anyways. Rev 20 speaks of two times of judgment and resurrection, separated by a thousand years.
    So to you the christians are raised and the books opened and you are rewarded at the first resurrection? Which is post trib for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    You are only assuming there is no other time books are opened, not that God needs to open them to know what's in them anyways. Rev 20 speaks of two times of judgment and resurrection, separated by a thousand years.
    So to you the christians are raised and the books opened and you are rewarded at the first resurrection? Which is post trib for you?

  10. #220
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    So you are not in the book of life?
    Why would that be the case?
    This passage does NOT speak about the Book of Life whatsoever.
    All Christians are in the Book of Life, which is what John 5:24 speaks about - we have passed from death into life.

    This judgement is the judgement Christians face which is NOT about being in the Book of Life, but about the reward we will get. Some will get no reward.
    The reward is NOT eternal life, for that is a free gift and NOT a reward for work done.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    What you are failing to see with the parable is that “all were paid at the same time” at the “last day”.
    Thank you for highlighting that. It is a relevant point, and one which supports a single time for payment.
    However actually they are NOT paid at the same time, which is interesting because those at the 11th hour were paid first.

    So you are asking me to believe that Jesus does what He prayed the Father not do by taking all the christians out of the world:
    John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
    Nope. No Christians are taken out of the world, EXCEPT the short period of time when we are raptured and meet Jesus who is coming down to deal with the Beast.
    Not really sure why you would think I was saying otherwise.

    And you are asking me to believe these works are not judged and that the book of “life” is not opened for christians at His coming when the books are opened in Revelation 20:11-12 :
    In order for a Christian to be raptured, God needs to know to rapture them. This is done (I believe) according to whether a person was sealed by the Holy Spirit. So God looks for His Mark (you could argue we also have the Mark of the Father and the Mark of the Son on us).
    The Book of Life is ONLY referred to AFTER judgement for eternal life, but we are raised BEFORE the judgement, no matter even if you think that Rev 20 is when Jesus returns, we still have Christians raised, then Jesus defeating the Beast and then the GWToJ (IOW regardless of the MK).
    So books are NOT opened for us at that time.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
    That does not fit to me, you are judged by works as stated for reward, so the books need to be opened for you and that is the GWT. Thank you for explaining your position though, I just see to many things that don't fit, therefore there is a better answer for all this.
    Nope, no books. I gave you 1 Cor 3:13 which shows a TEST is applied and NOT books being opened.
    So our judgement is based upon the treasure we have stored up in heaven. It is all tested by fire, and what remains is good and what is burnt up is a loss.

    I do not find a single thing doesn't fit, and I fail to see one that you have raised.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Sorry ewq, I am trying to go back and see what your position is as I am unclear. On this post you made this sounds good but aren't you basically saying you will be ruling over everyone that took the mark of the beast and worshiped it? If so then this does not fit to me either.
    We know many will die when Christ returns who had taken the mark. Rev 19 shows an army or armies being destroyed but we shouldn't assume everyone who took the mark is also in that army. So, some will survive the second coming and they are ruled over. Perhaps they survived because they were forced to take the mark or had doubts about the claims the AC made...who knows? Maybe not everyone actually takes the mark. It only says people can't buy or sell without the mark but nothing about being killed if someone refuses it. The killing is related to worshiping the image of the beast but not regarding the mark.



    So to you the christians are raised and the books opened and you are rewarded at the first resurrection? Which is post trib for you?
    Correct.



    So to you the christians are raised and the books opened and you are rewarded at the first resurrection? Which is post trib for you?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The reward is NOT eternal life, for that is a free gift and NOT a reward for work done.
    Not according to scripture:

    Joh 4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

    Joh 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    All I am saying is "we will not come into judgment and suffer the second death " - is a present reality that Now Is.

    You seem to contradict this by saying we need a physical resurrection in order to have the hope of avoiding the second death.
    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It's only officially judged that way at the resurrection.

    Immortality does not come to people who are still mortal and will die the first death so a physical resurrection is the final step in all of this. What you have brought up is the initial step not the final step.
    The first step is coming into the promise of the Blessed Hope of what he has already done for us , so the second death cannot hurt you.
    The final step involves receiving our inheritance at his appearing in the glory of His Father and we will be with him forevermore.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    All I am saying is "we will not come into judgment and suffer the second death " - is a present reality that Now Is.

    You seem to contradict this by saying we need a physical resurrection in order to have the hope of avoiding the second death.
    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It's only officially judged that way at the resurrection.

    Immortality does not come to people who are still mortal and will die the first death so a physical resurrection is the final step in all of this. What you have brought up is the initial step not the final step.
    The first step is coming into the promise of the Blessed Hope of what he has already done for us , so the second death cannot hurt you.
    The final step involves receiving our inheritance at his appearing in the glory of His Father and we will be with him forevermore.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    All I am saying is "we will not come into judgment and suffer the second death " - is a present reality that Now Is.

    You seem to contradict this by saying we need a physical resurrection in order to have the hope of avoiding the second death.
    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It's only officially judged that way at the resurrection.

    Immortality does not come to people who are still mortal and will die the first death so a physical resurrection is the final step in all of this. What you have brought up is the initial step not the final step.
    The first step is coming into the promise of the Blessed Hope of what he has already done for us , so the second death cannot hurt you.
    The final step involves receiving our inheritance at his appearing in the glory of His Father and we will be with him forevermore.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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