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Thread: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

  1. #46
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Your replies are somewhat confused.
    The Last Day will be the final day of God's experiment with humans. He will keep those who have proved they are worthy into Eternity. The rest go into the Lake of fire.

    Your scriptures in #43 do not prove that Christians will receive a spiritual body at Jesus' Return. Like John 3:16, they give the Promise of immortality and when that will happen is clearly stated to be at the GWTJ.
    Your introduction of a millennium period is what is causing the confusion between us.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    There are many different judgements, not all in the throne room. In fact the biggest judgement of them all comes in a twinkling of an eye, when those judged as saved get resurrected to be with Christ forever, separating mankind into two groups. This is when death is clothed with immortality.

    There are two additional judgments at the second coming, one is the winepress of wrath at Jehosaphat outside Jerusalem where the armies of the world are destroyed. This cleans up the planet of all the most aggressive military elements.

    Another judgement is the Judgement of the Nations, where some nations are turned into burning wastelands forever due to treating Christians badly, and other nations live on forever.

    The resurrected rule for 1000 years, only then is the GWTJ.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Your introduction of a millennium period is what is causing the confusion between us.
    Revelation 20 tells us five times, there will be a 1000 year reign of Jesus. It is alluded to in many other scriptures.

    The many Promises of a resurrection of the dead and the conferring of immortality onto those worthy of it, do not happen until after the Millennium, as plainly stated in Rev 20-21

  4. #49
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    The context of ‘the twinkling of an eye’ is the resdurection.

    To put on the immortal and incorruptible bodies spoken of in that chapter death must occur, even if it is only for a twinkling.
    The entire chapter is about how through resurrection, we inherit our glorified bodies.
    I am glad you put the word "we". 1 Cor 15 is about all who are resurrected, starting with Jesus, then "we" and then everyone else. Very clearly THREE resurrections.
    Jesus was resurrected 2,000 years ago, so there is no problem with a time gap between "we" being resurrected, and everyone else at the end.
    It is important also to note that ONLY "we" are clothed in immortality, this is the fulfillment of the promise of eternal life, and is not applicable to everyone.

  5. #50
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Jesus gives everlasting life to us (the actualization not the promise) at His return; according to the scriptures.

    Also according to the scriptures, it is at His return; when He judges every man.

    Scriptures shows all will be judged on Judgement day; not multiple judgment days of multiple groups and multiple types of people as some believe.

    "thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. "

    "behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

    "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. "

    "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. "

    "And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge"

    "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all"

    "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment"

    "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished"

    "Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. "

    "who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work"

    "Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. "

    "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

    "the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. "

    "the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; "

    "the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God"

    "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men"

    "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. "

    "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ..how shall God judge the world? "

    "the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath"

    "commandeth all men every where to repent because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained"

    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. "


    Looking at the scriptures themselves, and not mans theories, or external doctrines; shows a clear pattern that there will be a judgement day; when all people are judged; both the good and the bad. Reward of eternal life and fiery destruction.

  6. #51
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Where are any Scriptures that indicate someone can also put on immortality after the 2nd coming, 1000 years or so later? Are you just assuming this or can you actually prove this from Scripture? My view is this....only those that have part in the first resurrection are able to put on immortality. Those of the 2nd resurrection, the rest of the dead per Rev 20:5, their fate is judgment at the GWT where they are then cast into the LOF because their names won't be found in the book of life. Meaning all of them at that judgment.
    Either way for me it appears to be an argument from silence. When you cite what is said about the 1st Resurrection, this does not have any bearing on the 2nd Resurrection. What is true of the 1st Resurrection does not disqualify it from happening in the 2nd Resurrection.

    I assume immortalization takes place in both resurrections on the principle that what is good for Christians at the 2nd Coming is also good for Christians at the end of the Millennium. You're assuming that because things are promised at the 2nd Coming that they cannot also happen at the end of the Millennium?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD
    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    2 separate resurrections in view above. 1...they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life. 2....they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Both of these resurrections can be found in Rev 20.

    Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is referring to Rev 20:11-15 and is also referring to 2....they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    This is the first resurrection. This is referring to Rev 20:4 and Rev 20:6, and is also referring to 1...they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life.
    The problem with this is, your application of the 2 resurrections, for good and evil, in John 5.28, do not necessarily apply in the way you personally apply it in Rev 20.6.

    John 5.28 Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

    This is the same thing that was said in Dan 12.

    Dan 12.2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

    This is just saying a time will come for both these groups. I do not see a particular order, although I can understand why you might view this as either a single event or a separate event. However, the separation of these events does appear evident in Rev 20.

    Rev 20.4 They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

    What this says is that the righteous from the present age will rise up and rule with Christ at the 2nd Coming, leaving the wicked dead still without resurrection until the end of the Millennium. What it does not do is deny that there will be righteous in the Millennium who will also rise up in the 2nd resurrection at the end of the Millennium. My assumption is that at the end of the Millennium there will be a 2nd resurrection in which the wicked of all ages will be judged and the righteous of the Millennium will receive their immortal inheritance.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD
    And since there are only two resurrections total, separated by a thousand years and a little season, how can anyone of the first resurrection not rise during the 2nd coming, but instead rise after the thousand years? Some will likely argue that it is some of those mortals living during the thousand years who will obtain immortality at the GWTJ. Let's say that's true. That would mean they would have to die during the thousand years since it is only the dead who have been raised back to life that are present at the GWTJ. But if they were doing good during the thousand years, thus worthy of immortality, why and how did they die during the thousand years? It's not unreasonable that a mortal could live an entire thousand years. Adam almost did, and that he was a mortal at the time when he almost lived an entire thousand years.
    My assumption is that good people who live in the Millennial era will be flawed people, just like today. Although "Satan is bound," that does not mean human sin does not exist. Inasmuch as sin will continue to reign during the Millennial age, even good people will continue to die, just as they do today. They will also need to have a resurrection to immortality at the end of the Millennium. And those who survive to the end of the Millennial period will also have to receive immortal bodies, just as we will receive at the 2nd Coming.

  7. #52
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    And those who survive to the end of the Millennial period will also have to receive immortal bodies, just as we will receive at the 2nd Coming.
    If that is accomplished at the GWTJ though, and that they never even physically died before that event arrives, how do they end up at the GWTJ in line with the rest of the dead in order to put on immortality there? This is the same problem Amils face when they claim everyone are at the GWTJ including the saved, because then one has to explain how those saved ones still physically alive when Christ returns(1 Thessalonians 4:17) also end up among the dead who have been raised back to life.

    Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


    What I have underlined above, do you or do you not agree that this indicates everyone at this judgment were literally physically dead at some point then literally physically rise from the dead in order to be in attendance at this judgment? Do you see anywhere in the text where it ever indicates that anyone who had never physically died are also in attendance?

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    This is the same problem Amils face when they claim everyone are at the GWTJ including the saved, because then one has to explain how those saved ones still physically alive when Christ returns(1 Thessalonians 4:17) also end up among the dead who have been raised back to life.
    I keep explaining this....I agree all need to be dead, great point. There are no saved living on the earth when Christ returns.

    The dead in Christ BECOME the alive in remain upon rising first.

    Furthermore in the text Paul includes "we", seriously Paul who has the gift of prophesy and knew all mysteries was ignorant of this fact. He even states that this day was not near in the next chapter.

    In addition, no saved individuals survives the mark of the beast.

    When you come to see this truth that the dead in Christ become the alive and remain you will say with a loud voice OMG!!!!!! Just keep reading it over.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    [COLOR="#0000FF"]Looking at the scriptures themselves, and not mans theories, or external doctrines; shows a clear pattern that there will be a judgement day; when all people are judged; both the good and the bad. Reward of eternal life and fiery destruction.

    Hey David, we agree!!!! hallelujah!!!

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I keep explaining this....I agree all need to be dead, great point. There are no saved living on the earth when Christ returns.

    The dead in Christ BECOME the alive in remain upon rising first.

    Furthermore in the text Paul includes "we", seriously Paul who has the gift of prophesy and knew all mysteries was ignorant of this fact. He even states that this day was not near in the next chapter.

    In addition, no saved individuals survives the mark of the beast.

    When you come to see this truth that the dead in Christ become the alive and remain you will say with a loud voice OMG!!!!!! Just keep reading it over.
    There are two groups of people in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, not one. Until you can grasp that fact you will continue to be wrong here.

    Group 1...the dead in Christ shall rise first

    Group 2...Then we which are alive and remain

    Do you not see the 'Then' between these two groups? The "Then' indicates chronology. Why would this involve chronology if only one group are in view?

    And do you not also see this part? shall be caught up together with them in the clouds. Who are the them referring to? Obviously referring to Christ and the dead in Christ that rise first. Who shall be caught up together with them? Obviously referring to we which are alive and remain. Two groups. Come on now, this is just plain ole common sense. A fifth grader can easily grasp this, that there are two groups in view here. And you appear to be far more intelligent than a 5th grader. It puzzles me as to why you are not grasping something so obvious then?

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    There are two groups of people in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, not one. Until you can grasp that fact you will continue to be wrong here.

    Group 1...the dead in Christ shall rise first

    Group 2...Then we which are alive and remain

    Do you not see the 'Then' between these two groups? The "Then' indicates chronology. Why would this involve chronology if only one group are in view?

    And do you not also see this part? shall be caught up together with them in the clouds. Who are the them referring to? Obviously referring to Christ and the dead in Christ that rise first. Who shall be caught up together with them? Obviously referring to we which are alive and remain. Two groups. Come on now, this is just plain ole common sense. A fifth grader can easily grasp this, that there are two groups in view here.
    They are one group...the redeemed of all ages.
    The order is showing us that those who have died will be raised and united with Christ as He descends, slightly before He changes those additional redeemed who are alive and remain at that same time, to Christ as He is descending.

    Then a few verses later we see what He does with a He ‘other’ group, the wicked of all time, those who favored the dark.

    It would be no different than a dad coming home from work and him hugging the kids out in the yard first, then as he continues in the door hugging the kids inside.
    All are His kids, United with Him at His arrival...

    No need to create different comings, different resurrections, different gatherings, etc

    I thess 4-5 and 2 thess 1-2 both show two groups being differentiated.
    The redeemed United to Christ and the wicked destroyed by Christ, both at His glorious Return.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    They are one group...the redeemed of all ages.
    The order is showing us that those who have died will be raised and united with Christ as He descends, slightly before He changes those additional redeemed who are alive and remain at that same time, to Christ as He is descending.

    Then a few verses later we see what He does with a He ‘other’ group, the wicked of all time, those who favored the dark.

    It would be no different than a dad coming home from work and him hugging the kids out in the yard first, then as he continues in the door hugging the kids inside.
    All are His kids, United with Him at His arrival...

    No need to create different comings, different resurrections, different gatherings, etc

    I thess 4-5 and 2 thess 1-2 both show two groups being differentiated.
    The redeemed United to Christ and the wicked destroyed by Christ, both at His glorious Return.
    Technically they are one group, so no argument there, that being the group of the saved. But they are not in the same group when these things initially transpire, that being my point. One group has been physically dead. The other group is still physically alive when this event occurs. Ross is trying to say that there are no saved ones still physically alive when Christ returns. That's what I'm disputing.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If that is accomplished at the GWTJ though, and that they never even physically died before that event arrives, how do they end up at the GWTJ in line with the rest of the dead in order to put on immortality there? This is the same problem Amils face when they claim everyone are at the GWTJ including the saved, because then one has to explain how those saved ones still physically alive when Christ returns(1 Thessalonians 4:17) also end up among the dead who have been raised back to life.

    Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


    What I have underlined above, do you or do you not agree that this indicates everyone at this judgment were literally physically dead at some point then literally physically rise from the dead in order to be in attendance at this judgment? Do you see anywhere in the text where it ever indicates that anyone who had never physically died are also in attendance?
    No, you have a good point. I see there being at least two possibilities, from my pov.
    1) The focus is only on the dead, and those who remain alive are simply ignored.
    2) The focus is on the dead, because *everyone dies!*

    If the surviving believers are simply ignored, it may be because they are included in the group of dead as mortals who normally die. After all, the Millennial Age may be classified differently than the present age. The present age is viewed as an "evil age," in which Christians may "survive" until Christ's Coming.

    But in the Age to Come, Christians will be the head, and not the tail. Their glorification event may not be as much a rescue as an immediate event. It may not even require a "Rapture," for all I know? But good question!

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post

    No need to create different comings, different resurrections, different gatherings, etc
    There is only one coming in view here and there is only one resurrection in view here, that being the resurrection of the saved. The resurrection of the lost is not even in view here, it is not part of the context. But if I am wrong, show anywhere in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 that the resurrection of the lost are also in view. I don't know how you might reason through passages overall, but speaking for myself, I tend to try and reason through them according to their contexts.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    There are two groups of people in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, not one. Until you can grasp that fact you will continue to be wrong here.

    Group 1...the dead in Christ shall rise first

    Group 2...Then we which are alive and remain
    I agree there are two groups.

    Group 1...the dead in Christ shall rise first...Then we which are alive and remain

    Group 2...those dead already in the grave asleep.

    You see Thessalonians had a concern is what will happen to those which already sleep. Jesus comforts them and said they will not be forgotten.

    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, ]concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


    Do you not see the 'Then' between these two groups? The "Then' indicates chronology. Why would this involve chronology if only one group are in view?
    Do not see the colon which connects the two parts? Do you not see the pronoun "we". This includes Paul! The dead in Christ will include Paul and to those whom he speaks he clearly knew they and himself will be long in the grave until this event happens.

    And do you not also see this part? shall be caught up together with them in the clouds. Who are the them referring to? Obviously referring to Christ and the dead in Christ that rise first. Who shall be caught up together with them? Obviously referring to we which are alive and remain. Two groups.
    The "with them" are those in the grave asleep. Per what Paul said.....even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


    So the text should read...…

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we (dead in Christ/Paul and Thessalonians) which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (those which currently asleep) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Come on now, this is just plain ole common sense. A fifth grader can easily grasp this, that there are two groups in view here. And you appear to be far more intelligent than a 5th grader. It puzzles me as to why you are not grasping something so obvious then?
    I am not going to take this as an offence. I understand currently you are blinded. You have been brainwashed to believe a certain version and can't grasp it until you are honest with yourself and wipe out previous bias. I was on the same side as you and even used this as a case for the pretrib rapture and telling others. Even though the verse itself denies such a event can happen as the resurrection of those in Christ does not happen until the 2nd coming not 7 years prior. But still people sware by the pretrib rapture being brain washed and not even seeing it, blinded.

    The truth is no believer survives the mark of the beast. No one is transformed living on the earth in a twinkling but from the grave.

    What happens when the dead are resurrected? They become ALIVE. The dead in Christ are those now which are ALIVE. Again notice the mention of those asleep.

    16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
    18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
    19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


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