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Thread: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

  1. #61
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post

    Your scriptures in #43 do not prove that Christians will receive a spiritual body at Jesus' Return.
    Perhaps Jeff Weeder's other scriptures didn't prove it; what about the apostle Paul's teaching related to Jesus' return (Parousia)?

    "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."
    "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. "
    "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. "
    "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming[Parousia]. "

    "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? "
    "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"
    "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:"
    "But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. "
    "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. "
    "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. "
    "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. "
    "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"
    "It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:"
    "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. "

    "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed"
    "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. "
    "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. "
    "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up"


    Paul's teaching seems very convincing to me.
    I think I can trust Paul, that at the Return of Christ, Christians will receive their spiritual bodies.

  2. #62
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    There is only one coming in view here and there is only one resurrection in view here, that being the resurrection of the saved. The resurrection of the lost is not even in view here, it is not part of the context. But if I am wrong, show anywhere in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 that the resurrection of the lost are also in view. I don't know how you might reason through passages overall, but speaking for myself, I tend to try and reason through them according to their contexts.
    Divad,

    The question you are asking is 'begging an assumption'. Do you realize it?

    You are begging the question of, 'if one passage discusses some parts of an event', but doesn't include all details of an event that other similar passage also discuss, then we must exclude some of the details from the event.

    Just imaging what would occur to scripture at the morning tomb, or at golgotha, or in the two Bethlehem narratives, if we expected all details, to be included to decide they are the same events?

    I Thess 4 focuses on believers at Christs return.
    It doesn't go into details about the resurrection of unbelievers.
    However; other passages elsewhere do.

    Like this one:

    John 5:28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. "


    and this one:

    Acts 24:15
    "And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. "


    Seeing them together, we can see Paul just didn't discuss the details of the wicked people being resurrected in I Thess 4; but the other passages show they will too.

    Very simply scriptures to follow.

    They also show us this begging the question issue, we don't want to get into.

    Neither of the two latter verses mention 'changing from corruptible to incorruptible' or a 'trumpet sound'; or Christ returning from Heaven.
    But we know from other passages, that those details also are apart of the event.

    And if you are careful; you also realize that the verse and chapter numbers were not written by Paul.
    What we saw as I Thess 4-5 or II Thess 1-2; Paul saw as unique full passages discussing both the just and the unjust; at the time of the Lord's return.

    So we know both are involved; those who wait for Christ will find their redemption; and those who walk in darkness, with be destroyed in His flaming fire.

  3. #63
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Perhaps Jeff Weeder's other scriptures didn't prove it; what about the apostle Paul's teaching related to Jesus' return (Parousia)?

    "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."
    "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. "
    "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. "
    "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming[Parousia]. "

    "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? "
    "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"
    "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:"
    "But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. "
    "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. "
    "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. "
    "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. "
    "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"
    "It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:"
    "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. "

    "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed"
    "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. "
    "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. "
    "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up"


    Paul's teaching seems very convincing to me.
    I think I can trust Paul, that at the Return of Christ, Christians will receive their spiritual bodies.
    1 Corinthians 15:23 does tell us that Jesus will raise Christians at His Return. Paul does NOT say all Christians and we can easily read in Revelation 20:4, which Christians they will be.
    Vere 24 goes on the say; Then comes the end, when Jesus delivers back the Kingdom to the Father, AFTER disposing every authority and power. Including Death.
    So there is no immortality before the GWTJ and the only people brought back to life, just like Lazarus was, are those killed for their faith during the Great Tribulation; the final 3 1/2 years of this age.

  4. #64
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Divad,

    The question you are asking is 'begging an assumption'. Do you realize it?

    You are begging the question of, 'if one passage discusses some parts of an event', but doesn't include all details of an event that other similar passage also discuss, then we must exclude some of the details from the event.

    Just imaging what would occur to scripture at the morning tomb, or at golgotha, or in the two Bethlehem narratives, if we expected all details, to be included to decide they are the same events?

    I Thess 4 focuses on believers at Christs return.
    It doesn't go into details about the resurrection of unbelievers.
    However; other passages elsewhere do.

    Like this one:

    John 5:28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. "


    and this one:

    Acts 24:15
    "And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. "


    Seeing them together, we can see Paul just didn't discuss the details of the wicked people being resurrected in I Thess 4; but the other passages show they will too.

    Very simply scriptures to follow.

    They also show us this begging the question issue, we don't want to get into.

    Neither of the two latter verses mention 'changing from corruptible to incorruptible' or a 'trumpet sound'; or Christ returning from Heaven.
    But we know from other passages, that those details also are apart of the event.

    And if you are careful; you also realize that the verse and chapter numbers were not written by Paul.
    What we saw as I Thess 4-5 or II Thess 1-2; Paul saw as unique full passages discussing both the just and the unjust; at the time of the Lord's return.

    So we know both are involved; those who wait for Christ will find their redemption; and those who walk in darkness, with be destroyed in His flaming fire.
    Very well said David.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  5. #65
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    The judgment of the righteous, the term for that judgment is totally different than the GWTJ. It is called the "bema" judgment in The bema seat was where rewards were handed out during games and events. In the passages in the Epistles that speak of coming under judgment for sin, "bema" is not used.

    The GWTJ is more prosecutorial in process. None of the folks that experience this one are said to go on into eternal life with Yeshua in Revelation 20. I am convinced it is a case being made against the unrighteous showing that YHVH has every right to condemn them. It is proving the prosecutorial case that one is guilty. They are judged on their works which proves they are not righteous unto eternal life, and if there is any doubt, the book of life is opened to make the case against them air tight. The passage states nothing about anyone being acquitted. Only sentenced to the lake of fire.

    The redeemed on the other hand have passed from death to life. They have been justified and there is no longer any condemnation (Romans 8:1). So it would seem a waste of time to put them thru a prosecutorial process as if they are fit for condemnation. Yeshua has justified those who have placed their trust in Him. All charges have been paid in full and the defendant is free to go, so to speak. The plain, simple truth of the Gospel. Reconciliation with the One eternal God thru the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua for all those who simply acknowledge and place their trust and hope in Him.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

  6. #66
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    All charges have been paid in full and the defendant is free to go, so to speak.

    This is true, but first the court must sit.
    What better place than the GWT will the whole of creation get to see the Sons of God revealed.


    Rom 8
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

    20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

    22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    All charges have been paid in full and the defendant is free to go, so to speak.

    This is true, but first the court must sit.
    What better place than the GWT will the whole of creation get to see the Sons of God revealed.


    Rom 8
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

    20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

    22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  7. #67
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    All charges have been paid in full and the defendant is free to go, so to speak.

    This is true, but first the court must sit.
    What better place than the GWT will the whole of creation get to see the Sons of God revealed.


    Rom 8
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

    20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

    22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  8. #68
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    The judgment of the righteous, the term for that judgment is totally different than the GWTJ. It is called the "bema" judgment in The bema seat was where rewards were handed out during games and events. In the passages in the Epistles that speak of coming under judgment for sin, "bema" is not used.

    The GWTJ is more prosecutorial in process. None of the folks that experience this one are said to go on into eternal life with Yeshua in Revelation 20. I am convinced it is a case being made against the unrighteous showing that YHVH has every right to condemn them. It is proving the prosecutorial case that one is guilty. They are judged on their works which proves they are not righteous unto eternal life, and if there is any doubt, the book of life is opened to make the case against them air tight. The passage states nothing about anyone being acquitted. Only sentenced to the lake of fire.

    The redeemed on the other hand have passed from death to life. They have been justified and there is no longer any condemnation (Romans 8:1). So it would seem a waste of time to put them thru a prosecutorial process as if they are fit for condemnation. Yeshua has justified those who have placed their trust in Him. All charges have been paid in full and the defendant is free to go, so to speak. The plain, simple truth of the Gospel. Reconciliation with the One eternal God thru the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua for all those who simply acknowledge and place their trust and hope in Him.
    Bema was simply a raised platform from where pronouncements were made from.

    There is no NT or OT precidence to distinguish it as a place only of rewards.
    Quite the opposite, John uses the term Bema to describe when Pilate judged and condemned Jesus to death.


    John 19:13 “When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat[greek: Bema G968]...Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.”



    Every single human being will be raised, and given an account on the Final day of Judgment (GWT).

    Adam, Abraham, Daniel, and David and you and I will all be in the uncountable throng on judgement day, according to the scriptures.


    "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

    "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment"

    "Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. "

    "who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work"

    ""Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people."

    "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

    "the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. "

    "the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; "

    "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. "

    "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ..[B]how shall God judge the world[/B "

    "the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath"


    God's word above tells you who will be there giving an account to Him on Judgment Day.

  9. #69
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    This is true, but first the court must sit.
    What better place than the GWT will the whole of creation get to see the Sons of God revealed.


    Rom 8
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

    20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

    22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

    But again, the judgement seat that the redeemed face has nothing to to with the GWTJ. The court may be seated as you suggest, but the redeemed are not even charged so as to bring them into the GWTJ court! How many times are you not charged with a capital offense and yet still brought to trial for it? The whole idea of the redeemed even facing the GWTJ is devoid of all reason. At worse, it implies that we have not passed from death to life as Paul taught and we are still under condemnation.

    Our adoption as sons is when we are transformed and are gathered to be with Yeshua. And that is based on justification thru Him. Not a trial. We are saved (justification). We are being saved (sanctification), and we will be saved (glorification).
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

  10. #70
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Bema was simply a raised platform from where pronouncements were made from.

    There is no NT or OT precidence to distinguish it as a place only of rewards.
    Quite the opposite, John uses the term Bema to describe when Pilate judged and condemned Jesus to death.


    John 19:13 “When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat[greek: Bema G968]...Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.”



    Every single human being will be raised, and given an account on the Final day of Judgment (GWT).

    Adam, Abraham, Daniel, and David and you and I will all be in the uncountable throng on judgement day, according to the scriptures.


    "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

    "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment"

    "Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. "

    "who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work"

    ""Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people."

    "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

    "the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. "

    "the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; "

    "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. "

    "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ..[B]how shall God judge the world[/B "

    "the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath"


    God's word above tells you who will be there giving an account to Him on Judgment Day.
    The reference to Pilate still is not a judgement seat as in a court of law.

    And since you like to mince words, there is no mention that the GWTJ is the judgement seat of Yeshua. They are standing before YHVH, not Yeshua. Oops.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

  11. #71
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    The whole idea of the redeemed even facing the GWTJ is devoid of all reason. At worse, it implies that we have not passed from death to life as Paul taught and we are still under condemnation.
    I gave you my reason.
    And yes we have passed from death to life already and do not come under judgment thanks to what he did for us by writing our name in his book. We are still there as a testimony before them of Gods righteous judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    The whole idea of the redeemed even facing the GWTJ is devoid of all reason. At worse, it implies that we have not passed from death to life as Paul taught and we are still under condemnation.
    I gave you my reason.
    And yes we have passed from death to life already and do not come under judgment thanks to what he did for us by writing our name in his book. We are still there as a testimony before them of Gods righteous judgment.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  12. #72
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    The whole idea of the redeemed even facing the GWTJ is devoid of all reason. At worse, it implies that we have not passed from death to life as Paul taught and we are still under condemnation.
    I gave you my reason.
    And yes we have passed from death to life already and do not come under judgment thanks to what he did for us by writing our name in his book. We are still there as a testimony before them of Gods righteous judgment.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  13. #73
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    I gave you my reason.
    And yes we have passed from death to life already and do not come under judgment thanks to what he did for us by writing our name in his book. We are still there as a testimony before them of Gods righteous judgment.


    I gave you my reason.
    And yes we have passed from death to life already and do not come under judgment thanks to what he did for us by writing our name in his book. We are still there as a testimony before them of Gods righteous judgment.
    Please provide verses that support the redeemed are participants in the GWTJ in any capacity.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

  14. #74
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Since the text of Revelation doesn't mention the redeemed or even Yeshua for that matter when it comes to the GWTJ. It is the judgement seat of the Almighty. The GWTJ is referenced in Daniel...

    Daniel 7:9-10 I watched till thrones were put in place,
    And the Ancient of Days was seated;
    His garment was white as snow,
    And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
    His throne was a fiery flame,
    Its wheels a burning fire;
    10 A fiery stream issued
    And came forth from before Him.
    A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
    Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
    The court was seated,
    And the books were opened.

    Just like Revelation 20, there is no reference to the Messiah sitting in judgement nor the redeemed participating.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

  15. #75
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    Please provide verses that support the redeemed are participants in the GWTJ in any capacity.
    All judgment has been given unto the Son. Jn 5
    God has fixed a day...act 17

    Rev 22
    12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

    Matt 25
    31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne
    32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

    Jesus clearly presides over the final judgment to throw into the fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    Please provide verses that support the redeemed are participants in the GWTJ in any capacity.
    All judgment has been given unto the Son. Jn 5
    God has fixed a day...act 17

    Rev 22
    12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

    Matt 25
    31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne
    32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

    Jesus clearly presides over the final judgment to throw into the fire.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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