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Thread: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

  1. #16
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    What happens to those individuals who are left over after the judgment that comes upon all mankind nations at his coming?
    Simple; they carry on living.
    Those worthy will be the Lord's priests and co-rulers, Revelation 5:9-10, and the rest of the survivors will live in the same way as now, but under a benevolent dictatorship.

    Correction to #15; Matthew 25:31-33

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    GWTJ is meaning great white throne judgment, in case some are not familiar with that abbreviation.


    The book of life is mentioned. The book of life obviously involves those who will put on immortality. But at this judgment, it being opened, is the reason in order that some standing there will put on immortality at the time? For the sake of argument, let's say it is. What about the following then?

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    Don't these put on immortality once the dead in Christ rise first, and when we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord? What of any of that matches with anything seen in Revelation 20:11-15 though?

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


    Does the judgment seen in Revelation 20:11-15 involve, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed? Let's say it does. What about those still alive when Christ returns? How do they physically die in order to be resurrected from the dead so that they too can be standing in front of God at the GWTJ?

    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Which group below would any of these be standing in at the GWTJ?

    And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God

    the sea gave up the dead which were in it

    death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them


    So how do any of the dead put on immortality at the GWTJ if none of it involves 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 nor 1 Corinthians 15:51-57? What other Scriptures would prove that some put on immortality at the GWTJ? One of the reasons it is assumed some do is because the book of life is opened at this judgment. But if some at this judgment put on immortality at this judgment, and that others have already put on immortality prior to this judgment, thus Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, why didn't the former simply put on immortality at the last trump like some others do?
    I don't seem to have your angst over the two resurrections. I just see the first resurrection as taking place at Christ's 2nd Coming, and involving all the Christians in the present era, and all of the saints in the OT era.

    Then there will be the Millennial Age, in which mortals will once again carry on as they do in the present age. Once again, at the end of that era they must face the 2nd resurrection, in which the same things happen as in the first resurrection. The Christians in the Millennial Era will obtain a resurrection into glorified bodies together with Christ. And those who reject Christ will be raised up in eternal bodies for judgment, and for separation from the purified earth.

    Where is the contradiction? Where is the confusion? Maybe I'm missing something?

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Does the judgment seen in Revelation 20:11-15 involve, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed? Let's say it does. What about those still alive when Christ returns? How do they physically die in order to be resurrected from the dead so that they too can be standing in front of God at the GWTJ?

    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Which group below would any of these be standing in at the GWTJ?

    And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God

    the sea gave up the dead which were in it

    death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them


    So how do any of the dead put on immortality at the GWTJ if none of it involves 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 nor 1 Corinthians 15:51-57? What other Scriptures would prove that some put on immortality at the GWTJ? One of the reasons it is assumed some do is because the book of life is opened at this judgment. But if some at this judgment put on immortality at this judgment, and that others have already put on immortality prior to this judgment, thus Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, why didn't the former simply put on immortality at the last trump like some others do?
    No, Rev 20:11 - 15 has nothing to do with Christians. It is nothing to do with 1 Cor 15 or 1 Thess 4.
    The question is what does JUDGEMENT mean in this passage.

    There are two choices.
    1) This is not an actual judgement but a sentencing - IOW the list of crimes are read out and then the appropriate sentence (in this case hell) is given. This is what a lot of Christians believe it to be. On reflection though it seems fairly pointless and rather self-justifying, further is that truly a judgement? Is that view supported by scripture?

    2) This is an actual judgment where the Books are opened (as stated in verse 12) and where they are JUDGED according to their works (as stated in verse 13). The Book of Life is then opened and some names may be added to that Book depending on the Judgement.

    I go with choice 2, but a lot of Evangelicals (and others) rail against this idea, for they argue this is allowing someone to be saved through works and not by faith.
    I counter that argument on two levels.
    1) Jesus is the judge and He is the one who decides who will be written in the Book of Life, for it is in His remit to give life to whom He chooses (John 5:21)
    2) Paul writes that the GOSPEL he preaches is one of judgement according to works. You just need to read Romans 2 to know that, especially note 2:16
    Romans 2:6 - 16
    He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

  4. #19
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't seem to have your angst over the two resurrections. I just see the first resurrection as taking place at Christ's 2nd Coming, and involving all the Christians in the present era, and all of the saints in the OT era.

    Then there will be the Millennial Age, in which mortals will once again carry on as they do in the present age. Once again, at the end of that era they must face the 2nd resurrection, in which the same things happen as in the first resurrection. The Christians in the Millennial Era will obtain a resurrection into glorified bodies together with Christ. And those who reject Christ will be raised up in eternal bodies for judgment, and for separation from the purified earth.

    Where is the contradiction? Where is the confusion? Maybe I'm missing something?
    Where are any Scriptures that indicate someone can also put on immortality after the 2nd coming, 1000 years or so later? Are you just assuming this or can you actually prove this from Scripture? My view is this....only those that have part in the first resurrection are able to put on immortality. Those of the 2nd resurrection, the rest of the dead per Rev 20:5, their fate is judgment at the GWT where they are then cast into the LOF because their names won't be found in the book of life. Meaning all of them at that judgment.

    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    2 separate resurrections in view above. 1...they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life. 2....they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Both of these resurrections can be found in Rev 20.

    Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is referring to Rev 20:11-15 and is also referring to 2....they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    This is the first resurrection. This is referring to Rev 20:4 and Rev 20:6, and is also referring to 1...they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life.

    And since there are only two resurrections total, separated by a thousand years and a little season, how can anyone of the first resurrection not rise during the 2nd coming, but instead rise after the thousand years? Some will likely argue that it is some of those mortals living during the thousand years who will obtain immortality at the GWTJ. Let's say that's true. That would mean they would have to die during the thousand years since it is only the dead who have been raised back to life that are present at the GWTJ. But if they were doing good during the thousand years, thus worthy of immortality, why and how did they die during the thousand years? It's not unreasonable that a mortal could live an entire thousand years. Adam almost did, and that he was a mortal at the time when he almost lived an entire thousand years.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Hello...…because

    THERE IS NO ONE PHYSICALLY ALIVE ON EARTH AFTER THE 2ND COMING.


    Even though I realize you are being dead serious here, I still can't take you seriously. Too many Scriptures prove you dead wrong. Such as...


    Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
    44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
    45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.


    This context obviously involves the 2nd coming though I realize Preterists would disagree. But you're not a Preterist as far as I know. Assuming you are correct, that would render this passage total nonsense in that case. Except Jesus never spoke total nonsense though. The misunderstanding must be on your end then.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Jesus gathers us there at his coming. He has the living and the dead gathered before him, and placed at his right or his left.

    2Tim 4

    I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
    2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
    5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry
    6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.
    7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;
    8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.


    I understand the above verses to be saying that the Lord will judge the living and the dead when he appears.
    When he appears the righteous , whether living or dead , are rewarded with a glorious crown.
    As for the unrighteous living and dead, they will have to give account for their rejection of God and his saving Gospel....,


    1Pet 4
    4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you; 5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
    6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
    7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 9 Be hospitable to one another without complaint.
    But the problem is still this. Only the dead who have been raised back to life from the dead are at this judgment according to Rev 20:11-15. Any saved person still alive when Christ returns doesn't need to be raised back from the dead. They are instead, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump, immortal, which means they can't also be part of the dead at the GWTJ. Maybe there is more than one judgment that takes place at different times but that you are concluding there is only one total, that being the GTWJ. Have you ever thought that is why what you are concluding is not adding up?

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Paul fills in some details in his prophecy of 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, which is all about the GWTJ.
    Those alive at that time; if their names are Written in the Book of Life; will receive an instant transformation into immortality.

    The Prophetic Word is clear; no one receives immortality until the GWTJ. Only then is Death no more. Revelation 21:4b
    Interestingly; the prophecy in Revelation 7, which shows God's people on earth soon after the Lord's Day of wrath, goes on in verses 15-17 to describe Eternity. It will be those people who have washed in the Blood of the Lamb, whom God will wipe away every tear...
    Paralleled by Revelation 21:4a

    But do not confuse 1 Thess 4:17 with the GWTJ, as that prophecy is about the glorious Return, where those who have maintained their faith in God, will be transported to where He is for His Millennium reign on earth. They will be mainly those faithful people who were taken to a place of safety during the Great Trib period of 42 month, exactly 1260 days. Revelation 12:14 Confirmed by Matthew 24:30-31


    It is ludicrous to conclude the dead in Christ who rise first, and those in Christ who are still alive when He returns, that they don't receive immortality at that point. In context, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, these passages have only the saved in view. The lost can be found nowhere in these contexts. So when 1 Corinthians 15:54 indicates...Death is swallowed up in victory....that is only in regards to the saved and not the lost as well. It is then ludicrous that death is swallowed up in victory for those cast into the LOF as well. We have to interpret Scripture according to context if we expect to arrive at any correct conclusions.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No, Rev 20:11 - 15 has nothing to do with Christians. It is nothing to do with 1 Cor 15 or 1 Thess 4.
    The question is what does JUDGEMENT mean in this passage.

    There are two choices.
    1) This is not an actual judgement but a sentencing - IOW the list of crimes are read out and then the appropriate sentence (in this case hell) is given. This is what a lot of Christians believe it to be. On reflection though it seems fairly pointless and rather self-justifying, further is that truly a judgement? Is that view supported by scripture?

    2) This is an actual judgment where the Books are opened (as stated in verse 12) and where they are JUDGED according to their works (as stated in verse 13). The Book of Life is then opened and some names may be added to that Book depending on the Judgement.

    I go with choice 2, but a lot of Evangelicals (and others) rail against this idea, for they argue this is allowing someone to be saved through works and not by faith.
    I counter that argument on two levels.
    1) Jesus is the judge and He is the one who decides who will be written in the Book of Life, for it is in His remit to give life to whom He chooses (John 5:21)
    2) Paul writes that the GOSPEL he preaches is one of judgement according to works. You just need to read Romans 2 to know that, especially note 2:16
    Romans 2:6 - 16
    He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
    I'm uncertain how to respond to your post atm. Your position here is not entirely clear to me. I somewhat grasp some of what you are trying to convey, yet I don't grasp all of what you are trying to convey. For instance, I'm not grasping the part about "The Book of Life is then opened and some names may be added to that Book depending on the Judgement.", as to how you are concluding that since you are Premil.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I'm uncertain how to respond to your post atm. Your position here is not entirely clear to me. I somewhat grasp some of what you are trying to convey, yet I don't grasp all of what you are trying to convey. For instance, I'm not grasping the part about "The Book of Life is then opened and some names may be added to that Book depending on the Judgement.", as to how you are concluding that since you are Premil.
    It is at the Judgement that the judgement is made whether someone who is NOT a new creation, that is not IN Christ, is to be entered into that Book or not.
    I am as you know post-trib, post-wrath PreMil.
    Not really sure where PreMil comes into your question. Whether PreMil or AMil the GWToJ is after the MK.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Even though I realize you are being dead serious here, I still can't take you seriously. Too many Scriptures prove you dead wrong. Such as...
    How does anyone survive the transformation to the NHNE at the 2nd coming? No one survives not even the old earth itself.....

    If you wrongly suggest that that those who are changed in a twinkling are evidence of survivors, they would still need to die to be made incorruptible, it is appointed to die, the wages of sin death and so on. Though the verse being changed in a twinkling refers the dead being changed from the grave.

    In addition, again if you wrongly suggest that I thess 4 speaks of survivors after the 2nd coming it is in contraction to the points above. Everyone dies!!! and everyone needs to die to be changed!!! The alive and remain are those dead resurrected made alive from the grave and remain as the wicked are cast out.

    And if you wrongly suggest that Zech speaks of those left from the nations are living survivors of the 2nd coming again the above. Those "left" or remain does not preclude them from still dying.

    Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
    44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
    45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

    This context obviously involves the 2nd coming that would render this passage total nonsense in that case. The misunderstanding must be on your end then.
    Let's review the text. Yes it include mentioning the 2nd coming but it does so as a "parallel" to one's personal life. You and I do not know when is our last breath thus the text is then encouragement to live as such would be acceptable to God. As Christ returns on an unknown hour at the second coming so too will he at the end of your life. So it really is not a 2nd coming verse and nothing to do with your view whether Preterist or something else. The text applies to all equally.

    So then in your own words back at you....."Except Jesus never spoke total nonsense though. The misunderstanding must be on your end then."

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    How does anyone survive the transformation to the NHNE at the 2nd coming? No one survives not even the old earth itself.....

    If you wrongly suggest that that those who are changed in a twinkling are evidence of survivors, they would still need to die to be made incorruptible, it is appointed to die, the wages of sin death and so on. Though the verse being changed in a twinkling refers the dead being changed from the grave.
    Weird, have you NOT ALREADY died?
    Romans 6:8 - 11 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

    We won't die when Jesus returns for that part which needs to die is dead ALREADY.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No, Rev 20:11 - 15 has nothing to do with Christians. The question is what does JUDGEMENT mean in this passage.
    Are we not all judged and our works there also? Why can't the "judgement seat" be the same as the GWT? It is.

    But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
    For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
    So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

    For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    2) This is an actual judgment where the Books are opened (as stated in verse 12) and where they are JUDGED according to their works (as stated in verse 13). The Book of Life is then opened and some names may be added to that Book depending on the Judgement.
    If the GWT was only for the wicked why then the BOL? Also no names are added to the book. The book is complete at the foundation with all names then those are blotted out from there.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Weird, have you NOT ALREADY died?
    Not physically. Weird?

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It is at the Judgement that the judgement is made whether someone who is NOT a new creation, that is not IN Christ, is to be entered into that Book or not.
    I am as you know post-trib, post-wrath PreMil.
    Not really sure where PreMil comes into your question. Whether PreMil or AMil the GWToJ is after the MK.

    Per Premil though, this judgment would be a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming. Who would be the ones putting on immortality that late in the game? My Bible indicates immortality is initially accomplished at the last trump, in the twinkling of an eye. That of course happens at the 2nd coming, regardless that Keraz appears to disagree.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post



    If the GWT was only for the wicked why then the BOL? Also no names are added to the book. The book is complete at the foundation with all names then those are blotted out from there.
    The BOL could simply be opened showing that none of their names can be found in it. Apparently the names found written in the BOL have already been written in it before this judgment even commences. So it's not like if their works pass the test, God will then at that time add their names to the BOL.

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